Do we want a Sinn Fein government ?

[fluffybiscuits]

First off to set the record straight I have a very intense dislike for SInn Fein but lets face it they are going to get into government in the next election but do we want them there? We all know about the IRA past of Maguinness and the questions over Adams past and Mary Loo being ex FF. Do we want these people running the country ? They supported the blank cheque for the bankers and today tried to appeal to the popular vote by throwing drama queen antics and walking out of the Dail. Who are these people? They dont represent me. The future however of SF looks bright, they have Pearse Doherty whom is not attached to the old guard and is not tainted by the past. The man is a beacon of light on what should be a sinking ship.


Floor is open for comment....

[culmore]

sinn Fein are the New FF, they will be in government in about 10 yrs time

[fluffybiscuits]

sinn Fein are the New FF, they will be in government in about 10 yrs time

Not sure about the new FF but they will tow the populist line. They are worried if they dont they wont get in at all. Tell the people what they want to hear...

[Dr. FIVE]

sinn Fein are the New FF,

+10

Will say anything to get in, will do the same as the rest when if they do.
No clothes, codding yourself if you think otherwise because there is no evidence to the contrary

[Cáthasaigh]

+10

Will say anything to get in, will do the same as the rest when if they do.
No clothes, codding yourself if you think otherwise because there is no evidence to the contrary

+∞

I've been saying SF were the new FF for ages and if given the opportunity they will indulge in the same gangster politics.

[Dr. FIVE]

Sinn Féin minister found guilty of religious discrimination

http://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-minister-found-guilty-of-religious-discrimination-495007-Jun2012/

[Ogiol]

First off to set the record straight I have a very intense dislike for SInn Fein but lets face it they are going to get into government in the next election but do we want them there? We all know about the IRA past of Maguinness and the questions over Adams past and Mary Loo being ex FF. Do we want these people running the country ? They supported the blank cheque for the bankers and today tried to appeal to the popular vote by throwing drama queen antics and walking out of the Dail. Who are these people? They dont represent me. The future however of SF looks bright, they have Pearse Doherty whom is not attached to the old guard and is not tainted by the past. The man is a beacon of light on what should be a sinking ship.


Floor is open for comment....


I dont have an intense dislike of Sinn Féin, I understand the reasons for the beginning of the troubles and am an Ulster person so have a desire 4 my country to be reunited. (the border has reeked economic havoc in all the border counties) I would certainly want them running the country but in a coalition with the ULA so as to keep them in left-wing check. I am, though, aware of their long-game strategy and of the pragmatism of the leadership, so if they drifted to the centre I would certainly not blindly vote for them. Currently, and for most of their recent history they are left of centre, where there is a big gap in the market and maybe where the old 'real' social demacratic parties would have been. I'm also convinced that the young guns are certainly more left-wing than the older ones. So, Yes, I do want to see them in government, but not quite yet. If they can force FG in with FF after the next election I think they can do the country a big service. I feel they might just do that. (FG will not be able to gain a majority with only labour and indos).

:):p

[riposte]

Do we want these people running the country ?
Floor is open for comment....

Fluffy ....... who are "we"? ......... and referring any group of humans as "these people" is a term of demonisation ........which exhibits an extreme negative bias.

The Floor may be open ..... but the Chair is not impartial.

[Slim Buddha]

Sinn Fein are economically illiterate but then, so are the schoolteachers running things now. This government will not get within 30 seats of getting re-elected but if it came to a choice between Sinn Fein and the Frankenstein's monster of a resurgent Fianna Fail, I would pick the Shinners as the lesser of two evils.

[Shaadi]

Yes, but I'm under no illusions that they'd be that much different than the others. They are at least outsiders ( for now ) who don't have the establishments hand up their backsides.

I want a left of centre Govt, that provides a decent social safety net, educational system and universal health care. I also want a business friendly environment to provide employment and the wealth creation. These are necessary goals for SF to reach if they want to make a UI attractive to the people of the six counties.

How do I get what I want? I vote for the candidates and parties most likely to provide that. I'll vote for the ULA/SF/IND even though the ULA wouldn't be seen to be pro-business. I'd give a chastened Labour party a vote in the future if they copped themselves on.

I gave FG a number 2 in 2007 as a protest against Ahern. It felt dirty, but it was a pragmatic way of using my vote to fight Aherns corruption. We're all going to have to get a little dirty if we want to defeat the monopoly that FG/FF hold on the the senior partner position in Irish Govt.

Politics is the art of the possible, those who oppose the Irish establishment and it's lackeys vice like grip on the country should be prepared to work together to defeat it. That means left/right and centre using their combined 50% non FF/FG vote to knock these establishment lackeys off their perch.

[Slim Buddha]

Yes, but I'm under no illusions that they'd be that much different than the others. They are at least outsiders ( for now ) who don't have the establishments hand up their backsides.

I want a left of centre Govt, that provides a decent social safety net, educational system and universal health care. I also want a business friendly environment to provide employment and the wealth creation. These are necessary goals for SF to reach if they want to make a UI attractive to the people of the six counties.

How do I get what I want? I vote for the candidates and parties most likely to provide that. I'll vote for the ULA/SF/IND even though the ULA wouldn't be seen to be pro-business. I'd give a chastened Labour party a vote in the future if they copped themselves on.
I gave FG a number 2 in 2007 as a protest against Ahern. It felt dirty, but it was a pragmatic way of using my vote to fight Aherns corruption. We're all going to have to get a little dirty if we want to defeat the monopoly that FG/FF hold on the the senior partner position in Irish Govt.

Politics is the art of the possible, those who oppose the Irish establishment and it's lackeys vice like grip on the country should be prepared to work together to defeat it. That means left/right and centre using their combined 50% non FF/FG vote to knock these establishment lackeys off their perch.

No sign of them ever copping on. Each time they go into coalition, they have their noses in the trough and wonder why the electorate "disproportionately" punish them at the following election. Hopeless cases.

[Saoirse go Deo]

I'm a member of SF but I don't want them in government the next time round, the time after perhaps.

Although I could be swayed by some major constitutional concessions or if they are by far the senior party in a coalition.

[Baron von Biffo]

No sign of them ever copping on. Each time they go into coalition, they have their noses in the trough and wonder why the electorate "disproportionately" punish them at the following election. Hopeless cases.


The one time that Lab did deliver on their manifesto was in the 92/97 governments - They were hammered for their pains.

Funnily enough, the only other time I can recall a party honouring its manifesto was FF in 77 - They were hammered for their pains.

In Irish politics, honouring pledges costs seats.

[fluffybiscuits]

I dont have an intense dislike of Sinn Féin, I understand the reasons for the beginning of the troubles and am an Ulster person so have a desire 4 my country to be reunited. (the border has reeked economic havoc in all the border counties) I would certainly want them running the country but in a coalition with the ULA so as to keep them in left-wing check. I am, though, aware of their long-game strategy and of the pragmatism of the leadership, so if they drifted to the centre I would certainly not blindly vote for them. Currently, and for most of their recent history they are left of centre, where there is a big gap in the market and maybe where the old 'real' social demacratic parties would have been. I'm also convinced that the young guns are certainly more left-wing than the older ones. So, Yes, I do want to see them in government, but not quite yet. If they can force FG in with FF after the next election I think they can do the country a big service. I feel they might just do that. (FG will not be able to gain a majority with only labour and indos).

:):p

Just spotted this thread now , this is an oldie thread ! I think that they would be best in government with ULA , each other could keep an eye on the other. Shinners do have an approach to business and leave the social policies up to the ULA, both could do well working in tandem. Shinners have a future but need to ditch the old guard in Adams and Maguinness and send Mary Loo off to be an ambassador to Antartica or something like that if they get into government. They can be the real alternative but need to stop with the populist bullshit :)

[Saoirse go Deo]

Whats wrong with Mary Lou? I think she is fantastic

[fluffybiscuits]

Whats wrong with Mary Lou? I think she is fantastic

During an interview with VB last yeat she waffled on and on about taxing the rich ( its an idea I agree with) and she was wibbling on about studies but didnt appear to me to know what she was on about.

Things like this also dont sit well with me

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sfs-nazi-hero-is-stalking-candidate-mary-lou-481013.html

She needs a slicker PR person.....

[bernadette]

Do we want SF in government?? NO! not under their current leadership. No way!

[Saoirse go Deo]

During an interview with VB last yeat she waffled on and on about taxing the rich ( its an idea I agree with) and she was wibbling on about studies but didnt appear to me to know what she was on about.

Things like this also dont sit well with me

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sfs-nazi-hero-is-stalking-candidate-mary-lou-481013.html

She needs a slicker PR person.....

Russel gets a very unfair reputation.

I don't think he did anything wrong, remember this was in 1939/40 before anyone knew about the horrors of the Nazis. Furthermore he was ideologically opposed to them and they suspected him of being a communist spy (some say that he didn't die naturally but he was assassinated on the U - boat because of these suspicions)

He saw England's difficulty as being Ireland's opportunity and like Casement he sought aid from Britain's enemy.

Sure the Allies threw their lot in with Stalin, who killed millions of his own.

I think he was a great Irish patriot.

[fluffybiscuits]

Russel gets a very unfair reputation.

I don't think he did anything wrong, remember this was in 1939/40 before anyone knew about the horrors of the Nazis. Furthermore he was ideologically opposed to them and they suspected him of being a communist spy (some say that he didn't die naturally but he was assassinated on the U - boat because of these suspicions)

He saw England's difficulty as being Ireland's opportunity and like Casement he sought aid from Britain's enemy.

Sure the Allies threw their lot in with Stalin, who killed millions of his own.

I think he was a great Irish patriot.

The old adage the enemy of my enemy is my friend :)

[Saoirse go Deo]

The old adage the enemy of my enemy is my friend :)
Pretty much, the Irish have always sought aid from oversees, the French, the Spanish, the Germans, Americans etc

[Sam Lord]

Sure the Allies threw their lot in with Stalin, who killed millions of his own.


That's one of the most admirable things about Sinn Fein. How well informed their members are and their ever readiness to look beyond the trite propaganda the bourgeoisie has driven into their heads in the guise of an education.

[Slim Buddha]

The one time that Lab did deliver on their manifesto was in the 92/97 governments - They were hammered for their pains.

Funnily enough, the only other time I can recall a party honouring its manifesto was FF in 77 - They were hammered for their pains.

In Irish politics, honouring pledges costs seats.

One of the abiding memories of the Labour participation in government at that time was of Niamh Breathnach using the state as an employment agency for her family.

[Ogiol]

Just spotted this thread now , this is an oldie thread ! I think that they would be best in government with ULA , each other could keep an eye on the other. Shinners do have an approach to business and leave the social policies up to the ULA, both could do well working in tandem. Shinners have a future but need to ditch the old guard in Adams and Maguinness and send Mary Loo off to be an ambassador to Antartica or something like that if they get into government. They can be the real alternative but need to stop with the populist bullshit :)

Hey fluff, it would be interesting to find out what made you change your mind so much then :p

I dont think they need to ditch the old guard yet, the leadership has stuck it out and if they were to retire then they wouldnt be able to defend themselves from all the guff thrown at them by the free-state media. They have also give stability to the party and seen it grow hugely. In a way they are being vindicated..
Not sure I'd leave all the social policies to the ULA nor all the business to Sinn Féin, a nice wee mix would do well.

