The Cavalry of the Household Charge

[Sam Lord]

Some people seem to have lost sight of the fact that the Household Charge is an utterly regressive imposition which completely ignores the ability to pay.
It's the nearest thing that Ireland has ever had to Thatcher's poll tax but for various reasons a lot of posters here seem more interested in criticising the people opposing it.

The whole entire system is regressive and unjust. The question is how does one fight it.

When it is all over and the dust has settled the trots will tell you that it was a great victory because they got a dozen recruits. And never mind the rest who are saying "What did I actually accomplish out of that?"

[goatstoe]

Some people seem to have lost sight of the fact that the Household Charge is an utterly regressive imposition which completely ignores the ability to pay.
It's the nearest thing that Ireland has ever had to Thatcher's poll tax but for various reasons a lot of posters here seem more interested in criticising the people opposing it.

I agree, a lot of pointless ad hominem comment about politicians they don't like for some reason or other. When what is needed is a debate about bringing in a properly costed property tax that includes a proviso that value for tax payers money is prioritised.

[PaddyJoe]

The whole entire system is regressive and unjust. The question is how does one fight it.

When it is all over and the dust has settled the trots will tell you that it was a great victory because they got a dozen recruits. And never mind the rest who are saying "What did I actually accomplish out of that?"

I don't disagree that the entire system is unjust. But the HC is a particularly glaring example of that injustice which a wide range of groups and individuals is prepared to oppose. I really don't care whether or not 'trots' or any other group gain recruits by opposing it.
It should be opposed, full stop.

[Sam Lord]

I agree, a lot of pointless ad hominem comment about politicians they don't like for some reason or other. When what is needed is a debate about bringing in a properly costed property tax that includes a proviso that value for tax payers money is prioritised.

Hmmmm ....

Not something the revolutionary left, as is generally understood, would be naturally interested in. But the ULA is deeply involved in matters of taxation so who knows where this could go.

[Sam Lord]

I don't disagree that the entire system is unjust. But the HC is a particularly glaring example of that injustice which a wide range of groups and individuals is prepared to oppose. I really don't care whether or not 'trots' or any other group gain recruits by opposing it.
It should be opposed, full stop.

I could be wrong about the campaign. It wouldn't be the first time.

We will see what unfolds.

[C. Flower]

Some people seem to have lost sight of the fact that the Household Charge is an utterly regressive imposition which completely ignores the ability to pay.
It's the nearest thing that Ireland has ever had to Thatcher's poll tax but for various reasons a lot of posters here seem more interested in criticising the people opposing it.

I support the campaign against the tax and am in favour of mass protests to support anyone penalised for not paying tax on their home. Also for people who can't pay their mortgage and who face eviction.

That might hurt, if it is Sean Quinn's mansion: politics can make for odd bedfellows. But as part of a progressive budget that protected people on low incomes I would not oppose Quinn's mansion being taxed.

I think that additional income tax should be levied, from those on higher levels of income (above average, with heavy taxes for those on large "unearned" income). The argument that tax on higher incomes is a "tax on work" is laughable. There are only so many hours in the day and higher taxes if anything encourage people to work more, to raise their earning. It is the only straightforward way of aiming taxes at those who can afford to pay. In present circumstances in Ireland, any other kind of tax will fail as a lot of people simply do not have the money to pay.

I also think there should be property/land taxes, with proper waiver system to protect people on low incomes /zero income.

I've criticised the Socialist Party on tactical grounds that the Party has reduced its own opposition activities outside the Dail (and those of the embryonic ULA) to opposing the Household Charge and to opposing future property tax. The campaign is important, but it is narrow, and leaves out very important groups who any radical left party should be focusing on - young people and people who live in social housing. I think that the Socialist Party could have called for and supported the boycott without turning all its forces into it and basing its main recruitment programme on it. Campaigns against youth unemployment and forced emigration, against cuts and against privatisation, are at least as important - along with developing and putting across a practicable socialist alternative to the Programme - perhaps the single most important thing for a small socialist party to do at the moment. But the ULA called off the summer school at which this could take place, presumably with the agreement of the SP.

There is an aspect of the campaign that focuses on the sanctity of the home and on the rights of property ownership that is anything but socially radicalising. But at the same time, the campaign is a chance for people to take part in one straightforward act of passive opposition to the whole Irish Government/Troika agenda, and on that basis I support it and take part in it.

