The Poverty of the Greek people

[fluffybiscuits]

BBC has done a great piece on the suffering of the Greek people . I did'nt want to place this in the other Greek threads as its the human side of the economic collapse. Parents are giving their children either up for adoption, foster or are just abandoning them all together. These are the human face of the economic crisis that is crippling Greece at the moment. 27% of Greece is below the poverty line and this is going to continue to drop.

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/172170.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16472310

[TotalMayhem]

Off topic, but I came across this yesterday and before I forget about it, I might as well post here.

The Greater Minneapolis Council of Churches conducts an "interactive poverty simulation,"

[fluffybiscuits]

3000 dollars a month is not really a lot to live on , its 18000 dollar a year basic salary for one person! All people on that money would be doing is living pay day to pay day.

[Ephilant]

... its the human side of the economic collapse. Parents are giving their children either up for adoption, foster or are just abandoning them all together. These are the human face of the economic crisis that is crippling Greece at the moment..

That BBC report you mention was, and still is a very good and relevant piece. I live in rural Greece, and see what is happening here every day. Since the "new regime" was put in place as puppets of the EU mandarins, things have gotten far worse. Previously the hated policy of cutting people of from electricity because of their inability to pay the bill was prevented by the workers within the electricity companies. Today it emerged that 3 days ago in a small village in the NE of the country, the new regime managed to cut the supply to 12 houses out of 26 because of non-payment of the last bill. It was -13C (indeed, minus thirteen centigrade) when this happened. The outrage caused by this totally inhumane act was one of the factors that prompted Archbishop Ieronymos to lash out the way he did (see my post in "Default by Greece Inevitable")
But this is only one of the many horrendously inhumane situations that have been created by the combination of corrupt local puppet politicians and their European Master, who's ONLY goal is to safeguard their positions within the overall EU economy AT ANY COST. And it is obvious from what is happening here that they are quite willing to sacrifice an entire population of a fellow EU member to maintain their dominant position.
Today, one of my neighbours asked if I could possibly give her a lift to the ferry port and back, because she had something very important to take care of. I wouldn't dream of saying no to anybody in the town, and certainly not to an 82 year old lady (and that she is), if they ask for a helping hand, so of we went. When the ferry arrived, 2 small children, I estimate between 5 and 8 years old, were escorted of the ferry by one of the crew. They were 2 of her grandchildren, who had left Tessaloniki 8 days ago and somehow worked their way to Athens, were a local charity took them in and made contact with their grandmother.The children left their home because they had nothing left to eat...People are still trying to contact the parents, so far, without success. During their travels South, these kids endure temperatures as low as -21C. They also got assistance from total strangers they met en route, food, warm clothes, lifts etc. They are now here with their family. They are the lucky ones....
The only thing this completely inhumane and insane policy of austerity at any cost is accomplishing is what Archbishop Ieronymus referred to as a "justified social explosion". The anger in this generally very relaxed, fun loving, generous and totally peaceful people is growing rapidly and reaching levels that will not be controlled much longer.

[C. Flower]

That BBC report you mention was, and still is a very good and relevant piece. I live in rural Greece, and see what is happening here every day. Since the "new regime" was put in place as puppets of the EU mandarins, things have gotten far worse. Previously the hated policy of cutting people of from electricity because of their inability to pay the bill was prevented by the workers within the electricity companies. Today it emerged that 3 days ago in a small village in the NE of the country, the new regime managed to cut the supply to 12 houses out of 26 because of non-payment of the last bill. It was -13C (indeed, minus thirteen centigrade) when this happened. The outrage caused by this totally inhumane act was one of the factors that prompted Archbishop Ieronymos to lash out the way he did (see my post in "Default by Greece Inevitable")
But this is only one of the many horrendously inhumane situations that have been created by the combination of corrupt local puppet politicians and their European Master, who's ONLY goal is to safeguard their positions within the overall EU economy AT ANY COST. And it is obvious from what is happening here that they are quite willing to sacrifice an entire population of a fellow EU member to maintain their dominant position.
Today, one of my neighbours asked if I could possibly give her a lift to the ferry port and back, because she had something very important to take care of. I wouldn't dream of saying no to anybody in the town, and certainly not to an 82 year old lady (and that she is), if they ask for a helping hand, so of we went. When the ferry arrived, 2 small children, I estimate between 5 and 8 years old, were escorted of the ferry by one of the crew. They were 2 of her grandchildren, who had left Tessaloniki 8 days ago and somehow worked their way to Athens, were a local charity took them in and made contact with their grandmother.The children left their home because they had nothing left to eat...People are still trying to contact the parents, so far, without success. During their travels South, these kids endure temperatures as low as -21C. They also got assistance from total strangers they met en route, food, warm clothes, lifts etc. They are now here with their family. They are the lucky ones....
The only thing this completely inhumane and insane policy of austerity at any cost is accomplishing is what Archbishop Ieronymus referred to as a "justified social explosion". The anger in this generally very relaxed, fun loving, generous and totally peaceful people is growing rapidly and reaching levels that will not be controlled much longer.

