* Fiscal Stability Treaty Referendum 31st May 2012 *

[ang]

So. Schauble can hold on to his principles, but Hollande must sacrifice his ?

Yes you've got it Cass and I suspect we could see a lot more of this "attitude" from Germany in the coming months.

[Dr. FIVE]

Big time.

Hollande has quite a few cards to play if he sticks to his promises. Despite the black holes France are sitting on there is no way Germany can isolate itself and go on without French support.

[morticia]

Yes you've got it Cass and I suspect we could see a lot more of this "attitude" from Germany in the coming months.

The problem is, to fight this, everyone else will have to unite to oppose Germany, and that does not appear to be happening yet, it's still everyone for themselves. United we would stand, but I suspect that divided, we will fall, one by one, picked off by the markets.

[eamo]

Got this from the Worker's Party referendum web site:http://workerseurope.ie/




This video is a remake of the government’s “information” video, giving an alternative view from a slightly satirical perspective. It was produced by the Counter Spin Collective, an independent media watchdog

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3HAw43lEyI"]The Stability Treaty - YouTube[/ame]

[Mr Aphorisms]

I have to say, this really is an insane Treaty created by madmen. I went through the government "your guide" pamphlet that was given to me by the landlord today. As already said, the Treaty is a complete eradication of all sovereignty and the capitulation to E.U demands.

First of all, the main jest of this Treaty seems to be that nations that run high deficits are incapable of governing themselves and so to save them and the Euro, the Treaty must be passed. Article 1(1) is straight to the point that the Fiscal Compact is "to strengthen the coordination of their(the "Contracting Parties" as we're called in this) economic policies and to improve the governance of the euro area, thereby supporting the achievement of the Europe Union's objectives for sustainable growth, employment, competitiveness and social cohesion."

The brazenness to actually use this Treaty as a way to say it will create jobs is incredible given the debacle that the Lisbon Treaty turned out to be.

Article's 3 and 8 from the "Fiscal Compact" section are the real dangerous parts of this Treaty.

Article 3(1) says: "The Contracting Parties shall apply the rules set out in this paragraph in addition and without prejudice to their obligation under European Law."

Then, straight after that and in a nicely sounding way, article 3 paragraph 1(a) says that "the budgetary position of the general government of a Contracting party shall be balances or in surplus" which means austerity until it is put right.

1(a) then goes on to say that the European Commission will decide on how we're and the Contracting Parties are performing. If we meet our medium term objectives, we'll be OK, supposedly. They make it clear later on what the punishment will be. I do love the way though that this pamphlet keeps on saying "contracting parties" as if we're all in this together. It really is comical I feel. We are not the same as Germany or France and will not be treated the same, nor will the rest.

We're only allowed "deviate" from the medium term objectives only in "exceptional circumstances." It doesn't actually say what that means, but points to paragraph 3(b) which doesn't point out what an exceptional circumstance would be. Can we use Enda and Lucy as exceptional circumstances given their ineptitude?

then 1(e) brings up this "correction mechanism" i.e if we f up, or are deviating, this mechanism will be "triggered automatically." The Contracting party will then have an "obligation" to sort this out or else face the consequences. Honestly, I am not a Europhile or wholly against Europe, but this Treaty is fuckin' draconian and it gets much worse.

In Article 3(b) it elaborates a bit on what "exceptional circumstances" are but doesn't give any specifics. I wonder about this because if we are falling away behind our "medium objectives" in a year or two and it is coming up to when we need to pay bondholders, will that be an exceptional circumstance and will Europe allow us to renege or defer from paying them? It is far too vague and to be honest, the way our government is, I can't ever see us using this exceptional circumstance provision, even if we needed too. "We pay our way" and all that.

Article 8 really is madness. If we fail to comply with Article 3(2), and the European Commission feels in its "reports" that the "Contracting Party" is going arseways, the "Contracting Party" will be brought to the Court of Justice by one of more Contracting Parties. Now, I don't think that will be a unilateral decision with Latvia and Malta asking Ireland to be brought. I really don't feel that the "Contracting Parties" or Spain and Portugal will be doing it either. I feel that it will be Germany and France that will be bringing these countries to the court of justice to sort them out. I mean, have you ever heard anything in your life such as this? It is completely insane. But it gets worse.

If another Contracting Party that another Contracting Party has failed to follow article 3(2), it may also bring the matter to the Court of Justice. But again, I can't see the smaller nations actually doing this or actually being taken seriously by the court.