In the UK, people had paid rates on their property and homes without complaint for over 100 years - the Poll Tax provoked outrage precisely because it was not tied to property ownership and was a deterrent to voting, and because it hit the young.

I pay attention to the SPs present course of action and comment on it as the SP as it puts itself up as the radical socialist alternative to the mainstream parties, is probably the most active, and best organised, and therefore in my view is a very important group. If they get it wrong, a lot of people could be disillusioned and turn away from the left as an option (Labour has already done enough damage) To some extent, that is already happening with the ULA, where they have sat on it and kept it undeveloped, at the cost of numbers of people who were enthusiastic beginning to drift away. I think a strong united front left organisation of some form is needed, and there needs to be clarity about whether the ULA is a future party or a united front organisation - it can't be both. Perhaps a crunch will come in the next conference and a decision made. There are not so many people active that we can afford for them to waste their time.

[culmore]

Tell me someone who cant pay, its not anyone on a pension, social welfare etc, if they reduced the fags,drink and drugs , cost they would have no problem

[goatstoe]

Tell me someone who cant pay, its not anyone on a pension, social welfare etc, if they reduced the fags,drink and drugs , cost they would have no problem

You mean if they reduced the cost of drink and fags etc.. Go away you clown.

It's not just about people who can't pay either. Some people, a lot of people I would say, are unhappy with the hamfisted, stupid way that this charge is being brought in lead by redneck thick gobshtes like Phil Hogan.

I have no problem with a property tax and no problem paying it, but I want it introduced properly and I want to see better value for the taxpayers money.

[C. Flower]

Tell me someone who cant pay, its not anyone on a pension, social welfare etc, if they reduced the fags,drink and drugs , cost they would have no problem

The only waivers are for people on mortgage interest relief - about 18,000 people.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/hou...e-details.html

People in housing association or social housing don't have to pay, and in theory, tenants don't have to pay (although of course landlords will put rents up to compensate, particularly if they have no other way of paying the tax).

A lot of people with mortgages are already on the bread line and / or are already unable to pay what they owe.

[Baron von Biffo]

Ye lads are all on message aren't ya. It's not all about landlords who don't want to pay taxes, or politicians trying to piggy back on disenchanted citizens for an odd vote you know.

There's nothing wrong with looking for solid data. Landlords with multiple properties must surely make up some part of the non payers.

[Baron von Biffo]

Some people seem to have lost sight of the fact that the Household Charge is an utterly regressive imposition which completely ignores the ability to pay.
It's the nearest thing that Ireland has ever had to Thatcher's poll tax but for various reasons a lot of posters here seem more interested in criticising the people opposing it.

Just because someone says what you want to hear doesn't mean their motives are honourable.

If the ULA and others opposing the HC were being honest they would acknowledge that their campaign has failed. Close to two thirds of property owners are now compliant. Allowing for normal tax dodgers and the complete hames Hogan made of the introduction of the tax that's not too bad from the government perspective.

The government isn't going to back down so changing it isn't going to happen in the current Dail. What the ULA et al should do now, if their opposition is genuine rather than opportunist, is say to the voters, 'Elect us to government and we'll repeal the HC and give you your money back'.

[C. Flower]

There's nothing wrong with looking for solid data. Landlords with multiple properties must surely make up some part of the non payers.

Landlords with multiple mortgages are I'm told the most "distressed" group and the least able to pay, unless they own property in very much sought after areas. Banks are trying to confiscate the rents (which may well be less than the payments due). The State could do the same I suppose. There is no reason for a landlord who has the money not to pay.
Over a period of time, the tax will go into rent in the private sector, where the properties are lettable.

It's owner occupiers who may choose not to pay. When the amount heads up to €1,000, many more won't be able to pay.

[CMK]

In a world going crazy it's good to see some things never change, and that on some issues the level of 'political' debate at Political World remains determinedly disconnected from political reality. No more so than when it comes to the household tax.

Firstly, the ULA or the SP are not the totality of the household tax campaign. Anyone with a nodding acquintance with the campaign would know that. It says much about the distance of majority of the posters here from the household tax campaign that they keep repeating the same old rubbish about the household tax campaign equalling 'The trots'. There are thousands involved in the campaign who are not members of these parties, who won't be joining and have no interest in socialism, anarchism or communism, but who are nonethless determined to fight this government and this tax. These people, however, are willing to follow the lead given by the ULA parties, and other organised Left groups, within the campaign. So, by disparaging 'The Trots' you're disparaging those hundreds of thousands who have decided to take a stand. And at this stage in the year, nearly nine months after the tax was introduced, non-payers are taking a conscious stand against it - all 700,000 of them.

