The Poverty of the Greek people

[C. Flower]

The protests in Athens are ongoing. Thousands of policemen, Firefighters and coastguards are outside the Ministry of Finance, calling for the

to come out and face the public.
There were serious threats of moving on to Parliament and taking it by storm ( the grannies showed them how a few days ago), other chants were

and


A Golden Dawn representative tried to hijack the whole things and was promptly, and rather heavy handed removed by protesters in police uniform. The shock on the guy's face was priceless. The removal crew was greeted with thundering applause by the other protesters. Good to see!

The symbolic hanging of 1 of each of the groups of protesters did send shivers down the spine of a good few people. It was certainly not very clear if this was meant as symbolism of what they are experiencing in terms of cutbacks etc (which are severe, up to 35%, retro to July 1st), or whether this was a warning for the politicians as to their faith in the near future.


A massive protest is planned in Thessaloniki on Saturday, coinciding with Samaras opening the annual international fair.
There are serious rumours that the Saturday protest will also be attended by lots of military personnel. In fact, thousands of them. They have promised to come unarmed...

I'm following this on twitter - reports of 40,000 plus on the march, and a heavy riot police prescence.

What is the TIF building ?

[Ephilant]

I'm following this on twitter - reports of 40,000 plus on the march, and a heavy riot police prescence.

What is the TIF building ?

Is this the building you're asking about?

It's where the annual Thessaloniki International Fair is held. This the traditional occasion for the Greek PM to hand out presents and promotions to the faithful. Little things like a job in the civil service, the odd envelope here and there, that kind of thing.
True to his personal Greek tragedy, poor old Samaras gets about 50,000 very pissed off civil servants down his neck. His day is not to be...

[C. Flower]

Is this the building you're asking about?

It's where the annual Thessaloniki International Fair is held. This the traditional occasion for the Greek PM to hand out presents and promotions to the faithful. Little things like a job in the civil service, the odd envelope here and there, that kind of thing.
True to his personal Greek tragedy, poor old Samaras gets about 50,000 very pissed off civil servants down his neck. His day is not to be...

The march went past there today did it ?

Just reading about Portugal - it seems to be half way between Greece and Ireland in its progression / disintegration post "bail out" and reaction to it.

[Kev Bar]

I am extremely happy to be able to report that these idiots as seen in the videos are being charged. 3 GD MPs, Giorgos Germenis, Panayiotis Iliopoulos and Costas Barbarousis will have their parliamentary immunity lifted, paving the way for criminal proceedings and investigations (currently stalled by that immunity) into other crimes of which they are suspected.
Public Order Minister Nikos Dendias has order charges to be filed against everybody in the video who can be recognized, and a thorough investigation into the identity of those not immediately recognizable.
One charge these clowns will definitey face is the charge of "usurping authority", which could cost them 4 years in jail each. We live in hope.
the footage has caused uproar in Greece, with many, many people denouncing the actions. From unofficial polls taken after the videos (shot by GD themselves), the brief surge in support to 12% is indeed brief. This looks like a massive shooting in own foot.

Delighted to hear that.

[Ephilant]

The march went past there today did it ?

Just reading about Portugal - it seems to be half way between Greece and Ireland in its progression / disintegration post "bail out" and reaction to it.

Yes, the protest on Saturday was indeed in Thessaloniki. the spoil-sports went and ruined poor old Antonis' day in the lime light.
this International Fair is THE highlight of the business year in Greece, attended by all who wish to bribe Greek politicians and high ranking civil servants in return for juicy contracts.
Samaras went to declare Greece "open for business" while the Greek police, army, fire fighters, coastguards, civil service and thousands of ordinary citizens brought the whole place to a stand still outside.

Instead of a rousing speech, as is customary, Samaras was limited to declaring the Fair and Greece open for business, adding with serious wishful thinking in his voice that "after the next tranche (of bailout money) is received, there will be liquidity".
He failed to mention that there will be absolutely no liquidity in the pockets of ordinary Greek people who find it almost impossible to put a decent meal on the table and cannot afford to buy the fuel to heat their homes during the coming winter...

On that last point, the price of home heating oil is going to double in October, because of taxes raised on it. Anybody thinking to be smart and buy the stuff now can't. There will not be a supply of home heating oil available until October (after the price rise).
Bulgaria is meanwhile doing a roaring trade in firewood with Greece, and many, many people have invested a fraction of the money they would have to pay for the home heating fuel on solid fuel burners, usually wood stoves, and are adapting their houses to this new heating method.