Populist bullshit you say.... mmmm, that word is bandied about like no other these days. Supose if you differ from the status quo you become a populist. They quite clearly are targetting what they call low and middle income earners (thats about 70% or more of the potential electorate)- populist indeed.

Personally I think we need a bit of populist flag-waving this day and age, as in someone to stand up 4 the country. The present and past governments tow the inferiority complex line and thus deter many people from voting, keeping themselves in power and keeping Brussels and Berlin happy. :mad:

[riposte]

She needs a slicker PR person.....

So Sinn Fein are not fit for government because their PR is not "slick" enough.

I would have to question the motives of anybody who regards "Slick PR" as a high priority for government.

Funnily enough Fluffy I have observed several of your posts where you accuse Sinn Fein of being too slick with their PR ...... but my life is to short to go looking for them now.

This is akin to your accusation that Putin is "populist" while at the same time questioning whether he was the popular choice of the people of Russia.

You'd need read a few books on logic Fluffy.

[fluffybiscuits]

Hey fluff, it would be interesting to find out what made you change your mind so much then :p

I dont think they need to ditch the old guard yet, the leadership has stuck it out and if they were to retire then they wouldnt be able to defend themselves from all the guff thrown at them by the free-state media. They have also give stability to the party and seen it grow hugely. In a way they are being vindicated..
Not sure I'd leave all the social policies to the ULA nor all the business to Sinn Féin, a nice wee mix would do well.

Populist bullshit you say.... mmmm, that word is bandied about like no other these days. Supose if you differ from the status quo you become a populist. They quite clearly are targetting what they call low and middle income earners (thats about 70% or more of the potential electorate)- populist indeed.

Personally I think we need a bit of populist flag-waving this day and age, as in someone to stand up 4 the country. The present and past governments tow the inferiority complex line and thus deter many people from voting, keeping themselves in power and keeping Brussels and Berlin happy. :mad:

They have reared the party well and all their history aside they could stick around perhaps for a litle longer to teach the young'uns how to deal with the messy issues that arise (as Pearse had with the silly debacle over the spending of money on helpers for the party when it was ear marked for travel expenses . Shinners do tell the people what they like to here but part of me perhaps is desperate for them to live up to what they say, many people are the same perhaps borne out of frustration witht the status quo. If Sinn Fein tommorrow said that they could deliver promises on better social and economical improvement and show me proof I would definitely think about supporting them.


So Sinn Fein are not fit for government because their PR is not "slick" enough.

I would have to question the motives of anybody who regards "Slick PR" as a high priority for government.

Funnily enough Fluffy I have observed several of your posts where you accuse Sinn Fein of being too slick with their PR ...... but my life is to short to go looking for them now.

This is akin to your accusation that Putin is "populist" while at the same time questioning whether he was the popular choice of the people of Russia.

You'd need read a few books on logic Fluffy.

Shinners have a very slick PR machine , some of their politicians should avail of it more :)

Logic = realism in a lot of cases, Im an idealist, they dont go hand in hand a lot fo the time ;)

[riposte]

Logic = realism in a lot of cases, Im an idealist, they dont go hand in hand a lot fo the time ;)

Good for you Fluffy .... no logic necessary in Utopia. :)

[Baron von Biffo]

http://cache.tcm.ie/media/images/a/AntiAusterityMarchBelfastOct2012PHOTOPRESS_large.j pg

A vision of a future SF government here. Not all that different to what we have at the moment, is it?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/resist-cruel-austerity-cult-belfast-rally-told-571206.html

Special pleading starts in 5, 5, 3...

[Slim Buddha]

http://cache.tcm.ie/media/images/a/AntiAusterityMarchBelfastOct2012PHOTOPRESS_large.j pg

A vision of a future SF government here. Not all that different to what we have at the moment, is it?
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/resist-cruel-austerity-cult-belfast-rally-told-571206.html

Special pleading starts in 5, 5, 3...

Well, it kind of is different. Kenny, Noonan, Gilomre et al are saying "YES!!" to austerity.

[Kev Bar]

That's one of the most admirable things about Sinn Fein. How well informed their members are and their ever readiness to look beyond the trite propaganda the bourgeoisie has driven into their heads in the guise of an education.


Yeah.

All that trite propaganda about the Nazis.

I mean they put people to work.

They built the autoroutes.

Come the day Sam, you'll be able to beat a better education into kids.

Tioc etc etc

If we take o Snodaigh as our example... he too can scum with the best of the scum.

Give the bill to the little people.

Or the Protestants.

[Baron von Biffo]

Well, it kind of is different. Kenny, Noonan, Gilomre et al are saying "YES!!" to austerity.

Well no it's not. The pic and linked article refer to a protest against austerity measures imposed by a government of which SF is part.

[Kev Bar]

Well no it's not. The pic and linked article refer to a protest against austerity measures imposed by a government of which SF is part.

No.No.No.
That can't be so.

You see there is their austerity and there is our austerity.

Theirs is austere.

Ours is .....

[bernadette]

http://cache.tcm.ie/media/images/a/AntiAusterityMarchBelfastOct2012PHOTOPRESS_large.j pg

A vision of a future SF government here. Not all that different to what we have at the moment, is it?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/resist-cruel-austerity-cult-belfast-rally-told-571206.html

Special pleading starts in 5, 5, 3...

Saying one thing and doing another sounds exactly Sinn Fein to me.

[5intheface]

Well no it's not. The pic and linked article refer to a protest against austerity measures imposed by a government of which SF is part.

Government? That's pushing it Baron. A moderately sized county council.

[bernadette]

Government? That's pushing it Baron. A moderately sized county council.

+ 100 But be fair Sinn Fein are implementing cuts in their little fiefdom

[Baron von Biffo]

Government? That's pushing it Baron. A moderately sized county council.

Local government for big lads then. :)

[simonj]

I don't see any alternatives, labour have sold out, Greens are gone

[5intheface]

+ 100 But be fair Sinn Fein are implementing cuts in their little fiefdom

Of course but there are subtle differences here and to ignore them is to tackle SF on the wrong topics.

Yes they are implementing cuts but they have no choice in that as they receive a block grant that has to be carved up with the agreement of 5 radically different parties. To pull out of such an institution would have consequences which could reach far beyond the money in the pocket. To see it as shoveling coal on the gravy train may turn out to be correct but it will only put them on a par with every party south of the border which has ever been in government.

Seeing them in power in the Dáil will be the only definitive proof of the accusations they face. Stormont is far too different to compare.

Not that I have any great confidence in them being any different but in economic terms, they're the only sizeble party that hasn't 5hit on you yet so I don't understand the remarkable antipathy from some quarters.

It obviously stems from historical events and if that is the problem then it's a bit silly considering what has happened to the island as a whole.

And that comes from someone who wouldn't consider voting for them in the north.

[bernadette]

Of course but there are subtle differences here and to ignore them is to tackle SF on the wrong topics.

Yes they are implementing cuts but they have no choice in that as they receive a block grant that has to be carved up with the agreement of 5 radically different parties. To pull out of such an institution would have consequences which could reach far beyond the money in the pocket. To see it as shoveling coal on the gravy train may turn out to be correct but it will only put them on a par with every party south of the border which has ever been in government.

Seeing them in power in the Dáil will be the only definitive proof of the accusations they face. Stormont is far too different to compare.

Not that I have any great confidence in them being any different but in economic terms, they're the only sizeble party that hasn't 5hit on you yet so I don't understand the remarkable antipathy from some quarters.

It obviously stems from historical events and if that is the problem then it's a bit silly considering what has happened to the island as a whole.

And that comes from someone who wouldn't consider voting for them in the north.

Its always possible to find an excuse. FG/Lab are only implementing cuts because the EU tells them to.

I don't believe either are correct.

[5intheface]

Its always possible to find an excuse

Don't agree bernadette, there is no excuse for what is being done either side of the border.

I'm simply pointing out that there is a major difference in the two jurisdictions.

SF have let their voters down in one so far. No point wasting the time heaping scorn on them in the south whilst the guilty still run things. That's just letting FF/FG/Lab/Greens/PDs off the hook and boy do they latch on to that sort of thing to deflect criticism of their own history.

[Baron von Biffo]

Of course but there are subtle differences here and to ignore them is to tackle SF on the wrong topics.

Yes they are implementing cuts but they have no choice in that as they receive a block grant that has to be carved up with the agreement of 5 radically different parties. To pull out of such an institution would have consequences which could reach far beyond the money in the pocket. To see it as shoveling coal on the gravy train may turn out to be correct but it will only put them on a par with every party south of the border which has ever been in government.

Seeing them in power in the Dáil will be the only definitive proof of the accusations they face. Stormont is far too different to compare.

Not that I have any great confidence in them being any different but in economic terms, they're the only sizeble party that hasn't 5hit on you yet so I don't understand the remarkable antipathy from some quarters.

It obviously stems from historical events and if that is the problem then it's a bit silly considering what has happened to the island as a whole.

And that comes from someone who wouldn't consider voting for them in the north.

The argument that the purse strings are controlled by others is just as valid on this side of the border.

[5intheface]

The argument that the purse strings are controlled by others is just as valid on this side of the border.

Last thing I want to do is be the defender of SF but they hadn't much to do with bringing the south to the point where that is true.

Conversely of course, they did walk the north in to the institutions we now have.

[Baron von Biffo]

Last thing I want to do is be the defender of SF but they hadn't much to do with bringing the south to the point where that is true.

Conversely of course, they did walk the north in to the institutions we now have.

Quite. How we got to where we are though, is of less relevance than how we deal with where we are. The protest in the North would hint that SF and it's 'coalition' partners in power there are doing more or less the same as the parties here.

[5intheface]

Quite. How we got to where we are though, is of less relevance than how we deal with where we are. The protest in the North would hint that SF and it's 'coalition' partners in power there are doing more or less the same as the parties here.

Can't argue with that, the only difference is that there is a realistic chance that something can be done about it in the south.

For the same thing to happen in the north would take considerably more that economic nouse and bravery.

[Ogiol]

The argument that the purse strings are controlled by others is just as valid on this side of the border.

Its not. We are still a soverign state. We have the democratic and historical right to do waht we decide. The 6 counties dont have that right yet.

We in the republic can raise taxes and and, if we had the balls, tell the imf to fek off. The troika could go and take a walk off a long plank as well if our ''leaders'' had the balls to tells them. Then you say where does the money come from?, Where does the money go? its the same people and maybe there will be a jolt but it needs to be done.

Its like when some posters say that we should get venezuela to exploit our oil, and others dismiss it out of hand. Really, why couldn't we??? Only because its beyond the imagination of a corrupt political and burocratic class. Yea, lets get shell, that amazingly clean company who have only been accused of thousands of murders. They grand sure.

[Baron von Biffo]

Its not. We are still a soverign state. We have the democratic and historical right to do waht we decide. The 6 counties dont have that right yet.

We in the republic can raise taxes and and, if we had the balls, tell the imf to fek off. The troika could go and take a walk off a long plank as well if our ''leaders'' had the balls to tells them. Then you say where does the money come from?, Where does the money go? its the same people and maybe there will be a jolt but it needs to be done.

Its like when some posters say that we should get venezuela to exploit our oil, and others dismiss it out of hand. Really, why couldn't we??? Only because its beyond the imagination of a corrupt political and burocratic class. Yea, lets get shell, that amazingly clean company who have only been accused of thousands of murders. They grand sure.

