Atheism that limits, or atheism that empowers?

[random new yorker]

Whatever, it's what i feel up to now, with an aching back and even a hint of sunburn.

Yea sun in the UK is hard to come by...

And sunburn is good for you....given that y'all are Vit D deficient anyway

Shaadi above got going on a nice thought you might want to follow up

[Shaadi]

Do not agree here, and i would have to say that a certain - higher than expected - percentage of scientists i know are also quite spiritual.

Highly intelligent people swing each way on matters of spirituality, nevertheless, if there is no compelling logic to indicate that their spirituality is based on a high degree of probability, then their spirituality is just a state of mind.

[fluffybiscuits]

Highly intelligent people swing each way on matters of spirituality, nevertheless, if there is no compelling logic to indicate that their spirituality is based on a high degree of probability, then their spirituality is just a state of mind.

However what is the most fascinating is that on one hand people are intelligent yet they are presented with this theory that defies belief. There is no evidence for god yet they believe something without a shred of evidence.

[Shaadi]

However what is the most fascinating is that on one hand people are intelligent yet they are presented with this theory that defies belief. There is no evidence for god yet they believe something without a shred of evidence.

Religion and spirituality are not necessarily connected. What people seem to mean by spirituality also encompasses feelings of being at one with the Universe, Nature, etc. The traditional hippy stereotype would be a good example.

They may be living in their own reality, but by any stretch of the imagination it's far from reality to imagine that you're spiritually connected in a meaningful way to anything that isn't aware of you.

You could think you were Elvis, in your own reality it would seem to be true, but in the world outside of your head it would obviously be demonstrably false.

[random new yorker]

Highly intelligent people swing each way on matters of spirituality, nevertheless, if there is no compelling logic to indicate that their spirituality is based on a high degree of probability, then their spirituality is just a state of mind.

(...setting aside the hippy stereotype...)

Yes, will you agree that you can also equate this 'state of mind' to a 'state of faith', of sorts?

That is when i think even 'believing scientists' can come full circle w the 'religious crowd'.

I don't dismiss one or the other.

Lets not take ourselves too seriously.

For one, it is widely proven that 'religious' people...ahem... do live longer, it appears they can control their blood pressure a lot better.

sooooo, if I want to live another 40 or 50 years then I'd better start prayin' now

[random new yorker]

However what is the most fascinating is that on one hand people are intelligent yet they are presented with this theory that defies belief. There is no evidence for god yet they believe something without a shred of evidence.

Some intelligent people do not equate G-d and theories that defy belief. Especially scientists/others that rely on hard experimentation to prove hypothesis, these tend to acknowledge that if the methodology at hand is not advanced enough to derive facts then one can not take the theory out of the hypothesis. It still lurks in the dark. In other words, one can not say it does not exist if one can not prove experimentally it does not exist.

This is the reason someone above speaks of dismissing religion on the next to zero probability that a 'supreme' being could ever be proven, imho.

[MauriceColgan]

Did you really think in an indoctrinated way? Most people I knew just went along with it, I don't think they were thinking in an indoctrinated way despite the best efforts of the religious to indoctrinate them. It could possibly be a generational thing, I'm in my 40s, educated by the religious from start to finish and I would say that no more then a handful of those I went to school with would ever have fallen into a category of catholic indoctrinated thinking. They might have voted conservatively but they certainly weren't Joe Duffy type holy rollers.

Hi Shaadi, I had no alternative than to think in an indoctrinated way. You see from seven onwards I was taught religion in a Roman catholic school in England where the subject was an everyday reinforcement. A siege mentality. :-) The Christian Brothers and Nuns at Golden Bridge and Inchicore in Ireland had not been so relentless. Yes we children were left with no doubt the RC Church was the God given truth.
Imagine then a child of thirteen doubting the power of the Empire to keep a very curious mind satisfied. :-)
Especially after Evolution had been introduced to us at secondary school.

