The "Peace Process" - There is No Strategy to End Sectarianism - CRC Report

[C. Flower]

A report by the Rowntree Trust has just been published by the CRC on 14 years of the "Peace Process" in the north of Ireland.

The report finds, amongst other things, that

• Working class communities have not gained from the "Peace Process."
  
• There is a new middle class urban society, that is not sectarian, in Derry and Belfast.
  
• There are more "Peace Walls" and there has been no strategy to reduce sectarianism and bring communities together.
  
• 20% of adults have no educational qualifications, as compared with 10% in the UK as a whole.
  
• 80% of the people would like to live in a mixed community.

http://www.three-creative.com/nipmr.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17198481

The Report is based on published data and it is intended to regularly up date it.

[C. Flower]

What the media describes as two nights of rioting, in Belfast, and reportedly 50 PSNI officers injured.

http://www.u.tv/Galleries/Disorder-a...4a1f4d4#206677

Up to 300 people were expected to take part in the march organised by the Henry Joy McCracken Flute Band – from Duncairn Parade in the New Lodge area to Clifton Street Cemetery

This event seems to have been followed by rioting by Unionists.

And there was scuffling after this one.

http://assets.u.tv/galleries/101327/...parade09RE.jpg

Is this business as usual, or more so?

http://www.u.tv/galleries/Second-nig...bc19916#206746

Report and video

http://www.u.tv/News/Paramilitaries-...d-c6c8770adf6d

Seven people have been arrested after the disturbances continued through to 3am on Tuesday morning.
Several hundred people - believed to be mainly loyalists - hurled missiles including 15 petrol bombs, fireworks and bricks at the PSNI. A van was hijacked and pushed towards police lines in Denmark Street.
Assistant Chief Constable Will Kerr told UTV "the level of engagement and dialogue and political activity" needs to be speeded up to make sure the parading issue is resolved sooner rather than later.
"What has happened to date hasn't worked."
He said that police resources were being re-allocated from other areas to deal with the rioting.
"We don't want someone to get killed - it's critically important.
"I am very proud of how my colleagues stood in the face of danger, working to bring this situation under control but I am saddened and angry that again we find ourselves subject to serious violence from the communities we serve."
Alban Maginness, SDLP MLA for the area, blamed paramilitaries for the rioting.
He told UTV: "There's nothing spontaneous in this rioting, it's an organised and sustained demonstration by paramilitaries of their street power in the Lower Shankill area, there's no doubt of that in my mind."
Six baton rounds were fired at the crowd and water cannon was used. The worst of the trouble was over by around midnight when the crowds dispersed. Police said the area has now been re-opened to traffic.

[5intheface]

Loyalists still upset that normal people had the audacity to object to their bigoted behaviour outside St. Patrick's chapel (short distance away over Westlink) and their subsequent breaking of Parades Commission restrictions on the Black Saturday march, decided that they would suddenly object to a Republican parade using a balcony on the Orange Order's HQ on Clifton Street to film the marchers.

They followed this up with a well organised assault on the Police at Carlisle Circus, invading an old people's home into the bargain, breaking windows and emptying bins as they went. A small crowd of Nationalists gathered on the Antrim Road (New Lodge) but the Cops pushed them back up the street.

Sets things up nicely for a large Loyalist march in a couple of weeks to celebrate the signing of The Solemn League and Covenant. This pi55ing about on the part of Loyalists, explained away as usual by Unionist Politicians as people having taken more than they can stomach has the potential to be a problem to dwarf all other parade disputes.

Carlisle Circus is just below the Shankill and Crumlin Roads, right beside the New Lodge and Carrick Hill and a piece of broken pavement's throw from the Ardoyne.

Of course the BBC painted the entire thing as Police getting injured trying to prevent sectarian fighting. I could say that the leaders of Unionism should catch themselves on before this really go tits up but that would be a waste of time.

[5intheface]

A children's news bulletin just now on the BBC explained that this trouble happens when a parade from one side goes through an area in which the other side lives. Not exactly the full story there, Tarquin?

