Public sector pay and the Croke Park Agreement

[goatstoe]

They are going to take an axe to public services over the next few years, because they are continuing to hand over billions to bondholders.

I reckon the first thing they should take an axe to - if that is what they will do - is to axe a load of non-frontline jobs and get people to double job etc. Obviously I wouldn't like to see this happen to people and putting them on the dole wont help, but what choices are there?

Would you agree that in the worst case scenario, non frontline jobs should be cut instead of cutting hospital and education services and frontline staff?

They are going to cut, where would you cut, straight question.

[Baron von Biffo]

They are going to take an axe to public services over the next few years, because they are continuing to hand over billions to bondholders.

What the government needs to do is to understand that Gump getting a tickle from the French PM is less important than achieving a separation of the banking and sovereign debt.

We've been the teacher's pet since Lenny the Liar signed us up to his wretched deal and it's got us nowhere. The approach should move to something like Thatcher used years ago when she wanted a rebate on UK payments to the EEC. What I mean by that is we should bugger up everything else until we get a better deal.

It's time that Gump and the gang realised that nations don't have friends, they have interests and our interests aren't being served by being nice.

I reckon the first thing they should take an axe to - if that is what they will do - is to axe a load of non-frontline jobs and get people to double job etc. Obviously I wouldn't like to see this happen to people and putting them on the dole wont help, but what choices are there?

Would you agree that in the worst case scenario, non frontline jobs should be cut instead of cutting hospital and education services and frontline staff?

They are going to cut, where would you cut, straight question.

I don't agree with two of your premises:-

Cuts to non front-line staff won't protect services and swapping PS workers from the payroll to the dole won't necessarily result in exchequer savings.

[goatstoe]

What the government needs to do is to understand that Gump getting a tickle from the French PM is less important than achieving a separation of the banking and sovereign debt.

We've been the teacher's pet since Lenny the Liar signed us up to his wretched deal and it's got us nowhere. The approach should move to something like Thatcher used years ago when she wanted a rebate on UK payments to the EEC. What I mean by that is we should bugger up everything else until we get a better deal.

It's time that Gump and the gang realised that nations don't have friends, they have interests and our interests aren't being served by being nice.

Yeah, but Gunp is a jobber, going around waving his hands and turning up at social events like he's the President or something. Gump is not going to do jack sht about anything. They're handing over the Billion today, so now they'll cut public services.

I don't agree with two of your premises:-

Cuts to non front-line staff won't protect services and swapping PS workers from the payroll to the dole won't necessarily result in exchequer savings.

They are going to axe public services, where and what should they axe first is the question. Services will be affected if a load of non-frontline staff are made redundant, but obviously not as severely if frontline staff are made redundant. Are you saying that you will argue to protect all staff including all non-frontline staff at the expense of the people's health and education? Will you demonstrate on their behalf?

They are going to apply the axe, that much is certain. CPA is up for renegotiation shortly, or a clause can be used to invoke renegotiation.

[Baron von Biffo]

Yeah, but Gunp is a jobber, going around waving his hands and turning up at social events like he's the President or something. Gump is not going to do jack sht about anything. They're handing over the Billion today, so now they'll cut public services.





They are going to axe public services, where and what should they axe first is the question. Services will be affected if a load of non-frontline staff are made redundant, but obviously not as severely if frontline staff are made redundant. Are you saying that you will argue to protect all staff including all non-frontline staff at the expense of the people's health and education? Will you demonstrate on their behalf?

They are going to apply the axe, that much is certain. CPA is up for renegotiation shortly, or a clause can be used to invoke renegotiation.

What do you think would happen to hospitals if the non-frontline staff who order supplies were laid off?

[goatstoe]

What do you think would happen to hospitals if the non-frontline staff who order supplies were laid off?

The service will deteriorate and they'll make the remaining non-frontline staff work harder.

You're not answering my question. In a worst case scenario where they are going to apply the axe to public services pay or jobs, where should the axe be applied first, frontline staff or non-frontline staff? Or is it the case that you would advocate that all jobs and pay - including non frontline staff - should be protected at the expense of the public's health and education?

[Baron von Biffo]

The service will deteriorate and they'll make the remaining non-frontline staff work harder.

You're not answering my question. In a worst case scenario where they are going to apply the axe to public services pay or jobs, where should the axe be applied first, frontline staff or non-frontline staff? Or is it the case that you would advocate that all jobs and pay - including non frontline staff - should be protected at the expense of the public's health and education?

I'm trying very hard to answer your question but you don't seem to understand the way things work.

You're fully bought into the simplistic IBEC/ISME/Indo notion that the health service can be broken down into front line staff and parasites.

Medical people can't do medical things if they're running around trying to order paper for patient toilets and hire mortuary cleaners.

[goatstoe]

I'm trying very hard to answer your question but you don't seem to understand the way things work.

