The Poverty of the Greek people

[Ephilant]

For someone who doesnt like socialism you spend an awful lot of time on here. Perhaps you are wishing you were one of us?

@bormotello. you are also spending an awful lot of time constantly disrupting threads with totally irrelevant soundbites. As suggested before, maybe start your own thread and stick tot that to promote your agenda?

[Spectabilis]

David O’Donnell posted this gem today on irisheconomy.ie from a piece by Wolfgang Luef.

Greece, it seems, has Argentina as its negative reference point, or at least so Minister Stournaras says:


“Lucinda’s Competition …

‘In the midst of the eurozone crisis, we’re fortunate to have politicians who can tell us how things stand, ironises the Süddeutsche Zeitung, with this list of choice quotes.

Wolfgang Luef

“Russia is not Greece.” (Vladimir Putin, Russian Prime Minister, March 2010).
“France is not Greece.” (Christian Lagarde, director of the International Monetary Fund, May 2010).
“Portugal is not Greece, and Spain is not Greece.” (Jean-Claude Trichet, President of the European Central Bank, May 2010).
“Spain is not Greece. But Greece is where it is thanks to a policy like Zapatero’s policy in Spain.” Mariano Rajoy, leader of the Spanish opposition, May 2010).
“Hungary is not in the same situation as Greece.” (Olli Rehn, EU Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs, June 2010).
“Hungary is quite obviously not Greece.” (Gyorgy Matolcsy, Hungarian Finance Minister, June 2010).
“Spain is neither Ireland nor Portugal.” (Elena Salgado, Spanish Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is neither Spain nor Portugal.” (Angel Gurria, OECD Secretary-General, November 2010).
“Ireland is not Greece.” (Angela Merkel, German Chancellor, November 2010).
“Greece is not Ireland.” (Giorgos Papakonstantinou, Greek Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is not in Greek territory.” (Brian Lenihan, Irish Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is not Greece.” (Michael Noonan, Irish Minister of Finance, June 2011).
“France is not Greece and it’s not Italy either.” (Barry Eichengreen, American economist, August 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Rainer Bruederle, Germany’s FDP parliamentary party leader, August 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Silvio Berlusconi, Italian Prime Minister, October 2011).
“Austria is not Greece.” (Karlheinz Kopf, parliamentary faction leader of Austria’s People’s Party, November 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Christian Lindner, FDP general secretary, November 2011).
“Portugal is not Greece, and it will not turn into Greece.” (Antonio Saraiva, head of the Confederation of Portuguese Industry, February 2012).
“Spain is not Greece.” (Richard Youngs, head of the Madrid-based think tank FRIDE, May 2012).
“Portugal is not Greece.” (Pedro Passos Coelho, Portuguese Prime Minister, June 2012).
“Italy is not Spain.” (Ed Parker, senior director of Fitch Ratings Agency, June 2012).
“Greece is not Argentina.” (Yiannis Stournaras, Greek Minister of Competition, July 2012).
“Germany is not Zimbabwe.” (Paul Casson, fund manager from Henderson Global Investors, June 2012).
“Spain is not Uganda.” (Mariano Rajoy, Spanish Prime Minister, June 2012).
“Uganda does not want to be Spain.” (Asuman Kiyingi, Foreign Minister of Uganda, June 2012).’
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/2409211-what-must-be-said “

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php...deal/#comments

[C. Flower]

David O’Donnell posted this gem today on irisheconomy.ie from a piece by Wolfgang Luef.

Greece, it seems, has Argentina as its negative reference point, or at least so Minister Stournaras says:


“Lucinda’s Competition …

‘In the midst of the eurozone crisis, we’re fortunate to have politicians who can tell us how things stand, ironises the Süddeutsche Zeitung, with this list of choice quotes.

