Len Pen first to pick up on right/left rust

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I wish it were not Marine Le Pen but she seems to be the first of the French politicians to zero in on the contemporary dynamics of the politics of today and seemingly to become aware that the pre-decimal language of the left versus the right is no longer relevant.

I did consider putting this in the 'French Presidential Election' thread but then thought as I have been saying for some time this subject is bigger than that election.

Partly, it will amuse me to see whether the determined beards among the mods might disagree and try to recast this statement along traditional lines which suit their customary understanding of political dynamics.

I don't like Marine Le Pen or her party. But she has this spot-on. And I now know that she is dangerously intelligent if she is responsible for moving the FN to this policy track;

'Using left-wing language, she has positioned herself as a critic of globalisation and a champion of protectionism and workers’ rights, and until recently gave less prominence to attacks on immigration and crime.

“I am in favour of redrawing political life to move away from the left/right division, which I find old-fashioned and artificial, towards a division between those who believe in France, in the nation state, and those who no longer believe in the nation state,” Le Pen said. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...314968577.html

Unfortunately, she is right. She is now on quite possibly the most intelligent track of any political party leader in Europe.

[Apjp]

I wish it were not Marine Le Pen but she seems to be the first of the French politicians to zero in on the contemporary dynamics of the politics of today and seemingly to become aware that the pre-decimal language of the left versus the right is no longer relevant.

I did consider putting this in the 'French Presidential Election' thread but then thought as I have been saying for some time this subject is bigger than that election.

Partly, it will amuse me to see whether the determined beards among the mods might disagree and try to recast this statement along traditional lines which suit their customary understanding of political dynamics.

I don't like Marine Le Pen or her party. But she has this spot-on. And I now know that she is dangerously intelligent if she is responsible for moving the FN to this policy track;

'Using left-wing language, she has positioned herself as a critic of globalisation and a champion of protectionism and workers’ rights, and until recently gave less prominence to attacks on immigration and crime.

“I am in favour of redrawing political life to move away from the left/right division, which I find old-fashioned and artificial, towards a division between those who believe in France, in the nation state, and those who no longer believe in the nation state,” Le Pen said. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...314968577.html

Unfortunately, she is right. She is now on quite possibly the most intelligent track of any political party leader in Europe.

She has an air of Adolf the man who got Germany the bread about her. This feels like the 1930s again. If we look at French polls, the country seems divided about 40% for the soft/hard left and about the same for the soft/hard right. They are a bit bipolar the French. I know multilingual europhiles who blame all France's problems on arabs. That seems to be the most common theme. In Ireland maybe the equivalent to French arabs in terms of social standing(Not population obviously) are the travellers or the Roman gypsies. Not that I knew many arabs in Ireland. When people get obssessed with the 'nation state' they forget the republic and its freedoms.

[ZeroWedge]

that the pre-decimal language of the left versus the right is no longer relevant.

The terms of "left" and "right" have always been inadequate to describe the full spectrum of ideas and policies a country has to choose from. Countries that dont have proportional representation in their parliament tend to fall most heavily into this moronic polarisation.

Irelands system of multi seat constituencies is better at providing a fuller choice of policies for voters to choose from, than just plain old "right" and "left" that you have in the UK and USA.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The terms of "left" and "right" have always been inadequate to describe the full spectrum of ideas and policies a country has to choose from. Countries that dont have proportional representation in their parliament tend to fall most heavily into this moronic polarisation.

Irelands system of multi seat constituencies is better at providing a fuller choice of policies for voters to choose from, than just plain old "right" and "left" that you have in the UK and USA.

Unless of course the truth about Ireland is forty shades of right and a quaint ghetto in the old-town left. Which is much more likely on a socially conservative island at the fringe of Europe.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I fear it is the truth.

[ZeroWedge]

Unless of course the truth about Ireland is forty shades of right and a quaint ghetto in the old-town left. Which is much more likely on a socially conservative island at the fringe of Europe.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but I fear it is the truth.

Just think how much worse it would be if we just had a choice of only two parties, like in the UK and USA.

The social conservatism you talk about is a result of the complete takeover of the country by the roman catholic church, after independence. That era is ending now.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Well she has certainly picked up on the correct theme. Wind is there to be taken out of both traditional left and right old-fashioned stuff. I expect this to be replicated across Europe and possibly pop up in US politics as well over the next five years.

[Sam Lord]

Apjp is absolutely right. The National Socialists were there decades ahead at her. It is the same old stuff being recycled. History repeating ...

I fear for the future of Europe when even on a sophisticated political site such as this one sees the most backward notions being aired and given credence ... there are no such things as classes, class struggle is an antiquated notion, left/right is an antiquated notion, etc. etc.

I really can see the workers of Europe being drowned in blood again as the crisis of capitalism intensifies.

