Constitutional convention

[fluffybiscuits]

Well there is change needed to certainly look at the human rights issues that are outstanding. We have yet to legislate properly for the X case which may leave some women in limbo, gay marriage which needs to be decided as the gay community are not covered by adoption and inheritance rights. We could assign a smaller team of TD's to look at it and decide what needs looking at.

[cdgalwegian]

We are in a crisis, political more so then anything else. As it stands the people who run this country at various levels and the people who live in it show few signs of learning from it. Until that happens we should keep clear setting anything in stone. There is a case for having "a conversation" about what kind of Ireland we want to live in but as it stands thousands of people don't even know what kind of Ireland we already live in.

The CC would be perfectly sensible in a well run democracy as an efficient way of tackling longstanding thorny issues that get thrown into the long grass- as a way of cutting through political stagnation on single issues. However, it sidesteps the issue of radical poliitcal reform of our crony capitalist political system, based on local clientelism.
More important would be this:

From 2nd republic
http://www.2nd-republic.ie/files/citizens_assembly.pdf

- the Citizen's Assembly part, not the 2nd Republic part.

Apropos this:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...306300135.html

REFORMS: A CITIZENS’ assembly drawn from the electoral register will be a part of the constitutional convention which will be announced in the coming weeks, Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan has said.

The assembly will provide a voice from the public in considering changes to the Constitution – the details of which will be revealed by Taoiseach Enda Kenny in the next two to three weeks.

Radical political reform need not require a complete constitutional reboot, which would be a monumental long-term task. A change in institutional mechanisms could bring about radical political reform without radical constitutional surgery in the shorter term. Would a reboot be like a full-frontal lobotomy to the Irish political psyche? (I would like a full bottle in front of me, rather than a full frontal lobotomy. )
We, as a conservative nation, fear change. Perhaps instead of a constitutional big-bang,we could have a regular CC, say 5-7 yearly?
The trouble with political change in this country of course, is rooted in the inertia tied to local clientelism- the subject-matter of the 'Catch-22 in Irish Politics' thread:
http://www.politicalworld.org/showth...light=catch-22

[Count Bobulescu]

How will it help us keep control of politicians?

Random selection, rather then election, and citizens' power of recall?

I wasn’t suggesting abolishing elections, unless of course I can be the boss. Recall would be good.

A short well drafted and concise Constitution makes for fewer but more clearly defined disputes that limit the influence the pols can have. That’s one reason why SCOTUS gets by on about eighty cases a year in the most litigious country in the world. By contrast, Maryland’s highest court sitting just thirty miles away from SCOTUS and dealing with a 47,000 word Constitution issued 406 opinions in 2011. Over time, that gets to be burdensome.

[Anti-Coalition]

The Programme for Government, published on 6 March 2011, and stated:

We will establish a Constitutional Convention to consider comprehensive constitutional reform, with a brief to consider, as a whole or in sub-groups, and report within 12 months on the following:

• Review of our Dáil electoral system.
• Reducing the presidential term to 5 years and aligning it with the local and European elections
• Provision for same-sex marriage.
• Amending the clause on women in the home and encourage greater participation of women in public life.
• Removing blasphemy from the Constitution
• Possible reduction of the voting age.
• Other relevant constitutional amendments that may be recommended by the Convention.

There has been little movement in the year since then, but today The Irish TImes published an Editorial:

THE CABINET has finally agreed “in principle” to establish a constitutional convention and Opposition parties will be consulted on its architecture and agenda. Delay in setting up the convention, along with uncertainty about its composition and remit, is a cause for concern. There should be no more fudging or prevarication: comprehensive political and administrative reform is required if the mistakes of the past are not to be repeated.

I certainly understand the enormous amount of cynacism I have read in the thread so far, but to be honest, it is time to accept that this is going ahead, and we have to make the most of the opportunity - to reclaim some power for the people.

May I suggest that PW take this on board, by setting up a permaent forum on this, divided into sub-categories of different types of proposals for constitutional change. All news stories and other resources need to be centralised and easily accessible - separate from threads that rant on for dozens of pages, ending up nowhere.

I for one would like to focus on environmental and heritage issues, and discuss the idea of the people's constitutional rights to have heritage protected and to live in a healthy environment. A bill of rights, including human rights, also needs to be enumerated.

Let's try and make this an constructive exercise, despite all of the obvious misgivings...

[Anti-Coalition]

We have to pressure the Government to hold a full Constitutional Convention before the next election.

An Opinion piece in the Times today is making it look more and more like this will be a complete sham, unless there is significant public outcry:

Constitutional convention will have its remit severely pruned

What does seem clear however is that the only proposals on which the constitutional assembly will report before the end of this year are the presidential term of office and the voting age. What the Government is actually proposing, far from being a constitutional convention in the true meaning of the phrase, is a hybrid assembly. It is suggesting something that is one part Oireachtas committee and two parts focus group, with an advisory role only and which will, at least initially, deal with what are essentially insignificant constitutional provisions.