[gerard25]

BBC has done a great piece on the suffering of the Greek people . I did'nt want to place this in the other Greek threads as its the human side of the economic collapse. Parents are giving their children either up for adoption, foster or are just abandoning them all together. These are the human face of the economic crisis that is crippling Greece at the moment. 27% of Greece is below the poverty line and this is going to continue to drop.

So the poverty is just crawling its way up from Africa to Europe? that is bad news for everyone

[C. Flower]

So the poverty is just crawling its way up from Africa to Europe? that is bad news for everyone

Globalisation - manufacturing has shifted to China. The wealth of the west was based on manufacturing. Mechanisation - there is less skilled and well-paid manufacturing work. Finance is international and it is easy to evade tax. The wealth gap between classes is increasing.

For a long time, the west tried to deal with this by printing money and reducing interest rates. The crash put a halt to that. The plan in the West is to drive down wages, and to reduce the amount of democracy and civil rights accordingly. In China, the push is to increase wages and get more rights. We drift seems set to meet somewhere in the middle, unless of course we decide to go a very different route.

[Ephilant]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w...09/2012_460191

This is only one of the many. Cheap labour is on the move, North, as predicted.
We have broken all unemployment records now as well, overall 24%+, under 25s, nearly 58%.
These figures are calculated on the amount of people receiving unemployment benefit. those who have gone past the 12 months, or those who have emigrated, are not included in the percentages...

[gerard25]

Globalisation - manufacturing has shifted to China. The wealth of the west was based on manufacturing. Mechanisation - there is less skilled and well-paid manufacturing work. Finance is international and it is easy to evade tax. The wealth gap between classes is increasing.

I can't agree more, most international companies have shifted their factories to China to take advantage of the Cheap Labour and to gain a competitive edge in the global market. As a result, china had a consistent positive GDP growth for the last 32 years.

GDP Growth in China

For a long time, the west tried to deal with this by printing money and reducing interest rates. The crash put a halt to that. The plan in the West is to drive down wages, and to reduce the amount of democracy and civil rights accordingly. In China, the push is to increase wages and get more rights. We drift seems set to meet somewhere in the middle, unless of course we decide to go a very different route.

Interesting way to look at how the global economies are changing, so what happens next? Are the creative European minds going to turn this crisis around? or are we still heading down?

How can Europe and United States take back the growth they have given away?

[Ephilant]

How can Europe and United States take back the growth they have given away?

As far as Merkel, Schauble & Co are concerned, the only way is total dismantling of the welfare state, and total dismantling of all social and health benefits that any working person has. Plus a severe reduction in pay, without any protection or rights.
We know all about it here. Something has to give. So far, what has been giving is people. Emigration, 3 suicides a day, racism, fascism, you name it. The ugly side of poverty is very much visible. But we are only the tip of the ice berg.
I dread another winter like last year. Our food kitchen can barely hold it's own, just not enough food. The 3 shelters are full to capacity and people are knocking on the door.
The municipality wanted to give us an old school building as a 4th shelter, but are not allowed. It has to be sold off to raise money for the banks...

People are at their whit's end, and it is only going to go one way. They will take what they can't get in order to survive. Greece will hit the headlines again, before long. People are afraid, and they've had enough.

[fluffybiscuits]

So the poverty is just crawling its way up from Africa to Europe? that is bad news for everyone

Hi gerard

Poverty is slowly but surely taking a grip here in Ireland, its more or less spreading not geographically but down to those in the lower echelons of the social strata across Europe. Already in Ireland Focus Ireland are telling us homeless rates are shooting up

Yes, the protest on Saturday was indeed in Thessaloniki. the spoil-sports went and ruined poor old Antonis' day in the lime light.
this International Fair is THE highlight of the business year in Greece, attended by all who wish to bribe Greek politicians and high ranking civil servants in return for juicy contracts.
Samaras went to declare Greece "open for business" while the Greek police, army, fire fighters, coastguards, civil service and thousands of ordinary citizens brought the whole place to a stand still outside.

Instead of a rousing speech, as is customary, Samaras was limited to declaring the Fair and Greece open for business, adding with serious wishful thinking in his voice that "after the next tranche (of bailout money) is received, there will be liquidity".
He failed to mention that there will be absolutely no liquidity in the pockets of ordinary Greek people who find it almost impossible to put a decent meal on the table and cannot afford to buy the fuel to heat their homes during the coming winter...

