The Cavalry of the Household Charge

[Baron von Biffo]

I think they mentioned Phil Hogan not paying the management charges on his apartment too.

A private business matter.

And of course, in granting the planning permissions for over-building, and failing to ensure compliance with planning conditions, the local and national authorities were at least as responsible as the builder.

There is also a question coming up as why local authorities seem not to be pursuing and using bonds to finish estates. There are millions sitting in the banks unclaimed.

How does that justify tax dodging?

[goatstoe]

How does that justify tax dodging?

You keep bandying about this "tax dodger" jibe in a tabloidesque manner. You are cheapening the debate and distracting from having a reasonable discussion about the ongoing protest among householders about the HC with your pig headed Phil Hogan type language.

Why are people continuing to protest in this manner? It's not all about keeping 100 euros in their pockets.

What about the way the government have responded to the protest or "tax dodging" as you like to put it? Wouldn't you agree that the way they introduced the charge was hamfisted and the juvenile bullying attempts since then to try to make more people comply has compounded the issue and is proving largely fruitless.

Wouldn't they be better off putting the work in and concentrating on introducing a properly set up property charge? Other countries have property taxes, why is it proving so difficult to establish a database and implement a working property tax here?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Who gets to decide what laws can be broken and by whom?

Working class people.

In this country we have laws by the rich, for the rich and in the interests of the rich - as amply demonstrated by the fact that a mulit-millionaire property developer can dodge paying VAT he owes (having collected it from working class people) with absolutely no legal consequences (and he's not the only one).

[fluffybiscuits]

A private business matter.



How does that justify tax dodging?

If that is a private business matter does that mean its outside the law? All things being equal and all of that ...

[Baron von Biffo]

You keep bandying about this "tax dodger" jibe in a tabloidesque manner. You are cheapening the debate and distracting from having a reasonable discussion about the ongoing protest among householders about the HC with your pig headed Phil Hogan type language.

If you're refusing to pay your taxes your a tax dodger. And as for my pig headedness, we get that in the bog water down here.

Why are people continuing to protest in this manner? It's not all about keeping 100 euros in their pockets.

Why do people not tax their cars? Why do they buy smuggled fags? why do they use green diesel on the road? Why do they trouser their customer's VAT?

No one likes paying tax so if they think they can get away with it they won't pay.

What about the way the government have responded to the protest or "tax dodging" as you like to put it? Wouldn't you agree that the way they introduced the charge was hamfisted and the juvenile bullying attempts since then to try to make more people comply has compounded the issue and is proving largely fruitless.

Yes the implementation was ham-fisted but that doesn't mean we can decide not to pay.

Every law on the books has some coercive measure associated with non-compliance.

Wouldn't they be better off putting the work in and concentrating on introducing a properly set up property charge? Other countries have property taxes, why is it proving so difficult to establish a database and implement a working property tax here?

unscrupulous politicians are already pumping up the populism against the RPT.

[Baron von Biffo]

Working class people.

How are we to divine the wishes of working class people? Are those outside the working class untermensch without rights?

In this country we have laws by the rich, for the rich and in the interests of the rich - as amply demonstrated by the fact that a mulit-millionaire property developer can dodge paying VAT he owes (having collected it from working class people) with absolutely no legal consequences (and he's not the only one).

It's not strictly true to say there were no legal consequences in the Wallace case but there's no disputing that they were utterly inadequate.

My view, which I've set out here in the past, is that directors of businesses that make false declarations to the Revenue should forfeit the protections of limited liability. Whatever of their personal possessions as are necessary to satisfy the debt and any fines and interest a court imposes should be seized.

In the event that that wasn't enough I would limit any payment from the state to the level of JobSeekers Assistance with anything else they might qualify for to be set against their debt.

[Baron von Biffo]

If that is a private business matter does that mean its outside the law? All things being equal and all of that ...

Not at all. If the aggrieved party wishes, they can use the civil courts.

[MPB]

How can people pay taxes that they cannot afford?