Sovereignty's pretty much a technicality when you let a lying drunk sign away the national treasure.

[rebellin]

Yes, but I'm under no illusions that they'd be that much different than the others. They are at least outsiders ( for now ) who don't have the establishments hand up their backsides. ... Politics is the art of the possible,.

Pragmatism will get us nowhere. WE have to fashion a new future. We have to have nonpartisan cooperation, not "you scratch my back. I'll scratch yours" compromises.

Politics is the art of the possible, you say --- well a very favorite quote of Gerry Adams is Politics is the art of the IMPOSSIBLE --- and that's what I'm looking for.

Yesterday was the anniversary of the British Empire's General Cornwallis surrendering to the American Revolutionary soldiers at Yorktown Virginia. Most people thought it IMPOSSIBLE that the mighty British Empire would ever lose to the ragtag Americans.
But they did. There are many other examples we could discuss -- but they all involve dropping our pessimism and pragmatic compromises
You can read about Cornwallis' surrender here: http://laroucheirishbrigade.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/victory-over-the-british-empire-at-yorktown/

[Slim Buddha]

Its not. We are still a soverign state. We have the democratic and historical right to do waht we decide. The 6 counties dont have that right yet.

.

Sovereign state?? FFS, our budget has to be approved in Berlin!!
THe 6 counties have endured much but at least the 6 counties have been spared Fianna Fail.

[Ogiol]

Sovereignty's pretty much a technicality when you let a lying drunk sign away the national treasure.

Not if you have someone with balls to make a good deal and tell them to take a hike. Its time lines were marked in the sand. Money is money, and money will always find money, its absurd to think that if we tell the troika to take a hike that noone else will give us minimal funding. Look at Argentina, or Malasyia...

[Baron von Biffo]

Not if you have someone with balls to make a good deal

http://www.anphoblacht.com/files/images/620/2012/EndaSmug.jpg

QED.

[disability student]

Sovereignty's pretty much a technicality when you let a lying drunk sign away the national treasure.

Wasn't the same chap that got himself in some state in Galway hotel?:D

[Apjp]

Sovereignty's pretty much a technicality when you let a lying drunk sign away the national treasure.

Never mind that Baron, Why don't you deal with his point though. Ireland is a sovereign state, and can tell the troika where to go, can it not? I'd be interested as to how much of the deficit is debt interest repayments anyways.

[Apjp]

Sovereign state?? FFS, our budget has to be approved in Berlin!!
THe 6 counties have endured much but at least the 6 counties have been spared Fianna Fail.

He makes a good point though. If we elect a government that refuses to consent to such dictations, there is nothing stopping us from doing what we deem economically necessary to spare the society further impoverishment, whether that's setting up a new currency, repudiating odious debt or even seceding from the EU if need be. Ireland is constitutionally a sovereign state. Now, that sovereignty has been very diluted due to the eu and the euro, but there have been constitutional questions raised over the validity of the bank bailout and the disastrous enforced troika programme that has stemmed from it. For all we know, we might very well still be legally a sovereign state. Or at least we might have been until we passed that bloody fiskal pakt.

[Baron von Biffo]

Wasn't the same chap that got himself in some state in Galway hotel?:D

No.

[Dr. FIVE]

can people please stop using Pragmatism as a desirable attribute.

They're political parties ffs

[Kev Bar]

Sovereign state?? FFS, our budget has to be approved in Berlin!!
THe 6 counties have endured much but at least the 6 counties have been spared Fianna Fail.

Perhaps someone with a subscription to Phoenix might stick up the piece on SF's 'sham fight' against the current moves by Westminister to implement what have been deemed the most radical attacks against society's poorest in decades.

"Stormont has accepted lock, stock and barrel the massive reduction in welfare payments which the Conservative dominated coalition at Westminister has driven through for Britian."

Wonder if this is the 'day' many on this site have proudly boasted 'will come.'


Looks like the 'boys' finally came 'eye to eye' with Maggie!

[Shaadi]

Perhaps someone with a subscription to Phoenix might stick up the piece on SF's 'sham fight' against the current moves by Westminister to implement what have been deemed the most radical attacks against society's poorest in decades.

"Stormont has accepted lock, stock and barrel the massive reduction in welfare payments which the Conservative dominated coalition at Westminister has driven through for Britian."

Wonder if this is the 'day' many on this site have proudly boasted 'will come.'


Looks like the 'boys' finally came 'eye to eye' with Maggie!For the day to come is a separate issue to SF the political party. Here's one to think about, lower welfare in the UK than in the Republic makes a UI more attractive. Just for pig iron, have any of the regional assemblies in the UK been able to block welfare cuts from being introduced in their regions?

[Kev Bar]

For the day to come is a separate issue to SF the political party. Here's one to think about, lower welfare in the UK than in the Republic makes a UI more attractive. Just for pig iron, have any of the regional assemblies in the UK been able to block welfare cuts from being introduced in their regions?

The story is quite good on the backdrop.

Think PJ or Five has a subscription and might oblige us with a few more quotes.

[fluffybiscuits]

For the day to come is a separate issue to SF the political party. Here's one to think about, lower welfare in the UK than in the Republic makes a UI more attractive. Just for pig iron, have any of the regional assemblies in the UK been able to block welfare cuts from being introduced in their regions?

On the balance why would they want to join a state where a visit to the GP costs in the region of €50 when a visit to the GP in the UK is free? I see Shinners are also towing the line of what the church seems to tell them on the recent debate on abortion when Mc Guinness said they are opposed to abortion, pretty contrary to what the rest of the liberal establishment in Shinners are believing and telling people in the vicinity. There is ample opportunity here for Shinners to get a few votes and if they cast off told old guard (get rid of Adams and Mc Guiness and all the other old heads) stop looking at Mary Lou as if she is the next messiah and get in staff like Pearse Doherty then Shinners may even get a vote from the non Republicans. Same way they speak about the debt they should drop the UI front or at least put it on the back burner and focus on creating a party that is seeking to rebuild this country.

[Dr. FIVE]

don't have it anymore unfortunately Kev

[Kev Bar]

[QUOTE=Dr. FIVE;285803]don't have it anymore unfortunately Kev[/QUOTE

Ta.

I try to make a point of buying it when I can.

It merits it.

[Saoirse go Deo]

can people please stop using Pragmatism as a desirable attribute.

They're political parties ffs
I have to agree... it's a phrase used to cover up what is often a blatant U-turn on principals.

[Apjp]

For the day to come is a separate issue to SF the political party. Here's one to think about, lower welfare in the UK than in the Republic makes a UI more attractive. Just for pig iron, have any of the regional assemblies in the UK been able to block welfare cuts from being introduced in their regions?

Scotland maybe? They do exercise that right on college fees and have frozen local rates for small businesses.

[Apjp]

On the balance why would they want to join a state where a visit to the GP costs in the region of €50 when a visit to the GP in the UK is free? I see Shinners are also towing the line of what the church seems to tell them on the recent debate on abortion when Mc Guinness said they are opposed to abortion, pretty contrary to what the rest of the liberal establishment in Shinners are believing and telling people in the vicinity. There is ample opportunity here for Shinners to get a few votes and if they cast off told old guard (get rid of Adams and Mc Guiness and all the other old heads) stop looking at Mary Lou as if she is the next messiah and get in staff like Pearse Doherty then Shinners may even get a vote from the non Republicans. Same way they speak about the debt they should drop the UI front or at least put it on the back burner and focus on creating a party that is seeking to rebuild this country.

Fluffy as questionable as SF's motives are, they do remain outsiders as regards their actions in the south so they have a good degree more credibility than the parties who continued and continue to hand away our wealth, freedom and sovereignty. I would think that they pose a threat to the status quo if nothing else. VB's comment last night that SF could be in power with FG next time round was a bit bizarre. Their actions up North leave a lot to be desired.

However, I am wary of anyone with a clear bias against republicanism cautioning us not to vote for a so called republican party.

[bernadette]

Fluffy as questionable as SF's motives are, they do remain outsiders as regards their actions in the south so they have a good degree more credibility than the parties who continued and continue to hand away our wealth, freedom and sovereignty. I would think that they pose a threat to the status quo if nothing else. VB's comment last night that SF could be in power with FG next time round was a bit bizarre. Their actions up North leave a lot to be desired.

However, I am wary of anyone with a clear bias against republicanism cautioning us not to vote for a so called republican party.

Doesn't that depend how you define republicanism? I think almost everyone in the south considers themselves republican but that doesn't mean they support SF far from it.

Some consider SF have been one of the two main reasons we are still a divided country.

[fluffybiscuits]

Fluffy as questionable as SF's motives are, they do remain outsiders as regards their actions in the south so they have a good degree more credibility than the parties who continued and continue to hand away our wealth, freedom and sovereignty. I would think that they pose a threat to the status quo if nothing else. VB's comment last night that SF could be in power with FG next time round was a bit bizarre. Their actions up North leave a lot to be desired.

However, I am wary of anyone with a clear bias against republicanism cautioning us not to vote for a so called republican party.

SF and FG being bedfellows ? There is two hopes for that, Bob Hope and no hope. My motives for being way of Republicanism are understandable enough surely? Since coming on here people have softened my approach to SF and a lot of people are grateful for their approach on civil rights issues.

[Baron von Biffo]

can people please stop using Pragmatism as a desirable attribute.

They're political parties ffs

The alternative to pragmatic is Uncle Joe or Boyd-Barrett - Total refusal to work with others lest their political purity be sullied and thus total failure to achieve anything for the people they purport to represent.

[Dr. FIVE]

I have to agree... it's a phrase used to cover up what is often a blatant U-turn on principals.

A device to attain or keep power. Ludicrous that it has slipped in as positive attribute.
Fianna Fáil

[Apjp]

Doesn't that depend how you define republicanism? I think almost everyone in the south considers themselves republican but that doesn't mean they support SF far from it.

Some consider SF have been one of the two main reasons we are still a divided country.

That last line in terms of the south is purely nonsensical considering they have never had any political sway over national affairs aside from 1 successful anti-Lisbon campaign. I would say about 35% of people in the south are crying out for an alternative if recent referenda and election results are anything to go by, and about the same number 30% or so, don't bother voting due to the lack of an alternative. If SF were serious about taking on the EU, they would be a serious contender in the next elections, probably ending up as the second biggest party.

[Apjp]

SF and FG being bedfellows ? There is two hopes for that, Bob Hope and no hope. My motives for being way of Republicanism are understandable enough surely? Since coming on here people have softened my approach to SF and a lot of people are grateful for their approach on civil rights issues.

Why are you wary of republicanism? Do you even know what it is? And Vincent Browne made that aside about FG/SF, not me.

[Apjp]

A device to attain or keep power. Ludicrous that it has slipped in as positive attribute.
Fianna Fáil

No surprise to see former Fianna Fail voters already defending it then. Baron is on record as saying if he 'had to have one FF deputy' in his constituency.

[fluffybiscuits]

That last line in terms of the south is purely nonsensical considering they have never had any political sway over national affairs aside from 1 successful anti-Lisbon campaign. I would say about 35% of people in the south are crying out for an alternative if recent referenda and election results are anything to go by, and about the same number 30% or so, don't bother voting due to the lack of an alternative. If SF were serious about taking on the EU, they would be a serious contender in the next elections, probably ending up as the second biggest party.