Wolfgang Luef

“Russia is not Greece.” (Vladimir Putin, Russian Prime Minister, March 2010).
“France is not Greece.” (Christian Lagarde, director of the International Monetary Fund, May 2010).
“Portugal is not Greece, and Spain is not Greece.” (Jean-Claude Trichet, President of the European Central Bank, May 2010).
“Spain is not Greece. But Greece is where it is thanks to a policy like Zapatero’s policy in Spain.” Mariano Rajoy, leader of the Spanish opposition, May 2010).
“Hungary is not in the same situation as Greece.” (Olli Rehn, EU Commissioner for Economic and Monetary Affairs, June 2010).
“Hungary is quite obviously not Greece.” (Gyorgy Matolcsy, Hungarian Finance Minister, June 2010).
“Spain is neither Ireland nor Portugal.” (Elena Salgado, Spanish Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is neither Spain nor Portugal.” (Angel Gurria, OECD Secretary-General, November 2010).
“Ireland is not Greece.” (Angela Merkel, German Chancellor, November 2010).
“Greece is not Ireland.” (Giorgos Papakonstantinou, Greek Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is not in Greek territory.” (Brian Lenihan, Irish Minister of Finance, November 2010).
“Ireland is not Greece.” (Michael Noonan, Irish Minister of Finance, June 2011).
“France is not Greece and it’s not Italy either.” (Barry Eichengreen, American economist, August 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Rainer Bruederle, Germany’s FDP parliamentary party leader, August 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Silvio Berlusconi, Italian Prime Minister, October 2011).
“Austria is not Greece.” (Karlheinz Kopf, parliamentary faction leader of Austria’s People’s Party, November 2011).
“Italy is not Greece.” (Christian Lindner, FDP general secretary, November 2011).
“Portugal is not Greece, and it will not turn into Greece.” (Antonio Saraiva, head of the Confederation of Portuguese Industry, February 2012).
“Spain is not Greece.” (Richard Youngs, head of the Madrid-based think tank FRIDE, May 2012).
“Portugal is not Greece.” (Pedro Passos Coelho, Portuguese Prime Minister, June 2012).
“Italy is not Spain.” (Ed Parker, senior director of Fitch Ratings Agency, June 2012).
“Greece is not Argentina.” (Yiannis Stournaras, Greek Minister of Competition, July 2012).
“Germany is not Zimbabwe.” (Paul Casson, fund manager from Henderson Global Investors, June 2012).
“Spain is not Uganda.” (Mariano Rajoy, Spanish Prime Minister, June 2012).
“Uganda does not want to be Spain.” (Asuman Kiyingi, Foreign Minister of Uganda, June 2012).’
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/2409211-what-must-be-said “

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php...deal/#comments

They can't be stopped...

Unfortunately, it’s a complete load of tosh, as City broker Fairfax reminded us by circulating a list of quotes that speak for themselves:
“Spain is not Greece.” Elena Salgado, Spanish finance minister, February 2010.
“Portugal is not Greece.” The Economist, April 2010.
“Greece is not Ireland.” George Papaconstantinou, Greek finance minister, November, 2010.
“Spain is neither Ireland nor Portugal.” Elena Salgado, November 2010.
“Ireland is not in 'Greek Territory.’” Brian Lenihan, Irish finance minister, November 2010.
“Neither Spain nor Portugal is Ireland.” Angel Gurria, OECD secretary-general, November, 2010.
“Italy is not Spain.” Ed Parker, Fitch director, June 2012.

[Ephilant]

So, once they've figured out who is who, will we then know why WE pay?

[Ephilant]

YOU ARE NOT ALONE!

Greece now has it's very own "Bad" Bank. It has been confirmed that Piraeus Bank will be taking over the "Healthy" assets of ATE-bank. A little background here on ATE. It's the Greek Agricultural bank which gave some 90 € million to ND and 130 € million to PASOK in unsecured loans. The only criteria taken into account was the money the parties MIGHT get after an election.
To clarify that one, the first thing political parties in Greece do after an election is rob the tax payer of a few million € to cover "the election expenses" and "the continued running of the party".
They also give themselves a good few million before an election, to cover the "immediate expenses" of an election. Over the last 2 elections the parties gave themselves a comibined 100 € million for "immediate expenses", after the elcetion they divied up another whack of uncollected taxpayers money to keep themselves going. The "continued running of the party" money depends on the amount of seats the get in parliament, and of course, the 50 seat bonus is a real bonus here...
Based on that potential windfall, the parties received generous loans from the bank, and now of course there are problems paying this back because especially PASOK didn't do all that well...

