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Thread: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Griska View Post
    I wonder if the literacy level in Ireland in this decade differs much from the literay level in the 1920s.


    An interesting question though, and maybe one that merits a thread of its own. Just in passing, I've seen letters recently from 2 different solicitors, one spoke of 'alot' of something and the other promised to 'persue' a matter. I don't know either individual but I'd stake a middling sum on both being under 30. It's hard to imagine a solicitor in 1920, or even 1980, letting errors like that out of his office.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    If they're allowed to. Religious fundamentalists, of any hue, are not renowned for their tolerance of opposition.
    Considering that the religious organisations in question were banned for decades, and their members illegally detained and tortured, by the secular authorities, I wouldn't be rushing to criticise them for intolerance, before they have started to govern.

    Fine Gael and Fianna Fail are Catholic parties. They certainly aren't secular and they oversee an educational system that gives twice the hours to religion as to science. But they have been our democractically elected governments and broadly reflected the wishes of the population.

    Enaddi who won the election in Tunisia is religious but egalitarian / soft leftish.

    The Muslim Brotherhood reminds me of FF- it's a party of the business class and is not in favour of Sharia law.

    The Salafis are head the ball Sharia Law Islamicists. They are about as appetising as the National Front.


    One size doesn't fit all.

    A view of the MB from a left wing Egyptian - sharia law is not their worry.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...?newsfeed=true
    Last edited by C. Flower; 22-01-2012 at 07:56 AM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Considering that the religious organisations in question were banned for decades, and their members illegally detained and tortured, by the secular authorities, I wouldn't be rushing to criticise them for intolerance, before they have started to govern.

    Fine Gael and Fianna Fail are Catholic parties. They certainly aren't secular and they oversee an educational system that gives twice the hours to religion as to science. But they have been our democractically elected governments and broadly reflected the wishes of the population.

    Enaddi who won the election in Tunisia is religious but egalitarian / soft leftish.

    The Muslim Brotherhood reminds me of FF- it's a party of the business class and is not in favour of Sharia law.

    The Salafis are head the ball Sharia Law Islamicists. They are about as appetising as the National Front.


    One size doesn't fit all.

    A view of the MB from a left wing Egyptian - sharia law is not their worry.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...?newsfeed=true
    FF and FG may reflect the Catholic majority but they couldn't by any stretch be described as religious fundamentalists.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    FF and FG may reflect the Catholic majority but they couldn't by any stretch be described as religious fundamentalists.
    Islam goes from "a la carte" to jihadi, with everything in between, just like Christianity.

    I'm comparing like with like.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Islam goes from "a la carte" to jihadi, with everything in between, just like Christianity.

    I'm comparing like with like.
    Wild stab in the dark here but I doubt if the Muslim Brotherhood will have a Jewish minister in their cabinet. Not a huge chance of them pushing a policy of gender quotas for the next election either.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Wild stab in the dark here but I doubt if the Muslim Brotherhood will have a Jewish minister in their cabinet. Not a huge chance of them pushing a policy of gender quotas for the next election either.
    Saudi students that stayed with us "explained" to me that they could stay in the house of a Christian or (and this surprised me) a Jew and could drink from cups which we had drunk from because we believed in "Holy Books" sent from God. Not so with Hindus or Sikhs or Buddhists or any other folk like that. Would have nothing to do with them. These were educated and pleasant young men (never had a Saudi woman stay with us, they cant leave the country without a mans permitting, cant drive full stop, justified by saying they are treated like queens and queens dont drive!). Educated and pleasant as they were they had a medieval outlook on life.
    I have had a lot of interaction with Muslim men and some with Muslim women over the years and I am convinced they see the world in a very different and un-understandable way to me. Now that I think of it there is one guy who I can relate to, but he drinks!! and his wife, a Christian pesters him to go to the Mosque. There's nowt so strange as folk.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by eamo View Post
    Saudi students that stayed with us "explained" to me that they could stay in the house of a Christian or (and this surprised me) a Jew and could drink from cups which we had drunk from because we believed in "Holy Books" sent from God. Not so with Hindus or Sikhs or Buddhists or any other folk like that. Would have nothing to do with them. These were educated and pleasant young men (never had a Saudi woman stay with us, they cant leave the country without a mans permitting, cant drive full stop, justified by saying they are treated like queens and queens dont drive!). Educated and pleasant as they were they had a medieval outlook on life.
    I have had a lot of interaction with Muslim men and some with Muslim women over the years and I am convinced they see the world in a very different and un-understandable way to me. Now that I think of it there is one guy who I can relate to, but he drinks!! and his wife, a Christian pesters him to go to the Mosque. There's nowt so strange as folk.
    Islam , Christianity and firstly Judaism are the religions of the book.
    In Islam, Jesus is a prophet, the last one before Mohamed, and many other prophets in Islam are Old Testament figures eg Abraham, Moses etc ......people should know this. Judaism , Christianity and Islam are religions from the same origin and outlook, the religions of the book. Mohamed being the last prophet after Jesus the one with the true and final message from God.

