Should we use the Eucharistic Congress 2012 as a point to show the Catholic Church they are not welcome?

[bernadette]

and look where it got them! There should be an aptitude test or at least they should go to the seminary, then be forced to go out into the world for a few years and then come back and then make the decision to become a priest.

+ 10

[Monetpenny]

The belief amongst church members is that the new wave of priests in Ireland will be non-nationals.
Vocations in Ireland are at an all-time low.
In my diocese there is one 'vocation'. He is the son of Italian parents & apparently he is the first priestly vocation in several years.
I know the candidates for the diaconate program in 2 of the southern dioceses.
There are 5 in total.
1 is French, 1 is Indian & a third is from Belfast.
Vocations in South America & Africa are quite strong & they have an abundance of priests in those parts of the world.

Whereas previously we exported priests we will be importing them in the near future.
There will be no 'vetting' of these priests.
Do people think that South American or African bishops will send their best stock or will the 'dodgy' priests be the ones approved for transfer?

Which category does the history of the church suggest we will receive?

[fluffybiscuits]

The belief amongst church members is that the new wave of priests in Ireland will be non-nationals.
Vocations in Ireland are at an all-time low.
In my diocese there is one 'vocation'. He is the son of Italian parents & apparently he is the first priestly vocation in several years.
I know the candidates for the diaconate program in 2 of the southern dioceses.
There are 5 in total.
1 is French, 1 is Indian & a third is from Belfast.
Vocations in South America & Africa are quite strong & they have an abundance of priests in those parts of the world.

Whereas previously we exported priests we will be importing them in the near future.
There will be no 'vetting' of these priests.
Do people think that South American or African bishops will send their best stock or will the 'dodgy' priests be the ones approved for transfer?

Which category does the history of the church suggest we will receive?

What my suggestion originally was , was to psychologically evaluate all the priests before they joined the priesthood irrespectively. Its like being in training to be an astronaut, its a long lonely time and can come with long times of depression . A man may feel the calling of the cloth but wether he is cut out to be part of it is another question completely. A lot of priests would be working in a situation like those who work in creches, you wouldnt just let any sod into to work with a vunerable group ...

[Monetpenny]

Fluffybiscuits,

But the church's constituency are the vulnerable.
Deacons are expected to visit prisoners.
I was at a diocesan gathering & a man was pointed out to me by a deacon candidate.
This man was highlighted to me as his father & brother had been murdered.

If it wasn't for the vulnerable or those that are suffering they would have no devotees.
And of course there are also those that earn from the church.
I'm a bit conflicted by the religion/superstition industry.
My wife has become more 'other-worldly', not necessarily more religious/superstitious, since her mother died.
I could see the obvious benefits of the whole burial procedure.
I've done a bereavement counselling course & the therapeutic nature of funerals is easy to recognise.

But there is something about the catholic church enterprise that reminds me of the snake-oil merchants or professional mediums.
Whilst some see it as helping those in need there is a significant element of this activity that is cynical preying on the weak.

This is where the vetting of church candidates will fail.
We want people that won't take advantage of the vulnerable, but the raison d'être of the church is to come into contact with the vulnerable & take advantage of their vulnerabilities.

[fluffybiscuits]

Fluffybiscuits,

But the church's constituency are the vulnerable.
Deacons are expected to visit prisoners.
I was at a diocesan gathering & a man was pointed out to me by a deacon candidate.
This man was highlighted to me as his father & brother had been murdered.

If it wasn't for the vulnerable or those that are suffering they would have no devotees.
And of course there are also those that earn from the church.
I'm a bit conflicted by the religion/superstition industry.
My wife has become more 'other-worldly', not necessarily more religious/superstitious, since her mother died.
I could see the obvious benefits of the whole burial procedure.
I've done a bereavement counselling course & the therapeutic nature of funerals is easy to recognise.

But there is something about the catholic church enterprise that reminds me of the snake-oil merchants or professional mediums.
Whilst some see it as helping those in need there is a significant element of this activity that is cynical preying on the weak.

This is where the vetting of church candidates will fail.
We want people that won't take advantage of the vulnerable, but the raison d'être of the church is to come into contact with the vulnerable & take advantage of their vulnerabilities.

I take no issue with the deacons, they dont go through the full rigours that priests have to but your post helps me to appreciate that they are a valuable part of society somewhat, even if in my opinion its a minor one .

[Monetpenny]

Deacons complete a 4 year course.
The 1st is a Propaedeutic Year or year for discernment.
In this year they decide if they want to proceed and/or if the church wants them.
Then follows 3 years of study of mythology & superstition.
I think it's 1500hrs in total in research, essay writing & lectures.
They are also expected to do 2.5hrs of pastoral work every wk for each of those 3 academic yrs.
It's a very long & intensive course.