They were on target to be the second biggest party but seem to have slipped up along the way. Sinn Fein could be said to be a cause of division in that they never appeared to me to cater for a Protestant working class where as the SDLP and the Alliance did however Shinners had a lot more bite and were a lot more active in the community which the SDLP and others didnt seem to do.

[Apjp]

They were on target to be the second biggest party but seem to have slipped up along the way. Sinn Fein could be said to be a cause of division in that they never appeared to me to cater for a Protestant working class where as the SDLP and the Alliance did however Shinners had a lot more bite and were a lot more active in the community which the SDLP and others didnt seem to do.

You're talking about Ulster. I am talking about Southern Ireland. It's nonsense to suggest they ever divided the vast majority of Irish people. Half of Ulster traditionally don't even see themselves as Irish ffs and not alone that, a great deal of them maintain a 17th century ideal which is possibly the most reactionary and backward 'ideology' known to man.

[fluffybiscuits]

That last line in terms of the south is purely nonsensical considering they have never had any political sway over national affairs aside from 1 successful anti-Lisbon campaign. I would say about 35% of people in the south are crying out for an alternative if recent referenda and election results are anything to go by, and about the same number 30% or so, don't bother voting due to the lack of an alternative. If SF were serious about taking on the EU, they would be a serious contender in the next elections, probably ending up as the second biggest party.

I was responding to the last poiont you were speaking about in bernadettes post :)

[fluffybiscuits]

Why are you wary of republicanism? Do you even know what it is? And Vincent Browne made that aside about FG/SF, not me.

Me being wary of Republicanism is that its too microscopic in its beliefs. It deals solely with the Irish question and that of a United Ireland. The means of it achieving these aims are what leave a bad taste in my mouth.

[bernadette]

That last line in terms of the south is purely nonsensical considering they have never had any political sway over national affairs aside from 1 successful anti-Lisbon campaign. I would say about 35% of people in the south are crying out for an alternative if recent referenda and election results are anything to go by, and about the same number 30% or so, don't bother voting due to the lack of an alternative. If SF were serious about taking on the EU, they would be a serious contender in the next elections, probably ending up as the second biggest party.

I think you're right about the number of people who want a new party to emerge and the fact that SF have not managed to grab that place despite the GFA is indicative I think that I'm right.

SF are neither liked or trusted and that when you consider the dire not to say dishonest activities of the other parties is quite an achievement. The south was and is theirs to take but they're not doing it and under their present leadership they are very unlikely to achieve major success.

[Dr. FIVE]

One thing I find interesting about the SF taking on the EU thing is even if it was plausible surely there will be certain issues around the party 'taking on' any great power for another generation at least. The political masters of this world can make life very difficult for any Irish government as we have seen but none are relying on the good will of various international bodies as much as SF when details around future independent inquiries and the like are being worked out.

[Dr. FIVE]

That is a lot of leverage against any SF government should they not do what's expected of them.

[Apjp]

I was responding to the last poiont you were speaking about in bernadettes post :)

And you ignored my point. I was talking about the South not the North. Please address this matter in terms of the south, that is the great majority of Ireland. How in the hell did SF divide the Irish when it is a very new party in most of Ireland???

[Apjp]

Me being wary of Republicanism is that its too microscopic in its beliefs. It deals solely with the Irish question and that of a United Ireland. The means of it achieving these aims are what leave a bad taste in my mouth.

That's a very non-republican way of trying to understand republicanism alright. Have you read the proclamation?

[Apjp]

I think you're right about the number of people who want a new party to emerge and the fact that SF have not managed to grab that place despite the GFA is indicative I think that I'm right.

SF are neither liked or trusted and that when you consider the dire not to say dishonest activities of the other parties is quite an achievement. The south was and is theirs to take but they're not doing it and under their present leadership they are very unlikely to achieve major success.

Now I think you have a point. There is a suspicion around SF among a good few voters, whether that suspicion is paranoia at this stage(we all know about the sindo mentality of some anti-shinners) or justified remains to be seen. My point was simply that SF have not yet been proven as another party of the system because they have yet to go inside the system, so cannot be seen as a very divisive party in the south. Fluffy though is anti-republican it would seem or else does not understand republicanism, so he seems to have judged them already. I am wary of people who only look on republicanism in terms of the conflict in the North, though I am not implying you are one of those, there are 1 or 2 like that on this site and the older parish is full of the sindo types ive already described. I always advise such people to come down off their Herald reading barstools and to take up a proclamation.

[fluffybiscuits]

And you ignored my point. I was talking about the South not the North. Please address this matter in terms of the south, that is the great majority of Ireland. How in the hell did SF divide the Irish when it is a very new party in most of Ireland???

It is not a new party in Ireland! Come off it ! It is looked upon with suspicion because of its history in the North and links to the IRA the atrocoties carried out by the IRA. The populism of Sinn Feins policies and their ideals are not in any way in furthering the interest of Ireland . The Irish question is the centre of their existence...The first thing their document mentions on a new Republic is A United Ireland!

http://www.sinnfein.ie/towards-a-new-republic



Sinn Féin is a 32-County party striving for an end to partition on the island of Ireland and the establishment of a democratic socialist republic. The achievement of a United Ireland is within our reach and unity offers the best future for all the people of Ireland. In these harsh economic times, it is also the best way forward from a financial and social perspective.

90 years after partition, as communities divided by the border become increasingly reintegrated, there is a growing pull towards reunification. As old allegiances change and people from loyalist backgrounds consider voting for a republican party because it best represents their social and economic interests, the potential for dialogue with those from the unionist community about their place in a united Ireland becomes possible.

[fluffybiscuits]

That's a very non-republican way of trying to understand republicanism alright. Have you read the proclamation?

Do I sound like a complete idiot!

[fluffybiscuits]

And I said it before....They drop Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness and Mary Loo and give the young guns a chance and then I would perhaps consider giving them a vote.

[bernadette]

And I said it before....They drop Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness and Mary Loo and give the young guns a chance and then I would perhaps consider giving them a vote.

+10

[Saoirse go Deo]

And I said it before....They drop Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness and Mary Loo and give the young guns a chance and then I would perhaps consider giving them a vote.
Her name is Mary Lou.


Anti republicans come out with this crap all the time - laundry lists of reasons why SF can't do x, y or z. You'd think by this stage they'd be fed up with being proven wrong.

There is no reason to get rid of the people you mention. And Mary Lou is hardly one of the "old guard".

[Saoirse go Deo]

Fluffy, while partition remains there cannot be working class unity. If you can't see that there is no hope.

[Shaadi]

And I said it before....They drop Gerry Adams, Martin Mc Guinness and Mary Loo and give the young guns a chance and then I would perhaps consider giving them a vote.That's fair enough, each to their own, I owe no loyalty to any party or individuals. The political ideals of an organisation are all that motivate me. But SF aren't going to change to appease anti-Republicans just to get a few votes, especially when they've been brought to near 20% by the current leadership.

PS. I like Mary Lou, she's a very sharp operator. .

[Dr. FIVE]

.

There is no reason to get rid of the people you mention.

They will remain hugely toxic to massive part of country. That is fact not opinion.
If SF is fed up of 'anti-republicans' making an issue of the past they have to start shedding the baggage because the perception isn't going away. A study done last year asked on a scale of 1-10 how likely people were to vote SF. 52% went with the lowest likeliness of one, FF were less toxic and the ballot bore that out.

[Shaadi]

Fluffy, while partition remains there cannot be working class unity. If you can't see that there is no hope.Does anyone really think the working class are interested in unity when 2/3rds of them think they're middle class?

They won't wake up until we get to the Greece stage.

[Apjp]

It is not a new party in Ireland! Come off it ! It is looked upon with suspicion because of its history in the North and links to the IRA the atrocoties carried out by the IRA. The populism of Sinn Feins policies and their ideals are not in any way in furthering the interest of Ireland . The Irish question is the centre of their existence...The first thing their document mentions on a new Republic is A United Ireland!

http://www.sinnfein.ie/towards-a-new-republic

So what if they want a united Ireland? You prefer the ideology of Ian Paisley and his fore bearers? You seem to be against that concept as well as republicanism. The SWP are a shower of useless saps, criticizing the very party they should be looking to find some common ground with in the general public interest of collapsing this government and stirring up some well needed anarchy.

The shame of acquiescing is something the IRA at the time, unlike ourselves at present, seemed incapable of. You're very judgmental on something you seem to know little about as regards republicanism. It isn't just about a united Ireland. Maybe the SWP want us to think it is. Frank Ryan was this nation's biggest loss, a Multilingual, internationalist Irishman but very much a republican with leftwing sympathies. He must be rolling in his grave with the pathetic excuse for an Irish left wing party we have today in the ULA.

[Apjp]

Do I sound like a complete idiot!

Increasingly, you do sound as though you don't know what republicanism is.

[Apjp]

Her name is Mary Lou.


Anti republicans come out with this crap all the time - laundry lists of reasons why SF can't do x, y or z. You'd think by this stage they'd be fed up with being proven wrong.

There is no reason to get rid of the people you mention. And Mary Lou is hardly one of the "old guard".

I voted for an independent republican instead of Gerry Adams in the last election. I wasn't sure Gerry was any different-I kept my 'emotional intelligence' in check and made the decision based on the here and now. Mind you I see where you are coming from-it is a bit rich of people in the SWP to lecture others on organisation and electoral appeal.

[bernadette]

Do I sound like a complete idiot!

No but it does sound as though you are trying.

[Apjp]

Does anyone really think the working class are interested in unity when 2/3rds of them think they're middle class?

They won't wake up until we get to the Greece stage.

You're wrong there pal. The austerity needed here to wake everyone up will have to put Greece in the ha'penny place

[Shaadi]

You're wrong there pal. The austerity needed here to wake everyone up will have to put Greece in the ha'penny placeThere's some mad sh1t ahead for us. My publicly employed BMW driving neighbours will kill before they'll give up that lifestyle and give it up they'll eventually have to do unless we default. The pressure will grow and grow and something will give.

[Saoirse go Deo]

They will remain hugely toxic to massive part of country. That is fact not opinion.
If SF is fed up of 'anti-republicans' making an issue of the past they have to start shedding the baggage because the perception isn't going away. A study done last year asked on a scale of 1-10 how likely people were to vote SF. 52% went with the lowest likeliness of one, FF were less toxic and the ballot bore that out.

You're picking me up wrong, my issue is with people, especially in the media, laying down certain things which SF "must do" to succeed - meet Windsor, drop Gerry, apologize for xyz, it's a never ending list. When one is done they come up with another - these people will never support SF. Laying down conditions is merely a way for them to intellectualize their hate and appear reasonable.

SF is full of ex IRA heads, after MMG is gone, who next? Should they all be purged?

SF has vastly increased in popularity under the current leadership. They are doing a good job (overall) imo. If Gerry (who topped the poll remember) was gone they would bring up some other IRA boogeyman.

[fluffybiscuits]

Does anyone really think the working class are interested in unity when 2/3rds of them think they're middle class?

They won't wake up until we get to the Greece stage.


+1

There is no such thing as the middle class. This idea that there is somehow some divide between the working class and bourgoise that accommodates them is a fallacy and a strong one at that. Its when our backs are to the walls when we will come out fighting...