You're fully bought into the simplistic IBEC/ISME/Indo notion that the health service can be broken down into front line staff and parasites.

Medical people can't do medical things if they're running around trying to order paper for patient toilets and hire mortuary cleaners.

It's not just about the health system, the argument I'm making that non frontline staff should be hit first applies to the education system as well. Ideally people in their jobs should not be under threat, but with the government handing over 1 Billion today, they will apply the axe to PS wages or services. You still haven't answered the question I put to you, which is where should the axe fall first?

[Baron von Biffo]

It's not just about the health system, the argument I'm making that non frontline staff should be hit first applies to the education system as well. Ideally people in their jobs should not be under threat, but with the government handing over 1 Billion today, they will apply the axe to PS wages or services. You still haven't answered the question I put to you, which is where should the axe fall first?

I'm answering but you don't seem to like what I'm saying. There isn't this nice simple distinction, whether in health or education or anywhere else, between front line staff who are essential and provide the service and back room staff who are irrelevant to the operation of the organisation.

Cut the school secretary and you cut teaching hours because a teacher will have to take over the job. Cut the payroll technicians and you close down hospitals because staff won't work if they're not paid.

[goatstoe]

I'm answering but you don't seem to like what I'm saying. There isn't this nice simple distinction, whether in health or education or anywhere else, between front line staff who are essential and provide the service and back room staff who are irrelevant to the operation of the organisation.

Cut the school secretary and you cut teaching hours because a teacher will have to take over the job. Cut the payroll technicians and you close down hospitals because staff won't work if they're not paid.

So your answer is that all staff frontline and non-frontline should have a blanket of protection thrown over them en masse and that cuts should go across the board or directly to the point of service of health and education to the public.

This has always been the trick wih the PS. Frontline staff, Doctors nurses, teachers, lecturers are lumped in with admin, porters, technicians and maintenance etc.. The distinction is conveniently blurred. Of course some non-frontline staff are needed, but you'd imagine that that's where the cuts will apply first.

I'm not in favour of people losing their jobs or having their wages cut but with the government giving loads of money to bondholders, they will make cuts in the PS.

[Baron von Biffo]

So your answer is that all staff frontline and non-frontline should have a blanket of protection thrown over them en masse and that cuts should go across the board or directly to the point of service of health and education to the public.

You must have a very rich fantasy life.

This has always been the trick wih the PS. Frontline staff, Doctors nurses, teachers, lecturers are lumped in with admin, porters, technicians and maintenance etc.. The distinction is conveniently blurred. Of course some non-frontline staff are needed, but you'd imagine that that's where the cuts will apply first.

I'm not in favour of people losing their jobs or having their wages cut but with the government giving loads of money to bondholders, they will make cuts in the PS.

So you're in favour of closing hospitals and schools and sacking all the staff.

[goatstoe]

You must have a very rich fantasy life.

Yeah, but that is your position isn't it.

So you're in favour of closing hospitals and schools and sacking all the staff.

WTF are ya talking about, I said no such thing.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Biffo refusing to believe that the civil service and public service have any fat on them- called 'administrators'.

They are either doctors, nurses or Gardai or otherwise vital support staff to enable the former to do their job. That is total bullshyte in a country where one in five are paid a public salary.

Here's a question for anyone wondering whether the civil and public services are overstaffed or not in Ireland- over the past twenty to thirty years much of the public and civil service in Ireland have moved to computerised systems. Now- how many people have the Irish civil service and public service laid off due to efficiencies achieved in moving from paper based systems to computerised systems?

Can anyone recall hearing of any layoffs due to computerisation at all? I can't recall hearing of any.

And that makes me wonder.

It is standard civil servant bullshyte in Ireland to pretend that the civil service is made up of frontline staff and vital support staff. They won't answer questions on how many 'administrators' there are, they won't answer questions on how many 'summer temporary' jobs appear for relatives of civil servants around the country and turn into longer term ongoing contracts and they will never answer how many administration teams are attached to the many, many quangos we have in Ireland that all depend on Oireachtas grants or swing out of the Dept of Health and Dept of Education budget.

Irish teachers' representatives organisations (and I'm not talking about unions here ) have a secretariat and administration team paid out of departmental payrolls. They need to be got rid of.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

quangos have people charging fees and mileage attached to the board positions. Many quangos have civil/public servants attached to them.

There are two level of charge on the public tit here- not one.

[Baron von Biffo]

Yeah, but that is your position isn't it.

No.

WTF are ya talking about, I said no such thing.

See what it's like when someone pulls some stupid idea out of his arse and claims you said it?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Got any answer to the overhead savings the Irish taxpayer received from computerisation of records in the Irish civil and public service over the years, Biffo?

Because if Ireland managed to computerise its public and civil records system and at the same time managed not to make any positions in the old paper based system of administration redundant it once again becomes eligible for a 'Globally Unique' award.