Another referendum on EU fiscal convergence in 2012?

[C. Flower]

I know the recent PN farce was just a charade. Behind the scenes there must be a fair bit of begging for a break on the PNs going on.

Enda got his ass handed to him when he went out all cocky just after being elected and came home with his tail between his legs. For the Govt the strategy is to play along and hope for a break when conditions ease. They have to get something from the EU before the next cycle of elections start or they will be out on their ears.

Their very political survival depends on getting a break on the PNs. There has to be back channel attempts to secure a deal on them.

There was an update yesterday on the Promissory Notes - IMF Conference Call - questions and answers -Q "where are the P Ns ?" A "between a rock and a hard place."

http://www.imf.org/external/np/tr/2012/tr061512.htm

[Apjp]

You can't, however, just wish wages away.

No but you can vote freedom away for a few false promises based on exploiting your fear. Anyone who thinks Ireland is a democracy is deluded. A country where voting is based on fear and in which the media manipulates that fear is tyrannical. We just handed Merkel and her commission/ecb banker buddies the power to put her hands in our pockets forever and control our affairs and all people care about are ******* scaremongering arguments about atms.

[Kitty O'Shea]

I don't believe that our C.T is safe either, all they have to do is frame another treaty using the same threats over funding and wages only this time to change the C.T. The government don't seem to read or comprehend the treaties anyway so it'll be yes all the way.
I am waiting for the backlash re the E.S.M treaty to unfold when government ministers wake up to full realisation of what we signed ourselves into.
If government even dreams of cutting back on JSA, ye will know who I am, coz I'll be the one chaining myself to rails of Leinster house ;-)

[PaddyJoe]

Enda acknowledges that there will be further referenda on the way to fiscal convergence:

TAOISEACH ENDA Kenny has not ruled out another EU referendum. He told the Dáil “if we proceed down the road of eventual fiscal union, clearly there will be implications in the context of new treaties”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318257892.html

[C. Flower]

Enda acknowledges that there will be further referenda on the way to fiscal convergence:

It's definite, so. And he assumes it would pass.

[Baron von Biffo]

It's definite, so. And he assumes it would pass.

Given our past performance at referenda he could be reasonably confident that we'd vote yes to sacrifice our first-born to Moloch if the government said it was for jobs.

[C. Flower]

Given our past performance at referenda he could be reasonably confident that we'd vote yes to sacrifice our first-born to Moloch if the government said it was for jobs.

It will be the end of the era bourgeois democracy in Europe, if we allow it.
Jobs will not necessarily come with salaries attached.

This is not a benign proposal for a "united states of Europe." It is a proposal to place political and economic power into the hands of a tiny unelected cabal, who represent finance capital, and who view the peoples of Europe as the means of generating the wherewithal to replenish bank and bond profits.

[PaddyJoe]

Some thoughts from Barrister Ronan McCrea who lectures in EU and constitutional law at University College London in the IT today.
Quick summary:
You know the way we're going to move to banking, fiscal and political union over the next few years? Well, this crack where we have referenda on changes to the constitution is going to be a real pain in the ass. You know why?

The more frequently referendums are held, the lower the turnout tends to be. There is a very significant risk that, in the context of low turnouts, referendums will be decided by crankish and extremist elements whose supporters tend to be more motivated about going to the polls.

This really can't be allowed.
How about we have just one referendum which gives the government the power to do anything they like? Once the government have set up this fiscal, banking and political union maybe we could have another referendum to say we're happy with it?

This approach involves a degree of medium-term trust in our elected leaders. They have not always shown themselves to be worthy of such trust. However, the alternative scenario of numerous, frequent and politically paralysing referendum campaigns for years on end is surely one that should be avoided.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318456353.html

[Baron von Biffo]

Some thoughts from Barrister Ronan McCrea who lectures in EU and constitutional law at University College London in the IT today.
Quick summary:
You know the way we're going to move to banking, fiscal and political union over the next few years? Well, this crack where we have referenda on changes to the constitution is going to be a real pain in the ass. You know why?
The more frequently referendums are held, the lower the turnout tends to be. There is a very significant risk that, in the context of low turnouts, referendums will be decided by crankish and extremist elements whose supporters tend to be more motivated about going to the polls.
This really can't be allowed.
How about we have just one referendum which gives the government the power to do anything they like? Once the government have set up this fiscal, banking and political union maybe we could have another referendum to say we're happy with it?
This approach involves a degree of medium-term trust in our elected leaders. They have not always shown themselves to be worthy of such trust. However, the alternative scenario of numerous, frequent and politically paralysing referendum campaigns for years on end is surely one that should be avoided.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318456353.html

FG family?

[C. Flower]

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/euro...rporation-tax/

This is politically interesting. As is the fact that on the " two pack" we voted on last week, the hard core austerity report ( Gauzes) , only five members of the EPP abstained.
Four of them were the Fine Gael MEPS. Question is, why?

What I find politically interesting is the lack of reporting and discussion on this and similar measures in the last year that have handed over (or that aim to hand over) matters democratically controlled at national level, to undemocratic central EU institutions. It makes a mockery of democracy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...s-spreads.html

[morticia]

I am beginning, just beginning, to realise that freedom can be defined as the absence of debt. At least in part.

[PaddyJoe]

Brendan Halligan of the Institute of International and European Affairs would like to see an end to referendums on Europe. Decisions on Europe are better left to the Dail, apparently.

Mr Halligan said he believed a plethora of new treaties could be expected over the next decade, along with a plethora of referendums.

“The odds of one being lost, I suggest, are unacceptably high given that our economic survival is so utterly if not completely dependent on our continuing membership of the European Union.”

He said the planned constitutional convention should be tasked with coming up with a formula that would express Ireland’s political commitment to membership of the EU as an “enduring policy choice”. If such a proposal was accepted by the people it would leave ratification of future EU treaties in the hands of Dáil Éireann, he said during a discussion session entitled “Ireland and the EU” yesterday afternoon.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...322139064.html

[DCon]

Barosso wants more Europe

European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso has said EU institutions need more power over member states to fight the crisis.

They also come at a time when Barroso and other top EU officials are drafting proposals for deeper integration which may lead to a debate on EU treaty change in December - a divisive issue, with many EU capitals wary of opening the Pandora's Box on reform.

http://euobserver.com/institutional/117398

[DCon]

More Barosso

Mr Barroso says closer integration is about creating "a federation of nation states, not a super state." There are a few audible groans from the audience.

Union is about countries being better equipped to control their own fate, he says, and is designed to work with member states, not against them.

"In these times of anxiety it will be a mistake to leave Europe's fate to popularists and nationalists," he says.

Creating this federation of nation states will ultimately require a new treaty. We are all aware of how difficult treaty changes have become, but a deep and genuine union can only be completed with changes to the treaties

.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/d...isis-live.html

[Greengoddess]

There will be proposals from the commission for this Treaty before next 2014 election. So as to have a debate.
Sparkes will fly between MS and MEPS.......
In some circumstances.