The Cavalry of the Household Charge

[Baron von Biffo]

I think that can only be argued if we are fully confident in what the intent of the legislation was.

Yes, I imagine the HC would be unimpressed if he tried some petty semantic or pedantically legalistic squabble.

If TDs expenses were intended to fund nationwide campaigning then the banded system would be a nonsense and Dublin deputies would have a solid case for unfair discrimination.

[Jolly Red Giant]

So he wants to rely on some defect of draughtsmanship to get himself off the hook. What a fine and noble figure he is.

Nothing to do with getting off of any hook - it is directly related to the fact that the establishment want nice, quiet, compliant parish pump politicians who will apply for the odd medical card, write the odd reference and keep their mouths shut as the rich run the political system.

Elected Representatives are entitled to campaign on a nationwide basis in support of the policies they were elected on - the Dail expenses system is an absolute joke, designed to line the pockets of compliant TDs. The Socialist Party TDs and others used the expenses for legitimate campaigning purposes - all the expenses were receipted and where the money came from is actually irrelevent. The nonsense in the Indo was designed to undermine the CAHWT (just like the 'exposé' this weekend) - it hasn't worked, it isn't working and it won't work.

Establishment TDs are quaking in their boots, worried that they might actually be exposed for lining their pockets with these expenses and while their political paymasters might be willing to sacrifice this lucrative slushfund - the backbenchers are more than a little peeved about what the Indo has done.

[Baron von Biffo]

If it wasn't principled to begin with there is nothing to stop It becoming principled. It can develop into a campaign that seeks to extract definable demands in return for compliance. Also as far as I know nearly 50% of houseowners have not paid the charge, it's not over yet by a long shot.

This is a larger issue than ULA or Joe Higgins and the anti bin charge supporters. There is a large vein of protest there to tap into.

Many of these people voted YES in the recent Euro Fiscal Referendum. They want better value for money, they want the powers that be in this country to serve their needs better in return for more money being demanded of them from their pockets.

If they can stick together and issue a strong demand in return for compliance, this government will bend to their will.

Why would you think the government will bend to a small protest that encourages people to break the law? Any shortfall on the budgeted expectation from the HC will lead to cuts. That's just the simple real politics of the situation.

You have a pre-occupation with the ULA. The level of anger and disenchantment transcends current party political politics.

People who own houses used to be regarded as stakeholders in this society, they are ready to revolt. A bit of leadership is all they need.

The ULA is taking the lead on the HC so I comment on what they're doing. Elsewhere I've been critical of other parties and TDs. I'm not a member of any party so I don't have to turn myself inside out to defend or criticise something to toe a party line.

[Baron von Biffo]

Nothing to do with getting off of any hook - it is directly related to the fact that the establishment want nice, quiet, compliant parish pump politicians who will apply for the odd medical card, write the odd reference and keep their mouths shut as the rich run the political system.

Elected Representatives are entitled to campaign on a nationwide basis in support of the policies they were elected on - the Dail expenses system is an absolute joke, designed to line the pockets of compliant TDs. The Socialist Party TDs and others used the expenses for legitimate campaigning purposes - all the expenses were receipted and where the money came from is actually irrelevent. The nonsense in the Indo was designed to undermine the CAHWT (just like the 'exposé' this weekend) - it hasn't worked, it isn't working and it won't work.

The SP didn't think that where the money came form was irrelevant when they criticised John O'Donoghue's expenses.

The 900 quid Higgins is beneath trivial in the scale of things. I'd have no problem if we decided to give him, and the other 165 TDs, ten times that amount if it would help them do their jobs better. And I don't want TDs wasting their time keeping itemised accounts of every Rich Tea they buy at a meeting.

The issue here is that they make a huge public issue of their financial puritanism while at the same time pissing on the regulations on expenses. If they feel they should have money to run their national campaigns then let them argue the case in the Dail. Doing it the way they have done makes people see them as rank hypocrites.