[Trow]

Is this the ''Dire consequences for the peace process'' the Loyalist [UVF] prophet of the North and West Belfast parades forum forewarned of after being told to have his band past Ardoyne by 4pm?

[5intheface]

Is this the ''Dire consequences for the peace process'' the Loyalist [UVF] prophet of the North and West Belfast parades forum forewarned of after being told to have his band past Ardoyne by 4pm?

Winston 'Winkie' Irvine, Forum spokesman, community worker and alleged commander of the UVF's 'B' Company.

SF insist the trouble was planned by the Shankill UVF.

[Holly]

Sectarian tribalism is rooted in ignorance and poverty and it is perpetuated in the Six Counties by the Catholic Church which is hostile to educating children together in secular schools as well as decades of an intolerant Protestant government which used their paramilitary police to deny civil rights to Catholics.
While progress has been made to reform the police to resemble a modern service to protect all citizens equally, the Catholic Church's inflexibility about retaining sectarian schools will retard full social integration.

[fluffybiscuits]

Sectarian tribalism is rooted in ignorance and poverty and it is perpetuated in the Six Counties by the Catholic Church which is hostile to educating children together in secular schools as well as decades of an intolerant Protestant government which used their paramilitary police to deny civil rights to Catholics.
While progress has been made to reform the police to resemble a modern service to protect all citizens equally, the Catholic Church's inflexibility about retaining sectarian schools will retard full social integration.

The RCC seeks to do that so they can control their flock and not have them straying into Protestant territory. You are spot on also the RUC / PSNI are were one of the most ruthless forces for years alongside paramilitaries, both reinforced divisions that were available. Going forward secularisation could address the issue faced by both the communities. Force the schools to mix the children and include religious education outside of the school hours. A lot of places such as Belfast and Derry already enforce rules in public places which ban everything from football jersies to GAA jersies, music etc.

[5intheface]

Sectarian tribalism is rooted in ignorance and poverty and it is perpetuated in the Six Counties by the Catholic Church which is hostile to educating children together in secular schools as well as decades of an intolerant Protestant government which used their paramilitary police to deny civil rights to Catholics.
While progress has been made to reform the police to resemble a modern service to protect all citizens equally, the Catholic Church's inflexibility about retaining sectarian schools will retard full social integration.

Don't disagree greatly with any of those points Holly but as a summary of the problem it is a massive over-simplification.

For starters, and unpalatable as it may be to those who like to sell the 'one side as bad as the other' line, the simple truth is that the overwhelming naked sectarianism comes from one side and not from their working class alone. Only one side wants to ram their parades through areas they are not wanted and still attempts to make them as offensive as possible. These parades are not organised in the back streets of the Lower Shankill. There is and has been a crisis of identity in the Unionist community which has been getting deeper and deeper since the old Stormont government fell and until they decide who they are and what they want as opposed to who they aren't and what they don't want, little will change.

In the recent incidents centred around Carrick Hill and Carlisle Circus, the leaders of the Protestant Churches have at last stood up without resorting to whataboutery to those in the Orders and the politicians who still condone the behaviour. That I believe, has made those involved particularly angry.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that there isn't sectarianism on the other side but it manifests in a much different way and tends to be more political than religious and doesn't attempt to stamp its authority on every aspect of life to anything like the same extent.

It's so much easier to ignore this elephant in the room but ignoring it is in a large part why things have never improved.

As for the Catholic Church, I have no intention of defending them and would much rather see an integrated system where religion was taken out of education completely but I have to recognise that there are problems in this. Firstly, many people still want the Church running their schools, some because at one stage they relied on the Church as the state didn't provide a partial education system.

Also, the state schools are not currently neutral environments and nothing is being done to address that. Don't be fooled either by Integrated education as a balm for all ills. There is a great deal of evidence that, not unlike the GFA, some integrated schools have experienced a hardening of attitudes because of the overt 'one for them/one for us' model.

