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Thread: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Rich to send foreign democracies like GB and the USA to put manners on any regime.
    Well the "west" was intervening there in any case. Prior to the popular uprising they sold him weapons for his army, they provided training for it, their intelligence services worked hand in glove with his intelligence service, etc. etc.

    Better that the intervention be in favour of what the Libyan people wanted than in favour of a tinpot dictator who ground the people underfoot.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    In what way a double game ?

    A straight-forward US proxy, surely.
    That does not appear to be the case at all. The ruling people there are interested in staying in power and keeping the oil wealth flowing. That is their main preoccupation. In a region in turmoil and which things are in motion they would not see their interests best served by being merely a US Vassal. They keep their bets hedged as best they can. Al Jazeera represents their outlook to my knowledge - and that is not just a straightforward pro "west" position.

    Not everything in the world is black and white.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Rich to send foreign democracies like GB and the USA to put manners on any regime. .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Well the "west" was intervening there in any case. Prior to the popular uprising they sold him weapons for his army, they provided training for it, their intelligence services worked hand in glove with his intelligence service, etc. etc.

    Better that the intervention be in favour of what the Libyan people wanted than in favour of a tinpot dictator who ground the people underfoot.
    What the Libyan people wanted? US/GB Propaganda!
    Happiness is an inside job.

  4. #34
    People Korps Guest

    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    When and where did Gaddafi bomb a city ?
    Misrata ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102328

    Though the dope smoking demeanor of the MG was amusing when confronting Reagan and beyond

    his regime was not, he f@@ked up big time in his reactions to decent and that was foolhardy

    and to deny that is folly.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    What the Libyan people wanted? US/GB Propaganda!
    You can only say that because there was no election of any sort in 40 years to prove you wrong.

    But it is clear that no one fought for Gaddafi apart from a significant part of a well armed professional army that was significantly bolstered with foreign mercenaries. The people rose up arms in hand. The dictator fell. It's all good.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Before we begin to assassinate individual characters surrounding the conflict in Libya and while asking were Libya is going, lets look at ''what was'' during the Gaddafi regime.

    1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

    2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

    3.A home is considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent.

    4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

    5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83%.

    6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms – all for free.

    7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

    8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.

    9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.

    10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally.

    11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.

    12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

    13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000

    14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

    15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

    16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

    What improvements will Western intervention bring?
    Happiness is an inside job.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Before we begin to assassinate individual characters surrounding the conflict in Libya and while asking were Libya is going, lets look at ''what was'' during the Gaddafi regime.

    1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

    2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

    3.A home is considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent.

    4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

    5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83%.

    6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms – all for free.

    7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

    8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.

    9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.

    10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally.

    11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.

    12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

    13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000

    14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

    15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

    16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

    What improvements will Western intervention bring?
    Any chance of a source?
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    You can only say that because there was no election of any sort in 40 years to prove you wrong.
    Wildly inaccurate.

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&...luz5FZAjMHzYGQ

    But it is clear that no one fought for Gaddafi apart from a significant part of a well armed professional army that was significantly bolstered with foreign mercenaries. The people rose up arms in hand. The dictator fell. It's all good.
    Gaddafi was a tin-pot dictator and all the people of Libya wanted a revolution against him; the Libyan army is quite small and there were defections.

    Under those circumstances, do you think the Libyan people were not capable of getting a change of regime ?

    As a result of NATO involvement, 40,000 odd people were killed, Libya is deeply divided, its infrastructure shot to pieces and a NATO installed technical government similar to the one in Italy has been installed.

    All good ?

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    Before we begin to assassinate individual characters surrounding the conflict in Libya and while asking were Libya is going, lets look at ''what was'' during the Gaddafi regime.

    1. There is no electricity bill in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

    2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

    3.A home is considered a human right in Libya – Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi’s father has died while him, his wife and his mother were still living in a tent.

    4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$50,000) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

    5. Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 83%.

    6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and livestock to kick-start their farms – all for free.

    7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US$2,300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

    8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government subsidized 50% of the price.

    9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.

    10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – now frozen globally.

    11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.

    12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

    13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US$5,000

    14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

    15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

    16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.

    What improvements will Western intervention bring?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Any chance of a source?
    You might want to keep this link.http://domza.blogspot.com/
    Happiness is an inside job.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.


    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    Gaddafi was a tin-pot dictator and all the people of Libya wanted a revolution against him; the Libyan army is quite small and there were defections.

    Under those circumstances, do you think the Libyan people were not capable of getting a change of regime ?