Establishment TDs are quaking in their boots, worried that they might actually be exposed for lining their pockets with these expenses and while their political paymasters might be willing to sacrifice this lucrative slushfund - the backbenchers are more than a little peeved about what the Indo has done.

Jolly, I hate to be the one to break it to you but the ULA couldn't get a jelly on a trampoline to quake.

A handful of TDs who think that avoiding power is a point of principle wont scare The Establishment'.

[Baron von Biffo]

An FG councillor in Cork wants the county manager to tell people that local services will have to be cut if the HC isn't paid. Not much of a threat to people in rural areas who don't get services.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland...es-201714.html

[Sam Lord]

Elected Representatives are entitled to campaign on a nationwide basis in support of the policies they were elected on - the Dail expenses system is an absolute joke, designed to line the pockets of compliant TDs. The Socialist Party TDs and others used the expenses for legitimate campaigning purposes - all the expenses were receipted and where the money came from is actually irrelevent.

Why should a taxpayer who did not elect a particular TD and does not agree with his/her nationwide campaign be required to help fund (even if in miniscule amounts) it?

It is wrong in principle.

Should taxpayers be happy if some right wing politician was using Dail expenses to fund a national anti-immigrant campaign? Would the SP really think that that this was fine? Should taxpayers who are opposed to attacks on immigrants be required to contribute to this campaign in the opinion of the SP?

[C. Flower]

[quote]

Nothing to do with getting off of any hook - it is directly related to the fact that the establishment want nice, quiet, compliant parish pump politicians who will apply for the odd medical card, write the odd reference and keep their mouths shut as the rich run the political system.

Is the aim of the SP that the poor should run this system? TDs and expenses and the whole thing? Are they not to do with changing the system?

Elected Representatives are entitled to campaign on a nationwide basis in support of the policies they were elected on - the Dail expenses system is an absolute joke, designed to line the pockets of compliant TDs. The Socialist Party TDs and others used the expenses for legitimate campaigning purposes - all the expenses were receipted and where the money came from is actually irrelevent. The nonsense in the Indo was designed to undermine the CAHWT (just like the 'exposé' this weekend) - it hasn't worked, it isn't working and it won't work

.
Nobody disputes that the money was used for nation-wide campaigning. But is was clearly not within the allowed terms of use of the expenses claimed. What I don't understand is why, with an enthusiastic mass campaign, this was thought necessary. Just pass the hat around at meetings, and ask for support when needed - that is the way that workers organisations have always been funded.

Establishment TDs are quaking in their boots, worried that they might actually be exposed for lining their pockets with these expenses and while their political paymasters might be willing to sacrifice this lucrative slushfund

Establishment TDs have been pursued - in at least one case by the law - over expenses claimed in breach of regulations. They must be sighing with relief that SP TDs can now be laughed down if they raise any expenses issues in future.

- the backbenchers are more than a little peeved about what the Indo has done.

What has the Indo done ? A mild little piece in a weekend supplement? It was in general quite complementary of Daly and Higgins.

Is the SP lining up with "peeved backbenchers" ruffled about a stir up over misapplied expenses?

More serious certainly is the type of call that Averil Power made for disbarring of TDs who "don't pay their taxes" - presumably aimed at HC and WC non-payers. However, hell would freeze over before she got that past her colleagues.

But the SP should surely know that if the Press is given the material on a plate to attack the left, they will make hay with it? Where is the surprise there? The SP and the left generally should keep their house in order and not rely on parliamentary funding for its campaigns.

The resistance to paying - and inability to pay - the charges by half the households in Ireland is a serious blow to FG's line that Ireland's books can be balanced under the Programme, and the IMF has admitted it.

The question now is how long before there is a serious financial collapse within the Eurozone and internationally, and how can a new social and economic framework be put in place to keep people in employment, housed, fed, educated and provided with medical treatment in an equal and fair way.

Rather than organising public meetings to defend the indefensible, why did the SP not go ahead with the ULA Summer School, which could have been a forum for discussing the very rapidly moving situation and how to address it politically ?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Why should a taxpayer who did not elect a particular TD and does not agree with his/her nationwide campaign be required to help fund (even if in miniscule amounts) it?