The take-over by Piraeus bank is a God sent. Made Gods sending even. The loans to the parties are not considered "Healthy Assests" and will end up in the Bad Bank. And as you know, Bad Banks somehow end up being the responsibility of Joe Soap...

[Ephilant]

This just has to be one of the sickest episodes so far.
Proto Thema, the Greek language news portal carries the story of Minas Hatzidakis, and unemployed father of 7 from Iraklio, Crete.
in 2008 Minas closed his business because of the economic downturn, and became unemployed. 3 Months later his wife lost her job in Iraklio, and found she could not get unemployment money because of unpaid social contributions to Labour Authority (OAEE). With the help of friends and relations (some known to me), Minas and his family were kept alive, but not much more.

On Tuesday night Minas heard a knock on the door. When he opened up, he found himslef facing the sherriffs who demanded he either pay €5,000 in unpaid taxes, or go to jail. Which is where he is now.
In the time when tax evasion has become the national sport of the rich, when 2 of the 3 government parties turn 200 million € of party debt into a debt to be paid by the Greek people, this man gets put in jail because he can;'t pay his taxes. The employer who never paid the social security taxes for his wife , and who lives in the same town, still happily drives around in his flashy car, entertains friends and busines relations, and lives the good live. Minas is in jail, his wife and 7 children now being supported by family and the civic solidarity movement of which Minas was is an outspoken member.

[eamo]

This just has to be one of the sickest episodes so far.
Proto Thema, the Greek language news portal carries the story of Minas Hatzidakis, and unemployed father of 7 from Iraklio, Crete.
in 2008 Minas closed his business because of the economic downturn, and became unemployed. 3 Months later his wife lost her job in Iraklio, and found she could not get unemployment money because of unpaid social contributions to Labour Authority (OAEE). With the help of friends and relations (some known to me), Minas and his family were kept alive, but not much more.

On Tuesday night Minas heard a knock on the door. When he opened up, he found himslef facing the sherriffs who demanded he either pay €5,000 in unpaid taxes, or go to jail. Which is where he is now.
In the time when tax evasion has become the national sport of the rich, when 2 of the 3 government parties turn 200 million € of party debt into a debt to be paid by the Greek people, this man gets put in jail because he can;'t pay his taxes. The employer who never paid the social security taxes for his wife , and who lives in the same town, still happily drives around in his flashy car, entertains friends and busines relations, and lives the good live. Minas is in jail, his wife and 7 children now being supported by family and the civic solidarity movement of which Minas was is an outspoken member.

Thus is it always, one law for the rich, another for the poor.
Is it because he was an activist in the civic solidarity movement that he was targeted, or is this happening on a wide scale?

[Ephilant]

Thus is it always, one law for the rich, another for the poor.
Is it because he was an activist in the civic solidarity movement that he was targeted, or is this happening on a wide scale?

This could have as many reasons as there are stars in the sky. It can be as simple as not having paid fakelaki to the right person (fakelaki = little envelope) or looked crooked at some guys wife or sister, or anything. But the good news just in is that like the previous time, in the same town, the local judge isn't having any of it. Last time the manager of a foreign supermarket was told were to go when he brought proceedings against a single mother with no income for taking a liter of milk from the shelf to feed her baby (she too was a member of the civic solidarity movement), this time the judge ordered the municipality (who started the proceedings) to give the guy a job so that he could pay his debt instead of asking for him to be put in jail where he still wouldn't be able to pay but would cost everybody in terms of keeping him there. So, here's the judgment:

The local municipality is to employ the man from September 1st onwards. He will work unpaid for 380 hours, which will pay of his debt.
When the representative for the municipality complained that the 380 hours would not cover the debt because it was calculated on gross wage, she was told by the judge that that was their problem.
They want the guy to pay his taxes, this is how he will pay his taxes. If there are any taxes to be paid on the wages for those 380 hours, then the municipality will have to take care of that as the man will not have the means to pay it himself as he does in reality not have any money. The judge also pointed out that after his 380 hours of community service, the municipality better make sure social security had been paid because the man would be entitled to unemployment money. If there are any problems with that, Manis Hatzidakis has the judges permission to seek redress in his court. The municipality representative was rather gobsmacked by this. The members of the civic solidarity movement who were in court applauded the judge. The municipality has in reality been told to go after those who can afford it if they want to collect money. Some judges are not all that bad. Maybe a little fakelaki helps?