    For all three mentioned above Hinduism, Buddhism, animism etc are considered heathen or idolatry faiths and are forbidden.
    Last edited by People Korps; 23-01-2012 at 10:42 PM.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?


  9. #39
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by People Korps View Post
    Islam , Christianity and firstly Judaism are the religions of the book.
    In Islam, Jesus is a prophet, the last one before Mohamed, and many other prophets in Islam are Old Testament figures eg Abraham, Moses etc ......people should know this. Judaism , Christianity and Islam are religions from the same origin and outlook, the religions of the book. Mohamed being the last prophet after Jesus the one with the true and final message from God.

    For all three mentioned above Hinduism, Buddhism, animism etc are considered heathen or idolatry faiths and are forbidden.
    That's nice and clear, PK. All the same one god for Jews, Christians and Moslems (and that is the historical order in which the religions came about).
    The Bible is a holy book to moslems.

    Too many cultural differences are put down to religion, when there are local traditions and urban / rural differences - and generational differences, as younger people are part of a more globalised culture now - that can make people seem strange to us when we first meet men and women from somewhere else in the world. Then we get to know them and find they are not so different.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Interesting piece on the amazing Palestinian director Elia Suleiman and the psychic contours of the Arab Spring


    The Arab revolts are not following a linear course towards a total revolution. They are an example par excellence of nonlinear narrative paving the way towards an open-ended revolution - unfolding more like a Bakhtinian novel than a Homeric epic (I have developed this theme more extensively in my forthcoming book on the Arab Spring). But whichever way the events unfold - counter-revolutionaries plotting to steal it, neoliberal Islamists seeking to appropriate it, military juntas seeking to derail it, or US/Israeli plots to short-circuit it - the revolutionary uprising will continue to appropriate more and more of the public space, transform it into active formation of voluntary associations and fine-tune the machinery of societal transformation beyond anything we have seen before. The combined power of US counter-intelligence, Israeli expertise in creating distractions (such as the Iranian nuclear programme) and Saudi money comes nowhere near the revolutionary synergy of what is unfolding right in front of our eyes.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...301368419.html
    Last edited by Kev Bar; 18-04-2012 at 07:42 AM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by morticia View Post
    Personally, I think they should have the right to elect whoever they like, and if that means the Muslim Brotherhood, I'm afraid, vox populi, vox Dei, etc. America and the rest of us will have to live with the fact that not everyone wants our way of life (and frankly, looking at our banks and sovereigns, the Holy Prophet of Islam perhaps should have been listened to with respect to usury. Along with the medieval Christian church... when did that rule get quietly shelved?).

    The great thing about democracy is that then, they'll have only themselves to blame if the Islamists don't manage to create heaven on earth for them all. No need to blame the West at all.
    Sure. Just like they said in the 30s with Hitler. It's ok in theory until fascists invade other countries. Otherwise I'd agree. But look at Le Pen in France..the amount of hatred against the arabs here is frightening. Glad I'm off to Germany in 2 weeks. Sick of their election campaign and everyone's obsession of 'la forte France'. The French are the most racist people I've met. Not all of them, but enough of them to make life uncomfortable if you aren't a white northern european. Try having Libyan and Algerian friends in such a 'great democracy'.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?


  13. #43
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    Looks like the spring has sprung - Morsi has effectively made himself Dictator of Egypt.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking10.html

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron von Biffo View Post
    Looks like the spring has sprung - Morsi has effectively made himself Dictator of Egypt.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...reaking10.html
    Much discussion of this of course on the Egyptian street, which has a mind of its own.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Has the Arab Spring Failed?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Much discussion of this of course on the Egyptian street, which has a mind of its own.
    The street was out on the street today, Alexandria, Cairo and right across the country, and very angry with Morsi.
    “ We cannot withdraw our cards from the game. Were we as silent and mute as stones, our very passivity would be an act. ”
    — Jean-Paul Sartre

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