On that last point, the price of home heating oil is going to double in October, because of taxes raised on it. Anybody thinking to be smart and buy the stuff now can't. There will not be a supply of home heating oil available until October (after the price rise).
Bulgaria is meanwhile doing a roaring trade in firewood with Greece, and many, many people have invested a fraction of the money they would have to pay for the home heating fuel on solid fuel burners, usually wood stoves, and are adapting their houses to this new heating method.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012...tem-in-greece/

Greek Reporter is saying that bureaucracy is keeping the flow of wood from Bulgaria down to two trucks a day and could easily be twelve trucks if it was not for all the red tape . Perhaps someone with a business interest is keen to see Greek firewood for sale ! I thought with it being EU the transporting of the goods would all be a mere formality. Anyways cant blame the Greek people, they are trying to survive. Home heating oil is an essential product but I fear with the impending situation in Iran that home heating oil is going to get a lot more expensive...

[disability student]

They (ECB/IMF/FG/Lab) are obsessed with the term 'growth', which was/is filled with illusion and un-reality. Their thinking ... deluded and misguided. If you want to achieve growth, so you have to remove huge overhanging debt first before 'growth' could proceed further.

It's a huge neo-liberal project by the ECB/EU/IMF with a vision for future federal superstate. It's too grandoise and very political project irrespective of our economic ill's.

[Ephilant]

Hi gerard

Poverty is slowly but surely taking a grip here in Ireland, its more or less spreading not geographically but down to those in the lower echelons of the social strata across Europe. Already in Ireland Focus Ireland are telling us homeless rates are shooting up




http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012...tem-in-greece/

Greek Reporter is saying that bureaucracy is keeping the flow of wood from Bulgaria down to two trucks a day and could easily be twelve trucks if it was not for all the red tape . Perhaps someone with a business interest is keen to see Greek firewood for sale ! I thought with it being EU the transporting of the goods would all be a mere formality. Anyways cant blame the Greek people, they are trying to survive. Home heating oil is an essential product but I fear with the impending situation in Iran that home heating oil is going to get a lot more expensive...

Greece and Bulgaria have always had a "difficult" relationship. You think corruption is bad here (you're right), you haven't seen anything yet. Remember the story in another thread about AIB and it's Bulgarian bank adventures?
that's the way these guys do business. They don't even bother to hide the Kalashnikov. The amount of stuff making it's way across the border from Greece is unreal. The other week two guys were caught stealing 30 tonnes worth of railway bridge (from an operational line!), to be sold in Bulgaria for scrap!
Also, nearly 6000 SME's have moved from Greece to Bulgaria, because of the low taxes, easy of setting up, and the oh so familiar practice of Fakelaki.
The Greek authorities will make any trade with Bulgaria as difficult as they possibly can, if for no other reason than revenge. Revenge for what? anything, you name it, it's a good reason...
Meanwhile, we, as a nation, are absolutely dreading winter. Fuel to stay warm is a basic right. So is a roof over your head. Try telling that to the estimated 35,000 homeless in Athens alone.
Between our 3 shelters we are now topping the 900. And we are supposed to be one of the most affluent areas in Greece, officially "untouched" by the recession.
They really do want to come down from their Ivory Tower and have a good look at how "untouched" we are.

[Ephilant]

Is it finally beginning to sink in? It would seem so...

President Karolos Papoulias:

The Greek people have suffered great sacrifices. I think they have reached their limit. The patience and bravery with which they have faced the situation is admirable. Until now we have sustained merciless whipping. I think we have paid for our mistakes enough. Europe needs to understand that Greece needs help. And not just Greece, but Spain, Portugal and Ireland, to overcome the economic crisis.
Our greatest concern is social cohesion and that the economic crisis does not evolve into a crisis of democracy and democratic institutions.
Dark forces take advantage of such situations to put themselves forward and amass power, which they could never acquire when a democracy is experiencing a period of prosperity and progress.

And as he mentions Portugal, news from a Portuguese friend. Under the new "rules", workers in Portugal will be hit with an increase of 63% on their social security contributions. However:

its being treated like a “tax” and not a contribution

with which she means that the money thus raised will go directly toward paying bank debt instead of toward the workers social benefits...

[fluffybiscuits]

Is it finally beginning to sink in? It would seem so...

President Karolos Papoulias:


And as he mentions Portugal, news from a Portuguese friend. Under the new "rules", workers in Portugal will be hit with an increase of 63% on their social security contributions. However:with which she means that the money thus raised will go directly toward paying bank debt instead of toward the workers social benefits...

That is going to turn Portugal into Greece Mark 2...