The problem with the course is it precludes many people.
You can't have children under 18.
You must be between 25 & 60 years of age.
Single men must take a vow of celibacy (not that it seemed to matter to many priests).
If your wife dies you must take a vow of celibacy & you're not permitted to remarry.

Those rules combined with the arduous academic requirements means the only people they will get are those with plenty of time on their hands (the unemployed/retired) & those who are experiencing marital difficulties or those that were too contrary to get married in the 1st place.

[fluffybiscuits]

I can see now what you mean, I read up somewhat on it (well a cursory glance!!)

http://www.lancastervocations.org/20...utic-year.html

Father John Flynn, a young priest from the Diocese of Salford, who was one of the first candidates to take part in the Vallodolid Propaedeutic Year in 1997 said: ”The Propaedeutic Year, set up by the current bishop of Middlesbrough, Bishop Drainey is a year of preparation for all things priestly for men who are discerning their vocation and who probably in all likelihood would want to go on to be a priest.

“A year spent learning the basics of the faith, reading the catechism, having an introduction to prayer, a regular holy hour….learning about the saints, those kind of things, reading the Bible as well…all these things were given to us, the bits and pieces and nuts of bolts which would furnish us for our later studies.”

[Monetpenny]

In these lectures they are told that there is no actual evidence that Jesus ever existed, yet they are still compelled to believe.
It's like when Lionel Hutz in The Simpsons was asked did he have any evidence at all. He said "We've plenty of hearsay & conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."
For christianity you keep the hearsay & conjecture add a dash of 'tradition', a sprig of pious fraud & great big dollops of bootlegging of pre-existing myths to create your own superstitious mythology.

I don't understand how in institutions that are supposed to educate & strive for the truth that the criteria of evidence & fact are dismissed so nonchalantly.
I don't understand in a country where we have mobile phones, satellite tvs, i-phones, agriculture, libraries, waterproof footwear & doctors that people feel obliged to believe that there is a god.
If you can dress yourself in the morning & know that moon does not have it's own light source, that it merely reflects the light from the sun, you are too intelligent to believe in jesus.

[fluffybiscuits]

In these lectures they are told that there is no actual evidence that Jesus ever existed, yet they are still compelled to believe.
It's like when Lionel Hutz in The Simpsons was asked did he have any evidence at all. He said "We've plenty of hearsay & conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence."
For christianity you keep the hearsay & conjecture add a dash of 'tradition', a sprig of pious fraud & great big dollops of bootlegging of pre-existing myths to create your own superstitious mythology.

I don't understand how in institutions that are supposed to educate & strive for the truth that the criteria of evidence & fact are dismissed so nonchalantly.
I don't understand in a country where we have mobile phones, satellite tvs, i-phones, agriculture, libraries, waterproof footwear & doctors that people feel obliged to believe that there is a god.
If you can dress yourself in the morning & know that moon does not have it's own light source, that it merely reflects the light from the sun, you are too intelligent to believe in jesus.

Do you live with Capn Con by any chance Love that explanation and will not in any way disagree. The notions of such a being existing fly in the face of science itself. Faith has them conditioned to accept such things without question . The pope says, therefore it must be true....

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Monetpenny's posts are bang on with anything I've ever read or discovered about the RCC 'history'.

It is just the world's first globalised corporation whose product was prepared superstition and their market was the uneducated and uneasy. Which was the most part of the population in the times it greatly expanded its population.

The unease may still be there but so much has been explained now that there is simply more reason to have 'faith' that the so-far unexplained will at some point be explained.

If you were to do a simple exercise in social studies of drawing a line between where Roman Catholicism still holds sway over a population and the level of education in those societies- even matched against the length of time those populations have begun moving towards urbanism and away from pastoralism then you can't fail to notice Latin America and Africa.

Education is the Pandora's box for the priestly-paid.

[fluffybiscuits]

Monetpenny's posts are bang on with anything I've ever read or discovered about the RCC 'history'.

It is just the world's first globalised corporation whose product was prepared superstition and their market was the uneducated and uneasy. Which was the most part of the population in the times it greatly expanded its population.

The unease may still be there but so much has been explained now that there is simply more reason to have 'faith' that the so-far unexplained will at some point be explained.

If you were to do a simple exercise in social studies of drawing a line between where Roman Catholicism still holds sway over a population and the level of education in those societies- even matched against the length of time those populations have begun moving towards urbanism and away from pastoralism then you can't fail to notice Latin America and Africa.

Education is the Pandora's box for the priestly-paid.

