ETA and Post ETA - Basque Separatism and Spanish Politics

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

True- I think that not all nationalism is inherently dangerous. I believe it is a neutral actor which at least protects cultural heritage- Europe has always been a cultural melting pot anyway and I notice no brake on cultural exchange in Europe attributable to national borders historically speaking.

In fact cultural exchange never recognised national borders anyway- it is a weird mistake of the 'left' to believe that national boundaries lead to war. It is also where globalising corporations and centralist leftwingers agree most of all but for very different reasons. Corporations want no borders where they trade, on cost and homogeneity of product reasons, and idealogues of the left want centralisation to underpin command economies and centralised control of the means of production. The 'free movement of peoples' is agreed upon as a good thing by Comrade and Corporate but for very different reasons

The greatest exchange of knowledge in European history actually came from across the eastern gate with the rediscovery of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato in the hands of Muslim scholars and lead to a great cultural leap forward in western Europe. National borders did not hinder that in any way. Arguably the unearthing of this ancient wisdom by scholars from industrialist Britain and France was only possible as an offshoot of the success of the nation state.

[Ogiol]

True- I think that not all nationalism is inherently dangerous. I believe it is a neutral actor which at least protects cultural heritage- Europe has always been a cultural melting pot anyway and I notice no brake on cultural exchange in Europe attributable to national borders historically speaking.

In fact cultural exchange never recognised national borders anyway- it is a weird mistake of the 'left' to believe that national boundaries lead to war. It is also where globalising corporations and centralist leftwingers agree most of all but for very different reasons. Corporations want no borders where they trade, on cost and homogeneity of product reasons, and idealogues of the left want centralisation to underpin command economies and centralised control of the means of production. The 'free movement of peoples' is agreed upon as a good thing by Comrade and Corporate but for very different reasons

The greatest exchange of knowledge in European history actually came from across the eastern gate with the rediscovery of Aristotle, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato in the hands of Muslim scholars and lead to a great cultural leap forward in western Europe. National borders did not hinder that in any way. Arguably the unearthing of this ancient wisdom by scholars from industrialist Britain and France was only possible as an offshoot of the success of the nation state.

I agree. Nationalism from the right has a history of being VERY dangerous, but left nationalism has more of a history of protecting culture and heritage and fostering a weaken nation.

Back to Basque country. On the saturday before the election, It was the 1 year anniversary of the unilateral cessation of hostilities by ETA. They are no longer a factor in politics however the spanish state has not refrained from hostile actions. It continues with its dispersal of prisioners, fruit of which is the death of many related family during trips to visit them. The spanish state was also once again condemned for state terrorism and torture by the European Court of Human Rights just a fortnight ago. Turns out they closed and arreseted a newspaper and its journalists then tortured them. They were not members of ETA but they did believe in basque independence. Egunkaria was the name of the paper.

http://forwhatwearetheywillbe.blogsp...n-for-not.html

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I think I recall reading that the Spanish state has a lot of form in treating prisoners and their families badly.

In particular this dispersal of prisoners to opposite ends of that state is an old caper there.

[Ogiol]

I think I recall reading that the Spanish state has a lot of form in treating prisoners and their families badly.

In particular this dispersal of prisoners to opposite ends of that state is an old caper there.

Dispersal, and the brits tried it too and done it but as nationalists successfully internationalised the conflict they were shamed into stopping that policy.

Spain though, has no shame. The PP, who continuously tow the 'condemn this and that line' have never, and probably will never, condemn the Franco dictatorship. Instead they publically argue that it was 40 years of peace. They have no shame really so I reckon they will keep up the policy of dispersal and continue being condemned for torture by the ECHR. Its a sad state of affairs and something that is feeding the seperatism of the basques and catalans.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

One of the most puzzling conundrums ever- why Falangists assume repression is anything but a losing game over time for them.

I think it must be something to do with the psychology of the extremist rightwinger. How many time have we seen in modern history and for example in Libya and Syria where juntas assume that they can return to their control of countries after committing atrocities?

You see the same sort of foaming nuttery among Irish radical conservatives- urging for riot cops to split heads and that kind of thing. It plays immediately into the hands of those who oppose them.

[Ogiol]

One of the most puzzling conundrums ever- why Falangists assume repression is anything but a losing game over time for them.

I think it must be something to do with the psychology of the extremist rightwinger. How many time have we seen in modern history and for example in Libya and Syria where juntas assume that they can return to their control of countries after committing atrocities?

You see the same sort of foaming nuttery among Irish radical conservatives- urging for riot cops to split heads and that kind of thing. It plays immediately into the hands of those who oppose them.

Im not so sure that really applies in spain. They have had control over eduaction for a long time and that has had the effect of the layman thinking that Franco's regime wasn't such a bad thing and that those who say differently are just provoking conflict. There has also been a supression of what is called ''historic memory'', i.e. the recognisiing of the victems of the regime and the admitting blame. The judiciary are very quick to act on anything that doesn't follow the status quo and that was the reason that Garzón (an ex-judge), who wanted to unearth these crimes and start giving justice to the victems, was basically fired and told to take a hike.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Yes. We know that in Ireland too. The hurried attempts by an establishment to provide a blank spot in the nation's history and the vicious reaction against anyone with an interest in detail, accuracy and at least some honesty.

