Constitutional convention

[Dr. FIVE]

Gilmore made reference to the church. "1930s constitution for the 1930s" and all that stuff which isn't entirely fair but I don't have the Party breathing down my neck.


Every single government TD was quite aggrieved at Donnelly's suggestion that politicians cant be trusted near it. He also used examples Canada and somewhere else who spent six million doing theirs where as we have 300k planned for ours. Suppose we would go cracked if we were presented with that bill but the initial figure will rise anyway no doubt.

Agree entirely about local gov Ogiol. What's redistribution of wealth without redistribution of power. I think Ming would be quite happy to be a one term TD and head back to Roscommon full time. He has talked a few times about directly elected mayors, presenting budgets and plans before elections with Councillors actually having the power to implement them. We would need to see a real shake up of the Dáil for that to happen I think. They just can't break ties with the pump.

Listening to Paul Connaughton in Dail, his father has thought him well. Where would him and the others be without potholes and medical cards? Breaks my heart listening to some of the stuff raised in Dáil Eireann. All for show and the local papers and not hope of any results from it. Was it Noonan last month made an 'emergency statement' on the ESM or something and the next item was wandering sheep below in Schull.

[Dr. FIVE]

The topical issues debates we have now has only made it worse though it did relieve some of the ***** we have had to endure during standing orders.
A lifeline for the government backbenches and their number ones back home.

[Baron von Biffo]

Was that seperate thread/forum for constitutional suggestions created?

Empowering local government is fundamental, in my. Give county councils money raising powers and more control over local issues/services. This could go a long way towards the curtailing the parish-pump.

More power for LAs would be a good idea but there seems to be a movement in the opposite direction. I've heard a lot of mention lately about merging local authorities into regional authorities on the narrow-minded grounds that it would save a few quid. Just as the interests of Dublin dominate national debate, the interests of the largest urban centres would prevail in Regional Councils.

Recall at mid-term is another excellent idea. They have it in venezuela and infact 'recalled' chavez after collecting x amount of signatures (chavez won by 60+%) .

I think recall elections would be an appalling development. Look at the recent scandals involving TDs expenses and VAT - Supporters of the TDs involved claim to see media campaigns against their deputies and while that's obviously nonsense, one can see how easy it would be for the press to whip up hostility to a TD who didn't do the bidding of those whose interests the media represents.

Not being able to recall a TD means we are from time to time stuck with a scum-bag who hasn't the decency to resign when caught doing wrong but that's a small price to pay for giving the rest the stability to do their jobs.

Language rights should also be dealth with explicitely in the constitution, possibly under a human/basic rights section.

What do you think is necessary beyond what we have already in this area?

[Count Bobulescu]

Every single government TD was quite aggrieved at Donnelly's suggestion that politicians cant be trusted near it. He also used examples Canada and somewhere else who spent six million doing theirs where as we have 300k planned for ours. Suppose we would go cracked if we were presented with that bill but the initial figure will rise anyway no doubt.

The Canadian Constitution seems highly regarded internationally. See my comment at #23 above. Need to get Sam Lord on the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...s_and_Freedoms

[Dr. FIVE]

Where as our's is often cursed internationally.

[Count Bobulescu]

Cursed nationally as well.

I also agree with more local control, but it would also be important to build in some safeguards.

As an example take a county council that had increased budget responsibility. Let’s say it has 9/11/13 seats not some monstrous number like 35. Break a 9 seat council down into a combination of 5 sub district seats, plus 4 county wide seats. That reduces the risk of parochialism. Then stagger the election cycles, district seats might be on 3 or 5 year terms and county wide seats might be 4-6 years, and everyone subject to some form of term limits, three terms, 12 years or something like that.

[Saoirse go Deo]

Ours isn't actually that bad tbh, particularly good with regards to rights.

From my studies I was left with the impression that ours is well respected internationally, rather than cursed.

[Dr. FIVE]

Ours isn't actually that bad tbh, particularly good with regards to rights.

Much to go on women's and children's though.

Bert and Ernie are in the Irish Times today

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...319791935.html

[fluffybiscuits]

Ours isn't actually that bad tbh, particularly good with regards to rights.

From my studies I was left with the impression that ours is well respected internationally, rather than cursed.

They love the definition of marriage Im sure on the American far right! Nothing to be proud about in our constitution. It harks back to the days when Dev held the reins of power and the local padre was the most powerful man in a village...

[simonj]

My real feeling is that it is a white wash.
In Iceland they got it right and made fundamental change - our system consistently gets things wrong.
The main aim of all the politicians and civil service at all levels, be it local or national, is to avoid all responsibility and do as little as possible.


