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Thread: PW Euros 2012 thread

  1. #256
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    The Euros, which started out as the European Nations Championship in 1960 was first seen as a major competition in 1972. In that final in Wembley, which saw West Germany beat the Soviet Union 3-0, it was evident that the German team was a bit special. One tends to think of German teams of the time as being somewhat mechanical and efficient rather than a team containing players with the capacity for breath-taking brilliance but that team contained Paul Breittner and Günther Netzer. Netzer was simply amazing and was a midfielder in a class of his own. Anybody who saw him in that final was really privileged. He was also an extremely intelligent individual and was a mass of contradictions. He played for a great Borussia Moenchengladbach team in the early 70s and when he indicated that he was moving to Real Madrid at the end of the 1972-73 season, he was put on the bench for the German Cup final. With the score tied at the beginning of the second period of extra time, he substituted himself without the manager knowing about it and promptly scored the winner. He was also a clever businessman. He was real tabloid photo material with his flowing blonde hair and was often photographed with models yes has been married to the same woman since he was 21. He owned a chain of bars in the Hamburg-Bremen area yet never touched alcohol until he retired from professional football. He had a Ferrari parked outside a nightclub he owned before he took the driving test. Nowadays he is a multi-millionaire businessman who bought and sold the television rights for the last two World Cups. Clever boy.

    Ajax did not so much as export the idea, as you say fluffy, as Cruyff implementing it in Barcelona. Times change and this Spanish team play a different way to the Dutch team of the 1970s because football has developed since then. The philosophy is the same but the implementation is different because it has to adapt to the changes elsewhere since the 1970s. But there are several constant principles in both, the most important of which are retention of possession and comfort on the ball. To look at Ireland and England was to look at football from the stone age, both teams extremely uncomfortable on the ball , treating it as an enemy and both teams giving possession away cheaply. The English Premier League is, in my opinion, one of the worst in Europe and I would only pay money to see Arsenal or Swansea. The Swansea v Arsenal match last season which Swansea won 3-2 was, in my opinion, technically the best match of the entire season. But I ask you, is there anything worse than watching a match between Stoke and Blackburn????

    You are right in saying Spain had the technical skills but it had brought them the European Nations Cup as it was then in 1964 when this competition was not important. Other than that, Spain has always underachieved. But the changes brought to Barca by Cruyff, van Gaal and Rijkaard, developed further by Guardiola, has given Spain the nucleus of a great national team. That is it Barca football, which is Cruyff's football which Spain play, is a slap in the face for that dreadful fraud Mourinho, whose tactics I find even worse than van Maarwijk's. Real Madrid's players have to play Barca football to get into the team. Alonso does this brilliantly and Casillas is a goalkeeper but the rest must wonder at times.

    The evolution, in my opinion, is the use of space created between the halfway line and the opponents penalty area. The Dutch team of the 70s did not develop this to the extent that this Barcelona/Spanish team has. Barcelona/Spain use the full extent of the geometrical potential, varying the rate of passing, velocity of passes, the number of players in movement at any given time and the number of options available to the player in possession. Because the player in possession is, in this system, one of the three main midfield players (Iniesta, Alonso/Messi, Xavi)it requires the "striker" (Villa) to drag the defence all over the place to create the space necessary for this to flourish. Without this space, Barca/Spain are posed a problem. Chelsea managed it against Barca (with tons of luck) and Portugal managed it against Spain in the semi-final to an extent. Torres does not fit into this Spanish team in that he is totally different to David Villa. But I wrote about Torres earlier and I consider him to be a great team player.

    The evolution therefore, in my opinion, fluffy, is in the creation of space, the use of space and the much greater exploitation of the geometrical possibilities which this development affords. Spain have taken total football to a new level. So it is an evolution, not a revolution.
    Concise analysis there and very true. I cant expand on it as you have put it very well! Just to perhaps add on a little note do you think with Spain that Iniesta is the key man for Spain? He seemed to create a lot of space for Spain when they were on the attack and moved quite fluidly on the pitch during the game. Zidane was a player in the same mould was he not?
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  2. #257
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    Concise analysis there and very true. I cant expand on it as you have put it very well! Just to perhaps add on a little note do you think with Spain that Iniesta is the key man for Spain? He seemed to create a lot of space for Spain when they were on the attack and moved quite fluidly on the pitch during the game. Zidane was a player in the same mould was he not?