It is wrong in principle.

Should taxpayers be happy if some right wing politician was using Dail expenses to fund a national anti-immigrant campaign? Would the SP really think that that this was fine? Should taxpayers who are opposed to attacks on immigrants be required to contribute to this campaign in the opinion of the SP?

Sam - there are times (actaully come to think of it - it is most of the time) when you cannot distinguish your elbow from your a*se - and this is one of them.

[goatstoe]

Why would you think the government will bend to a small protest that encourages people to break the law? Any shortfall on the budgeted expectation from the HC will lead to cuts. That's just the simple real politics of the situation.

Around half of those eligible for this charge are refusing to comply, that's not a small protest. In my view that's a significant number of people who can organise themselves and apply pressure on the government to implement reform in local and national government spending. The government should be cutting waste in public spending.

The ULA is taking the lead on the HC so I comment on what they're doing. Elsewhere I've been critical of other parties and TDs. I'm not a member of any party so I don't have to turn myself inside out to defend or criticise something to toe a party line.

Again it's a bigger issue than the party politics of the ULA. I would say most of those continuing to not comply with the household charge are not ULA voters, otherwise the ULA would be showing a significant rise in support.

This isn't about demonstrating in town squares and marching up and down streets. This protest is - or at least it can be - about witholding money until the government shows that they are making a real effort to eradicate waste of the public's money.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Is the aim of the SP that the poor should run this system? TDs and expenses and the whole thing? Are they not to do with changing the system?

The objective of the Socialist Party is the establishment of a socialist society based on workers democracy.
.

Nobody disputes that the money was used for nation-wide campaigning. But is was clearly not within the allowed terms of use of the expenses claimed.

Who says it is 'not within the allowed terms of use'? - the Oireachtas Commission? - do you even kow who they are?

The Commission is made up of Sean Barrett, Paddy Burke Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, the Clerk of the Dail, 5 TDs (3 FG, 1LP and 1FF) and 3 Senators (1FF, 1FG, 1LP). Would you really expect this bunch to issue any kind of a ruling favourable to the Socialist Party or the ULA. Furthermore this bunch would not meet with Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Joan Collins and would not provide the details of the legal advice they received. So - to put it bluntly - stuff 'em.

What I don't understand is why, with an enthusiastic mass campaign, this was thought necessary. Just pass the hat around at meetings, and ask for support when needed - that is the way that workers organisations have always been funded.

Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Joan Collins have all contributed more to the funding of the CAHWT than they claimed in expenses and will continue to do so. It requires vast sums of money to run the CAHWT and money is collected at every meeting which goes to funding the activities of the campaign. This rubbish about the 'travelling expenses' is nonsense and is having zero impact on the campaign - the only people who are crying about it are those who are far too enthralled about the influence of the media.

Establishment TDs have been pursued - in at least one case by the law - over expenses claimed in breach of regulations. They must be sighing with relief that SP TDs can now be laughed down if they raise any expenses issues in future.

Establishment TDs have used the expenses to line their own personal pockets - there is no comparison - and they don't need an excuse to try and heckle down Joe Higgins or anyone else.

What has the Indo done ? A mild little piece in a weekend supplement? It was in general quite complementary of Daly and Higgins.

The Indo have been engaged in a campaign of vilification against the left and the ULA - and the Socialist Party in particular - in an attempt to undermine the CAHWT. Their objective is to ensure the defeat of any movement opposing austerity. The strategy of the Indo has been to attempt to portray the left as being involved in the same 'snout in the trough' stuff as the establishment's representatives and in guilt by association with developers. It has failed. The rubbish last Saturday actually demonstrates two things - 1. they were unable to dig up dirt on the Socialist Party (and left-wing activists deserve credit for telling them to get stuffed) - and 2. The absolute incompetence of the Indos journalists that they were unable to come up with a better story. In fact the Indo thought that they had done a good hatchet job - exposing the fact that Joe Higgins spends his holidays in Dingle with his extended family and that Socialist Party representatives don't drink with right-wing backbenchers in the Dail bar.