What will you replace this government with ?

[Klaus Kastner]

What will you replace this government with ?

In the interest of balanced views, a report on the Poverty of the Greek People would have to be accompanied by a report on the Wealth of the Greek People (and I say this as a fan of Greece's; married to a Greek; spending half the year there).

The wealth of Greece's upper class (it is no longer just the few oligarch families; the Euro has expanded the economic upper class exponentially!) is unbelievable by Central European standards. I am not even referring to the 3-digit BN EUR figures in offshore bank accounts. Just the domestic real estate, the second and third homes, the luxury cars and yachts, all sorts of other luxuries, etc. etc.

Let me just give 2 examples: the island of Spetses (summer homes for Athinians) and Chalkidiki (summer homes for Thessalonikians). A good place to start would be to run a cross-check between the owners of those summer homes and their income tax returns.

If only the residents of these 2 places were asked to come up with money to provide shelter and food to all presently homeless Greeks, it wouldn't make much of a dent in their net worth statement. And if the entire economic upper class of Greece were asked to pay their fair share to society, there wouldn't be much of a budget deficit (note that the budget deficit of about 10% is almost exactly the difference between the tax revenue as percentage of GDP in Greece as compared with "normal" EU-countries).

The lack of solidarity between the Wealthy and the Poor; or rather: the lack of social responsibility to begin with is beyond description. Petros Markaris divided Greek society into 4 groups: the Profiteers, the Moloch's, the Righteous and the Hopeless. The surplus countries ought to give unlimited support to the Righteous and the Hopeless. And regarding the Profiteers and the Moloch's, the New Testament would “throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”.

The trouble is that the EU cannot differentiate its helpf for Greece. Only the national government could pass laws and police them so that solidarity is achieve. Fat chance that this will happen!

http://klauskastner.blogspot.com/201...-markaris.html

[C. Flower]

In the interest of balanced views, a report on the Poverty of the Greek People would have to be accompanied by a report on the Wealth of the Greek People (and I say this as a fan of Greece's; married to a Greek; spending half the year there).

The wealth of Greece's upper class (it is no longer just the few oligarch families; the Euro has expanded the economic upper class exponentially!) is unbelievable by Central European standards. I am not even referring to the 3-digit BN EUR figures in offshore bank accounts. Just the domestic real estate, the second and third homes, the luxury cars and yachts, all sorts of other luxuries, etc. etc.

Let me just give 2 examples: the island of Spetses (summer homes for Athinians) and Chalkidiki (summer homes for Thessalonikians). A good place to start would be to run a cross-check between the owners of those summer homes and their income tax returns.

If only the residents of these 2 places were asked to come up with money to provide shelter and food to all presently homeless Greeks, it wouldn't make much of a dent in their net worth statement. And if the entire economic upper class of Greece were asked to pay their fair share to society, there wouldn't be much of a budget deficit (note that the budget deficit of about 10% is almost exactly the difference between the tax revenue as percentage of GDP in Greece as compared with "normal" EU-countries).

The lack of solidarity between the Wealthy and the Poor; or rather: the lack of social responsibility to begin with is beyond description. Petros Markaris divided Greek society into 4 groups: the Profiteers, the Moloch's, the Righteous and the Hopeless. The surplus countries ought to give unlimited support to the Righteous and the Hopeless. And regarding the Profiteers and the Moloch's, the New Testament would “throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”.

The trouble is that the EU cannot differentiate its helpf for Greece. Only the national government could pass laws and police them so that solidarity is achieve. Fat chance that this will happen!

http://klauskastner.blogspot.com/201...-markaris.html

The EU has just imposed a Government on Greece that includes fascists. They are hardly going to tax the rich.

IMF/EU influence has been entirely in favour of a low tax, low public services regime.

There is plenty of money and plenty of resources in Ireland too, (and in Germany, of course). But distribution on its own, between the classes and across Europe, would not secure a sustainable and decent living for everyone - although it would bring us a lot closer to it. The financial system is still walking backwards over a cliff.