Of course, for many keyboard warriors there is a deep, visceral, antipathy to any active campaign and that, I think, explains the perspective you see here of 'yes, we must protest, but not that protest', 'the time's not right', 'ah, not taking part in that 'The Trots' are running it', etc. etc. ad nauseaum.

No doubt, if the CAHWT falls on its ass under state repression/attacks there will be guffaws and backslapping and a deep sense of Schadenfreunde on PW. But, remember, if this campaign fails any other resistance to the state's austerity programme, which is only just beginning, will suffer a massive setback. The Troika will be strenghtened immeasurably if this campaign fails and all of the destruction to the economy and society currently being implemented will have fewer obstacles in its path.

But, no matter, the important thing is to get one in the eye of 'The Trots'. It's obvious to me that for many here it's supremely politically irrelevant that hundreds of thousands of people have, after being failed by the Labour party and the unions, rallied to an explicitly Left campaign initiated by socialist, left-republican and anarchist groups.

Come January we're right back where we started and many who coughed up the EUR 100 (just about) will be asked to cough up several multiples of that, which many will not have. The campaign has only begun and gleeful posts heralding its demise are premature.

[C. Flower]

In a world going crazy it's good to see some things never change, and that on some issues the level of 'political' debate at Political World remains determinedly disconnected from political reality. No more so than when it comes to the household tax.

Firstly, the ULA or the SP are not the totality of the household tax campaign. Anyone with a nodding acquintance with the campaign would know that. It says much about the distance of majority of the posters here from the household tax campaign that they keep repeating the same old rubbish about the household tax campaign equalling 'The trots'. There are thousands involved in the campaign who are not members of these parties, who won't be joining and have no interest in socialism, anarchism or communism, but who are nonethless determined to fight this government and this tax. These people, however, are willing to follow the lead given by the ULA parties, and other organised Left groups, within the campaign. So, by disparaging 'The Trots' you're disparaging those hundreds of thousands who have decided to take a stand. And at this stage in the year, nearly nine months after the tax was introduced, non-payers are taking a conscious stand against it - all 700,000 of them.

Of course, for many keyboard warriors there is a deep, visceral, antipathy to any active campaign and that, I think, explains the perspective you see here of 'yes, we must protest, but not that protest', 'the time's not right', 'ah, not taking part in that 'The Trots' are running it', etc. etc. ad nauseaum.

No doubt, if the CAHWT falls on its ass under state repression/attacks there will be guffaws and backslapping and a deep sense of Schadenfreunde on PW. But, remember, if this campaign fails any other resistance to the state's austerity programme, which is only just beginning, will suffer a massive setback. The Troika will be strenghtened immeasurably if this campaign fails and all of the destruction to the economy and society currently being implemented will have fewer obstacles in its path.

But, no matter, the important thing is to get one in the eye of 'The Trots'. It's obvious to me that for many here it's supremely politically irrelevant that hundreds of thousands of people have, after being failed by the Labour party and the unions, rallied to an explicitly Left campaign initiated by socialist, left-republican and anarchist groups.

Come January we're right back where we started and many who coughed up the EUR 100 (just about) will be asked to cough up several multiples of that, which many will not have. The campaign has only begun and gleeful posts heralding its demise are premature.

This is a general sideswipe that makes the funny assertion that there is a PW line. There are many people who post here who support the non-payment campaign unequivocally. Perhaps you would like to do the normal thing in a debate and make it clear to whom you are addressing your post?

Personally I have made it clear from the outset that I believe the people who have organised themselves to oppose the tax should be supported, on an individual level and by political parties.

I agree that it would be a set back for the campaign to be defeated.

But it is only one of very many fronts that are and should be being contested. I completely reject the notion put about by the SP that the campaign can be won in the same way as a similar campaign succeeded decades ago.

Conditions are very serious, as we are dealing with an overtly bankrupt system that is out to extract wealth from the mass of people by hook or by crook. Whether the campaign is won or is lost, the underlying issue will not be settled and that battle will get more intense.

The most important thing at this stage is to build strong organisations that are honest about this situation and that put forward serious economic and social programmes that go beyond rejection of one tax.

What outcome for the campaign would you consider to be a success?

[Sam Lord]

What outcome for the campaign would you consider to be a success?

Very good question.