The Poverty of the Greek people

[C. Flower]

Here is a story which just came off the ticker:

http://klauskastner.blogspot.co.at/2...al-sector.html

Very interesting - an Alice through the Looking Glass story.

If the Eurozone countries had all defaulted instead of taking bail outs/loan programmes, there would have been impacts on more than just the German banks. France and the UK, and of course the US who insured the debt, amongst others, and many others.

What do you think the outcome would have been ?

But it is a good read.

[Ephilant]

http://klauskastner.blogspot.co.at/2...al-sector.html

Breaking News! Mars' financial sector headed for collapse!
Unnoticed by the human race, the men and women of Mars had developed a huge economy over the last decades. They were working, working and working; producing, producing and producing; and exporting, exporting and exporting. Exporting to Greece & Co.

As payment for their exports, they accepted sovereign bonds denominated in Euros. Since they had no use for those Euros on Mars, they lent them to Greece & Co. The men and women of Mars had become savers and they also thought that they had become rich.

One day, the Martian banking system started fearing that all those sovereign bonds might default. The Martian government sent an urgent message to the EU Commission telling them to urgently bail out Greece & Co. so that a collapse of the Martian banking system could be avoided. The EU Commission replied post haste:

“That seems to be your problem and not ours”.

The Martians threatened to drive Greece & Co. into default; expel them from all international financial transactions and, essentially, run their economies into the ground. The EU Commission replied, more slowly this time:

“Do what you think is right and what you can be responsible for. Don’t worry about the economies of Greece & Co. We will keep them alive by financing their ongoing needs as a preferred creditor”.

At this point, the Martians realized that they had to act like beggars. They politely requested the EU Commission to bail out the Martian banking sector. The EU Commission replied, again with some delay:

“Ok; we’ll do that. Here are the terms: 99% ownership of the banks and total control over management and business policies. The right to sell off the banks after they have been restructured to anyone of our choosing”.

The first thing the new owners of the Martian banking sector did was to forgive Greece & Co. all their sovereign debt. And the next thing was to work out economic restructuring plans for Greece & Co. as the condition to finance those countries’ ongoing financing needs.

All shareholders of all Martian banks were wiped out. Even all of their bondholders were wiped out. This on the grounds that they were considered as “professional market participants” and should have known what risks they were taking. Luckily for regular Martian savers, a solution was found where regular savers did not lose any money.

The biggest flaws in the whole story is of course assuming that such a presumeably advanced society would indeed simply produce, produce, produce without due regard for

1) the actual need of what is being produced (Do we need this?)
2) the effect on society in general of what is being produced (Medical advances versus weapons, porn, etc.)
3) the effect on society in general of how things are being produced (Strip mining, nuclear waste, etc)
4) the effect on other societies of this unchecked drive to produce, produce, produce and export, export, export. (All of the above)

I would have thought that a civilized society would at least have asked and answered the question "Do we, and do others really need this?" before unleashing this fury of production on themselves and others. Would all that time and energy not be better used on other things a society needs, e.g proper education facilities, proper health care facilites, etc?

A further flaw in this assumedly advanced society is the assumption that "becoming rich" in a narrow financial sense is a valid, legitimate objective for any society, given that the "becoming rich" is obviously as a result of taking more than a fair share of "richness" of another society, iow, increased richness is ALWAYS as a result of the increased poverty of somebody else. It would seem that this advanced society operates on a system of theft by stealth, also known as marketing, rather than open honesty.

Of course, this assummedly "advanced" society also seems to operate under the false assumption that any loss incurred by that society from that society's very own actions should be paid for by any society other than themselves.

The proposed civilisation sounds a little too much like present day Earth for comfort.

[C. Flower]

The Martians are uncannily like the Germans of the last ten years.

Luckily for regular Martian savers, a solution was found where regular savers did not lose any money.

This is surely a flaw in the story. Much of the highly toxic bubble - inducing debt that flowed out of Germany and other wealthy states originated from perfectly innocent savings, and the requirement to top them up with interest.

Timothy Geithner is also left out. The US has strenuously objected to default which would be paid for by US debt insurers.

There is no solution to the current crisis that could ensure that all "innocent parties" hold on to their wealth, but what we could do is default in an orderly way, as much as possible by agreement but otherwise unilaterally, and prioritise the resources we have to make sure that nobody is going hungry, or homeless, or without education and health services.
That would mean a very different tax regime to the one that has been pushed across Europe by the neo liberals.