Any changes are very minor - the only one that could be seen as fundamental to a lot of people is allowing emigrants to vote in embassies, but thats no good to people like me, and the postal vote system is a joke in this country.

This will be a stage managed, safe and uncontroversial PR exercise. There is far too cosy a relationship between the media, politicos and civil servants, no one is accountable and the right questions are never asked, look at the Terry Prone situation FFS!

For real change, to get away from gombeenism, we need to go for at least a 50% list system - so that citizens can vote for persons who they feel best represent their views on a national level.

In local authorities, with the corruption and inefficiency that already exists, there would need to be real accountability and transparency - so the Freedom of Information act needs to be re-instituted properly, as Labour once demanded.

In terms of our legal system, why cant we elect DPP's for at least district court? The level of convictions, crimes committed by persons on bail or appeal etc - these all need urgent action

Peoples plebicites, issues like drug legislation etc. - we should be able to really drive change

[fluffybiscuits]

My real feeling is that it is a white wash.
In Iceland they got it right and made fundamental change - our system consistently gets things wrong.
The main aim of all the politicians and civil service at all levels, be it local or national, is to avoid all responsibility and do as little as possible.


Any changes are very minor - the only one that could be seen as fundamental to a lot of people is allowing emigrants to vote in embassies, but thats no good to people like me, and the postal vote system is a joke in this country.

This will be a stage managed, safe and uncontroversial PR exercise. There is far too cosy a relationship between the media, politicos and civil servants, no one is accountable and the right questions are never asked, look at the Terry Prone situation FFS!

For real change, to get away from gombeenism, we need to go for at least a 50% list system - so that citizens can vote for persons who they feel best represent their views on a national level.

In local authorities, with the corruption and inefficiency that already exists, there would need to be real accountability and transparency - so the Freedom of Information act needs to be re-instituted properly, as Labour once demanded.

In terms of our legal system, why cant we elect DPP's for at least district court? The level of convictions, crimes committed by persons on bail or appeal etc - these all need urgent action

Peoples plebicites, issues like drug legislation etc. - we should be able to really drive change

The FOI act is a complete and utter mess, lots of various agencies are exempt fropm it and therefore dont have to release a lot of info even when there is motions of discovery in some cases! Scrap the drug laws . If this constitution convention was in ten years time we wouldbe in a better position.

[simonj]

In terms of our legal system, why cant we elect DPP's for at least district court? The level of convictions, crimes committed by persons on bail or appeal etc - these all need urgent action

Just to expand on this, I am a total liberal at heart, left wing and supportive of human rights etc.

But people on bail or out on appeal - particularly with violent crime as with the Barry - Riedo case - surely they should be electronically tagged as is done in many other coutries?

During a court case, is a jury not entitled to know about previous convictions?

Here in the west we have major issues with this

[Baron von Biffo]

My real feeling is that it is a white wash.
In Iceland they got it right and made fundamental change - our system consistently gets things wrong.
The main aim of all the politicians and civil service at all levels, be it local or national, is to avoid all responsibility and do as little as possible.


Any changes are very minor - the only one that could be seen as fundamental to a lot of people is allowing emigrants to vote in embassies, but thats no good to people like me, and the postal vote system is a joke in this country.

This will be a stage managed, safe and uncontroversial PR exercise. There is far too cosy a relationship between the media, politicos and civil servants, no one is accountable and the right questions are never asked, look at the Terry Prone situation FFS!

For real change, to get away from gombeenism, we need to go for at least a 50% list system - so that citizens can vote for persons who they feel best represent their views on a national level.

In local authorities, with the corruption and inefficiency that already exists, there would need to be real accountability and transparency - so the Freedom of Information act needs to be re-instituted properly, as Labour once demanded.

In terms of our legal system, why cant we elect DPP's for at least district court? The level of convictions, crimes committed by persons on bail or appeal etc - these all need urgent action

Peoples plebicites, issues like drug legislation etc. - we should be able to really drive change

God Simon, I hope you're not one of the Random 66

Allowing emigrants sounds lovely and cuddly but it's fundamentally undemocratic. Democracy is a means for allowing the governed to select the governors. Emigrants will are not the governed so they shouldn't have a vote.

A list system undermines the idea of accountability. Think of all the ministers who've been voted out by the people over the years. As senior members of their parties, most of them would have kept their seats. List systems transfer power from the voters to the party bosses.