[Klaus Kastner]

The EU has just imposed a Government on Greece that includes fascists. They are hardly going to tax the rich.

IMF/EU influence has been entirely in favour of a low tax, low public services regime.

There is plenty of money and plenty of resources in Ireland too, (and in Germany, of course). But distribution on its own, between the classes and across Europe, would not secure a sustainable and decent living for everyone - although it would bring us a lot closer to it. The financial system is still walking backwards over a cliff.

Mind you, Greece's government expenditures are NOT out of whack in comparison: 56% of GDP in France; 53% in Austria; and... 50% in Greece (of a declining GDP!). To focus on cutting expenditures which are not out of whack, particularly during a recession, may soon qualify for a prize. The expenses just need to be dramatically realligned. The Greek budget problem is exclusively a revenue problem! (38% of GDP in Greece vs. 48% in Austria).

My point was only that solidarity begins at home. Some Greeks have really taken other Greeks to the cleaners in the last 10+ years and this goes on. To act as though the misery of many Greeks were owed to foreigners is simply a charade. Yes, EU-elites have messed up the debt issue in the last 2 years but one could forgive Greece all her sovereign debt and you would still have this extreme division between the Profiteers/Moloch's and the Righteous/Hopeless.

[Ephilant]

...The wealth of Greece's upper class (it is no longer just the few oligarch families; the Euro has expanded the economic upper class exponentially!) is unbelievable by Central European standards...
http://klauskastner.blogspot.com/201...-markaris.html

You are, to some extent, correct. As recently published, about 4000 in Greece owe nearly €15 billion in taxes between them. So far, 112 have been arrested, owing a joint bill of over 350 million. Indeed, go after them, by all means. AS they should in Ireland, Spain, France, Germany and everywhere else.
But be this as it may, how the existance of this elite somehow justifies the plunging the vast majority of the people into untold poverty and misery is something I fail to see. The main problem of course is that this inner circle of 4000 odd people hold the power, and pull the strings when it suits them. The breaking story on Markos Karaberis (and I stress it is a breaking story, nothing more as of yet) goes a long way in showing exactly who runs the country here. Lets hope the tape does indeed exist and is made public. It might just blow "parliament sky-high" as is alleged. (This is a reference to Markos Karaberis, businessman from Thessaloniki who allegedly is the leader of a gang involved in extortion, blackmail and other niceties on a very large scale, and allegedly has many parliamentarians in his back pocket...)
Reality remains, despite the villas and most probably non existing tax returns, the people are being made pay for this in a totally unacceptable, barbaric way.
As for the so called help from the EU, have a good look around next time, not on the posh islands, but in the back streets of Athens,Thessaloniki and other places. It's not too hard to distinguish between the two and realise where the help needs to go.
And if it needed any further proof, social responsibility does exist amongst the ordinary people. Only today did the food producers from around Thessaloniki go into the city and hand out their produce free of charge to those who need it. And they had absolutely no difficulty in differentiating between who needs it and who doesn't...

[C. Flower]

You are, to some extent, correct. As recently published, about 4000 in Greece owe nearly €15 billion in taxes between them. So far, 112 have been arrested, owing a joint bill of over 350 million. Indeed, go after them, by all means. AS they should in Ireland, Spain, France, Germany and everywhere else.
But be this as it may, how the existance of this elite somehow justifies the plunging the vast majority of the people into untold poverty and misery is something I fail to see. The main problem of course is that this inner circle of 4000 odd people hold the power, and pull the strings when it suits them. The breaking story on Markos Karaberis (and I stress it is a breaking story, nothing more as of yet) goes a long way in showing exactly who runs the country here. Lets hope the tape does indeed exist and is made public. It might just blow "parliament sky-high" as is alleged. (This is a reference to Markos Karaberis, businessman from Thessaloniki who allegedly is the leader of a gang involved in extortion, blackmail and other niceties on a very large scale, and allegedly has many parliamentarians in his back pocket...)
Reality remains, despite the villas and most probably non existing tax returns, the people are being made pay for this in a totally unacceptable, barbaric way.
As for the so called help from the EU, have a good look around next time, not on the posh islands, but in the back streets of Athens,Thessaloniki and other places. It's not too hard to distinguish between the two and realise where the help needs to go.
And if it needed any further proof, social responsibility does exist amongst the ordinary people. Only today did the food producers from around Thessaloniki go into the city and hand out their produce free of charge to those who need it. And they had absolutely no difficulty in differentiating between who needs it and who doesn't...