This begs the question then is education and religious belief tied in. We all know that people are going to cite the fact there is scientists that will tell us that they are physicists and believe in a being in flowing robes but do people honestly never question it themselves? Faith is the mechanism with which prevents them from doing so, critical thinking is not encouraged so therefore they are never open to looking at the idea of god existing as this would conflict with the belief system they hold.

[Monetpenny]

You are supposed to question your faith if you are catholic.
I believe that it was at the same vatican council that fideism & rationalism were made heresies.
Fideism is a belief in god based purely on faith with no reason.
Rationalism is a belief in god based purely on reason without faith.
A belief in god is supposed to be based on faith & reason-otherwise it is heresy.

The overwhelming majority of those that profess to have great faith are, in the eyes of the church, committing the heresy of fideism as their belief has no element of reason.

The irony is that if the test of reason was applied to their beliefs the faith could not stand up to even a cursory examination.

Education & truth are the enemies of believers.
By controlling the education of our youth these charlatans are enslaving the young minds with their mythology & superstition for another generation.

It's interesting to hear the elders speak about the young.
Every time one mentions to another about some event you can be certain the other will ask how many young people were in attendance.
I witnessed a meeting where 2 young people who had been to the world youth day in Madrid addressed a crowd of elders.
I was struck by the 2nd speaker who spoke about how the crowd chanted 'Benedictus! Benedictus!' when the pope moved through the crowd to the altar.
To me it sounded like unhealthy fascist adulation & I was reminded of the Nuremberg rallies.

I've seen photographs chronicling the events in Nuremberg & Madrid & I've not been dissuaded of that notion.

[fluffybiscuits]

You are supposed to question your faith if you are catholic.
I believe that it was at the same vatican council that fideism & rationalism were made heresies.
Fideism is a belief in god based purely on faith with no reason.
Rationalism is a belief in god based purely on reason without faith.
A belief in god is supposed to be based on faith & reason-otherwise it is heresy.

The overwhelming majority of those that profess to have great faith are, in the eyes of the church, committing the heresy of fideism as their belief has no element of reason.

The irony is that if the test of reason was applied to their beliefs the faith could not stand up to even a cursory examination.

Education & truth are the enemies of believers.
By controlling the education of our youth these charlatans are enslaving the young minds with their mythology & superstition for another generation.

It's interesting to hear the elders speak about the young.
Every time one mentions to another about some event you can be certain the other will ask how many young people were in attendance.
I witnessed a meeting where 2 young people who had been to the world youth day in Madrid addressed a crowd of elders.
I was struck by the 2nd speaker who spoke about how the crowd chanted 'Benedictus! Benedictus!' when the pope moved through the crowd to the altar.
To me it sounded like unhealthy fascist adulation & I was reminded of the Nuremberg rallies.

I've seen photographs chronicling the events in Nuremberg & Madrid & I've not been dissuaded of that notion.

I can now say I have learnt something new today now! If such a thing were the case then Pascals wager would be more or less redundant wouldnt it? Act like you believe even if you dont is acting like you have faith and by virtue of this you are committing sin so therefore there is no point believing as you are not going to get into heaven as you are in a permenant state of sin? (Where is Cato when you need him, he has a great mind for these things!!). It appears to be a paradox of sorts!

The same adulation that is offered up to Benedictus was also reserved more so and more wholeheartedly for Pope JP 2nd whom for all intensive purposes was a prick. He can be attributed to helping spread AIDS with his stance against condoms . I dont believe in holding back as far as the popes are concerned....

[Shaadi]

The same adulation that is offered up to Benedictus was also reserved more so and more wholeheartedly for Pope JP 2nd whom for all intensive purposes was a prick. He can be attributed to helping spread AIDS with his stance against condoms . I dont believe in holding back as far as the popes are concerned....

The fast tracking of JP II to "sainthood" is a particularly cynical and self-aggrandising exercise by Rome.

We were only following orders and the man giving them was a saint. There's not an ounce of genuine remorse in that rotten institution.

The buck stopped with JP II, except it didn't because there were never any repercussions for him and now he's going to be a saint. Patron Saint of Paedophiles more like.

[bernadette]

The fast tracking of JP II to "sainthood" is a particularly cynical and self-aggrandising exercise by Rome.

We were only following orders and the man giving them was a saint. There's not an ounce of genuine remorse in that rotten institution.

The buck stopped with JP II, except it didn't because there were never any repercussions for him and now he's going to be a saint. Patron Saint of Paedophiles more like.

Most of the abuse scandals became public during his reign, and because he was in power so long a lot of the abuse occurred during his reign too. As far as I know the only thing the RCC hierarchy have ever tried to do in relation to child abuse, sexual, emotional or physical, is to intimidate the abused and hide the RCCs own bank balances. A disgraceful organisation it should be banned.