So what if they want a united Ireland? You prefer the ideology of Ian Paisley and his fore bearers? You seem to be against that concept as well as republicanism. The SWP are a shower of useless saps, criticizing the very party they should be looking to find some common ground with in the general public interest of collapsing this government and stirring up some well needed anarchy.

The shame of acquiescing is something the IRA at the time, unlike ourselves at present, seemed incapable of. You're very judgmental on something you seem to know little about as regards republicanism. It isn't just about a united Ireland. Maybe the SWP want us to think it is. Frank Ryan was this nation's biggest loss, a Multilingual, internationalist Irishman but very much a republican with leftwing sympathies. He must be rolling in his grave with the pathetic excuse for an Irish left wing party we have today in the ULA.

A gay man following the teachings of Ian Paisley, if I end up following his logic I would be half way to hell with a pitch fork up my hole for company. We need a united Europe , a united world but a united Europe to over throw the current status quo, what is wrong with that? Republicanism is one evolution of the current idea and the idea of a workers republic united in Europe is another evolution of Republicanism although as seperate ideas the opposite could be the case Im sure. Help me understand then Apjp what is Republicanism to you? Perhaps Im squaring it in terms that are too narrow and need broader parameters, educate me as to what you believe it is. You are as frustrated as I, we should be united in our efforts to be united in struggle.


No but it does sound as though you are trying.


I probably come across as being a blabbering loon!

[fluffybiscuits]

They will remain hugely toxic to massive part of country. That is fact not opinion.
If SF is fed up of 'anti-republicans' making an issue of the past they have to start shedding the baggage because the perception isn't going away. A study done last year asked on a scale of 1-10 how likely people were to vote SF. 52% went with the lowest likeliness of one, FF were less toxic and the ballot bore that out.

Im not anti Shinners completely, I think they could do with an evolution as I do the ULA and every other party in the Dail...

[Shaadi]

You're picking me up wrong, my issue is with people, especially in the media, laying down certain things which SF "must do" to succeed - meet Windsor, drop Gerry, apologize for xyz, it's a never ending list. When one is done they come up with another - these people will never support SF. Laying down conditions is merely a way for them to intellectualize their hate and appear reasonable.

SF is full of ex IRA heads, after MMG is gone, who next? Should they all be purged?

SF has vastly increased in popularity under the current leadership. They are doing a good job (overall) imo. If Gerry (who topped the poll remember) was gone they would bring up some other IRA boogeyman.Exactly, they should stick to their guns ( ha, ha ). They've hit 20% with the two big IRA heads as leaders, if people don't like it, tough!. 20% is enough to do some serious damage to the electoral status quo

[Apjp]

+1

There is no such thing as the middle class. This idea that there is somehow some divide between the working class and bourgoise that accommodates them is a fallacy and a strong one at that. Its when our backs are to the walls when we will come out fighting...



A gay man following the teachings of Ian Paisley, if I end up following his logic I would be half way to hell with a pitch fork up my hole for company. We need a united Europe , a united world but a united Europe to over throw the current status quo, what is wrong with that? Republicanism is one evolution of the current idea and the idea of a workers republic united in Europe is another evolution of Republicanism although as seperate ideas the opposite could be the case Im sure. Help me understand then Apjp what is Republicanism to you? Perhaps Im squaring it in terms that are too narrow and need broader parameters, educate me as to what you believe it is. You are as frustrated as I, we should be united in our efforts to be united in struggle.




I probably come across as being a blabbering loon!


The last line is increasingly true. Educate yourself, stop asking others to do it for you. And I'm grand thanks as I'm not interested in struggling to change from one union to another. With history on my side on this one, I think we know by now that Ireland does not do well out of political unions. I've said this 20 times today. Please stop trying to get me to argue on your terms and somehow recognise your political fantasy as a good thing for Ireland.

[Apjp]

Exactly, they should stick to their guns ( ha, ha ). They've hit 20% with the two big IRA heads as leaders, if people don't like it, tough!. 20% is enough to do some serious damage to the electoral status quo

A hung dail is a very real possibility next time out. would do some serious long term damage and force official Ireland to finally unite against the rest of us. Might also offer smaller parties a chance to have a voice in a dail not overly dominated by two arrogant parties.

[Apjp]

I was thinking, shouldnt the Ceann Comharile be an elected citizen, who is not in a political party, or at least elected? Might at least limit the bias of such a political judge. It makes such a farce of the opposition when they cannot even question government without being ridiculed. Also, it'd stop the government shouting them down and one thing that could be done is that a minister/taoiseach could be instructed to answer a question directly rather than deflect from it.

[fluffybiscuits]

The last line is increasingly true. Educate yourself, stop asking others to do it for you. And I'm grand thanks as I'm not interested in struggling to change from one union to another. With history on my side on this one, I think we know by now that Ireland does not do well out of political unions. I've said this 20 times today. Please stop trying to get me to argue on your terms and somehow recognise your political fantasy as a good thing for Ireland.

Im asking as my interpretation of things like Republicanism seems tobe different to yours! Im not asking you to argue on my terms but trying to show we have some common ground!

[Apjp]

Im asking as my interpretation of things like Republicanism seems tobe different to yours! Im not asking you to argue on my terms but trying to show we have some common ground!

We do not have common ground. You are forever changing your mind on everything. Should we be a sovereign nation or not? Just answer that-simple yes or no. No long winded speeches please on political unions.

[fluffybiscuits]

We do not have common ground. You are forever changing your mind on everything. Should we be a sovereign nation or not? Just answer that-simple yes or no. No long winded speeches please on political unions.

Yes

To get to a political union it has to happen...

[Sidewinder]

A hung dail is a very real possibility next time out. would do some serious long term damage and force official Ireland to finally unite against the rest of us. Might also offer smaller parties a chance to have a voice in a dail not overly dominated by two arrogant parties.

In the (very) long run it might be the best result of the next election if the result forces FF/G/L into a coalition together. A nice gombeen troika.

Sure they'd do massive damage for a few years but at least it would crystallise the reality that all three parties are useless parasite reactionary peasant trough-snouters in the concrete skulls of the Irish electorate.

[fluffybiscuits]

In the (very) long run it might be the best result of the next election if the result forces FF/G/L into a coalition together. A nice gombeen troika.

Sure they'd do massive damage for a few years but at least it would crystallise the reality that all three parties are useless parasite reactionary peasant trough-snouters in the concrete skulls of the Irish electorate.

An SF/ULA combination with the support of a few independents tickling anyones fancy? ;)

[Apjp]

Yes

To get to a political union it has to happen...

Freedom is slavery. 2 and 2 is 5. You are using political language here. Ireland should be sovereign to get a must needed political union. Your very shady in your posts. You seem to believe in nothing and be very flexible/impressionable.

[Apjp]

In the (very) long run it might be the best result of the next election if the result forces FF/G/L into a coalition together. A nice gombeen troika.

Sure they'd do massive damage for a few years but at least it would crystallise the reality that all three parties are useless parasite reactionary peasant trough-snouters in the concrete skulls of the Irish electorate.

My mind exactly. God forbid though that Fluffy ever gets in. Going on one of his last posts, 'yes we need to be sovereign to get into a political union' He will declare a republic before handing over our sovereignty to neighbouring states in the name of a united Ingsoc/World state.

[fluffybiscuits]

Freedom is slavery. 2 and 2 is 5. You are using political language here. Ireland should be sovereign to get a must needed political union. Your very shady in your posts. You seem to believe in nothing and be very flexible/impressionable.

I want a United Europe through social means . That is the basis. I see Republicanism being a step on the way and not the last stop . Im a uptopian to boot and like to look at all ideas to see how they fit in and debate them. Thats being flexible , its not being impressionable. I dont see why we should be completely rigid in our thinking but we should also not be flaky...

I only told someone the other day they believe in nothing they will believe in everything..

[Sidewinder]

An SF/ULA combination with the support of a few independents tickling anyones fancy? ;)

I'd be fairly confident that we'll see the ULA propping up a FG/FF government long before we'd ever see them agreeing to be in a coalition involving SF.

[disability student]

I'd be fairly confident that we'll see the ULA propping up a FG/FF government long before we'd ever see them agreeing to be in a coalition involving SF.

+100 as so much infightening in ULA and many self styled politicans such as Higgins/Boyd Barrett out for themselves. ULA have shot themselves in the foot as it's plain clear to us that they are pussyfooting with no impact at all.:rolleyes:

ULA is gone as far as i'm concerned.

[fluffybiscuits]

I'd be fairly confident that we'll see the ULA propping up a FG/FF government long before we'd ever see them agreeing to be in a coalition involving SF.


[/B]
+100 as so much infightening in ULA and many self styled politicans such as Higgins/Boyd Barrett out for themselves. ULA have shot themselves in the foot as it's plain clear to us that they are pussyfooting with no impact at all.:rolleyes:

ULA is gone as far as i'm concerned.


If this were to happen this would potentially alienate a whole sector of the electorate who would have voted for the ULA. They know that it would be tantamount to political suicide . There is so much of the ULA that is lacking direction from all the infighting and lack of leadership and split through political ideaology that we dont know what direction we are heading. Im willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of the ULA but those in Sinn Fein seem unwilling to crticise themselves therefore making any external criticism from parties outside of the party ranks. We are all here wanting the same thing, Im open to a thread being started by someone else asking do we want a ULA govt.

[disability student]

If this were to happen this would potentially alienate a whole sector of the electorate who would have voted for the ULA. They know that it would be tantamount to political suicide . There is so much of the ULA that is lacking direction from all the infighting and lack of leadership and split through political ideaology that we dont know what direction we are heading. Im willing to acknowledge the shortcomings of the ULA but those in Sinn Fein seem unwilling to crticise themselves therefore making any external criticism from parties outside of the party ranks. We are all here wanting the same thing, Im open to a thread being started by someone else asking do we want a ULA govt.

If ULA want to do well to capture the votes which they have the potential. Best would be to disconnect from SP, SWP and other self seeking promoters such as Barrett, Higgins & go it alone.

SF is the party to lead forward at the mo as other parties are bereft & devoid of ideas.What's radically required is a brand new party (not Mc Dowell as i hear he's considering it) to take root and capture FG/FF/Lab votes in the coming GE.

Next year is the local elections.;)

[fluffybiscuits]

If ULA want to do well to capture the votes which they have the potential. Best would be to disconnect from SP, SWP and other self seeking promoters such as Barrett, Higgins & go it alone.

SF is the party to lead forward at the mo as other parties are bereft & devoid of ideas.What's radically required is a brand new party (not Mc Dowell as i hear he's considering it) to take root and capture FG/FF/Lab votes in the coming GE.

Next year is the local elections.;)

+1

I think between all the parties they are all tainted and there is too much baggage attached!

[Sidewinder]

If this were to happen this would potentially alienate a whole sector of the electorate who would have voted for the ULA. They know that it would be tantamount to political suicide .

Two words: Democratic Left. Where are they now? I can confidently predict the pseudo-radicals of the ULA will walk down the same old tired well-worn track that the Stickies wore into the landscape decades ago. And why? Cos they are frauds.

And no, we don't want the same things, as a couple of threads today have clearly demonstrated. The ULA and their fellow-travellers are a bunch of crypto-unionist socialist imperialists, desperate to dismantle any remaining pretence at a sovereign Irish state and have Ireland run by foreign powers. Again.

I might have my own issues with SF but at least most Shinners actually believe in an Irish state. The ULA don't.