The Greek military somehow reminds me a little of the Egyptian situation, although not so "in your face." The size of the budget is astounding.
How does the military fit into the politics and economy of Greece?

[fluffybiscuits]

That BBC report you mention was, and still is a very good and relevant piece. I live in rural Greece, and see what is happening here every day. Since the "new regime" was put in place as puppets of the EU mandarins, things have gotten far worse. Previously the hated policy of cutting people of from electricity because of their inability to pay the bill was prevented by the workers within the electricity companies. Today it emerged that 3 days ago in a small village in the NE of the country, the new regime managed to cut the supply to 12 houses out of 26 because of non-payment of the last bill. It was -13C (indeed, minus thirteen centigrade) when this happened. The outrage caused by this totally inhumane act was one of the factors that prompted Archbishop Ieronymos to lash out the way he did (see my post in "Default by Greece Inevitable")
But this is only one of the many horrendously inhumane situations that have been created by the combination of corrupt local puppet politicians and their European Master, who's ONLY goal is to safeguard their positions within the overall EU economy AT ANY COST. And it is obvious from what is happening here that they are quite willing to sacrifice an entire population of a fellow EU member to maintain their dominant position.
Today, one of my neighbours asked if I could possibly give her a lift to the ferry port and back, because she had something very important to take care of. I wouldn't dream of saying no to anybody in the town, and certainly not to an 82 year old lady (and that she is), if they ask for a helping hand, so of we went. When the ferry arrived, 2 small children, I estimate between 5 and 8 years old, were escorted of the ferry by one of the crew. They were 2 of her grandchildren, who had left Tessaloniki 8 days ago and somehow worked their way to Athens, were a local charity took them in and made contact with their grandmother.The children left their home because they had nothing left to eat...People are still trying to contact the parents, so far, without success. During their travels South, these kids endure temperatures as low as -21C. They also got assistance from total strangers they met en route, food, warm clothes, lifts etc. They are now here with their family. They are the lucky ones....
The only thing this completely inhumane and insane policy of austerity at any cost is accomplishing is what Archbishop Ieronymus referred to as a "justified social explosion". The anger in this generally very relaxed, fun loving, generous and totally peaceful people is growing rapidly and reaching levels that will not be controlled much longer.

Well there is cracks appearing slowly and slowly now with the strikes and people getting pissed off. What will happen next do you think>?

[Ephilant]

First of all, I hope the people will find a way to translate this rediscovered social cohesion into a political force that will indeed do what it is supposed to do, "Act on behalf of the people and express the wishes of the people" as the hackers video replacing the opening page of the Greek Min of Justice website stated. I sincerely think they eventually will, because things are so desperate here. And they have the backing from the Church, which means a lot here. Archbishop Ieronymos lashed out at the government and the EU, and rightfully so. But, by doing that, he also put the support of the church firmly behind the people. I've never been a fan of any church, but hats of to these guys. And they walk the talk as well.
The question is not so much who would I replace the present puppet goverment with. Apart from it not being my decision, but that of the people, the answer is quite simple, "not more of the same". I think the real question is "will there be enough time for the people to actually become the political power they need to become?" They will eventually, that is as inevitable as the Greek default is, and the government and their masters know this. Which is why there are already mutterings of early elections, which would prevent this natural progression from reaching the point it needs to reach for people to take back what is rightfully theirs, their country, it's resources and their future. I would not be surprised that the present "talks" on the new "bail-out" will suddenly collapse, triggering that early election. The pawns are already being put in place, little things like a suddenly discovered extra €15 billion missing somewhere...
The flip side of all this is the suffering of a people not seen since world war 2 (dixit Archbishop Ieronymos). According to the charities operating in the cities, the most cited reason for people to seek assistance is "Hunger"! Meanwhile, "in keeping with their international commitments", the goverment prepares to spend their annual budget of €1.6 billion on purchasing weapons.... At the rate they are abusing their own people, they are going to need them sooner than they think. The "social explosion" as the Archbishop called it is indeed a very thinly veiled reference to a revolution. Hopefully it will be allowed to happen through the ballot box, but I have my doubts.

[Fraxinus]

That is truely horrendous. Notice how it is going virtually unreported by the Irish meedja. A social backlash is inevitable by the sounds of things. I hope it is successful.