[unspecific]

It is not possible for a left/right axis to not exist. It is impossible to "move past it". That sentiment makes zero sense whatsoever. Its also always used by people who only have right-wing thoughts. You might call it manipulation, but you wouldn't fall for that Captain, would you?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

It is not possible for a left/right axis to not exist. It is impossible to "move past it". That sentiment makes zero sense whatsoever. Its also always used by people who only have right-wing thoughts. You might call it manipulation, but you wouldn't fall for that Captain, would you?

'Right wing thoughts'. Wrongspeak, eh? Basically the only significant area where the the Leninist-Trotskyite debate is anywhere near what we see today in relevance is in consideration of resources.

The rest of it- right wing against left-wing is just a university card game. One can label people with those old labels all day long by asking them such questions as where they stand on co-ops or ownership of goods and so on and the fraud will tell the voters what the voters want to hear.

if there are more votes in extolling the virtues of pre-decimal socialism then thats what you'll hear until after the election.

The Dail salary and any possible pensions won't be offered to the collective though- you can be equally sure of that.

[Apjp]

'Right wing thoughts'. Wrongspeak, eh? Basically the only significant area where the the Leninist-Trotskyite debate is anywhere near what we see today in relevance is in consideration of resources.

The rest of it- right wing against left-wing is just a university card game. One can label people with those old labels all day long by asking them such questions as where they stand on co-ops or ownership of goods and so on and the fraud will tell the voters what the voters want to hear.

if there are more votes in extolling the virtues of pre-decimal socialism then thats what you'll hear until after the election.

The Dail salary and any possible pensions won't be offered to the collective though- you can be equally sure of that.

I like where Alex Salmond is taking Scotland and I like what I hear about Norway, Iceland and Greenland in terms of energy, fisheries, neutrality(ok with the acception of Norway there), peace, cultural identity and social inclusiveness regardless of background, nationality, religion, sexuality etc. Can't we just have a bit more cop on like our non-English neighbours? Not that I want us to be German(come on we're not that boring) or French(people should see the stupid rules that exist here).

We're a different people from some others, but we have a lot in common with our more friendly and in many ways more special and predictably overlooked neighbours. You won't read how low Icelandic unemployment is in your Irish papers. I like the idea of being different and free. We can do that by looking at the done examples North of us and those just a few miles over the water who are gradually getting there. I think as well that the enxt few years should see a case brought forward for partial re-unification if not full re-unification of the country as Scotland leaves the UK, especially on military matters. Do we even know if the Brits keep warheads or want to keep them in the North? If a nuke hit Newry you'd feel it in Dundalk. not beyond possibility looking at the British aggression against Iran recently.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I like where Alex Salmond is taking Scotland and I like what I hear about Norway, Iceland and Greenland in terms of energy, fisheries, neutrality(ok with the acception of Norway there), peace, cultural identity and social inclusiveness regardless of background, nationality, religion, sexuality etc. Can't we just have a bit more cop on like our non-English neighbours? Not that I want us to be German(come on we're not that boring) or French(people should see the stupid rules that exist here).

We're a different people from some others, but we have a lot in common with our more friendly and in many ways more special and predictably overlooked neighbours. You won't read how low Icelandic unemployment is in your Irish papers. I like the idea of being different and free. We can do that by looking at the done examples North of us and those just a few miles over the water who are gradually getting there. I think as well that the enxt few years should see a case brought forward for partial re-unification if not full re-unification of the country as Scotland leaves the UK, especially on military matters. Do we even know if the Brits keep warheads or want to keep them in the North? If a nuke hit Newry you'd feel it in Dundalk. not beyond possibility looking at the British aggression against Iran recently.

We do have a lot in common with the other peripheral nations but unfortunately as you can see from recent statements in Irish affairs along the lines of 'We are closer to Boston than Berlin', 'We'll be at the heart of Europe' and so on we like to think we are bigger than Iceland for some reason- mostly misdirectional flattery from a political class that took a lesson from the British in how to handle the Irish- 'keep them distracted and fighting among themselves'.

Hence Croke Park as a divide and rule tactic.

We had an Icelandic poster here once who made a simple statement that is worth a whole library full of Irish political talk (which is in reality mostly gossip-for-men in Ireland).

He said; 'I'd rather be free and poor than a fat slave.'

Plenty of Irish people would (and have) opted for the latter and will always do so unfortunately.

It is cultural training from a thousand years of trying to make a living by obeying, the patronage system, and a complete lack of understanding of democracy and what it means unless it is being talked about by the local 'big man'.

That goes back beyond the thousand year training to the days of the petty chieftains.

We never went through a phase of reaching for democracy. We just adoped those labels and complimented the new Gardai when they changed out of the Royal Dublin Police uniforms.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I'm basing my analysis of current political dynamics on the clear and up-front attack on the nation state by the corporate world.