[bernadette]

Two words: Democratic Left. Where are they now? I can confidently predict the pseudo-radicals of the ULA will walk down the same old tired well-worn track that the Stickies wore into the landscape decades ago. And why? Cos they are frauds.

And no, we don't want the same things, as a couple of threads today have clearly demonstrated. The ULA and their fellow-travellers are a bunch of crypto-unionist socialist imperialists, desperate to dismantle any remaining pretence at a sovereign Irish state and have Ireland run by foreign powers. Again.

I might have my own issues with SF but at least most Shinners actually believe in an Irish state. The ULA don't.


Do they? I believe they hijacked the peace in the late sixties and proceeded to polarise opinion in a way that has guaranteed the union for at least another generation. And what is the result of all the murder and mayhem? Their leader is a TD here and their deputy leader is joint leader of Stormont council in the north.

A roaring success they are not.

[Kev Bar]

Two words: Democratic Left. Where are they now? I can confidently predict the pseudo-radicals of the ULA will walk down the same old tired well-worn track that the Stickies wore into the landscape decades ago. And why? Cos they are frauds.

And no, we don't want the same things, as a couple of threads today have clearly demonstrated. The ULA and their fellow-travellers are a bunch of crypto-unionist socialist imperialists, desperate to dismantle any remaining pretence at a sovereign Irish state and have Ireland run by foreign powers. Again.

I might have my own issues with SF but at least most Shinners actually believe in an Irish state. The ULA don't.


Indeed. And as long as they are part of it, it can be any variant on the same shabby corrupt edifice we have witnessed for donkey's years.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Actually I'd bypass Sinn Fein and settle for an IRA government. At least the criminal stuff would be out in the open and we wouldn't have to waste time in our lives uncovering liars like the current lot of 'respectable' representatives:)

[bernadette]

Actually I'd bypass Sinn Fein and settle for an IRA government. At least the criminal stuff would be out in the open and we wouldn't have to waste time in our lives uncovering liars like the current lot of 'respectable' representatives:)


Aaand when they said "We know where you live" We'd know they meant it! No thanks.

[Ogiol]

[/B]

Do they? I believe they hijacked the peace in the late sixties and proceeded to polarise opinion in a way that has guaranteed the union for at least another generation. And what is the result of all the murder and mayhem? Their leader is a TD here and their deputy leader is joint leader of Stormont council in the north.

A roaring success they are not.

Jaysus, there's no worse blind person that one that doesnt want to see.

Hows about a short comparison of the situation of the catholic minority before 1970 to what that situation is now? No, no difference what so ever, is there?:eek:

Hows about a mini gaelic revival, through the progress of the GAA, irish language amongst other things. You think any of these things would have been possible without SF ??

[bernadette]

Jaysus, there's no worse blind person that one that doesnt want to see.

Hows about a short comparison of the situation of the catholic minority before 1970 to what that situation is now? No, no difference what so ever, is there?:eek:

Hows about a mini gaelic revival, through the progress of the GAA, irish language amongst other things. You think any of these things would have been possible without SF ??

How about all those were ready to go by 1972? All won by the equal rights movement and sfa to do with PIRA.

The Gaelic revival has been more hindered than helped by PIRA or the GAA. The GAAs unforgivable tendency to name stadia after dead murderers is guaranteed to alienate the majority of people.

The difference is SF were told the facts of life by the Brits and Irish governments. Only now are the people being given the opportunity to grow and stretch into themselves. It will take years for old scars to heal and be forgiven, that's the legacy of PIRA.:mad:

[Ogiol]

How about all those were ready to go by 1972? All won by the equal rights movement and sfa to do with PIRA.

The Gaelic revival has been more hindered than helped by PIRA or the GAA. The GAAs unforgivable tendency to name stadia after dead murderers is guaranteed to alienate the majority of people.

The difference is SF were told the facts of life by the Brits and Irish governments. Only now are the people being given the opportunity to grow and stretch into themselves. It will take years for old scars to heal and be forgiven, that's the legacy of PIRA.:mad:

So northern catholics were just supposed to sit back while the orangies firebombed their houses, tried to carry out pogroms and that on top of the socioeconomic violence they practiced. Stormont was taken down by the catholic resistance to the orange aparthite state.

So the GAA name stadia after dead murderers. Jaysus, youd think that a subjugated and colonised people had no right whatsoever to throw off the chains of oppression! No, wait lets we shouldve just voted them out back then, that would've the civilised thing to do:rolleyes:

[bernadette]

So northern catholics were just supposed to sit back while the orangies firebombed their houses, tried to carry out pogroms and that on top of the socioeconomic violence they practiced. Stormont was taken down by the catholic resistance to the orange aparthite state.

So the GAA name stadia after dead murderers. Jaysus, youd think that a subjugated and colonised people had no right whatsoever to throw off the chains of oppression! No, wait lets we shouldve just voted them out back then, that would've the civilised thing to do:rolleyes:

Peaceful protest was working, most of the gains were already agreed before some nutters found a way to indulge their sadistic tendencies.

Once the Brit government took control the end of loyalist gang rule was in sight but that didn't suit the leaders of the thug gangs.

Colonised people, Gerry Adams snr could have taken his family across the border or anywhere else at any time. He didn't because dole in the UK paid better back then and he liked his life. King of his own little dung hill.

[Ogiol]

Peaceful protest was working, most of the gains were already agreed before some nutters found a way to indulge their sadistic tendencies.

Once the Brit government took control the end of loyalist gang rule was in sight but that didn't suit the leaders of the thug gangs.

Colonised people, Gerry Adams snr could have taken his family across the border or anywhere else at any time. He didn't because dole in the UK paid better back then and he liked his life. King of his own little dung hill.

Peaceful protest was working you say? well, to an extent yes, but there tends to be a bit of urgency when your whole community is being burned out by maurading loyalist gangs.

It would be naif to think that the brits would bring the loyalist gangs under the thumb when the brits have such a rich and ancient history of promoting and funding violent groups all around the world. Divide and conquer was and is their policy.

Why should gerry adams senior or otherwise HAVE to move away from the place they were born, from their community? It was their community and somepeople had to stand up and protect it. Would you rather that all the catholic irish people just up and left the 6 counties to the orangies??

[5intheface]

How about all those were ready to go by 1972? All won by the equal rights movement and sfa to do with PIRA.

The Gaelic revival has been more hindered than helped by PIRA or the GAA. The GAAs unforgivable tendency to name stadia after dead murderers is guaranteed to alienate the majority of people.

The difference is SF were told the facts of life by the Brits and Irish governments. Only now are the people being given the opportunity to grow and stretch into themselves. It will take years for old scars to heal and be forgiven, that's the legacy of PIRA.:mad:


Peaceful protest was working, most of the gains were already agreed before some nutters found a way to indulge their sadistic tendencies.

Once the Brit government took control the end of loyalist gang rule was in sight but that didn't suit the leaders of the thug gangs.

Colonised people, Gerry Adams snr could have taken his family across the border or anywhere else at any time. He didn't because dole in the UK paid better back then and he liked his life. King of his own little dung hill.

Bernadette, your lack of knowledge on matters northern is phenomenal. What's worse is that no matter what is said to you, you revert to the sae position, blame everything on the provos and SF. You don't seem to have caught on to the fact that what the provos were and what SF is now are two wildly different things. You, by the strength of your posts, are the absolute epitome of the type of person who swallows the utterly skewed version of history that the media, on the whole, serves up.

To actually claim that The Civil Rights movement (I presume you mean) gained so much is simply untrue. They got beaten off the streets. To characterize what happened as nutters fulfilling some blood lust is the laziest half-assed attempt at understanding what happened. Are you aware of what the bspecials/UDR were up to at the time? The provos didn't cause that. They didn't cause 50 years of vote-rigging, discrimination and pogroms. No but don't worry about the truth, get stuck into the ra like RTE and the daily trash tell you.

For your information, the Loyalist organisations were established, armed, run and supplied with information from the British State from day 1 so there never was any case for them getting control.

I have a great problem with Adams but the dole comment is the sort of crap Rab from Rathcoole would phone Stephen Nolan to rant.

Also, I don't know of any GAA stadia named after murderers unless you consider Pearse or Connolly murderers? I could be wrong.

One hurling club in Ireland is named after someone from the last phase of the conflict and that's Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven. Lynch was INLA and died on hunger strike. He was the captain of the first Derry hurling team to win an All Ireland title so it's hardly surprising that the club is named for him.

Again, it's usually Loyalists bigots that bring this up.

Other than that, the only other thing I can think of is a South Derry cup named after Francis Hughes/Tom McElwee. Again both hunger strikers and to be honest, if you had grown up in South Derry in the 70s and been subject to the behaviour of state forces, you'd have been very glad to have had Hughes who put manners on the bastards and till the day I die I'll have no problem saying that to anyone.

And one last thing bernadette, if you think the tramps that led one 26c government after another were a positive force in any respect then you are insulting yourself more than those of us who've been hearing that crap all our lives.

It's funny, the reason you seem to hate SF is because of the violence of the Provos and yet I wouldn't vote for them now but did through the 80s and 90s.

If you are big enough to stop for a second, drop the blinkers and actually think about one thing, let it be this. Generalisations about the PIRA are pointless, it was a different animal in 71 from what existed in 76 or 83 or 93. It was also a much different thing in South Armagh, East Tyrone from what existed in the cities. One size does not fit all.

[riposte]

Peaceful protest was working, most of the gains were already agreed before some nutters found a way to indulge their sadistic tendencies.

Once the Brit government took control the end of loyalist gang rule was in sight but that didn't suit the leaders of the thug gangs.

Colonised people, Gerry Adams snr could have taken his family across the border or anywhere else at any time. He didn't because dole in the UK paid better back then and he liked his life. King of his own little dung hill.

You can get treatment for that kind of psychological illness bernadette.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

[bernadette]

Peaceful protest was working you say? well, to an extent yes, but there tends to be a bit of urgency when your whole community is being burned out by maurading loyalist gangs.

It would be naif to think that the brits would bring the loyalist gangs under the thumb when the brits have such a rich and ancient history of promoting and funding violent groups all around the world. Divide and conquer was and is their policy.

Why should gerry adams senior or otherwise HAVE to move away from the place they were born, from their community? It was their community and somepeople had to stand up and protect it. Would you rather that all the catholic irish people just up and left the 6 counties to the orangies??

I happen to think there are a lot of people in Gerry Adams seniors community who would have been happy to see the back of him. For a long time some, not all, but some so called republicans used the sectarian nature of the north to on the one hand claim victimhood and on the other abuse the community they lived in.

When you say why should? the answer is: why not? The north wasn't going anywhere but moving might, almost certainly would, have improved the life styles and opportunities of the families.

[bernadette]

You can get treatment for that kind of psychological illness bernadette.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

What?

[5intheface]

I happen to think there are a lot of people in Gerry Adams seniors community who would have been happy to see the back of him.

That would have been expressed as the biggest majority in Westminster General election? :confused:

[riposte]

What?



People are OK; thus each person has validity, importance, equality of respect.[2]
Everyone (with only few exceptions, such as the severely brain-damaged) has the capacity to think.[2]
People decide their story and destiny, therefore these decisions can be changed.[2]

Freedom from historical maladaptations embedded in the childhood script is required in order to become free of inappropriate, inauthentic and displaced emotions which are not a fair and honest reflection of here-and-now life.