[Ephilant]

Yes it is. And getting worse... Our friends in the Troika seem to believe that they can actually demand anything they like, and get it to. After the joint refusal by the Greek trade unions and employer federations to further cut wages, details on new demands to release the €89 billion in March are now beginning to emerge. They include the sacking of 150,000 (indeed one hundred and fifty thousand) people from their jobs by 2015, and an additional budgetary measure to be put to parliament AND PASSED (so what's the point of putting it before them in the first place?) of €4 billion worth of extra measures, not in the previous "plan". To put this in context of the poverty gripping the people of this country, those 150,000 people will possibly get about 6 months unemployment assistance each (at an average of €350 a month!), and after that they are on their own, no assistance of any kind from anybody, other than charities. Most of the people targeted with this cleansing operation would live in the cities, where the problems are already much worse than those willing to help can cope with. The extra €4 billion in "savings" is expected to come from slashing an already totally inadequate and indeed misappropriated health budget, including making people pay for prescription drugs themselves (sound familiar?), whether they can afford it or not. Greece has one of the highest consumption rates of prescription drugs in Europe, and so far, generic medicine is not allowed to be sold. It does of course beg the question why so many pills and potions are being prescribed to a people who are recognized as having "the healthiest diet in the world"? In simple terms, take their dignity and self respect away, give them highly addictive drugs to keep them quiet, and once they're hooked, make them pay through the nose for it. Wasn't there some drug lord who did something similar in Ballymun all those years ago? But then of course, what he did was terrible and illegal... Was it any different though?
A little more reality just hit home. My elderly neighbour just came in, very upset. His state pension is €350 a month, which is supposed to keep him and his wife alive. He received his "new" electricity bill yesterday, including the tax. To be paid immediately. The bill amounts to €380. He can't pay that much, because his pension doesn't cover it. But the pension hasn't arrived yet either, so he will be cut off. If he pays, he will then be reconnected, but charged a reconnection fee of €65.00. And then he does of course have to try and stay alive until the next bill comes (His words!). And to really sicken you, when his pension does arrive, it is put into his bank account, and he gets charged €3 tax for receiving money into his account. It is however the only way a pension is paid.... And then they wonder why people get angry?

[C. Flower]

Yes it is. And getting worse... Our friends in the Troika seem to believe that they can actually demand anything they like, and get it to. After the joint refusal by the Greek trade unions and employer federations to further cut wages, details on new demands to release the €89 billion in March are now beginning to emerge. They include the sacking of 150,000 (indeed one hundred and fifty thousand) people from their jobs by 2015, and an additional budgetary measure to be put to parliament AND PASSED (so what's the point of putting it before them in the first place?) of €4 billion worth of extra measures, not in the previous "plan". To put this in context of the poverty gripping the people of this country, those 150,000 people will possibly get about 6 months unemployment assistance each (at an average of €350 a month!), and after that they are on their own, no assistance of any kind from anybody, other than charities. Most of the people targeted with this cleansing operation would live in the cities, where the problems are already much worse than those willing to help can cope with. The extra €4 billion in "savings" is expected to come from slashing an already totally inadequate and indeed misappropriated health budget, including making people pay for prescription drugs themselves (sound familiar?), whether they can afford it or not. Greece has one of the highest consumption rates of prescription drugs in Europe, and so far, generic medicine is not allowed to be sold. It does of course beg the question why so many pills and potions are being prescribed to a people who are recognized as having "the healthiest diet in the world"? In simple terms, take their dignity and self respect away, give them highly addictive drugs to keep them quiet, and once they're hooked, make them pay through the nose for it. Wasn't there some drug lord who did something similar in Ballymun all those years ago? But then of course, what he did was terrible and illegal... Was it any different though?
A little more reality just hit home. My elderly neighbour just came in, very upset. His state pension is €350 a month, which is supposed to keep him and his wife alive. He received his "new" electricity bill yesterday, including the tax. To be paid immediately. The bill amounts to €380. He can't pay that much, because his pension doesn't cover it. But the pension hasn't arrived yet either, so he will be cut off. If he pays, he will then be reconnected, but charged a reconnection fee of €65.00. And then he does of course have to try and stay alive until the next bill comes (His words!). And to really sicken you, when his pension does arrive, it is put into his bank account, and he gets charged €3 tax for receiving money into his account. It is however the only way a pension is paid.... And then they wonder why people get angry?

You are painting a picture of what is arriving in Ireland too.

We also have a situation in Ireland where generic drugs are little used and price agreements made by Government that are absurdly beneficial to the drug companies. Some of these drugs are damaging, others are life saving.

Greece has one of Europe's highest arms budgets, and a good part of its debt was generated buying expensive arms from France and Germany.

Why not call an immediate halt to that ?