The Irish Came From Africa!

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...316320037.html

DRM would be sick into their pints of Dutch Gold if they read this . Research has shown that Irish and other Celtic peoples people may have direct ancestry from North Africa with Berber and Tuareg DNA. Also Sean Nos singing has a lot of similarities to Arab culture as well in a recent study done. Makes for good reading.

I remember reading years ago that the first Irish came from Egypt and were the De Danan and called Ireland "Banba". A friend of my parents has a piece which she found near her house in excavations that the national history museum said was of Egyptian origin. They didnt buy it off her but she keeps it locked away safe. Evidence perhaps of Egyptians in Ireland?

[Iolo]

This idea must have been around a fair old time, I think. I remember my Mother telling me we were closely related to the Berbers, which she must have got from her course in Aberystwyth way back.

[jmcc]

Lots of jumping from A to Z there without any evidence. Also there's a curious linguistic connection in Irish with the North Coast of Africa - how do you say "Black man" in Irish?

Regards...jmcc

[fluffybiscuits]

Lots of jumping from A to Z there without any evidence. Also there's a curious linguistic connection in Irish with the North Coast of Africa - how do you say "Black man" in Irish?

Regards...jmcc

Well the article does say

The Berber and Tuareg heritage now showing up in Scottish genes is just another support for the abundant “Celtic” associations he found and filmed in north Africa, in song and singers, archaeological monuments, manuscript decoration and jewellery design. Such treasures as the Ardagh Chalice and Book of Durrow show intricate affinity with Islamic decorative motifs and crafts, and Coptic Christianity from Egypt left material traces well ahead of St Patrick.

Ireland and Scottish people being closely related by extension would mean that some of our heritage must be North African?

[jmcc]

Well the article does say

]The Berber and Tuareg heritage now showing up in Scottish genes is just another support for the abundant “Celtic” associations

And the uncomfortably politically incorrect alternative: the Slave Trade?

he found and filmed in north Africa, in song and singers, archaeological monuments, manuscript decoration and jewellery design. Such treasures as the Ardagh Chalice and Book of Durrow show intricate affinity with Islamic decorative motifs and crafts, and Coptic Christianity from Egypt left material traces well ahead of St Patrick.

The West to East migration at the end of the last Ice Age makes a lot more sense and I think it could explain why Q-Celtic seems to be the older form and P-Celtic (which would have a lot of Continental European influence) seems to be the younger of the two branches. Intelligence and ideas propagate.

Ireland and Scottish people being closely related by extension would mean that some of our heritage must be North African?

It is probably a lot more complex than that. There's probably even Neanderthal DNA in there too. (I think that most Europeans have some while Africans have no Neanderthal DNA.) A bit funny when the politically correct types use "Neandarthal" as an insult.

Regards...jmcc

[fluffybiscuits]

And the uncomfortably politically incorrect alternative: the Slave Trade?

The West to East migration at the end of the last Ice Age makes a lot more sense and I think it could explain why Q-Celtic seems to be the older form and P-Celtic (which would have a lot of Continental European influence) seems to be the younger of the two branches. Intelligence and ideas propagate.

It is probably a lot more complex than that. There's probably even Neanderthal DNA in there too. (I think that most Europeans have some while Africans have no Neanderthal DNA.) A bit funny when the politically correct types use "Neandarthal" as an insult.

Regards...jmcc

It could very well have been the apalling slave trade which brought the genetic mix into play . The reason I love the theory is that at least there is some evidence that we may be of African origin and groups like DRM and BNP whom are dead set against such groups could have people in position of power who owe their very existence to such genes. Ironic isnt it!

[Sam Lord]

Hate to break it to you Fluffy but everyone on the planet comes from Africa.

[jmcc]

Hate to break it to you Fluffy but everyone on the planet comes from Africa.

I think you've just made Fluffy's day - a confirmed theory.

Regards...jmcc

[Sidewinder]

Do Irish people really simply not learn their own history, culture and folklore any more?

The Milesian's own origin myth was that they originated in Scythia, lived in North Africa for many generations, that one of their revered ancestor figures Scotia (from whom ultimately we get the word for the Scots) was the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh, that they eventually migrated up into what is now Spain, probably near the Basque Country, and only came to Ireland in a revenge attack after Íth, the brother of Míl, was murdered on a visit to Ireland, so his nephews (the sons of Míl, hence Milesians) invaded.

It was all written down 1600 years ago in the Book of Invasions (Leabhar Gabhala, or something like that, if memory serves) by monks who added their own fanciful Christian embellishments like spurious connections while in Egypt to Moses and the Exodus and so on, but the core of the story was even then a very old oral folklore tradition. There was never any secret in Irish tradition of an ancient link to North Africa and northern Spain, they were quite open and proud about it.