    Iniesta, Xavi and Alonso are all equally important for Spain because they all know where the other two are when in possession. Villa up front is important because he is constantly pulling the two central defenders around the place out of position. If you look at Spain carefully, you will see that a lot of the time, Alonso, Iniesta and Xavi appear to be not passing to anyone specifically but passing into space for a team-mate to run on to. As in Spain´s second goal scored by Jordi Alba. The ball was passed at a specific pace for Alba to run on to. And boy! Did he run!

    Zidane could have easily fitted in to this system. There are some players who just have a level of sublime skill and he was one of them.
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  3. #258
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    What other players IYO would have fitted into that system?
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    What other players IYO would have fitted into that system?
    Basically any player with the technical ability to pass a ball with varying pace, with accuracy and with speed of thought while retaining the spatial awareness required to know where teammates and opponents were moving while these passes are being executed. A lot of information to process within fractions of a second.

    So who in, for example, the EPL in recent times could have fitted into Barcelona/Cruyff's system based on the criteria above?

    Maybe Paul Scholes, with a lot of training ground practice. Gerrard possibly. And, of course, a personal favourite of mine, Didi Hamann.
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  5. #260
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Basically any player with the technical ability to pass a ball with varying pace, with accuracy and with speed of thought while retaining the spatial awareness required to know where teammates and opponents were moving while these passes are being executed. A lot of information to process within fractions of a second.

    So who in, for example, the EPL in recent times could have fitted into Barcelona/Cruyff's system based on the criteria above?

    Maybe Paul Scholes, with a lot of training ground practice. Gerrard possibly. And, of course, a personal favourite of mine, Didi Hamann.
    Didi Hamman! I would have said perhaps Figo at his peak alongside Zidance not too sure on the Hamman front mate! Gerard is more of an anchor man though is he not, he plays more defensively rather than creating opportunity up front I thought
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  6. #261
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Would "Chippy" Brady have fitted in? He was a decent passer of the ball as far as I can recall.

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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    Didi Hamman! I would have said perhaps Figo at his peak alongside Zidance not too sure on the Hamman front mate! Gerard is more of an anchor man though is he not, he plays more defensively rather than creating opportunity up front I thought
    Go back over the Champions League Final of 2005. Liverpool v AC Milan. Liverpool started with Gerrard in front of the back four in the anchor position. Kaka destroyed Liverpool in the first half and were leading 3-0 at half time.

    Gerrard cannot play in the position effectively. Harry Kewell (!) was on and looked lost. At half time Benitez made the most effective substitution in Champions League history, in my opinion. He took off Kewell, put on Hamann to anchor things in front of the back four and pushed Gerrard up to play in the hole behind the attack.

    Hamann neutralised Kaka, steadied the defence and Gerrard played in his most effective position. The rest is history. For me, the man of the match in that Final was Hamann and he missed the entire first half. I have never seen one player have such an effect in such an important match. It helped, of course, that Didi Hamann is one of the most intelligent players ever to play in the EPL. And he scored the last goal at the "old" Wembley, precipitating the resignation of Kevin Keegan as England manager. Influential, guy, Didi Hamann.

    By the way, I am certainly not a Liverpool supporter, before you think that this may be influencing my thinking on this!
    Last edited by Slim Buddha; 10-07-2012 at 04:34 AM.
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Would "Chippy" Brady have fitted in? He was a decent passer of the ball as far as I can recall.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=v5hdtAaJOz8#!
    Good call, Sam. Brady was a great player in that he moved to Italy and adapted to a totally different style of play and succeeded in it after a stellar career with Arsenal. Ian Rush, by contrast, was great for Liverpool but flopped at Juventus.

    Actually, it is Rush who is quoted as saying "Playing for Juventus was like playing in a foreign country".

    Brady had both the skill and intelligence to adapt to any system and I am sure he would have fitted into the Cruyff way of playing.
    Last edited by Slim Buddha; 10-07-2012 at 04:31 AM.
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Why do people not drink in the pub more, when in a recession, unemployed and paying bubble level mortgages??