Personally, our oldest attended an integrated secondary and I was very impressed how they integrated abilities but as far as culturally goes, because it was in a town with a Unionist majority, the school had full time Rugby, Hockey and Cricket teams whilst once in second year, he had a Derry GAA player come in to give them a one off training session. They also talked about starting Irish but it never materialised. My point is not to slag them off but merely to point out that they have along way to go before they will really help.

Again not wanting to defend the Church but I don't think social integration is being stopped by them more than any other groups and certainly less than politicians and the still heavily controlled media and NIO.

When I was growing up, at times we would have got friendly with Protestants around the town, it wasn't that rare a thing and as we moved into the workplace we got to know lots more. But ask anyone from a Catholic/Nationalist/Republican background about the change in atmosphere which came about in so many of a PUL background around the start of July. It's no myth.

I married a Protestant. We would have no difficulty living in any mixed or Catholic area of the north. Could the same be said of Loyalist districts?

So what can be done? Well tackle the things that perpetuate sectarianism of course. Unfortunately, few things bolster the current system like the Good Friday Agreement. That's where we have to start.

Let's go back to the current trouble in north Belfast. The OFM/DFM are meeting right now to 'ensure this sort of thing never happens again'. The FM remained silent over the last few days and he and members of his party excused the behaviour that kicked this off and have fallen over themselves trying to link it to a Republican parade in Dungiven which bore no resemblance to the circumstances in Belfast. Some hope of a solution.

[C. Flower]

Don't disagree greatly with any of those points Holly but as a summary of the problem it is a massive over-simplification.

For starters, and unpalatable as it may be to those who like to sell the 'one side as bad as the other' line, the simple truth is that the overwhelming naked sectarianism comes from one side and not from their working class alone. Only one side wants to ram their parades through areas they are not wanted and still attempts to make them as offensive as possible. These parades are not organised in the back streets of the Lower Shankill. There is and has been a crisis of identity in the Unionist community which has been getting deeper and deeper since the old Stormont government fell and until they decide who they are and what they want as opposed to who they aren't and what they don't want, little will change.

In the recent incidents centred around Carrick Hill and Carlisle Circus, the leaders of the Protestant Churches have at last stood up without resorting to whataboutery to those in the Orders and the politicians who still condone the behaviour. That I believe, has made those involved particularly angry.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that there isn't sectarianism on the other side but it manifests in a much different way and tends to be more political than religious and doesn't attempt to stamp its authority on every aspect of life to anything like the same extent.

It's so much easier to ignore this elephant in the room but ignoring it is in a large part why things have never improved.

As for the Catholic Church, I have no intention of defending them and would much rather see an integrated system where religion was taken out of education completely but I have to recognise that there are problems in this. Firstly, many people still want the Church running their schools, some because at one stage they relied on the Church as the state didn't provide a partial education system.

Also, the state schools are not currently neutral environments and nothing is being done to address that. Don't be fooled either by Integrated education as a balm for all ills. There is a great deal of evidence that, not unlike the GFA, some integrated schools have experienced a hardening of attitudes because of the overt 'one for them/one for us' model.

Personally, our oldest attended an integrated secondary and I was very impressed how they integrated abilities but as far as culturally goes, because it was in a town with a Unionist majority, the school had full time Rugby, Hockey and Cricket teams whilst once in second year, he had a Derry GAA player come in to give them a one off training session. They also talked about starting Irish but it never materialised. My point is not to slag them off but merely to point out that they have along way to go before they will really help.

Again not wanting to defend the Church but I don't think social integration is being stopped by them more than any other groups and certainly less than politicians and the still heavily controlled media and NIO.

When I was growing up, at times we would have got friendly with Protestants around the town, it wasn't that rare a thing and as we moved into the workplace we got to know lots more. But ask anyone from a Catholic/Nationalist/Republican background about the change in atmosphere which came about in so many of a PUL background around the start of July. It's no myth.

I married a Protestant. We would have no difficulty living in any mixed or Catholic area of the north. Could the same be said of Loyalist districts?

So what can be done? Well tackle the things that perpetuate sectarianism of course. Unfortunately, few things bolster the current system like the Good Friday Agreement. That's where we have to start.