Come on, I learned this stuff in national school nigh-on 35 years ago!

[fluffybiscuits]

Hate to break it to you Fluffy but everyone on the planet comes from Africa.

From the Rift Valley , very little mentioned about the Tuareg and Berber connections though!

@JMCC he has made my day!!

[fluffybiscuits]

Do Irish people really simply not learn their own history, culture and folklore any more?

The Milesian's own origin myth was that they originated in Scythia, lived in North Africa for many generations, that one of their revered ancestor figures Scotia (from whom ultimately we get the word for the Scots) was the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh, that they eventually migrated up into what is now Spain, probably near the Basque Country, and only came to Ireland in a revenge attack after Íth, the brother of Míl, was murdered on a visit to Ireland, so his nephews (the sons of Míl, hence Milesians) invaded.

It was all written down 1600 years ago in the Book of Invasions (Leabhar Gabhala, or something like that, if memory serves) by monks who added their own fanciful Christian embellishments like spurious connections while in Egypt to Moses and the Exodus and so on, but the core of the story was even then a very old oral folklore tradition. There was never any secret in Irish tradition of an ancient link to North Africa and northern Spain, they were quite open and proud about it.

Come on, I learned this stuff in national school nigh-on 35 years ago!

Thank you Sidey, that was what I got mixed up with was the Milesians. It would not explain though the links between the Arab world though as at the time the Egyptians would have had the Nubian culture in place. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia) or am I wrong? Im embarassed to say I learnt that at school too Sidey and I forgot about it

[Sidewinder]

Well you have to assume that North African Islamic art would have been influenced itself by the local cultures it assimilated, and if the Milesians, Berbers and Tuaregs had all been knocking about North Africa together for hundreds of years - and the Milesians made no secret of this at all - of course there's going to some cultural crossovers there and distant echos in one another's art and music.

Ever listen to Ali Farka Toure or Toumani Diabaté?

I'm surprised that some people seem to be surprised, that's all. It's all there in black and white if you know your own folklore. I mean we were read all the old legends as bedtime stories as kids, it was just natural. Children of Lir, salmon of wisdom, Oisin and Tir na nOg, all that stuff, it was just a normal part of being a child back in the longago beforetime. The Book of Invasions would have been a part of that, the mystical battles with Fomorians, Fir Bolg, the Tuatha de Danaan, Balor of the Evil Eye, Nuada Silverhand, all that, great stuff for kids.

And it seems to be all just....gone. Make a reference to any of those legends to anyone under 35 and they seem to have no idea at all what on earth you are raving on about.

[Sidewinder]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zn7cXwWRco"]Ali Farka Toure + Toumani Diabate - Howo Dolo - YouTube[/ame]

[fluffybiscuits]

@ Sidey , some wonderful tales, the following from Wikipedia is a classic example..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_G...1la_%C3%89renn

The story of the Gaels, which was interrupted at the end of Book 2, is now resumed. Íth, who has spied Ireland from the top of Breogán's Tower, journeys to Ireland to investigate his discovery. There he is welcomed by the rulers, but jealous nobles kill him and his men return to Iberia with his body. The Milesians, or sons of his uncle Míl Espáine, set out to avenge his death and conquer the island. When they arrive in Ireland, they advance to Tara, the royal seat, to demand the kingship. On the way they are greeted in turn by three women, Banba, Fodla and Ériu, who are the queens of the three co-regents of the land. Each woman welcomes the Milesians and tells them that her name is the name by which the land is known, and asks that it remain so if the Milesians are victorious in battle. One of the Milesians, the poet Amergin, promises that it shall be so. At Tara they are greeted by the three kings of the Tuatha Dé Danann, who defend their claim to the joint kingship of the land. It is decided that the Milesians must return to their ships and sail out to sea to a distance of nine waves from the shore, so that the Tuatha Dé Danann may have a chance to mobilise their forces. But when the Milesians are "beyond nine waves", the druids of the Tuatha Dé Danann conjure up a ferocious storm. The Milesian fleet is driven out to sea but Amergin dispels the wind with his poetry. Of the surviving ships those of Éber land at Inber Scéine (the Shannon estuary) in the west of the country, while those of Érimón land at Inber Colptha (the mouth of the Boyne). In two ensuing battles at Sliabh Mis and Tailtiu, the Tuatha Dé Danann are defeated. They are eventually driven out and the lordship of Ireland is divided between Éber and Éremón.

I certianly know a lot of people under 35 would not know a lot about the prehistory of Irish folklore and how it relates to now. It was completely forogtten by me till I read that article and the your post brought back a lot of memories flooding!

[Holly]

Artist's impression of Cucullin.