[cdgalwegian]

We have to pressure the Government to hold a full Constitutional Convention before the next election.

An Opinion piece in the Times today is making it look more and more like this will be a complete sham, unless there is significant public outcry:

Constitutional convention will have its remit severely pruned

As per the Catch-22 thread- "quelle surprise"

The Programme for Government, published on 6 March 2011, and stated:

There has been little movement in the year since then, but today The Irish TImes published an Editorial:

THE CABINET has finally agreed “in principle” to establish a constitutional convention and Opposition parties will be consulted on its architecture and agenda. Delay in setting up the convention, along with uncertainty about its composition and remit, is a cause for concern.

Quelle surprise.

I certainly understand the enormous amount of cynacism I have read in the thread so far, but to be honest, it is time to accept that this is going ahead, and we have to make the most of the opportunity - to reclaim some power for the people.

May I suggest that PW take this on board, by setting up a permaent forum on this, divided into sub-categories of different types of proposals for constitutional change. All news stories and other resources need to be centralised and easily accessible - separate from threads that rant on for dozens of pages, ending up nowhere.

I for one would like to focus on environmental and heritage issues, and discuss the idea of the people's constitutional rights to have heritage protected and to live in a healthy environment. A bill of rights, including human rights, also needs to be enumerated.

Let's try and make this an constructive exercise, despite all of the obvious misgivings...

A Constitutional Convention will be a top down approach to putting specific issues to bed. It will not have any capacity for any broad-ranging grassroots reforms. Only a Citizen's Assembly can do this democratically, because it uses a bottom-up i.e. grassroots approach to problem identification, followed by grassroots decisions on their resoultions, with the capacity to bypass the Oireachtas.
The Convention is positive in that it is useful to overhaul specific issues, but it is a ruse to maintain the status quo of top-down approaches to poliitcs. It is a sop to democratic reform. I believe even the reference to a Citizen's Assembly mentioned recently is a sop- it'll be pushed towards the end of Government's term, and then the election will be - quelle surprise- about "the economy, stupid". Talk is cheap. Same old, same old.

[Anti-Coalition]

As per the Catch-22 thread- "quelle surprise"



Quelle surprise.



A Constitutional Convention will be a top down approach to putting specific issues to bed. It will not have any capacity for any broad-ranging grassroots reforms. Only a Citizen's Assembly can do this democratically, because it uses a bottom-up i.e. grassroots approach to problem identification, followed by grassroots decisions on their resoultions, with the capacity to bypass the Oireachtas.
The Convention is positive in that it is useful to overhaul specific issues, but it is a ruse to maintain the status quo of top-down approaches to poliitcs. It is a sop to democratic reform. I believe even the reference to a Citizen's Assembly mentioned recently is a sop- it'll be pushed towards the end of Government's term, and then the election will be - quelle surprise- about "the economy, stupid". Talk is cheap. Same old, same old.

You are entirely right. So, maybe it is time we had our own citizen's assembly, like the first Revolutionary Dail. Barring that, demands need to be made on the Government to live up to its promises. Even here on PW, there needs to be a concerted effort to discuss all of the constutional reforms necessary, and spproach this in a direct and organised fashion. The biggest problem I see is not the Government's lack of commitment, but the public's lack of interest.

There is going to be a convention of sorts, and we will be able to participate, in some manner. We need to make sure we are ready to go when it does commence.

[Count Bobulescu]

Listened to radio discussion on the subject of constitutions worldwide. Fewer countries appear to be using the US as a model largely because it is old, but no other constitution is stepping into the breach. Canada and South Africa come closest. Audio at first link below, but not worth listening to. There is however an interesting table showing the most and least commonly included provisions in constitutions. Also, average lifespan of 729 constitutions written since 1946 is just 19 years.

http://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2...s-constitution

Paper on constitutions.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1923556

[fluffybiscuits]

Listened to radio discussion on the subject of constitutions worldwide. Fewer countries appear to be using the US as a model largely because it is old, but no other constitution is stepping into the breach. Canada and South Africa come closest. Audio at first link below, but not worth listening to. There is however an interesting table showing the most and least commonly included provisions in constitutions. Also, average lifespan of 729 constitutions written since 1946 is just 19 years.

http://thekojonnamdishow.org/shows/2...s-constitution

Paper on constitutions.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1923556

The Americans still have a constitution when they were NOT the biggest power...lol@ right to bear arms...

[Dr. FIVE]

Minutes of meeting between Government and opposition on matters concerning the Constitutional Convention

Government Response to Opposition Views on the Proposal to Establish a Constitutional Convention

Introduction

The Government published its proposals for the establishment of a Constitutional Convention on February 28th, following an initial consultation with Opposition representatives. It has since received and reviewed observations on those proposals.