Ireland hasn't been referred to as 'the sow that eats her own farrow' for nothing. The Irish establishment is one of the most naturally reactionary in Europe, much of which is automatic and comes with a narrow worldview and a distinctly incestuous establishment based on a fringe society at the edge of Europe.

Think of the apes of Gibraltar and you have your Ned O'Keeffe's, O'Cuivs, Coughlans, O'Rourkes. Even the so-called intellectuals of the Irish political establishment such as Martin Mansaaaaaaargghgh (he studied classics/philosophy ya know) are basically apeing a gentility they see in period drama on the BBC or a weird sort of 1950s respectability rather than actually responding to any contemporary social dynamic.

We had, in the middle of the worst crisis in the state's economic history, a motion and debate in our national parliament on whether men should be made wear ties in the Oireachtas. Apes with their noses pressed up against the windowpanes of the clubland of St James' in London.

[Ogiol]

Yes. We know that in Ireland too. The hurried attempts by an establishment to provide a blank spot in the nation's history and the vicious reaction against anyone with an interest in detail, accuracy and at least some honesty.

Ireland hasn't been referred to as 'the sow that eats her own farrow' for nothing.

Lol, I've never heard that one before, where's it from??

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Lol, I've never heard that one before, where's it from??

Joyce, and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man I think... just think for a minute of the debate about 'who we should be like' in Irish political affairs.

Berlin. Boston. Beijing. No room for Dublin or even consciousness of how weird it is for a nation to have its own senior politicians debating who we should be more like. How about a conversation about what being Irish in the 21st century should mean? Unthinkable. We must be 'like' someone else.

Boredom Warning: There were small islands in the Panhellenic League which were nations in their own minds and were able to retain their identify a hell of a lot a lot longer than the Republic of Ireland has and against far bigger threats. Then again they started from a position of defending something distinct whereas our lot are looking for a backhander to sell the island out.

[Ogiol]

Joyce, and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man I think... just think for a minute of the debate about 'who we should be like' in Irish political affairs.

Berlin. Boston. Beijing. No room for Dublin or even consciousness of how weird it is for a nation to have its own senior politicians debating who we should be more like. How about a conversation about what being Irish in the 21st century should mean? Unthinkable. We must be 'like' someone else.

Boredom Warning: There were small islands in the Panhellenic League which were nations in their own minds and were able to retain their identify a hell of a lot a lot longer than the Republic of Ireland has and against far bigger threats. Then again they started from a position of defending something distinct whereas our lot are looking for a backhander to sell the island out.

Nice one, Ive never read portrait its on the to read list tho

Can you imagine berlin or boston having a debate on who they should be more like. No chance. But then again we are a colonised people and the fact that we speak english and are a small nation means that its made seem ok to just look to see what london or boston do and copy them.

I beleive that without a strong autoctonous language and cultural revival we will not be able to regain out independence of thought. In english, public discourse here is all deferal to somewhere else. Look at the healt service debate, its all lets look to see who to copy. There is no original thought because we, as a nation, have become unoriginal, ununique. Our nationhood has been eroded just as our language and cultural identity has been and until things flip and we learn to cherish our own heritage then we will continue with the defferal of public discourse and continue to be mere customers rather than citizens.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Have to agree Ogiol. The lack of knowledge about our own culture prior to colonialism (either one of the two colonial experiences, the physical and the psychological) is actually preventing us from moving forward as an autonomous people.

We've been taught by default that we were 'barbaric' before the two colonisations and that insecurity remains and emerges in that strand of political discourse in 'who we should be like'.

[Apjp]

Have to agree Ogiol. The lack of knowledge about our own culture prior to colonialism (either one of the two colonial experiences, the physical and the psychological) is actually preventing us from moving forward as an autonomous people.

We've been taught by default that we were 'barbaric' before the two colonisations and that insecurity remains and emerges in that strand of political discourse in 'who we should be like'.

It's an insidious inplant left by former rulers. The sooner nationalism makes a comeback the better.

[Holly]

It's an insidious inplant left by former rulers. The sooner nationalism makes a comeback the better.

We have had enough nationalism in Ireland already. Give it a rest please.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

No we haven't. One good example- we haven't even had a nation yet. To get sick of something one generally has to have experienced it.

I'd kind of like to try it. I've heard a lot of talk about it.

[Apjp]

Nonsense Holly. We had 51 years of independence for the 26 counties and given the hold the Church had on society back then, it is debatable over whether that was true independence. It certainly wasn't a republic or an exercise of nationhood, with the only notable positive exercises of sovereignty that I recall being a death penalty for traitors, neutrality in world war two and De Valera wisely deciding to keep Ireland out of the original European Union due to his belief that it would be worse than the old act of union(Granted De Valera and wise are not two very exchangeable words). In other words, the old Irish state was at its best when it was forced to defend its neutrality or its sovereignty, and otherwise left a lot to be desired. Mind you, if we had such independence now, and got rid of the three main parties we would have a lot going for us.