>>>>>>

[bernadette]

That would have been expressed as the biggest majority in Westminster General election? :confused:


Vote early, vote often is the answer to that.

[5intheface]

Vote early, vote often is the answer to that.

That's bull5hit. Plain and simple and more evidence that you'll accept anything without question.

Vote early and vote often was all the rage in the 70s. SF didn't stand in elections until the early 80s.

And btw, the only parties ever found guilty of election malpractice were the SDLP and the UUP. (Financial irregularities)

[bernadette]

>>>>>>


Quote:
People are OK; thus each person has validity, importance, equality of respect.[2]
Everyone (with only few exceptions, such as the severely brain-damaged) has the capacity to think.[2]
People decide their story and destiny, therefore these decisions can be changed.[2]

Freedom from historical maladaptations embedded in the childhood script is required in order to become free of inappropriate, inauthentic and displaced emotions which are not a fair and honest reflection of here-and-now life

Very interesting. I think it applies far more to you more than it does to me,

[riposte]

That's bull5hit. Plain and simple and more evidence that you'll accept anything without question.

Vote early and vote often was all the rage in the 70s. SF didn't stand in elections until the early 80s.

And btw, the only parties ever found guilty of election malpractice were the SDLP and the UUP. (Financial irregularities)

You left out Fianna Fail.


as dramatic as the events of February 18, 1982 when Charles Haughey's election agent, Pat O'Connor, was sensationally charged with attempting to vote at two polling stations in the tight Dublin North constituency. By lunchtime on polling day, the damaging news was splashed across the front of the Evening Herald

[bernadette]

That's bull5hit. Plain and simple and more evidence that you'll accept anything without question.

Vote early and vote often was all the rage in the 70s. SF didn't stand in elections until the early 80s.

And btw, the only parties ever found guilty of election malpractice were the SDLP and the UUP. (Financial irregularities)

I question everything particularly the support for someone buried draped in the Irish flag and later condemned by his own family as a child abuser.

What that says is that all those who spoke out against Gerry Adams snr are far more likely to have been right than those who draped him in the flag.

its also true that anyone who would see his family in dire straights so he could sit at home or elsewhere moaning about the nasty Brits is lacking something in his commitment to his family.

[5intheface]

You left out Fianna Fail.

Sorry :o plead guilty to partitionist comment.

[5intheface]

I question everything particularly the support for someone buried draped in the Irish flag and later condemned by his own family as a child abuser.

What that says is that all those who spoke out against Gerry Adams snr are far more likely to have been right than those who draped him in the flag.

its also true that anyone who would see his family in dire straights so he could sit at home or elsewhere moaning about the nasty Brits is lacking something in his commitment to his family.

No you don't question everything, that's abundantly clear, you're flailing in to corners looking for ammo and the best you can manage is allegations against Adams' father and then you second guess what an abuse victim might have thought! The last paragraph isn't even in English. I can't abide Adams and if he acted wrongly with regards to his niece then he deserves the same treatment as anyone else in the same situation. Using it simply as a stick with which to beat the entire history of the republican movement is a tiny bit sick.

Gerry Adams and his family's secrets are hardly the be all and end all of the entire troubles. Did you even read my first post this evening or was it just easier to have a wild stab at various tangents?

[Ogiol]

I reckon you're gonna be on the wrong side of more wild tangent stabbing 5 ;)

[5intheface]

I reckon you're gonna be on the wrong side of more wild tangent stabbing 5 ;)

And there's supposed to be a ceasefire! :eek:

[bernadette]

No you don't question everything, that's abundantly clear, you're flailing in to corners looking for ammo and the best you can manage is allegations against Adams' father and then you second guess what an abuse victim might have thought! The last paragraph isn't even in English. I can't abide Adams and if he acted wrongly with regards to his niece then he deserves the same treatment as anyone else in the same situation. Using it simply as a stick with which to beat the entire history of the republican movement is a tiny bit sick.

Gerry Adams and his family's secrets are hardly the be all and end all of the entire troubles. Did you even read my first post this evening or was it just easier to have a wild stab at various tangents?

Oh no you don't! That is not what I've been doing. I'm a republican and that is the reason I condemn the likes of Adams. He and the rest of PIRASF declared that no one could report crimes to the police including sex crimes, that's why I mention him. One SF member but look what lies beneath.

In addition I mention that family because that is my generation My own father went through periods of unemployment. I happen to know what unemployment payment and family allowance was in those days. Can't be sure of theirs of course except to know that it would have been much more than my family got. More children you see,..

[bernadette]

I reckon you're gonna be on the wrong side of more wild tangent stabbing 5 ;)

Couldn't be more wrong. I've learned some lessons: I know a gang when I see it.

[Shaadi]

Couldn't be more wrong. I've learned some lessons: I know a gang when I see it.Don't get the impression that I'm ganging up on you, I'm just curious as to how you vote. One minute you seem all love and peace Social Democrat the next minute you're Norman Tebbit with your on your bike comments.

[5intheface]

Oh no you don't! That is not what I've been doing. I'm a republican and that is the reason I condemn the likes of Adams. He and the rest of PIRASF declared that no one could report crimes to the police including sex crimes, that's why I mention him. One SF member but look what lies beneath.

In addition I mention that family because that is my generation My own father went through periods of unemployment. I happen to know what unemployment payment and family allowance was in those days. Can't be sure of theirs of course except to know that it would have been much more than my family got. More children you see,..

Oh yes I do and I will continue to do so whilst you continue to drag up incidents neither you or I have have any knowledge of save what we read in the papers and use it to create a false impression of an entire movement.

I know of another incident where someone was being abused whilst his parents were doing IRA things let's call them. The victim said nothing for near on 20 years and when finally he did, local provos offered to have it sorted. He refused and took the thing to court so that everyone would know what he had done and most importantly to him, that the abuser might admit his crimes. He was right to do so and I fully supported him, more than some in his family did but I didn't suddenly think, "No hang on, the Unionist government was right to gerrymander and discriminate and the Brits were also right to run the Loyalist death squads"

I'm still no wiser about this dole fixation. I was unemployed myself, so were the vast majority of people I know. Dole was never enough to allow a family to live comfortably and that I won't even debate. Unless the recipient was doing the double or withholding it from the rest of his family. I really don't get your point unless it's a reference to some alleged matter to do with the Adams family's personal finances. If you have a sourced knowledge of their profit and loss accounts for 1970-94 by all means let us know.

But this is still bogged down in allegations against Gerry Adams' father and deliberately avoiding explaining any real and honest motive for your vitriol.

[5intheface]

Couldn't be more wrong. I've learned some lessons: I know a gang when I see it.

Some anonymous posters (who in all likelihood know nothing about each other) agreeing to disagree with you does not make a gang and claiming it does is a spineless way to avoid proper discussion.

[riposte]

Oh yes I do and I will continue to do so whilst you continue to drag up incidents neither you or I have have any knowledge of save what we read in the papers and use it to create a false impression of an entire movement.

I know of another incident where someone was being abused whilst his parents were doing IRA things let's call them. The victim said nothing for near on 20 years and when finally he did, local provos offered to have it sorted. He refused and took the thing to court so that everyone would know what he had done and most importantly to him, that the abuser might admit his crimes. He was right to do so and I fully supported him, more than some in his family did but I didn't suddenly think, "No hang on, the Unionist government was right to gerrymander and discriminate and the Brits were also right to run the Loyalist death squads"

I'm still no wiser about this dole fixation. I was unemployed myself, so were the vast majority of people I know. Dole was never enough to allow a family to live comfortably and that I won't even debate. Unless the recipient was doing the double or withholding it from the rest of his family. I really don't get your point unless it's a reference to some alleged matter to do with the Adams family's personal finances. If you have a sourced knowledge of their profit and loss accounts for 1970-94 by all means let us know.

But this is still bogged down in allegations against Gerry Adams' father and deliberately avoiding explaining any real and honest motive for your vitriol.

What's the point 5intheface ? ......... there's no talking to some people.

[bernadette]

Don't get the impression that I'm ganging up on you, I'm just curious as to how you vote. One minute you seem all love and peace Social Democrat the next minute you're Norman Tebbit with your on your bike comments.

I've always been the same: a republican who thinks SF have delayed a UI by decades. A few have become rich and some have indulged their lust for violence and had carte blanche to do so since the Brits didn't care about republican ghettoes

[5intheface]

I've always been the same: a republican who thinks SF have delayed a UI by decades. A few have become rich and some have indulged their lust for violence and had carte blanche to do so since the Brits didn't care about republican ghettoes

Yes because if hadn't been for SF, Paisley wouldn't have been whipping the bible belt from the 1950s, Gusty Spence and his mates wouldn't have been planting bombs in black-ops and killing the first Policeman and soldier of the troubles. Craig and Tyrie would have been tripping over themselves to have street signs put up in Irish.

You have obviously the same ****-eyed knowledge of Loyalism/Unionism as you have of Republicans.

And I think you'll find The Brits don't care about any ghettos. That's the great lie at the heart of Unionism.

[Shaadi]

I've always been the same: a republican who thinks SF have delayed a UI by decades. A few have become rich and some have indulged their lust for violence and had carte blanche to do so since the Brits didn't care about republican ghettoesYou could be right and you could be wrong, history isn't black and white. I get it that you're violently (metaphorically ) opposed to SF, so in what political parties did you find republicans that were acceptable enough for you to vote for them?

[bernadette]

Yes because if hadn't been for SF, Paisley wouldn't have been whipping the bible belt from the 1950s, Gusty Spence and his mates wouldn't have been planting bombs in black-ops and killing the first Policeman and soldier of the troubles. Craig and Tyrie would have been tripping over themselves to have street signs put up in Irish.

You have obviously the same ****-eyed knowledge of Loyalism/Unionism as you have of Republicans.

And I think you'll find The Brits don't care about any ghettos. That's the great lie at the heart of Unionism.

Will you stop. I said from 1972. I don't doubt the loyalists were every bit as bad as some republicans but it doesn't alter the fact that its unionist votes republicans have to win and murdering people is not a vote winner.

[Ogiol]

I've always been the same: a republican who thinks SF have delayed a UI by decades. A few have become rich and some have indulged their lust for violence and had carte blanche to do so since the Brits didn't care about republican ghettoes

The unionists have always been staunch, and they will never vote for a UI as long as they are in a majority. Demographics, though, is how it will unfortunately happen.
And to be honest, I dont want a UI in name only, with an overarching anglo-american culture. That would be a waste of time. SF have done a lot of good, and to say that from 1972 onward was just psycopathic violence is just , well, psycopathic, and willlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllddd ignorant.

[bernadette]

You could be right and you could be wrong, history isn't black and white. I get it that you're violently (metaphorically ) opposed to SF, so in what political parties did you find republicans that were acceptable enough for you to vote for them?

Good question! and do you know since the betrayal by FF I don't think there is one. We need a new party in Ireland that or SF need a root and branch clear out, or maybe the SDLP could come south.

[5intheface]

Will you stop. I said from 1972. I don't doubt the loyalists were every bit as bad as some republicans but it doesn't alter the fact that its unionist votes republicans have to win and murdering people is not a vote winner.

Stop? On a discussion board? :D

'And the Loyalists were every bit as bad' the same old same old addendum to prove how impartial you really are.