The main issues raised and the Government’s response are set out below.

The Government now proposes to proceed with the establishment of a Constitutional Convention and to propose the necessary resolutions in the Oireachtas as soon as is possible in the current term.

Key Issues Raised and Government Response

Structure and Operation of the Convention

This will be a matter for the Convention itself to determine.

The Government has put arrangements in train to provide a secretariat, accommodation and a budget (€300,000 in 2012) to support the Convention.

While the secretariat will be relatively small, the issue of whether young unemployed people could be given an opportunity to work on the Convention (eg via the Job Bridge programme) will be considered.

It is anticipated that the members will be able to draw on secretarial support, training/education and expert advice as required.

Travel and subsistence expenses of citizen members will be reimbursed.

Provision will also be made by the secretariat for the establishment of a website with the capacity to widely disseminate information, provide interactivity with citizens at home and abroad and broadcast proceedings online as required.

Insufficient Timeframe

Concerns have been expressed that the Convention will have insufficient time to complete its work.

The Government’s view is that the proposed work programme and timeframe are appropriate.

It will of course review this in the light of experience, including in consultation with Opposition representatives.

Chairperson

The Government will seek consensus on the nomination of a Chairperson, in the context of the proposed resolution of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

Additional Topics for Consideration

The Government remains of the view that the topics for discussion should be as outlined in the paper published on February 28th.

It would, however, be prepared to consider whether other topics could be considered at a later date, in the light of experience. The Taoiseach will consult with Opposition representatives and the Chair on the Convention at the appropriate time.

The Role (including Membership and Representation) of Interest Groups or Other Specified Groups

A number of views were expressed that interest groups or specific sections of society should be represented at the Convention. Examples included vulnerable, disadvantaged or marginalised groups, children, people from Northern Ireland (including especially Northern unionists), the diaspora and Ireland’s newest citizens.

The Government is firmly of the view that the Convention should be composed of ordinary citizens and elected representatives, as set out in the paper published on February 28th.

It is not practical to accommodate as members, in a fair and representative manner, all of the groups or sections of society that have been proposed.

However, it is anticipated that interest groups would be able to interact with the Convention, including by making submissions, and that the Chair and Members would be anxious to hear from a representative spectrum of opinion in carrying out their work.

There is specific provision for representation, on an inclusive basis, from Northern Ireland. It is also proposed that there would be active engagement with the diaspora.

The Use of the Electoral Register and/or Polling Company

The approach proposed is the fairest and most effective way of selecting a representative group of 66 citizens to serve on the Convention.

The selection process will be overseen by the independent Chair.

Public Participation in Setting Future Agendas

The process of establishment of the Convention and its actual operation are matters of public debate and an important innovation in public life.

On the assumption that the Convention successfully carries out the work programme assigned to it by the Oireachtas, it seems likely that the question of its future agenda will be the subject of much further public debate.

Commitment to Act on Recommendations

The Government will commit to giving a public response, through the Oireachtas, to each recommendation from the Convention within four months. It will arrange for a debate in the Oireachtas on that response in each case.

In the event the Government accepts a recommendation that the Constitution be amended, the Government’s public response will include a timeframe for the holding of a referendum.

Reference to the Good Friday Agreement and the St Andrews Agreement

The Government agrees that the Good Friday Agreement and the St Andrews Agreement are fundamental to the changed relationships on the island of Ireland and form the cornerstone for the future development of those relationships, especially with Northern Ireland unionists.

They should therefore be referred to in appropriate fashion in the establishing resolution.




7 June, 2012.

[Binn Beal]

I was just reading the news in my crystal ball and I see that:

- the Convention is to produce an interim report by the revised deadline of 2041.
- the Senate has passed a resolution calling for increased pensions for the long-serving members of the Constitutional Quango.
- the dispute over expenses is to be referred to the sub-committee on privileges and perks.

[Dr. FIVE]

Stephen Donnelly suggesting no politicians be involved the constitutional convention.

Best idea of the 31st ‪Dáil‬ so far

[Dr. FIVE]

Patrick O'Donovan complete against that idea reminding the house that politicians are citizens too.

I have my doubts

[Dr. FIVE]

Ming calling for the new constitution to get legislators legislating & empower local gov to fix the pump.

Not a hope I expect ‪

[Ogiol]

Was that seperate thread/forum for constitutional suggestions created?

Empowering local government is fundamental, in my. Give county councils money raising powers and more control over local issues/services. This could go a long way towards the curtailing the parish-pump.

Recall at mid-term is another excellent idea. They have it in venezuela and infact 'recalled' chavez after collecting x amount of signatures (chavez won by 60+%) .

Language rights should also be dealth with explicitely in the constitution, possibly under a human/basic rights section.