Why should they?

Because the Govt says so?

A Govt can say, starve or we will starve you? Kill or we will kill you?

What type of Govt does that?

Only an idiot would say that a citizen should do, whatever a Govt says.

[goatstoe]

If you're refusing to pay your taxes your a tax dodger. And as for my pig headedness, we get that in the bog water down here.

Sorry man, this is a very lame response at this stage. Are you trying to make a virtue out of pig headedness or trying to make light of it? The HC and the bullying tactics aren't working, don't you think they'd be better using their heads and putting the work in to implement a property tax that will work? In any other country the Minister presiding over this failure would be sacked.

Why do people not tax their cars? Why do they buy smuggled fags? why do they use green diesel on the road? Why do they trouser their customer's VAT?

Again you are not engaging with the issue that around half of householders are either confused about or ideologically against the HC. Yes some are people who just want to keep the 100 euro, but for you to equate the mass resistance against the HC with people who buy smuggled fags and the like is disingenuous. Again you are distracting and lowering the tone of the discussion with this sort of prattle.

No one likes paying tax so if they think they can get away with it they won't pay.



Yes the implementation was ham-fisted but that doesn't mean we can decide not to pay.

Every law on the books has some coercive measure associated with non-compliance.



unscrupulous politicians are already pumping up the populism against the RPT.

It's well past the time that this government used a bit of creativity in finding new ways of doing things. With the HC, a lot of people are thinking; they just want us to give them more money for services that used to be provided by the pre-existing taxtake and they are offering us nothing extra in return for that extra money. There is no sign that they will implement changes in the way things are done, in maximising value for money in the public service.

This week they bottled it in relation to allowances etc. If the allowances are a necessary part of people's wages as they say, well why don't they incorporate that into the wages and abolish the allowances. Wouldn't that provide a saving in paperwork and streamlining wages distribution alone?

They are not even trying to bring about necessary changes, but they are continuing to waste their time and resources trying to bully those who have yet to comply with the HC instead of getting the finger out and introduce a properly set up property tax.


Your disingenuous commentary on this matter is remarkable in its consistency, I hope you are being paid to peddle this line.

[Baron von Biffo]

Sorry man, this is a very lame response at this stage. Are you trying to make a virtue out of pig headedness or trying to make light of it? The HC and the bullying tactics aren't working, don't you think they'd be better using their heads and putting the work in to implement a property tax that will work? In any other country the Minister presiding over this failure would be sacked.

Tax dodgers will always find ways to rationalise their sponging.

Again you are not engaging with the issue that around half of householders are either confused about or ideologically against the HC. Yes some are people who just want to keep the 100 euro, but for you to equate the mass resistance against the HC with people who buy smuggled fags and the like is disingenuous. Again you are distracting and lowering the tone of the discussion with this sort of prattle.

It's well past the time that this government used a bit of creativity in finding new ways of doing things. With the HC, a lot of people are thinking; they just want us to give them more money for services that used to be provided by the pre-existing taxtake and they are offering us nothing extra in return for that extra money. There is no sign that they will implement changes in the way things are done, in maximising value for money in the public service.

This week they bottled it in relation to allowances etc. If the allowances are a necessary part of people's wages as they say, well why don't they incorporate that into the wages and abolish the allowances. Wouldn't that provide a saving in paperwork and streamlining wages distribution alone?

They are not even trying to bring about necessary changes, but they are continuing to waste their time and resources trying to bully those who have yet to comply with the HC instead of getting the finger out and introduce a properly set up property tax.

Hmmm, when the government tries to enforce the law it's bullying but when it doesn't tear up contracts with staff it's 'bottling it'.

Your disingenuous commentary on this matter is remarkable in its consistency, I hope you are being paid to peddle this line.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showpo...2&postcount=56

[goatstoe]

Tax dodgers will always find ways to rationalise their sponging.