[Ephilant]

More reasons to rob Joe Soap even further.

The Troika does not believe the figures the Greek government puts forward on tax collection through reduction of evasion. (I wonder why?). this will result in the need for the Greek Government to find another 1.9 billion in revenue somewhere. Of course, this is being used as an excuse to introduce "the possibility" of further austerity in terms of horizontal cuts to wages and pensions.
No suggestions to tax the shipping industry have been tabled. A blanket 5% tax on shipping would wipe the need for the extra 11.5 billion now needed, and the 1.9 billion projceted by the Troika, immediately...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87010O20120801

[fluffybiscuits]

This could have as many reasons as there are stars in the sky. It can be as simple as not having paid fakelaki to the right person (fakelaki = little envelope) or looked crooked at some guys wife or sister, or anything. But the good news just in is that like the previous time, in the same town, the local judge isn't having any of it. Last time the manager of a foreign supermarket was told were to go when he brought proceedings against a single mother with no income for taking a liter of milk from the shelf to feed her baby (she too was a member of the civic solidarity movement), this time the judge ordered the municipality (who started the proceedings) to give the guy a job so that he could pay his debt instead of asking for him to be put in jail where he still wouldn't be able to pay but would cost everybody in terms of keeping him there. So, here's the judgment:

The local municipality is to employ the man from September 1st onwards. He will work unpaid for 380 hours, which will pay of his debt.
When the representative for the municipality complained that the 380 hours would not cover the debt because it was calculated on gross wage, she was told by the judge that that was their problem.
They want the guy to pay his taxes, this is how he will pay his taxes. If there are any taxes to be paid on the wages for those 380 hours, then the municipality will have to take care of that as the man will not have the means to pay it himself as he does in reality not have any money. The judge also pointed out that after his 380 hours of community service, the municipality better make sure social security had been paid because the man would be entitled to unemployment money. If there are any problems with that, Manis Hatzidakis has the judges permission to seek redress in his court. The municipality representative was rather gobsmacked by this. The members of the civic solidarity movement who were in court applauded the judge. The municipality has in reality been told to go after those who can afford it if they want to collect money. Some judges are not all that bad. Maybe a little fakelaki helps?

This just has to be one of the sickest episodes so far.
Proto Thema, the Greek language news portal carries the story of Minas Hatzidakis, and unemployed father of 7 from Iraklio, Crete.
in 2008 Minas closed his business because of the economic downturn, and became unemployed. 3 Months later his wife lost her job in Iraklio, and found she could not get unemployment money because of unpaid social contributions to Labour Authority (OAEE). With the help of friends and relations (some known to me), Minas and his family were kept alive, but not much more.

On Tuesday night Minas heard a knock on the door. When he opened up, he found himslef facing the sherriffs who demanded he either pay €5,000 in unpaid taxes, or go to jail. Which is where he is now.
In the time when tax evasion has become the national sport of the rich, when 2 of the 3 government parties turn 200 million € of party debt into a debt to be paid by the Greek people, this man gets put in jail because he can;'t pay his taxes. The employer who never paid the social security taxes for his wife , and who lives in the same town, still happily drives around in his flashy car, entertains friends and busines relations, and lives the good live. Minas is in jail, his wife and 7 children now being supported by family and the civic solidarity movement of which Minas was is an outspoken member.

Some semblance of common sense from the judge prevailed I can see but 380 hours a litre of milk? The judge should have tried to understand what drove a person to such an action, the lack of money in the system. At least they can now earn some social security to get social welfare of sorts. The other example that you posted just illustrates (and quite blatantly) how there is a huge divide still between us working class and the bourgoise in society.