And then comes the most insane part. The part that had Merkel portrayed as a Nazi. in paragraph 2 of Article 8, it says that:

"Where, on the basis of its own assessment or that of the European commision, a Contracting Party considers that another Contracting Party has not taken the necessary measures to comply with the judgement of the Court of Justice referred to in paragraph 1, it may bring the case before the Court of Justice and request the imposition of finacial sanctions following criteria established by the European Commission in the framework of article 260 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union."

It truly is a bizarre Treaty. So much for stability, try chaos. This will guarantee the banking institutions be untouched and the bondholders and will literally hold the countries of Europe at gunpoint. I also fear the power Germany will get from this Treaty as anyone who says it is equal and takes the wording of the Treaty seriously, about the "Contracting Parties" needs to be sent to an asylum.

Anyway, that is why I am voting no to this madness. Bit terse and all over the gaf, but just wanted to say my piece. Going to go over what others have said on here now and see if there's any good info to get hold of. And can the NO side please ban Joe Higgins from debates, thanks. Send in Declan Ganley, Kieran Allen, Gurgdiev, Somberville and a few others.

The reasons to vote yes I suppose are basically:

We're too stupid to look after our deficit
If we vote no, the ATM's will attack people and no one will lend us money.

[PaddyJoe]

It's difficult to nail down the kind of nonsense that emanates from Europe at the moment. The latest spin is that we have growth on one hand but austerity on the other....
there are only so many semantic knots you can tie yourself in before you run out of rope..
[quote][

In a marked shift of emphasis, Olli Rehn, the EU’s top economic official, will on Saturday call for additional government spending for large-scale infrastructure projects, arguing there is not sufficient private-sector demand to create jobs. Unemployment has surged in several eurozone countries, hitting its highest levels since the creation of the single currency and fuelling voter anger./QUOTE]

The commissioner will also give a clear signal that he is willing to loosen the EU’s tough new budget rules for countries like Spain, which has been forced to slash public spending in the face of a sharp economic downturn to meet Brussels-mandated deficit levels.
“The stability and growth pact is not stupid,” Mr Rehn will say, according to a draft of his address seen by the FT. “Yes, the EU fiscal framework is rules-based … but at the same time, the pact entails considerable scope for judgement when it comes to its application.”

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cfb38...#axzz1tx0xUBOV

[Dr. FIVE]

It's difficult to nail down the kind of nonsense that emanates from Europe at the moment.

Everyone is talking utter *****, always

[PaddyJoe]

Everyone is talking utter *****, always

Way too defeatist. Unless there was an odd one talking sense now and again how would we know the difference?
On an unrelated matter did you notice the Mac Book Pro and the iPad that Lucinda was sporting today?
Did Inda pick those up on his visit to Apple in Cork last week?

[DCon]

It's difficult to nail down the kind of nonsense that emanates from Europe at the moment. The latest spin is that we have growth on one hand but austerity on the other....
there are only so many semantic knots you can tie yourself in before you run out of rope..

[/COLOR][/LEFT]
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cfb38...#axzz1tx0xUBOV

What will Germany want? Things will get interesting if Hollande wins tomorrow

The European commission’s new push could antagonise Berlin, which has rejected new public money and is already fending off calls for more growth-oriented policies by François Hollande, the frontrunner in Sunday’s French presidential contest.

There are signs Mr Hollande may seek to go even further if he wins the election and push for anti-crisis measures already rejected by Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor. People close to the Hollande camp say he would seek to double the size of the eurozone’s rescue system to €1tn and allow it to borrow from European Central Bank, essentially giving it unlimited funds.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cfb38f54-9...#ixzz1u1YkHVeu

[rebellin]

“Stability” is a Ridiculous Referendum Slogan

The Government and their buddies think that if they just keep repeating the word stability in speeches and posters, they can convince the voters that the horrible austerity treaty is really a stability treaty.

Some stupid public relations firm advised them to “brand “ the treaty this way and just keep repeating it until May 31st. They are obviously depending on their view of the Irish voters as stupid and led around by the nose by stupid sophistic slogans.

But, the Irish voters aren’t stupid, and everybody knows that the only thing stable in the treaty is the assurance that the financial oligarchy will destroy Ireland.