    Page 21 of the Indo reports that one of the country’s best-known publicans, Charlie Chawke, yesterday blamed the Irish football team’s “pathetic” performance against Croatia for the Euros being a flop for his pub business. Mr Chawke’s eight pubs recorded a combined turnover of about €15m last year, and yesterday he said that the European Football Championships resulted in revenues being 20pc down at his pubs during the course of the competition. The Adare native said: “The team was so pathetic against Croatia that people lost faith.” Publicans across the country had counted upon the Euros providing a significant boost to business, but Mr Chawke said: “They were a major disappointment. People didn’t flock to the pub as we thought they would and they watched the games at home. The Euros didn’t work for us at all. It upset our business.”
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DCon View Post
    Why do people not drink in the pub more, when in a recession, unemployed and paying bubble level mortgages??



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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    One notable feature of the Euro 2012 finals was the fact that the players who shone were coming to the end of their careers or happy with their clubs in that they are going nowhere. With, of course, the exception of Torres, which is a special case.

    But there was nobody young, new and "unknown" coming through for whom Euro 2012 was a shop window. I suppose more comprehensive scouting systems unearth young players sooner and if a talent hitherto unknown is unearthed, it will be more likely to happen at a World Cup than a Euro championship, like what happened in 2002 when Senegal beat France.

    It was the WOrld Cup in 2010 which provided the shop window for Ozil and Kheidera of Germany which saw Real Madrid snap both players up but it is happening less frequently. Which is a pity.
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    One notable feature of the Euro 2012 finals was the fact that the players who shone were coming to the end of their careers or happy with their clubs in that they are going nowhere. With, of course, the exception of Torres, which is a special case.

    But there was nobody young, new and "unknown" coming through for whom Euro 2012 was a shop window. I suppose more comprehensive scouting systems unearth young players sooner and if a talent hitherto unknown is unearthed, it will be more likely to happen at a World Cup than a Euro championship, like what happened in 2002 when Senegal beat France.

    It was the WOrld Cup in 2010 which provided the shop window for Ozil and Kheidera of Germany which saw Real Madrid snap both players up but it is happening less frequently. Which is a pity.
    That lad for Croatia Mandzukic is in big demand . You are right though Pirlo who was at the end of his career probably thought he was going out to enjoy himself and not worry about the whole "will he light up the world cup or not" scenario. Even when on the losing side he had a great sense of gamesmanship and sportsmanship and congratulated the Spanish players at the end of the game. Portugals players in their own league put themselves n the shop window for definite.
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    That lad for Croatia Mandzukic is in big demand . You are right though Pirlo who was at the end of his career probably thought he was going out to enjoy himself and not worry about the whole "will he light up the world cup or not" scenario. Even when on the losing side he had a great sense of gamesmanship and sportsmanship and congratulated the Spanish players at the end of the game. Portugals players in their own league put themselves n the shop window for definite.
    Probably true about Portugal but let's see if there is much transfer activity there. You haven't come back at me about Didi Hamann, fluffy. ;-`)
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Buddha View Post
    Probably true about Portugal but let's see if there is much transfer activity there. You haven't come back at me about Didi Hamann, fluffy. ;-`)
    hehe! Hamman I never really rated highly. He scored something like 8 goals in 190+ games for Liverpool. A player if creative would have done so much better than that. Zindane playing for Juventus scored 24 goals in nearly as many games!
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    Default Re: PW Euros 2012 thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fluffybiscuits View Post
    hehe! Hamman I never really rated highly. He scored something like 8 goals in 190+ games for Liverpool. A player if creative would have done so much better than that. Zindane playing for Juventus scored 24 goals in nearly as many games!
    Hamann and Zidane played in different positions. A better comparison is Claude Makelele. Ask knowledgable Liverpool fans what they think of Didi Hamann and you will be surprised at the response. They will certainly refer to the 2005 Champions League Final. He is also revered at Bayern Munich.

    When people talk about the sublime skills of Zidane,they tend to forget the wheelbarrow of red cards he amassed in his career. He could "mix it" as they say and the manner of his exit in his last game confirms this. With Zizou, the sublime skills were always there but the red mist was never far away. Mind you, he was from Marseilles, so this is hardly surprising
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