[Ephilant]

Tax evasion is still a major problem in Greece, and Joe Soap is getting hammered in every possible way to make up the short fall. A recent study by economists Nikolaos Artavanis, Adair Morse and Margarita Tsoutsoura used bank records to analyse tax evasion’s role in the Greek debt crisis. This method is also used by banks to determine "true" income before extending credit, as opposed to simply relying on stated income. The latter is the method used by the revenue, they simply rely on tax records to determine tax liabilities.

The study revealed a few very interesting facts.Not so long ago, a law was proposed in which specifically doctors, lawyers and engineers would be targettted through this method to determine their real income and therefore tax liabilites. The law was not passed by parliament.
Parliament members are almost exclusively doctors, lawyers or engineers...

The Greek government is being heavily pressured by the EU to find an extra 11.2 billion in "savings".
the amount of taxes evaded by the group of doctors, lawyers and engineers is determined by the economists as being, indeed 11.2 billion!

So far, despite having the legal authority to do so, no bank records have been examined by revenue inspectors...

[Ephilant]

You'll be hearing more and more of this kind of thing happening, and not just in Greece. Young people just have had enough..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-19289566

And it is excellent news!

[fluffybiscuits]

You'll be hearing more and more of this kind of thing happening, and not just in Greece. Young people just have had enough..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-radio-and-tv-19289566

And it is excellent news!

People working together, nice

1000 people a day losing jobs though

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.thejournal.ie/greece-sell...69415-Aug2012/

Seems the German bullies are out again in force. This time the idea is being mooted that some of the Greek islands may be sold. The idea was floated a few years back and Greece told them to get stuffed but things may be different now. How viable is such an idea? A lot of the islands are uninhabited for a reason,they are not habitable!...

[TotalMayhem]

Merkel has great sympathy for the poor Greek pensioners:

"My heart is bleeding"

[Ephilant]

We have just officially become the leaders in Europe in something!
Our youth unemployment has reached 53.8%!
This does not take into account the estimated 600.000 young people who have left the country in the last year, neither does it take into account those who are not registered as "unemployed", as that requires getting unemployment money. Meaning, every person under the age of 25 who is unemployed for a year or more is not included in this statistic.
At the same time, the rumoured agreement on more austerity to come up with 11.5 billion extra savings is causing serious anxiety with the Greek people. So far we know that pensions will, depending on what's left of them, get another horizontal cut of up to 20%.
Wage cuts for the "uniformed" civil servants are rumoured to be in the region of 15% (on a average monthly wage of 430 Euro), "perks" like holiday pay and Christmas pay will be stopped.
20.000 to 30.000 civil servant will lose their jobs between now and Dec 2012.
Another 100.000 will follow in 2014-2015.
Health care is being "reformed" with a private company taking over the free-phone number that used to be available to people who have their social security contribution (a minimum of 182 per month) deducted at source. From now on, calling for a doctor, ambulance, etc. will cost 1 euro per call. Nobody really knows who this private company is, but rumours say it's Deutsche Telecom in disguise, trying to recoup their investment of nearly 5 billion in OTE. Obviously T&C's don't apply here, and the sentence "The value of your investment may go down as well as up" has never been heard.

I wonder why Samaras is such a willing party in the obviously willful destruction of Greece. There is no doubt in any Greek mind that this is the case, and I hate to think what the short term result of all this is going to be. One thing is certain, whatever it will be, nice and peaceful is not it.

[Ephilant]

Holidays are definitely over. Today, we heard from the biggest two-faced bastards ever to walk this earth, the IMF.
After pushing draconian austerity measures on the people of this country with total disregards of the consequences thereof, today, Mr. Gerry Rice, spokesman for the IMF stated that the IMF was consciously aware of the problems the country faces and was advising the government on ways to implement the further austerity measures needed in such a way that

IT HELPS TO PROTECT THE MOST VULNERABLE GROUPS

So Mr. Rice, where do we start? How about by paying taxes somewhere yourselves. Anywhere, putting your money where your mouth is and carrying your fair share of responsibility would be a good start.
Just before winter, and with last years toll of 19 people freezing to death in Greece, how about undoing the doubling of the price of home heating oil, and offsetting it with let's say a extra 500 Euro/year tax on swimming pools. That is guaranteed not going to hit the poor of this country.
And while you're at it, collect the back tax from the 16,650 swimming pools in Athens alone which were never declared as existing until you started analyzing aerial photographs and discovered them in 2009, but have yet to approach the owners for a "few bob".
And how about a gun tax, as it would seem that on average every Greek owns at least 1 fire arm. Strangely enough, they seem to be concentrated in the same areas as the swimming pools...
And how about a doubling if not trebling of car tax on anything over 1800cc? That is certain not to hit the poorer groups in the country.