Is the SP lining up with "peeved backbenchers" ruffled about a stir up over misapplied expenses?

Of course not - and this comment merits the response I gave SL above.

More serious certainly is the type of call that Averil Power made for disbarring of TDs who "don't pay their taxes" - presumably aimed at HC and WC non-payers. However, hell would freeze over before she got that past her colleagues.

You will find the occasional populist right-winger who will come out with this nonsense - and you do know who she is married to?

But the SP should surely know that if the Press is given the material on a plate to attack the left, they will make hay with it? Where is the surprise there? The SP and the left generally should keep their house in order and not rely on parliamentary funding for its campaigns.

The Socialist Party has given nothing to the 'Press' on a plate - the entire controversy has been manufactured - Since Joe Higgins was first elected in 1997 the Socialist Party has been absolutely meticulous in keeping accounts and in how it operates within the Dail. For a decade the establishment could afford to accomodate a radical leftie in the Dail - praising Joe Higgins for his Dail contributions and giving him front page headlines because he lived on a workers wage. It could do so because the economy was booming - that is no longer the case - circumstances have changed and the left are now a threat to the austerity programme of the establishment - that is why the attacks have started and they will continue.

The question now is how long before there is a serious financial collapse within the Eurozone and internationally, and how can a new social and economic framework be put in place to keep people in employment, housed, fed, educated and provided with medical treatment in an equal and fair way.

Capitalism has NEVER keep people in employment, housed, fed, educated and provided with medical treatment in an equal and fair way. Capitalism has provided crumbs from the table - unfortunately for working class people there are no crumbs left. The potential exists for the collapse of the Euro - it is not guaranteed - but it could happen. Either way the battle lines have been drawn and the reality is that the building of a mass left-wing alternative stands a better chance if there is not a complete economic collapse.

Rather than organising public meetings to defend the indefensible, why did the SP not go ahead with the ULA Summer School, which could have been a forum for discussing the very rapidly moving situation and how to address it politically ?

And here you are coming out with the tagline of the establishment - what was indefensible? Claiming legitimate expenses for doing their job? The issue of media attacks on the left is an absolutely crucial issue for socialists - it is absolutely necessary to be fully aware of the steps the establishment are willing to go to in order to protect their interests - I have no idea why the ULA event was postponed - I do know that locally the ULA is playing a very active role in building the CAHWT - going door-to-door to sign up people to the campaign.

CF - Repeatedly on this forum you criticise the ULA and the Socialist Party in particular for not doing what you think they should be doing - but who is to say that what you are suggesting is the correct strategy. The Socialist Party has almost 50 years of experience working inside and outside mass organisations - building support for working class causes - building and winning campaigns - and so far has been proved pretty much correct in relation to current developments. We will continue to work in the interests of working class people in the best way that we can and with the strategy we believe will be most effective - even if you feel it necessary to vent your spleen on the internet.

[C. Flower]

The objective of the Socialist Party is the establishment of a socialist society based on workers democracy.

.
So why the heavy reliance on Dail funding ?

Who says it is 'not within the allowed terms of use'? - the Oireachtas Commission? - do you even kow who they are?

The Commission is made up of Sean Barrett, Paddy Burke Cathaoirleach of the Seanad, the Clerk of the Dail, 5 TDs (3 FG, 1LP and 1FF) and 3 Senators (1FF, 1FG, 1LP). Would you really expect this bunch to issue any kind of a ruling favourable to the Socialist Party or the ULA. Furthermore this bunch would not meet with Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Joan Collins and would not provide the details of the legal advice they received. So - to put it bluntly - stuff 'em.

Obfuscation.

Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Joan Collins have all contributed more to the funding of the CAHWT than they claimed in expenses and will continue to do so. It requires vast sums of money to run the CAHWT and money is collected at every meeting which goes to funding the activities of the campaign. This rubbish about the 'travelling expenses' is nonsense and is having zero impact on the campaign - the only people who are crying about it are those who are far too enthralled about the influence of the media.