Deflection from the discussion won't hide failure to address the matter and the utter failure that is about 50% non-compliance of the HC measure. Like I said in any other country failure on that scale would mean Hogan's head would roll. Not with this government lead by a jobber who has got to where he is by gathering 3rd rate cronies around him, and who epitomises the inertia and resistance to change that continues in this country.

Hmmm, when the government tries to enforce the law it's bullying but when it doesn't tear up contracts with staff it's 'bottling it'.

Eh no, that's not what I said. If they are saying that the allowances are integral part of people's pay, why don't they integrate it properly and do away with the time consuming array of allowances? In other words why don't change the system and streamline it? Also why don't they use their heads and put their efforts in to bringing in a property tax that will work?

http://www.politicalworld.org/showpo...2&postcount=56

Jaysus you get nowt for it (shakes head).

[Baron von Biffo]

Deflection from the discussion won't hide failure to address the matter and the utter failure that is about 50% non-compliance of the HC measure.

Isn't it the case that there's been no registration in respect of about 40% of properties?

That's not the same as saying that 40% haven't paid because some people/businesses will own multiple properties and not everyone who hasn't registered would be liable for the tax.

Like I said in any other country failure on that scale would mean Hogan's head would roll. Not with this government lead by a jobber who has got to where he is by gathering 3rd rate cronies around him, and who epitomises the inertia and resistance to change that continues in this country.

That's what you get when people use their votes to punish people rather than select representatives for the future.

Eh no, that's not what I said. If they are saying that the allowances are integral part of people's pay, why don't they integrate it properly and do away with the time consuming array of allowances? In other words why don't change the system and streamline it?

There's some merit in that where the 'allowance' isn't an allowance at all but is rather a core pay element - the 'Principal Teacher's Allowance' for instance. It's not something that can be done across the board though because obviously many will depend on what the worker is doing in a particular period - Travel and subsistence allowances or acting up allowances for example, would only be paid for those times that staff meet the criteria.

Make no mistake though, the clamour over allowances has nothing to do with administrative efficiency. It's about grabbing another €75m from PS workers.

Also why don't they use their heads and put their efforts in to bringing in a property tax that will work?

Have you heard about the Residential Property Tax? That will work and if implemented in line with the various leaks to the media it's fair. Unsurprisingly the same crew is opposing that as oppose the HC.

Jaysus you get nowt for it (shakes head).

Champagne service for beer prices, that's me.

[MPB]

When you don,t pay your household tax because you can,t afford it, the same as you can,t afford to pay your mortgage or your credit union loan or your ESB bill, or heat your home, or pay for your childrens school books, or put petrol in your car etc.....the baron reckons you are a sponger and a tax dodger.

The reason of course, is because you have lost your job, or had your hours reduced, your overtime cut, your taxes increased, your fuel is more expensive, heating your home is more expensive and even feeding your family is more expensive because of the taxes the Govt put on fuel and energy.

The baron reckons that those that have suffered job losses and reductions in hours, should now suffer a reduction in the services they pay more for to be provided, before those that pretend to provide the services should suffer a reduction in pay.

He is not protecting all PS workers, just the elite.

[Baron von Biffo]

When you don,t pay your household tax because you can,t afford it, the same as you can,t afford to pay your mortgage or your credit union loan or your ESB bill, or heat your home, or pay for your childrens school books, or put petrol in your car etc.....the baron reckons you are a sponger and a tax dodger.

The reason of course, is because you have lost your job, or had your hours reduced, your overtime cut, your taxes increased, your fuel is more expensive, heating your home is more expensive and even feeding your family is more expensive because of the taxes the Govt put on fuel and energy.

The baron reckons that those that have suffered job losses and reductions in hours, should now suffer a reduction in the services they pay more for to be provided, before those that pretend to provide the services should suffer a reduction in pay.

He is not protecting all PS workers, just the elite.

Fantastic! Let's emote our way out of recession. Why didn't I think of that?

[MPB]

Fantastic! Let's emote our way out of recession. Why didn't I think of that?

Give us your solution.

Personally, I would love to hear it.