Let's go back to the current trouble in north Belfast. The OFM/DFM are meeting right now to 'ensure this sort of thing never happens again'. The FM remained silent over the last few days and he and members of his party excused the behaviour that kicked this off and have fallen over themselves trying to link it to a Republican parade in Dungiven which bore no resemblance to the circumstances in Belfast. Some hope of a solution.

From the outside, it is hard to join the dots between what is happening on the ground and the Rowntree report.

Working class communities have not gained from the "Peace Process."
There is a new middle class urban society, that is not sectarian, in Derry and Belfast.
There are more "Peace Walls" and there has been no strategy to reduce sectarianism and bring communities together.
20% of adults have no educational qualifications, as compared with 10% in the UK as a whole.
80% of the people would like to live in a mixed community.

The GFA seems to have both politically and literally cemented separatism, and the whole emphasis on minutiae of negotiations and agreements on the marches - from the outside - appears to lock in to that set up.
If the GFA ever intended to break down the separation, then some resources would surely have gone into trying to do that - instead of pouring cash into political hands on either side of the divide ?

It sounds from what I've read (not experienced at first hand) that living in a loyalist area is not a barrel of fun for most people and I'm not surprised that the majority would rather live in a mixed community.

[5intheface]

From the outside, it is hard to join the dots between what is happening on the ground and the Rowntree report.
The GFA seems to have both politically and literally cemented separatism, and the whole emphasis on minutiae of negotiations and agreements on the marches - from the outside - appears to lock in to that set up.
If the GFA ever intended to break down the separation, then some resources would surely have gone into trying to do that - instead of pouring cash into political hands on either side of the divide ?

It sounds from what I've read (not experienced at first hand) that living in a loyalist area is not a barrel of fun for most people and I'm not surprised that the majority would rather live in a mixed community.

Take any report that involves asking people up here any questions with a bucket of salt. Respondees will immediately ask themselves, 'who is asking me this question and why?'

On the whole, they will then tell lies or at best, answer in an manner that they judge will suit the situation.

On parades, SF and the DUP did get together to hammer out some sort of agreement a couple of years back. No one knows what this was but I presume it was another GFA style trade-off but guess what? The Orange Order refused to have anything to do with it, the DUP said okay and that was the end of the story.

Working class Loyalist areas are not a pleasant environment for anyone that is true. Especially uncomfortable for Immigrants, with regular attacks on houses coupled with outlandish allegations against the attacked community. However, do bear in mind that because of the lack of housing in Nationalist areas, the overwhelming majority of Immigrants do live in areas seen as PUL.

Working class CNR areas suffer all the same problems too but there simply isn't that vibrant cultural sectarianism that is now looked at as somehow okay because it's now traditional.

[C. Flower]

Take any report that involves asking people up here any questions with a bucket of salt.

Well, that clears that up

that vibrant cultural sectarianism that is now looked at as somehow okay because it's now traditional.

[Holly]

All sectarian parades should be banned. The fractured society in the Six Counties cannot handle them.
The solution is to remove religion from all public life and to educate the children together.

[Kid Ryder]

All sectarian parades should be banned. The fractured society in the Six Counties cannot handle them.

'Parity of Disdain' is not a runner for the British state. Remember how 30 years of insurgency resulted from the one-sided disdain Stormont MKI ran. Pissing off loyalists as deeply as nationalists once were is a recipe for the collapse of British rule in Ireland (and quite possibly British rule full stop given the wiles of Her Majesty's Securocracy and the likely popular reaction to those wiles) so no, HMG won't be 'not walking' down that road Holly.

The solution is to remove religion from all public life and to educate the children together.

A better solution would be to remove all children in Northern Ireland from earshot of breakfast and dinner tables. As 5 and many others will point out to you it's not the schools that are perpetuating the sectarian attitudes it's the opinion they're exposed to in the home. There's a hell of a lot of unexamined attitudes out there, especially in loyalist households, and the inability of people to critically evaluate what passes for 'heritage' and not being able to carry out that critical evaluation in public without ephitets like 'Lundy' being fired at the thinker is destroying any chance of cultural evolution in the North.