I'm sure they have - again relying on Oireachtas funding. The main people crying at this stage are the SP, who are putting their energies into a public meeting focused entirely on the influence of the media.

Establishment TDs have used the expenses to line their own personal pockets - there is no comparison - and they don't need an excuse to try and heckle down Joe Higgins or anyone else.

Which TDs do you have in mind? Who are the worst culprits?

The Indo have been engaged in a campaign of vilification against the left and the ULA - and the Socialist Party in particular - in an attempt to undermine the CAHWT. Their objective is to ensure the defeat of any movement opposing austerity. The strategy of the Indo has been to attempt to portray the left as being involved in the same 'snout in the trough' stuff as the establishment's representatives and in guilt by association with developers. It has failed.

The rubbish last Saturday actually demonstrates two things - 1. they were unable to dig up dirt on the Socialist Party (and left-wing activists deserve credit for telling them to get stuffed) - and 2. The absolute incompetence of the Indos journalists that they were unable to come up with a better story. In fact the Indo thought that they had done a good hatchet job - exposing the fact that Joe Higgins spends his holidays in Dingle with his extended family and that Socialist Party representatives don't drink with right-wing backbenchers in the Dail bar.

Are you suggesting that there was a "better story" that they might have come up with? I'm entirely happy to accept that apart from the well-intentioned, but foolish, use of Dail funds for the Household Charge campaign, the SP is pure as the driven snow. The Indo story was mild in the extreme, quite friendly to the SP, overall.

Of course not - and this comment merits the response I gave SL above.

Then why did you mention that backbenchers are unhappy with the Indo?

You will find the occasional populist right-winger who will come out with this nonsense - and you do know who she is married to?

My point is that use made of funds by the SP has opened the door to the potential of a more serious attack on political rights of representation. Not that the political establishment need much of an excuse.

The Socialist Party has given nothing to the 'Press' on a plate - the entire controversy has been manufactured - Since Joe Higgins was first elected in 1997 the Socialist Party has been absolutely meticulous in keeping accounts and in how it operates within the Dail. For a decade the establishment could afford to accomodate a radical leftie in the Dail - praising Joe Higgins for his Dail contributions and giving him front page headlines because he lived on a workers wage. It could do so because the economy was booming - that is no longer the case - circumstances have changed and the left are now a threat to the austerity programme of the establishment - that is why the attacks have started and they will continue.

There's no such thing as a friendly capitalist press, for the left. The media homed in on Joe Higgins one-liners and presented him as a mild mannered joker of the Dail.

Capitalism has NEVER keep people in employment, housed, fed, educated and provided with medical treatment in an equal and fair way. Capitalism has provided crumbs from the table - unfortunately for working class people there are no crumbs left. The potential exists for the collapse of the Euro - it is not guaranteed - but it could happen. Either way the battle lines have been drawn and the reality is that the building of a mass left-wing alternative stands a better chance if there is not a complete economic collapse.

Who said it had?

a mass left-wing alternative stands a better chance if there is not a complete economic collapse.

What are you suggesting? Trying to prop the system up? Do you really think that some kind of Dail-based measures and protests will stop or delay the eurozone from disintegrating ?

Half of the states in the eurozone are in a debt spiral. Liquidity in the banking system has ground to a halt and there is a de facto renationalisation of debt within sovereign boundaries going on. The implications of a eurozone and banking collapse include inability to pay public sector wages or to run hospitals.
Similar to the fall of the USSR. Whether this does or does not happen is not something that can be decided in the Dail.

And here you are coming out with the tagline of the establishment - what was indefensible? Claiming legitimate expenses for doing their job? The issue of media attacks on the left is an absolutely crucial issue for socialists - it is absolutely necessary to be fully aware of the steps the establishment are willing to go to in order to protect their interests -

The job of exposing the right wing agenda of the mainstream media goes on all the time, not just in relation to some left TDs expenses. Most people are well aware of where the Sindo is coming from and who owns it.