Election of the DPP and plebiscites on specific legislation would see us plunge down the American road of full prisons but no justice. It's a truly terrifying prospect.

I'm with you on the FoI though.

[simonj]

Allowing emigrants sounds lovely and cuddly but it's fundamentally undemocratic. Democracy is a means for allowing the governed to select the governors. Emigrants will are not the governed so they shouldn't have a vote.

A list system undermines the idea of accountability. Think of all the ministers who've been voted out by the people over the years. As senior members of their parties, most of them would have kept their seats. List systems transfer power from the voters to the party bosses.

Election of the DPP and plebiscites on specific legislation would see us plunge down the American road of full prisons but no justice. It's a truly terrifying prospect.

I'm with you on the FoI though.

As a person who works overseas but lives and pays tax in Ireland, I feel I am entitled to vote in every election - local and national.
With our archaic postal vote system it is more often than not that I cannot vote, this has to change.

A list system in my honest opinion would make politicians etc. more accountable, people like Lenehan, Healy-Rae, O Cuiv and others make gombeen politiics work for them - forcing them to go on a national list system takes away the pothole aspect of elections.
To be a minister, one should have to run on the list system - with say 50% of seats being determined that way, and local reps would come from constituancy based politics, the ratios etc would need to be looked into, but that would be the basic premise.

Our criminal legal system is rife with perjury, high cost and inefficiency, an elected DPP or Police commisioners/divisional police chiefs or something of that nature is needed - certainly at district court level, local people understand better what affects them than some guilded barraster

[Baron von Biffo]

As a person who works overseas but lives and pays tax in Ireland, I feel I am entitled to vote in every election - local and national.
With our archaic postal vote system it is more often than not that I cannot vote, this has to change.

Apologies, I misunderstood your point and thought you were advocating votes for emigrants.

If there's some administrative impediment in the postal vote system that leads to people being disenfranchised it should, of course, be dealt with but I can't see why the Constitutional Convention would need to address it.

A list system in my honest opinion would make politicians etc. more accountable, people like Lenehan, Healy-Rae, O Cuiv and others make gombeen politiics work for them - forcing them to go on a national list system takes away the pothole aspect of elections.
To be a minister, one should have to run on the list system - with say 50% of seats being determined that way, and local reps would come from constituancy based politics, the ratios etc would need to be looked into, but that would be the basic premise.

The pothole, and its near relation, the parish pump, are essentially sticks used to beat TDs from outside Dublin who raise issues on behalf of their constituents. We routinely hear criticism of Healey-Rae or Lowry for being parish pump politicians while Tony Gregory who wrote the template they work to, is almost always praised as an exemplary TD.

Decisions taken in the national parliament have an impact on the lives of people all across the country and the consequences can be very different depending on where one lives. It is only right and proper that politicians should represent the needs of their area in the Dail.

Any proposal that would diminish our rights to be heard in the Dail on issues that affect our areas should, I believe, be resisted.

On the matter of Ministers being chosen through a list system I would strongly disagree with you. A big problem with our system at present is that the Executive effectively controls the Legislature. If ministers were accountable to party bosses rather than the people that situation would only get worse.

At the last GE 5 sitting ministers were turfed out by the voters. That was a good thing in my book. It should serve as a warning to others around the cabinet table that their bosses can sack them. If we'd had a list system then at least the 3 FF ministers would have kept their seats.

A list system for ministers have greater potential for corruption as ministers would be beholden to unelected and unaccountable party bosses for their positions. Rather than going that road I think we should be outlawing the systems operated by the Greens, Lab and SF whereby party hacks can direct TDs in the performance of their public duties.

Another likely problem that lists would give rise to is tokenism. There would be irresistible pressure on parties to ensure that their lists were 'balanced'. The list would have to have quotas of women, gays, travellers etc with obvious consequences for quality.

Our criminal legal system is rife with perjury, high cost and inefficiency, an elected DPP or Police commisioners/divisional police chiefs or something of that nature is needed - certainly at district court level, local people understand better what affects them than some guilded barraster

I don't know that our legal system is more prone to perjury than any other and neither is it clear that it's abnormally costly or inefficient. Even it it was though, I'm not sure that having elected DPPs or police would improve things. More the opposite I'd imagine.

The overriding concern of the legal system ought to be to ensure that the state doesn't cause injustices. Choosing law officers from the ranks of amateurs who depend on appeal to popular whims would hugely increase the risk of abuse and miscarriage of justice.

We wouldn't use elections to pick surgeons so why would we think it the right way to pick legal professionals?