The Cavalry of the Household Charge

[20 yards of linen=1 coat]

There's no sign of the support such people would need either. I'm going to pay mine next week,

Apparently they didn't contact the campaign in any way looking for support. They are also landlords, or so it says in the press conference. I wouldn't take what happened there to be generalisable. Taking landlords to court first is most likely a deliberate attempt by the government to have that kind of effect on people, or to make the campaign look rediculous by defending people renting out 6 properties...

[No.11]

There's no sign of the support such people would need either. I'm going to pay mine next week,

The Campaign isn't and shouldn't be in the game of defending landlords. Ordinary householders will have complete support.

[bernadette]

The Campaign isn't and shouldn't be in the game of defending landlords. Ordinary householders will have complete support.

Really? I've had a final demand but no sign or contact from anyone telling me that if I get screwed by the council they will pay my bill. It may be that there are continued protests here and there but its real people facing the law and increased bills.

[Sam Lord]

CAHWT press conference on defending people taken to court - http://revolutionaryprogramme.wordpr...aken-to-court/

People can seize this opportunity to face this government down and effectively resist not only the household tax, but also the property tax and the onslaught of other austerity measures that will be contained in the budget.

My understanding was that the household charge was being opposed because it was regressive taxation. On what grounds is a property tax being opposed?

[Baron von Biffo]

The Campaign isn't and shouldn't be in the game of defending landlords. Ordinary householders will have complete support.

Is there a definition of 'ordinary' available from the anti-HC campaign or must people take pot luck and hope they're politically attractive enough to get the rent-a-mob to turn up for their case?

This shows the danger of placing ones trust in organisations that believe in making up the rules as they go along - If you don't meet whatever arbitrary standard is in effect on the day you're on your own. Tough.

It's also worth mentioning the dishonesty of the anti-HC outfits who claim that all the non payment is down to individual protesters which obviously isn't the case. Some proportion, perhaps a significant proportion, of the properties in respect of which a payment hasn't been received will be owned by landlords/investors with several other houses.

[Baron von Biffo]

My understanding was that the household charge was being opposed because it was regressive taxation. On what grounds is a property tax being opposed?

There's votes in it.

[Baron von Biffo]

Really? I've had a final demand but no sign or contact from anyone telling me that if I get screwed by the council they will pay my bill. It may be that there are continued protests here and there but its real people facing the law and increased bills.

If you can't afford the consequences yourself you'd be as well pay up now because if the Anti-HC lot don't like the look of you or they have some hang-up about your address or occupation or car or anything else they'll leave you swinging in the breeze.

[bernadette]

If you can't afford the consequences yourself you'd be as well pay up now because if the Anti-HC lot don't like the look of you or they have some hang-up about your address or occupation or car or anything else they'll leave you swinging in the breeze.

Eh the world is full of people who don't like the look of me! Its the lack of a real nationwide protest movement that is the problem. People in the west are going to be charges so are people in Clare, Limerick and Cork. If charges get as far as a court hearing there appears to be no back up organisation for people to turn to.

Its not just the money when people prefer to pay the charge rather than go to court. Many of us don't want and can't face whatever that involves and there might well be increased costs and some of those could be prohibitive to protesters.

[bolshevik]

The reason for opposing all these taxes is a sub-set of the general opposition to the attacks on working people occurring in the name of "austerity" as the capitalists attempt to fix the crisis caused by their insane system and to do so at the least cost to themselves no matter what this may mean for the lives of working people.

Bernadette - it is not really a question of what the campaign, as some external object, can do for you and other non-payers but whether you and other non-payers will collectively support each other.

That is really all that the campaign is - a framework for working people to come together to organise collectively against these attacks on our living standards.

Some people in this discussion appear happy to bear the burden of the capitalists attempts to make us pay for their crisis. Perhaps some of them are actually propagandists for the capitalists trying to cause disunity among those who want to fight back.

But those of us who do want to organise to fight need to realise that is the responsibility of is all. Our only real strength is in our numbers and ability to take collective action.

Votes in the limited form of democracy allowed under capitalism are very much a secondary or tertiary factor compared to that need for working people to organise together and start to feel our collective strength as a class.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Bolshevik is right there. Bernadette, have you considered putting an ad in the local parish magazine or some other way of contacting people locally and just having a meeting among those who have received a final demand for the household charge?

A committee or group can then approach counsellors or TD or the anti-Household Campaign national protestors on a much stronger basis.

The attempt to take people to court will be done on a piecemeal basis and Bolshevik is quite right to say that local opposition groups are in a much stronger position than single householders all being chased singly.

Is there a Citizens Advice centre near you?

[C. Flower]

If charges get as far as a court hearing there appears to be no back up organisation for people to turn to.

Best thing I can think of is that everyone who can afford to pays the amount of the charge and automatic fines into an interest bearing account and pays the fines and interest then into a central fund to pay peoples legal costs, fines etc. And that legal costs are reduced by enlisting qualified volunteers and also by training lay people up to represent people in Court effectively.

Is the campaign doing anything like that ?

Plus what the Captain says: start a local group, even if small, and look to link up with other groups.

[Baron von Biffo]

Best thing I can think of is that everyone who can afford to pays the amount of the charge and automatic fines into an interest bearing account and pays the fines and interest then into a central fund to pay peoples legal costs, fines etc. And that legal costs are reduced by enlisting qualified volunteers and also by training lay people up to represent people in Court effectively.

Is the campaign doing anything like that ?

Plus what the Captain says: start a local group, even if small, and look to link up with other groups.

And what of those who wouldn't get the approval of the shouting and roaring set? They would be left on their own like the recent Mayo cases.

Exposing oneself to potentially substantial costs and fines in the hope that politically motivated groups will come to the rescue is the height of folly.

[C. Flower]

And what of those who wouldn't get the approval of the shouting and roaring set? They would be left on their own like the recent Mayo cases.

Exposing oneself to potentially substantial costs and fines in the hope that politically motivated groups will come to the rescue is the height of folly.

This proposal would only be of interest to someone who was politically motivated themselves - with a small p at least.

[Baron von Biffo]

This proposal would only be of interest to someone who was politically motivated themselves - with a small p at least.

Even someone who could be sure of access to volunteer lawyers would still be facing fines and possibly state costs when they exhausted their legal options.

People should look at what happened with the Dublin bin charges campaign. The same cast made the same sort of case against the charges and in the end they lost. It helped a few political careers but did nothing for the people.

[20 yards of linen=1 coat]

Best thing I can think of is that everyone who can afford to pays the amount of the charge and automatic fines into an interest bearing account and pays the fines and interest then into a central fund to pay peoples legal costs, fines etc. And that legal costs are reduced by enlisting qualified volunteers and also by training lay people up to represent people in Court effectively.

Is the campaign doing anything like that ?.

Not doing the first as far as I know, though there is one central legal fund that money has been going into. Organising for the lay people getting trained up is definitely happening.