Those incredible disappearing Bank Guarantee documents

[PaddyJoe]

Back on the 12th June Enda was being assailed at Leader's Question Time by Micheal Martin who was pressing him on bank debt.
Kenny responded with what at the time seemed to be an unplanned retort referring to the lack of documents relevant to the bank guarantee in the Department of the Taoiseach.

He said: “In respect of the bank guarantee – which you completed at 4am in the morning – nobody knows what you said. There is no file in Department of Taoiseach on this.
“It’s either shredded or disposed of, dispatched of. In other words, the government has no evidence of discussions that took place, of what you said,” he added, referring to Martin who was then Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Patrick Honohan in his report on the banking crisis in May 2010 also commented on a lack of documentation.

“A detailed review of the ensuing discussions is hampered by the absence of an extensive written record of what transpired,”

The following day a spokesman for Kenny said that he was "hypothesising"

Remarkably, there was no actual investigation conducted by the Coalition on the existence of the file either.

"Whether there was or there wasn't (a file), there isn't now. I don't know what has happened in relation to finding a particular file," the spokesman said.

"Upon taking up office, there was an effort to find out what happened that night. There is no file in the Department of An Taoiseach in relation to the bank guarantee."

When questioned if Mr McCarthy or former Department of Finance secretary general Kevin Cardiff were asked about the decision when the Government took office, the spokesman said: "I don't know."

Mr McCarthy and Mr Cardiff have since moved on from their positions.

Mr McCarthy retired while Mr Cardiff took up a post at the European Court of Auditors.

Kenny himself backed down on the shredding claim on the 26th June in a Dail answer to FF TD Michael McGrath.

"I did not intend to suggest that I have evidence that documentation was destroyed or otherwise removed," said Mr Kenny.

"My remarks were intended to highlight what I regard as a remarkably small volume of documentation held in my department from that night."

Once again the controversy came up in the Dail today as Kenny replied to Martin during Questions to the Taoiseach.
However, there is still no sign that serving or retired civil servants have been questioned on the matter. Surely its time they were and this can be resolved once and for all.

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...d-3137484.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...ed-198876.html
Question to the Taoiseach today:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWqWjIBAMmM&feature=player_embedded"]Taoiseach Enda Kenny challenged by Michéal Martin over Bank Guarantee remarks - YouTube[/ame]

[Dr. FIVE]

At it in the Seanad again today. Thomas Byrne claims these are the documents an Taoiseach cannot find

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp.../document1.htm

[PaddyJoe]

At it in the Seanad again today. Thomas Byrne claims these are the documents an Taoiseach cannot find

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp.../document1.htm

If Byrne knew anything about it he'd know that those documents were all from Finance. There has been no relevant release of docs from the Dept of the Taoiseach.

[Dr. FIVE]

See your first four words

[Dr. FIVE]

It only adds to the intrigue that Fine Gael needed to go looking for them and the not inconsiderable amount of insiders in their ranks weren't already well in the loop.
08-11 is a long time for nitty gritty to kept in the dark.

Bruton, Dukes etc

[Holly]

Since Enda Kenny had no reservation about ordering every member of the Fine Gwael Party to vote for the bank guarantee without seeing memoranda of any meetings, why would he want to see them now?

[C. Flower]

An F o I request has turned up the information that Kenny's Department has 17 files on the Guarantee, dated September 30th, and a number of them have been released - to Fianna Fail.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-205691.html

It seems probable the Fianna Fail always knew they were there, and that Kenny's claim that a file had been shredded was a Kennyism (aka a "made up story")

The Taoiseach has been accused of misleading the Dáil after it emerged files about the night of the bank guarantee do exist within his department.
In June, Enda Kenny told the Dáil there was "no file" in his department relating to the 2008 decision to guarantee the banks to the tune of €440bn.

But a Freedom of Information request submitted by Fianna Fáil shows there are at least 17 files in Mr Kenny’s department about the bank guarantee dated Sept 30, 2008.

The bank guarantee was approved by Brian Cowen’s government over the phone in what has become known as an "incorporeal" meeting.

The files in the Department of Taoiseach are listed as notes on the decision sought in the meeting, the government decision of the meeting, minutes of the government meeting, notes for the then taoiseach’s use, and memos for government and other documents.

But while it gave a full schedule of the documents in response to the request, the department refused to release 14 of the 17 files.