    They couldn't fight air power, tanks, artillery, rocket launchers etc. with some looted AK 47s and anti-aircraft guns bolted to the back of pickups. They tried and it was not working well. They were not soldiers - they were doctors, engineers, plumbers, etc. They may have won eventually, I don't know, but there is no reason to believe the death toll would have been any less. I didn't ask the West to intervene - the Libyan people did. That was their call.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Flower View Post
    As a result of NATO involvement, 40,000 odd people were killed, Libya is deeply divided, its infrastructure shot to pieces and a NATO installed technical government similar to the one in Italy has been installed.

    All good ?
    That is all a result of a dictator prefering to see his country destroyed rather than abandon power. If he had gone when the people rose up there would have been no war, no NATO involvement, etc. All down to him at the end of the day.
    Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the (female dog) that bore him is in heat again. Bertolt Brecht

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by people korps View Post
    misrata ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102328

    though the dope smoking demeanor of the mg was amusing when confronting reagan and beyond

    his regime was not, he f@@ked up big time in his reactions to decent and that was foolhardy

    and to deny that is folly.
    bump

    The civil war will follow

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trow View Post
    You might want to keep this link.http://domza.blogspot.com/
    Nice site.

    CLR James on Hegel

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.


    They couldn't fight air power, tanks, artillery, rocket launchers etc. with some looted AK 47s and anti-aircraft guns bolted to the back of pickups. They tried and it was not working well. They were not soldiers - they were doctors, engineers, plumbers, etc. They may have won eventually, I don't know, but there is no reason to believe the death toll would have been any less. I didn't ask the West to intervene - the Libyan people did. That was their call.


    That is all a result of a dictator prefering to see his country destroyed rather than abandon power. If he had gone when the people rose up there would have been no war, no NATO involvement, etc. All down to him at the end of the day.
    "Air power" ? Where ?

    They fought the Libyan army to a standstill at Misrata, did they not?

    The support was clearly not anything like as universal as you suggest or else they were the most impatient revolutionary movement in history.

    Bringing NATO in was in itself divisive and as you wrote yourself, some of those fighting were clear that it was NATO they were fighting against.

    You seem to be very much attached to parliamentary democracy as a model. The current Libyan government is of course unelected: does that not worry you at all?

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    US Defence Secretary Panetta in Tripoli "to assess the security needs of the new government." Is there anything to suggest that the Libyan Government is anything other than a US puppet ?

    This report includes a short video.

    http://english.alarabiya.net/article...17/182968.html

    Some more of Libya's money has been released from the freezes imposed in the West. Oil revenue is still right down and there are big costs in rebuilding ahead.

    U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta was in Tripoli on Saturday on the first visit to Libya by a Pentagon chief to study up close the security needs of the new government.

    “The purpose of my trip to Libya is to have an opportunity to look at that situation up close but to also pay tribute to the Libyan people to what they did in bringing (Muammar) Qaddafi down and trying to establish a government for the future,” Panetta told the traveling press.

    “There are going to be challenges here, there are going to be difficulties, but I think any country like Libya, that was able to do what they did and showed the courage that they did ... I’m confident that ultimately they’re going to be able to succeed in putting a democracy together in Libya.
    “The indications I’ve had are that they’re making progress, trying to bring the tribes together, trying to get the country together.”

    Later, addressing a joint news conference with Prime Minister Abdurrahim El-Keib, Panetta said Libya faced tough challenges in uniting the forces that toppled Gaddafi, securing arms caches and building an army, police force and democratic institutions.

    "This will be a long and difficult transition, but I am confident that you will succeed," he said.

    Asked about the militias that wield the real power on Libya's streets, Panetta said: "I'm confident they (the interim leaders) are taking the right steps to reach out to all of these groups and bring them together so they will be part of one Libya and one defence system," he is quoted by Reuters as saying.

    "I have a good sense that they know how to deal with it."

    Earlier Panetta had told the AFP correspondent traveling with him: “Obviously, we’re prepared, if they want to, provide whatever assistance they ask us to do. NATO countries have indicated the same willingness to do that.”
    The article also talks about threats to disarm the militias which would clearly be incendiary. A few days back, a militia check point fired on the new head of the armed forces, as he didn't stop for them.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Post War Libya - Where is it Going ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Lord View Post
    You can only say that because there was no election of any sort in 40 years to prove you wrong.

    But it is clear that no one fought for Gaddafi apart from a significant part of a well armed professional army that was significantly bolstered with foreign mercenaries. The people rose up arms in hand. The dictator fell. It's all good.
    How do you know so much about Libya Sam?
    "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies.”

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