Hello Capt'n. Yes the Dawkins critics lose out because they attempt to portray the scientist in a very misleading way. Are they really so threatened by him?

A rhetorical question of course. :-)

Sorry for the delay in responding I'm really busy with my Guerilla gardening..while the sun shines.

http://irelandtoo.blogspot.com

[Monetpenny]

There are health benefits to prayer.
If I remember correctly reciting prayers has a calming effect, much like meditation.
But prayers could be replaced by counting & the body would receive the same benefits.
However, there is also a downside.
Catholics who pray regularly scored significantly higher on the neuroticism scale.
It doesn't necessarily mean that praying causes neuroticism it could be that neurotic people are much more likely to pray.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

As it appears our ability to plan and cooperate in order to evade predators both real and imaginary are an offshoot of earlier evolutionary developments such as nutritional changes and the development of language it seems logical that with these benefits come a down side.

We are the ace predator on the planet and these skills may also make us more aware of our own delicacy and vulnerability. Just as there seem to be indications that illnesses such as manic depression/schizophrenia are hereditary it is possible that these downsides to the human mind arose either with or not long after the expansion of consciousness brought on by the development of language skills.

I suspect religion and a belief in a supreme being is a defence mechanism. I've always thought that the main benefit of religious belief is that it provides relief from having to examine or think about the big questions around our existence- Why? To what end do we exist?

The answer that we may have no point other than as an offshoot of evolution in the conditions on this planet is just as uncomfortable as the big questions.

Religion and belief in a supreme being shortcuts and acts as a palliative in that area psychologically and scientists aren't immune to that, being human.

Does a rhododendron consider the big questions about its existence? We don't think so as we can observe whether it has the equipment or capacity to do so. And yet it serves a purpose and evolution in its colours which are a signal to the insects who interact with it.

The only difference psychologically between us and a rhododendron really is that its life is much simpler and it is not presented with the problem of understanding why it exists. It just is, and generally doesn't become neurotic about the big questions.

We know that religious belief is rarer or less evident among those who are highly educated and more common among those who are not.

What was it that was said about organised religion in Rome around the birth of xtianity? Something like it was a comfort to the masses, found incredible by the educated, and useful to the Emperor.

And that explains the current Emperor of Rome just as it did Constantine.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I was just thinking that religious proselytizers when out and about seducing humans and generally soul-hunting tend to use imprecations to 'surrender' to god or to 'accept' jesus into one's life.

I suspect that involves a vountary surrender of something intrinsically fundamental in the human psychologically and an appeal to the benefits of institutionalisation. It may be tougher being on the outside and having to survive on one's wits rather than taking the three squares and a spiritual fresco over one's head as a visible cut-off point for the Great Wondering but you also have to surrender your place in the effort to understand.

Not a good deal. May be a good trade off for some who are made uneasy by ongoing uncertainty but I think it is an 'opt-out' rather than an 'opt-in'.

[Shaadi]

(...setting aside the hippy stereotype...)

Yes, will you agree that you can also equate this 'state of mind' to a 'state of faith', of sorts?

That is when i think even 'believing scientists' can come full circle w the 'religious crowd'.

I don't dismiss one or the other.

Lets not take ourselves too seriously.

For one, it is widely proven that 'religious' people...ahem... do live longer, it appears they can control their blood pressure a lot better.

sooooo, if I want to live another 40 or 50 years then I'd better start prayin' now

( The hippy stereotype was just an example of a spirituality set aside from mainstream religion. )

I never take myself too seriously There are none so deluded as those who think they and they alone are correct.

I tend to live and let live, I don't mean to be dismissive of peoples beliefs at all. It's just that when then the subject of reality comes up, we should try and separate it from unproven belief.

Belief in the unknown is a state of mind, a suspension of critical thinking. As in, I can't rationally provide a proof for this but I wan't to believe it, so I'll believe the unproven and call it faith/spirituality.