Mr Kenny originally claimed in the Dáil on Jun 12 that there was "no file in the Department of Taoiseach on this". He also claimed files on the guarantee were "either shredded or disposed of".

Later that evening, his spokesman said: "Whether there was or there wasn’t [a file], there isn’t now."

However, under pressure on the issue later in the month, Mr Kenny was forced to clarify the remarks.

The Taoiseach said his comments on Jun 12 were simply to "highlight the remarkably small volume of documentation held in my department from that night".

I believe that others suggested in the past that the meeting was unminuted.

[barrym]

[QUOTE=C. Flower;272134]It seems probable the Fianna Fail always knew they were there,


- so why don't they release the info??

I don't think 'notes' are minutes.

In general terms very little is now 'minuted' because of the FoI....

[DCon]

Moran tells PAC to take a run and jump

A major stand-off has emerged between Finance Minister Michael Noonan's top official John Moran and the Dail's most powerful committee, the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), over his refusal to release key documents relating to the night of the infamous 2008 bank guarantee.

The PAC has been attempting to begin a banking inquiry into the night of the guarantee, but Mr Moran has said he "does not believe it's possible" to release the documents as they are privileged.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29210727.html

[ang]

Moran tells PAC to take a run and jump



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-29210727.html

I thought Enda said there were no documents ?

[DCon]

I thought Enda said there were no documents ?

Ah now, we can't be believing anything Enda says. Where would that lead us?

[Simonsays]

I thought Enda said there were no documents ?

No he didn't. He said there were simply less documents than a decision of that magnitude should be expected to provide. In the civil service, files are literally kept on everything and every scrap of paper associated with it should be put in the file(s). Anyone who does research in the National Archives on any aspect of the state will have access to those files after the thirty year rule, unless they are held back for security purposes. I have used the National Archives frequently in doing research and there are files on the minutest things. For example, there is a large file on the birth dates of European and world royals, simply because heads of state are required as part of the diplomatic niceties to send birthday wishes to the royals worldwide. So if you want to know what the birth date of some minor Japanese royal is, it will be in there.

So you would expect in thirty years time when those papers from Taoiseach and Finance come over to the National Archives that when you request them massive big lumps of files should arrive, filled to overflowing with sheets of paper, minutes of meetings, copies of cabinet briefing papers, copies of notes prepared by civil servants, questions asked by ministers, answers to queries, etc etc. They wheel these things around in the National Archive on trolleys. Sometimes you ask for a file and a file containing a single page might arrive (that is how large a file on moving an individual picture of George III from the Áras in 1947 was). Other times you ask for a while and the guy wheels up the trolley to you and hands you a big box or two. I would expect for something like the guarantee for the guy to arrive with a trolley load of files, or rather a single file with vast sub-files - so you get something like (I don't what numbering system modern files use, but say) Taoiseach R20473/2008 you are told there are sub-parts A to F, and it would take you days to read through them all. But from what Kenny has said it seems the file or files is/are pretty small, suspiciously small indeed, way way smaller than should be the case. And his question is simply 'why is this file so small? Where are all the other documents that one would expect to be in it? What does a file that should run to 200+ pages run to less than 20? Where did the rest go?' It is a fair question to ask.

[DCon]

Enda clearly said "no file". He was referring to the Department of Taoiseach though, so was likely politicking if he knew there was a file in the Department of Finance. Looks good berating FF on the news and all

He said: “In respect of the bank guarantee – which you completed at 4am in the morning – nobody knows what you said. There is no file in Department of Taoiseach on this.

“It’s either shredded or disposed of, dispatched of. In other words, the government has no evidence of discussions that took place, of what you said,” he added, referring to Martin who was then Minister for Foreign Affairs.

http://www.thejournal.ie/shredded-ba...84682-Jun2012/

[disability student]

Dept of Finance has files going back to January of 2008 as they had a unit tracking the problems of the banks, which was then chaired by Cardiff.

What was quite unusual was that FF govt made a decision overnight & then they issued a statement at 7am prior to the opening of stock markets.

That indicates that they have information at hand or in their brains for a long time since January which enables them to make a quick decision. Other scenario suggested was that Cowen & Co doesn't keep notes mostly was verbal which was impossible to track it all down.

Think files were scattered somewhere as it would need an researcher to tie all the loose ends which make up the whole picture.

He aka Tommy o Brien is a FG supporter on the other site as he's usually protective of FG.