[Ephilant]

Some semblance of common sense from the judge prevailed I can see but 380 hours a litre of milk? The judge should have tried to understand what drove a person to such an action, the lack of money in the system. At least they can now earn some social security to get social welfare of sorts. The other example that you posted just illustrates (and quite blatantly) how there is a huge divide still between us working class and the bourgoise in society.

You're mixing 2 things up here. Maybe a little more milk and a little less...?
It's the same judge who heard both cases, the unemployed, single mother with the milk and the unemployed father of 7 with 5000 arrears in taxes one. In both cases the judge came down in favour of the underdog and told the plaintiff where to go really.
But last night he actually ordered the municipality to give this guy a job, full stop. 380 hours unpaid work, but neverteless, he's on the payroll because they the have to show the payments in order to deduct the taxes.
It's causing the municipality a major headache, because under their own rules if you work 350 hours uninterrupted for them, you are considered a full time worker and they can't sack you. The 350 hours do not necessarily have to be paid work, just uninterrupted... And I can't help but think the judge knew exactly what he was doing. He won't be getting too many tax-arrear cases from the municipality any more...

[fluffybiscuits]

You're mixing 2 things up here. Maybe a little more milk and a little less...?
It's the same judge who heard both cases, the unemployed, single mother with the milk and the unemployed father of 7 with 5000 arrears in taxes one. In both cases the judge came down in favour of the underdog and told the plaintiff where to go really.
But last night he actually ordered the municipality to give this guy a job, full stop. 380 hours unpaid work, but neverteless, he's on the payroll because they the have to show the payments in order to deduct the taxes.
It's causing the municipality a major headache, because under their own rules if you work 350 hours uninterrupted for them, you are considered a full time worker and they can't sack you. The 350 hours do not necessarily have to be paid work, just uninterrupted... And I can't help but think the judge knew exactly what he was doing. He won't be getting too many tax-arrear cases from the municipality any more...

apologies that was my fault for getting mixed up

[Ephilant]

apologies that was my fault for getting mixed up

no worries, happens to the best of us, as you now found out

[Ephilant]

What happens when people care:

what happens when nobody cares:

Immigration detention centre in Greece

[Ephilant]

Various ministers have been talking to various "preferred channels" about the 11€ billion in extra cuts that have been agreed with the Troika...
Remember Patriarch Ieronymus talking about the "justifiable social revolution"?

September, and the S***T hits the fan, without a doubt. Why?

Well, as we now know what will not be done, we also have been told through the famous "anonymous source" what will happen:

First, what won't happen.

- No redundancies in the civil service
- No cuts in the "special wages", including the army. And they are going to need them, soon!
- As only 10 % of Greeks earn pensions over 2500€ a month (which is close to a YEAR's wages for a full time worker on the minimum wage!), it is not efficient to make cuts to those pensions


This, they say, will happen:

- Cuts of up to 10% to pensions up to 1400€ a month
- A second pension will be cut by 35%. (380,000 families where both husband and wife worked all their lives and each was forced to contribute to their own fund will be hit by this.)
- Further cuts of up to 10% in various social welfare and unemployment payments.

Meaning, the untouchables are indeed untouchable for Samaras, while Joe Soap gets hit for another 10-15% reduction in income. An OP will now have to try and survive on about 250€ a month.
This of course goes hand in hand with another increase in the price of electricity, a DOUBLING of the price of home heating fuel, and renaging on the reduction in VAT on food from 23% to 15%.

The reactions on the local blogs, forums, news forums etc. are ones of absolute shock and open rebellion. Of course, August being the hottest month of the year and therefore holiday month for most greeks, like it or not, the news will not sink in until September.

This time, Athens will burn, and blood will flow. the anger is tangeable and visible. And government spokes persons are nowhere to be seen...
There is not just trouble brewing, there is revolution brewing. And once the tinderbox ignites, nothing will stop it. I give it about 4 weeks...