What we have seen with the capture of national revenue by bankers/bondholders in Ireland is in fact an attack on the state.

This has been replicated in the US and across Europe. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'free market' as caveat emptor has been replaced in that philosophy with openly moral hazard economics.

Those who are behind it share the desire for open borders but with criminal oligarchies taking control via off-shore havens of the official economy. This actually requires a policy of 'debt sustainability' first for the weaker or peripheral economies and then will happen with France and Germany.

The face-off between corporation and state has nothing whatsoever to do with the international proletariat- the state as a notion is being removed not for the benefit of the proletariat but so there are no protections left between the corporation and the proletariat.

The inevitable lashback may come from a reassertion of nationality because that is the only way for people in any one state to take on the corporations. If the people do not demand and secure sovereignty in their national jurisdiction over the corporate entities attacking their state and society they will have nothing left but economic slavery.

It is the only way to fight back. You saw in Ireland in microcosm the ULA capers- philosophical outbreaks of gender politics and international disdain from socialists for the Irish ULA as lapdogs of the status quo in Ireland.

The ULA is a leninist bookshop extension- quaint but ridiculously toothless because it has nothing to offer the Irish proletariat but a facade of democratic outrage while various professional opposition careerists use it for their own ends. You might as well be counting on SIPTU.

I don't give a damn who ends up putting the pistol to the head of the corporation in this emerging and real battle as long as someone does. Let the beards sit around arguing about the dialectic as much as they like. They are nothing but a distraction and mostly a prepared distraction at that based on a reading of the international political dynamic which is stuck in a Trotsky/Leninist argument in the street of an intellectual ghetto.

[Sam Lord]

It is the only way to fight back. You saw in Ireland in microcosm the ULA capers- philosophical outbreaks of gender politics and international disdain from socialists for the Irish ULA as lapdogs of the status quo in Ireland.

The ULA is a leninist bookshop extension- quaint but ridiculously toothless because it has nothing to offer the Irish proletariat but a facade of democratic outrage while various professional opposition careerists use it for their own ends. You might as well be counting on SIPTU.

It is funny that you have got it just as wrong as the ULA has ...

The thesis that Connolly put forward regarding Ireland in the age of imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism remains absolutely correct. It is the touchstone of progressive politics. Connolly said, "The cause of Labour is the cause of Ireland, the cause of Ireland is the cause of Labour".

The ULA gets it absolutely wrong because for the Trots it is all Labour and no nation.

While you get it absolutely wrong because for you it is all nation and no Labour.

Different positions ... both equally incorrect.

In my opinion any political organisation in Ireland which does not adhere to Connoly's formulation will end up serving the bourgeoisie. And in a period of deepening crisis of the capitalist system that could well mean serving fascism.

And you are again wrong if you think this will come again in the form of a little man with a moustache.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

It is funny that you have got it just as wrong as the ULA has ...

The thesis that Connolly put forward regarding Ireland in the age of imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism remains absolutely correct. It is the touchstone of progressive politics. Connolly said, "The cause of Labour is the cause of Ireland, the cause of Ireland is the cause of Labour".

The ULA gets it absolutely wrong because for the Trots it is all Labour and no nation.

While you get it absolutely wrong because for you it is all nation and no Labour.

Different positions ... both equally incorrect.

In my opinion any political organisation in Ireland which does not adhere to Connoly's formulation will end up serving the bourgeoisie. And in a period of deepening crisis of the capitalist system that could well mean serving fascism.

And you are again wrong if you think this will come again in the form of a little man with a moustache.

The only problem with socialist leaders is they have a habit of turning into the bourgeoisie. That is particularly acute in Ireland. You can't have a socialist revolution anywhere were the real aim is to join the bourgeoisie.

Think SIPTU.

Happily the socialist institutions in Ireland (mostly around a brief flirtation in University) are engagingly hapless when it comes to anything more than discussing socialist theory and the endless angst over whether the product has been perfected enough to present to the masses yet.

At some point if ever there was an efficient attempt to take the state by national socialists in any guise you'd have to ask what the hell were the socialists doing in the middle of an economic crisis, punitive taxation and clear attempt to drive the middle class into the unemployed working class.

Probably discussing gender politics late into the night for some 90 odd years would be the answer.

I know a bit about this as in my naivete I hung around on the Irish left from the age of 17 until my mid 20's when I realised he Irish left wasn't worth a damn in any real way and emigrated, severing any connections I had with Irish socialists.

From what I can see now they are in exactly the same place now as they were back then.

It is a minority sport played around the university scene in Ireland with the odd sociology lecturer fooling himself he is important in Irish politics because he or she is bored.

[gfmurphy101]

"I don't give a damn who ends up putting the pistol to the head of the corporation in this emerging and real battle as long as someone does" .....neither did the Germans in 1933 and look what they got!

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