By your own admission, you have not collected over 30 billion worth of outstanding taxes on luxury items like swimming pools, yachts, etc. And while you do that, and get nearly 3 times what you say you need (11.5 billion), wouldn't that leave some wiggle room to let's say drop the price of electricity for those who can't afford it? You obviously know who they are, as you are so concerned about them...

But instead, those very same poorer groups in Greek society have once again been hit hardest by the latest round of austerity measures leaked today.
As I said, the biggest bunch of two-faced bastards ever...

[Kev Bar]

It is of course a tad unsightly to be seen kicking those who are down.

[Ephilant]

Although we still don't know the full details of this, we now have been given the broad figures of the "savings"

- 4.5 billion euros in pension cuts
- 1.2 billion euros in cuts to the wages
- 1 billion euros in cuts to social benefits
- 1.4 billion euros off health spending
- 1.2 billion euros off state administrative costs

No cuts in government perks, ministerial wages and/or perks, military budget (existing contracts must be honoured, isn't that so Angela with the bleeding heart?), no targetting of the rich and beautiful, no enforcing of tax collection on many large foreign corporations who are painfully blatant tax defaulters, no mention of reducing or eliminating the state's exposure to the cost of running the Church (Priests are paid by the state).
But it is of course all done in such a way that these latest measures protect the poorest in our society....

[Ephilant]

The new austerity measures have not been implemented yet, but if the continuing effect of the old ones is anything to go by, Greece is not going to be a good or safe place to be in the very near future.
The Labour inspectorate has released figures today on payments to workers, and they make a sickening and scary read.

- Over 400,000 people receive their wages more than 3 months late.

- An undisclosed amount of people get paid in "tranches", iow they get a fraction of their wages and the rest will follow "when things go better". I have heard of people officially working for 500 Euro a month, who in reality received 75 Euro pay and are being told they will have to wait for the rest. I personally know a young woman "working" for an international clothes chain who received her pay packet yesterday, containing 20 Euro. They "can't afford the rest right now". It works out that this 26 year old worked for the grand total of 9 cents per hour in August.

When I asked her why she keeps going back there she told me that bad and depressing as it is, it's not as bad as sitting at home staring at the ceiling or the pile of bills on the floor. She has stopped opening the bills, expects to be cut off from the electricity any day now, and hasn't a hope of catching up with any arrears that are building up. Last year she and her boyfriend were making plans to get married and have a family. Today, he is gone, without a trace. She stares at a ceiling, either at home or at work.

Why do people take this crap? Personally I can only suggest they are so shell shocked they simply have stopped thinking and have gone on to auto pilot. But that will only last so long, and the smallest trigger will release all that suppressed anger and frustration. And all it takes is one to spark of the rest. Dark times ahead for Greece.
But of course, the Troika are advising the Greek government on how to spare the most vulnerable in society. They might want to review their policies with some urgency...

[fluffybiscuits]

Although we still don't know the full details of this, we now have been given the broad figures of the "savings"

- 4.5 billion euros in pension cuts
- 1.2 billion euros in cuts to the wages
- 1 billion euros in cuts to social benefits
- 1.4 billion euros off health spending
- 1.2 billion euros off state administrative costs

No cuts in government perks, ministerial wages and/or perks, military budget (existing contracts must be honoured, isn't that so Angela with the bleeding heart?), no targetting of the rich and beautiful, no enforcing of tax collection on many large foreign corporations who are painfully blatant tax defaulters, no mention of reducing or eliminating the state's exposure to the cost of running the Church (Priests are paid by the state).
But it is of course all done in such a way that these latest measures protect the poorest in our society....

Merkel wouldnt dare tackle the issue of the military overspending on weaponry, it would mean that there would be too much damage to German industry. On a footnote to the point about military spending, Greece in terms of overall spending on the military as a percentage of GDP spends in the region of 2.1% which is higher than the Americans. That is some figure , its be touted as the second highest in the world (http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=49185). There is also a common trend, the people with the swimming pools and the arms are not being taxed, the rich are gettng away with paying little and the working man being robbed from his back pocket, sounds like the Irish and the Greek finance minsiters must have had the same economics tutors to some degree.

Are Unions not getting involved more on blockading work places that are not paying staff? Is this international clothes seller well known, could we not let the unions here know so they could make a point if this is a widespread practice in Greece? Mandate are a union here who stood up to apartheid in the 80's in South Africa, we could raise the profile a bit.

[riposte]

THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING ... Capitalism ..IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING......... Has ..... IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING .... Swallowed .... COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING ........Itself ..... IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING ...... Whole .....IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING
THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING THE CRUNCH IS COMING

© Michael O'Flanagan Sept 2012.