As regards to the benefits of belief, the saying "let him off, if it makes him feel happy, where's the harm in it" should apply.

Except, that there's often an awful lot of harm in it for other people. FGM, indoctrination, repressive social policies, they should all be taken on and smashed.

If indeed you are a random new yorker, then you come from a country that cherishes freedom/diversity of belief. You have a different take on the repressive potential of religions to impose themselves on society.

Growing up in what was basically a form of theocracy here in the 60s and 70s gives me a different perspective on the "benefits" of religion.

We, by our societal conditioning come at the subject of faith from two different directions. Your direction is more tolerant of faith, mine is more dedicated to opposing the ability of the faithful to impose their intolerance on others. If that means calling them out on the improbability of their beliefs, it's a mild form of intolerance and a necessary one.

[Shaadi]

For one, it is widely proven that 'religious' people...ahem... do live longer, it appears they can control their blood pressure a lot better.

sooooo, if I want to live another 40 or 50 years then I'd better start prayin' now

This comes back to my view that God replaced the troupe leader who would have provided security for our primate ancestors when we lived in much smaller groups than we do now. A troupe of primates without a leader would feel less secure than if they had a leader, so it's no surprise that a belief in a supernatural leader who's watching our backs would lower our stress levels.

Some of us are unable to perform the mental gymnastics required to believe that we have an imaginary guardian, even if it might be good for our heath.

[fluffybiscuits]

This comes back to my view that God replaced the troupe leader who would have provided security for our primate ancestors when we lived in much smaller groups than we do now. A troupe of primates without a leader would feel less secure than if they had a leader, so it's no surprise that a belief in a supernatural leader who's watching our backs would lower our stress levels.

Some of us are unable to perform the mental gymnastics required to believe that we have an imaginary guardian, even if it might be good for our heath.

+1

The comfort factor so to speak. There is no athiests in foxholes they say but alas if we are there in that dark place some of us will look for a counsellor, some of us will hit the bottle and some of us will turn to god. Its a reflext almost that we seek higher planes of thought to enable us to cope in our most difficult time. Religion could be looked upon as being transient, bringing us from one crisis back to reality.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Depends on what conditioning one was exposed to as a child I suppose. It is very unlikely that a Muslim member of the Taliban will duck down behind a mudbank as the mortars land saying 'sweet jesus mary and joseph and all the saints be with us'.

If you ever hear of that I'd check his passport. it is very unlikely he will have in extremis converted to catholicism.

[random new yorker]

Some very good points brought about by all of you above regarding religion as a defense mechanism (can be proven w some form of biology i am sure) and G-d replacing the troupe leader as we evolved (social psychology will explain this easy).

So the task becomes more challenging to bring up a point or two not yet discussed.

Yes indeed I am a random new yorker and as most random new yorkers i was not brought up in the US of A. I guess that my upbringing would be relevant for this discussion as a means to justify my point of view but given that this is public space readable all over the world i like to keep private information within private messaging. I was raised in Europe then one day the challenge was too great to stick to the old continent.

As far as the power of religion... i very much like this article by Paul Krugman. He says Ignorance is Strength. I say Ignorance + Religion = Strength. Indoctrination WILL happen when the level of education is low. It really is independent of the G-d you fancy. So I am not surprised to learn that as you people become more educated then you posit your questions and indoctrination does not stick.

Although I think I have noticed there is something different about your brand of catholicism in Ireland vs other european countries. More sanguine, bit strange. I am assuming this is related to your own local (celtic?pagan?) culture which i fail to understand.

...then you come from a country that cherishes freedom/diversity of belief. You have a different take on the repressive potential of religions to impose themselves on society.

It is interesting to realize how people here in the States are quite sanguine about 'practicing' their religion (of whatever kind) yet they are a lot less sanguine about 'fighting' for it.

I always discuss these issues from a political point of view as I find it difficult but essential to divorce the two, ie, politics from religion.
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