If they just look at the major changes that will be affecting the eurozone this weekend, the Government would be shaking in their boots, having paid out millions for the stability brand. Just this weekend we will experience major change, and most of that change is centered on fights against the ESM.

This weekend will see Presidential elections in France, with Hollande pledging to reform the treaty if elected. There will also be Parliamentary elections in Greece, Schleswig-Holstein in Germany, and Serbia. There will be municipal elections in Italy.

Hearings on the ESM begin in the Finnish national Parliament. And later this week the Estonian Supreme Court will hold hearings on a complaint by Justice Minister Indrek Tender, who says that the emergency voting procedures violate the constitution.

Also, this weekend, there will be anti ESM information booths, leaflet distributions and protest marches in cities throughout Germany.

Just this survey is enough to make the “stability brand” a laughing stock throughout the world.

http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpres...rendum-slogan/

[ang]

“Stability” is a Ridiculous Referendum Slogan

Shane Ross has a bit to say about the use of "stability" on the Labour party posters and about Eamon and Enda if Hollande is elected:-

Beneath a totally inappropriate tricolour is the giveaway slogan. Labour ... "It's about ... Stability."

Dictionary definitions suggest that Labour's new slogan means "continuance without change" or even " resistance to change". Which just about sums Labour up these days.

If Hollande wins today he has the capacity to acutely embarrass Eamon and his fellow conservative, Taoiseach Enda Kenny. Francois has pledged to renegotiate Eamon and Enda's beloved fiscal treaty. Worse still, he is threatening to improve it for them. Politicians rarely forgive a favour. If Francois keeps his promise he will leave Eamon and Enda flipping around the country like beached whales, frantically campaigning for a lesser deal

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...a-3101430.html

What is the rush to hold this referendum now. Why can't it wait ?

[Baron von Biffo]

Shane Ross has a bit to say about the use of "stability" on the Labour party posters and about Eamon and Enda if Hollande is elected:-


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...a-3101430.html

What is the rush to hold this referendum now. Why can't it wait ?

"If Hollande wins today he has the capacity to acutely embarrass Eamon"

Not a hope. No power on Earth could embarrass Gilmore.

[ang]

"If Hollande wins today he has the capacity to acutely embarrass Eamon"

Not a hope. No power on Earth could embarrass Gilmore.

Probably not Baron.

Sarkozy Out Hollande In. Now let's see where Mr Hollande takes this Fiscal Compact

Angela's day is not getting any better her own CDU party has suffered it's worst electoral result since 1950 in Schleswig-Holstein:-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-holstein.html

[Holly]

...
The brazenness to actually use this Treaty as a way to say it will create jobs is incredible given the debacle that the Lisbon Treaty turned out to be.

I cannot see anything in the treaty that will create a job. It is not there.

It's difficult to nail down the kind of nonsense that emanates from Europe at the moment. The latest spin is that we have growth on one hand but austerity on the other....
there are only so many semantic knots you can tie yourself in before you run out of rope..

It is not explained how growth will be insured with this treaty.

The Finne Gwael philosophy is that growth cannot be created by a government but alone by foreign businesses (notably American outsourcing) and some Irish businessmen (the very same people who got rich during the Celtic Tiger years at the expense of the general population). Labour, as a right wing party supports this approach. By not taxing the rich and allowing companies to undercut the tax rates in the rest of Europe as well as taking advantage of offshore tax havens, it is hoped that lots of private enterprises will make Ireland rich again. Government capital investment and job creation is a socialist idea which is at odds with Finne Gwael and Labour. Consequently, there should be no need for a budgetary deficit as the state has no business in investment of any scale.

[C. Flower]

I cannot see anything in the treaty that will create a job. It is not there.


It is not explained how growth will be insured with this treaty.

The Finne Gwael philosophy is that growth cannot be created by a government but alone by foreign businesses (notably American outsourcing) and some Irish businessmen (the very same people who got rich during the Celtic Tiger years at the expense of the general population). Labour, as a right wing party supports this approach. By not taxing the rich and allowing companies to undercut the tax rates in the rest of Europe as well as taking advantage of offshore tax havens, it is hoped that lots of private enterprises will make Ireland rich again. Government capital investment and job creation is s socialist idea which is at odds with Finne Gwael and Labour. Consequently, there should be no need for a budgetary deficit as the state has no business in investment of any scale.

The Treaty requires us to shrink our economy. Jobs would be generated in the liquidation field, otherwise not.