I have no idea why the ULA event was postponed - I do know that locally the ULA is playing a very active role in building the CAHWT - going door-to-door to sign up people to the campaign.

Have you enquired why it was called off? The reason given - lack of overseas speakers - lacked all credibility.

I've seen no evidence of that, although the CAHWT itself is a campaign with a good bit of internal vigour in some areas.

CF - Repeatedly on this forum you criticise the ULA and the Socialist Party in particular for not doing what you think they should be doing - but who is to say that what you are suggesting is the correct strategy.

Also, FF, FG, the CPs, anarchists...... I don't think there is a party around at the moment that is doing what imo is needed, although there are many very hard working people on the left, and many good interventions and campaigns. So, like many other people, I choose to discuss with all and sundry, and provide a forum for discussion, in the hopes that some light will be shed out of robust debate.

The Socialist Party has almost 50 years of experience working inside and outside mass organisations - building support for working class causes - building and winning campaigns - and so far has been proved pretty much correct in relation to current developments.

Correct in what way? The Party remains tiny and makes very little contribution to the debate on the future of the left. It's role in the ULA has been to confuse and demoralise people looking for a new organisation with conflicting calls for and against building a mass party.

We will continue to work in the interests of working class people in the best way that we can and with the strategy we believe will be most effective - even if you feel it necessary to vent your spleen on the internet.

On what analysis do you base your strategy ? What is your programme ?

At present, your organisation appears to have been reduced down to a single issue campaign on one particular tax.

[Sam Lord]

Sam - there are times (actaully come to think of it - it is most of the time) when you cannot distinguish your elbow from your a*se - and this is one of them.

I'm taking that to mean you are unable to address the points raised.

Why should any Irish taxpayer have to contribute to a political campaign they are not in favor of? If my taxes were going to fund an anti-immigrant campaign I would be rightly pissed ... but according to the SP this would be just fine and grand.

[Baron von Biffo]

Why should a taxpayer who did not elect a particular TD and does not agree with his/her nationwide campaign be required to help fund (even if in miniscule amounts) it?

It is wrong in principle.

Should taxpayers be happy if some right wing politician was using Dail expenses to fund a national anti-immigrant campaign? Would the SP really think that that this was fine? Should taxpayers who are opposed to attacks on immigrants be required to contribute to this campaign in the opinion of the SP?

There's nothing at all wrong in principle with public funding for TDs to campaign nationally on issues of concern to them but that's not the issue in the current case.

The ULA has been misusing constituency expenses to fund their national campaigns. It's the breach of the regulations, and their ongoing refusal to address it that's the problem.

[Baron von Biffo]

Around half of those eligible for this charge are refusing to comply, that's not a small protest. In my view that's a significant number of people who can organise themselves and apply pressure on the government to implement reform in local and national government spending. The government should be cutting waste in public spending.

It would be a mistake I think, to equate not paying the tax with participating in a protest against it. Crooked business people who trouser their customers VAT or staff PAYE/PRSI aren't protesting against those taxes, they're just on the take.

Again it's a bigger issue than the party politics of the ULA. I would say most of those continuing to not comply with the household charge are not ULA voters, otherwise the ULA would be showing a significant rise in support.

This isn't about demonstrating in town squares and marching up and down streets. This protest is - or at least it can be - about witholding money until the government shows that they are making a real effort to eradicate waste of the public's money.

Ah no it's not. It's about trying to hang onto a hundred quid.

[20 yards of linen=1 coat]

Ah no it's not. It's about trying to hang onto a hundred quid.

Registration means that you are going to get hit with the expanded property tax and the water charges as well. And very possibly more down the line. While it doesn't necessarily affect the arguments for paying or not paying, nobody should be buying the line that it's just 100 quid. They are using a staggered implementation of the full charges in order to lessen resistence to registration in the first place. Surely you'd agree that that's the case BvB?