So we begin our history in 1972 to suit your argument then, anything else you'd like me to conveniently forget in the same manner as you ignore the great number of points I made to you earlier re. GAA, Brits, Irish government etc?

Just for fun could you explain why a Unionist, no matter what anyone does to please or offend them, would ever possibly vote for a united Ireland?

They would kinda stop being a Unionist the second they considered it.

[bernadette]

The unionists have always been staunch, and they will never vote for a UI as long as they are in a majority. Demographics, though, is how it will unfortunately happen.
And to be honest, I dont want a UI in name only, with an overarching anglo-american culture. That would be a waste of time. SF have done a lot of good, and to say that from 1972 onward was just psycopathic violence is just , well, psycopathic, and willlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllddd ignorant.

As far as I and I think many people are concerned psychopathic violence is exactly what it was.

[5intheface]

Good question! and do you know since the betrayal by FF I don't think there is one. We need a new party in Ireland that or SF need a root and branch clear out, or maybe the SDLP could come south.

bernadette please, the SDLP? FF's buddies? They are a joke...oh I see, so was your suggestion.

[bernadette]

Stop? On a discussion board? :D

'And the Loyalists were every bit as bad' the same old same old addendum to prove how impartial you really are.

So we begin our history in 1972 to suit your argument then, anything else you'd like me to conveniently forget in the same manner as you ignore the great number of points I made to you earlier re. GAA, Brits, Irish government etc?

Just for fun could you explain why a Unionist, no matter what anyone does to please or offend them, would ever possibly vote for a united Ireland?

They would kinda stop being a Unionist the second they considered it.

No! We can begin in 1972 because that is when the violence really erupted.

Of course Loyalists were as bad as PIRA but its PIRASF who want support not loyalists. Why is it always one thing or the other, why is it not possible to condemn all violence and be understood to mean just that?

Loyalists don't have to win all they have to do is stand still. Its republicans who need to win votes and through them a UI.

[Sidewinder]

As far as I and I think many people are concerned psychopathic violence is exactly what it was.

The World According to The Sindo.

This is just insane, counter-factual and just plain stupid frankly. Though granted it is the childish, infantile, cartoonish, black-and-white, uninformed version of the history of the north that has been relentlessly pushed by the Deefer media for decades.

Reducing a deeply entangled social, economic, historical, colonial armed conflict that was just the latest 30-year instalment in a cycle of imperialism and resistance to it going back at the very minimum to the Tudor reconquest in the late 16th century to "some psychos did it" strikes me as just plain demented.

Very typical of a certain mindset in the south of course, but still demented.

[bernadette]

The World According to The Sindo.

This is just insane, counter-factual and just plain stupid frankly. Though granted it is the childish, infantile, cartoonish, black-and-white, uninformed version of the history of the north that has been relentlessly pushed by the Deefer media for decades.

Reducing a deeply entangled social, economic, historical, colonial armed conflict that was just the latest 30-year instalment in a cycle of imperialism and resistance to it going back at the very minimum to the Tudor reconquest in the late 16th century to "some psychos did it" strikes me as just plain demented.

Very typical of a certain mindset in the south of course, but still demented.

Lets just reduce it to a bomb in a bus station or a bullet in some innocent passer by shall we.

I think I've gone far enough with this. The little jibes keep slipping in: childish, ignorant, demented and, of course, stupid. Yeah.

[5intheface]

No! We can begin in 1972 because that is when the violence really erupted.

Of course Loyalists were as bad as PIRA but its PIRASF who want support not loyalists. Why is it always one thing or the other, why is it not possible to condemn all violence and be understood to mean just that?

Loyalists don't have to win all they have to do is stand still. Its republicans who need to win votes and through them a UI.

That's preposterous way of looking at things bernadette. You can't just jump in at a point you decide and refuse to acknowledge anything else. Especially when the claim doesn't stand up. You not hear about ballymurphy?

I can't and don't pretend to speak for anyone else when I answer your question; I won't join in a general condemnation of violence because not only was some of it inevitable but utterly necessary. Woolly tosh to the contrary helps no one understand the past and ensures it will happen again.

I'd share the passivist outlook if I thought it would help but I saw with my own eyes how that went.

Your last paragraph disturbs me, you just keep rolling everyone in to neat little boxes and now you've created a straight win/lose aspect. Do you think after 40+ years of this 5hite pervading every aspect of people's lives that our main aim in life is some meaningless victory over people who we've been trying to convince that we're not their enemies?

Aaaarrrggghhh!

[Ogiol]

Lets just reduce it to a bomb in a bus station or a bullet in some innocent passer by shall we.

I think I've gone far enough with this. The little jibes keep slipping in: childish, ignorant, demented and, of course, stupid. Yeah.

Indeed, but you still maintain that everything post 1972 was just sadistic, unwanton and plainly murderous, as well as being completely and wholly unrelated to everything that happened pre 1972.

That is as great an example of spoofery as i've heard or read in a long time. (thankfully i dont read the sindo)

[Sidewinder]

No! We can begin in 1972 because that is when the violence really erupted.

:rolleyes:

Mad, mad stuff. Even for the latest phase of the conflict yer 6 years out. And, as others have already said, deliberately so. The Deefer/Sindo/RTE view of the world insists on starting history from the middle of 1972 for a very particular reason - the handwaving and whitewashing away of the entire period from 1966 onwards (or indeed, 1922).

Decades of electoral and economic discrimination and oppression. Gerrymandering. The B Specials. Gusty Spence's UVF shooting and bombing campaign of the late 1960s. NICRA being beaten off the streets. Bombay St. Irish Army Field hospitals along the border treating streams of refugees in 1969/70. Ballymurphy. Bloody Sunday.

Never happened, in Sindoworld. The Provos just beamed down from Mars in the middle of 1972 and started blowing sh1t up for no apparent reason. :rolleyes:

Disingenuous, mendacious, twisted and dishonest. Now sure, maybe you've just been spoonfed it all your life and are just parroting the establishment media line, but you need to be aware of just how ridiculous (and without credibility) anyone who comes out with this auld post-colonial propaganda guff looks to anyone who actually knows the history of the north (and especially those of us who had to live in it!).

[5intheface]

Lets just reduce it to a bomb in a bus station or a bullet in some innocent passer by shall we.

I think I've gone far enough with this. The little jibes keep slipping in: childish, ignorant, demented and, of course, stupid. Yeah.

Why reduce it? What does that do? How does it help? What do we learn from it? How does it assist in making sure that it doesn't happen again?

And you haven't gone far enough. you haven't gone anywhere, you're stuck in a stubborn rut and refuse to acknowledge any of the points made but simply persist in blaming one select crew to which you attribute the lion's share if not all the guilt.

[bernadette]

That's preposterous way of looking at things bernadette. You can't just jump in at a point you decide and refuse to acknowledge anything else. Especially when the claim doesn't stand up. You not hear about ballymurphy?

I can't and don't pretend to speak for anyone else when I answer your question; I won't join in a general condemnation of violence because not only was some of it inevitable but utterly necessary. Woolly tosh to the contrary helps no one understand the past and ensures it will happen again.

I'd share the passivist outlook if I thought it would help but I saw with my own eyes how that went.

Your last paragraph disturbs me, you just keep rolling everyone in to neat little boxes and now you've created a straight win/lose aspect. Do you think after 40+ years of this 5hite pervading every aspect of people's lives that our main aim in life is some meaningless victory over people who we've been trying to convince that we're not their enemies?

Aaaarrrggghhh!

Indeed. I'm saying that from 1972 the violence was, to say the least, unnecessary.

What is it they say the GFA was for slow learners? I definitely see that here.

[Shaadi]

Good question! and do you know since the betrayal by FF I don't think there is one. We need a new party in Ireland that or SF need a root and branch clear out, or maybe the SDLP could come south.There are some members of FF who have a good understanding of Republicanism, although tbey show little interest in practicing it.

Let's discuss FF and the parties Republicanism in the context of your earlier posts about the Provos and the Adams family. The provos were allegedly set on their way by FF, so why do you think that happened?

Adams senior was allegedly an abuser and one of his sons was allegedly the same. Sounds like a family with problems, these families exist and the abuse is personally very distressing for family members. You condemn Gerry for not going to the cops earlier, fair enough the truth will out eventually

Now what party of republicans ran the southern state when mass abuse and sexual abuse was taking place? Did these republicans come from messed up families, were they involved in a war with the authorities and sworn to not cooperate with a state that killed their comrades as well as facilitating loyalist death squads.

The answer is a resounding no, FF were inexcusably complicit in allowing mass child rape and physical abuse for no reason other than cowardice and callousness.

The Provos ran rackets to finance their war, a tiny amount of them made a good lifestyle from illegal activities. FF ran the state to facilitate their friends, they had property developers for TDs and many of them enriched themselves by corruption. They sold a generation into debt for no reason other than greed. They destroyed our sovereignty.

Just curious, when did you stop voting for them. 2011?

[Ogiol]

Indeed. I'm saying that from 1972 the violence was, to say the least, unnecessary.

What is it they say the GFA was for slow learners? I definitely see that here.

Your unwillingness to even enter a real debate and not just continuously splurge out utter falsehoods and plain manipulation really says alot about you on this issue. Its either that or you really do believe all you read in the sindo et. all.

The next post i make on this thread will be back on topic.

[5intheface]

Indeed. I'm saying that from 1972 the violence was, to say the least, unnecessary.

What is it they say the GFA was for slow learners? I definitely see that here.

So a civil rights march ends in 13 dead and you think peaceful protest would be the way forward?

Sunningdale for slow learners. It's the GFA they are talking about.

It doesn't stand up to any examination at any rate. Republicans were not even considered at Sunningdale but it hardly mattered with Paisley taking it down.

[Sidewinder]

Republicans were not even considered at Sunningdale but it hardly mattered with Paisley taking it down.

Funny how an armed fascist coup by violent Loyalism in 1974 also magically disappears when viewed from Sindoworld, even though it happened 2 years after the beginning of time :rolleyes:

Or Internment, there's another one, lasted till 1975 so it happened during recorded history. Except it didn't.

[bernadette]

There are some members of FF who have a good understanding of Republicanism, although tbey show little interest in practicing it.

Let's discuss FF and the parties Republicanism in the context of your earlier posts about the Provos and the Adams family. The provos were allegedly set on their way by FF, so why do you think that happened?

Adams senior was allegedly an abuser and one of his sons was allegedly the same. Sounds like a family with problems, these families exist and the abuse is personally very distressing for family members. You condemn Gerry for not going to the cops earlier, fair enough the truth will out eventually

Now what party of republicans ran the southern state when mass abuse and sexual abuse was taking place? Did these republicans come from messed up families, were they involved in a war with the authorities and sworn to not cooperate with a state that killed their comrades as well as facilitating loyalist death squads.

The answer is a resounding no, FF were inexcusably complicit in allowing mass child rape and physical abuse for no reason other cowardice and callousness.

The Provos ran rackets to finance their war, a tiny amount of them made a good lifestyle from illegal activities. FF ran the state to facilitate their friends, they had property developers for TDs and many of them enriched themselves by corruption. They sold a generation into debt for no reason other than greed. The destroyed our sovereignty.

Just curious, when did you stop voting for them. 2011?



FF

No I don't blame Gerry Adams for not going to the police about any incest within his own family. Victims of abuse often don't report it and if a child is a victim of the abuse itself or of living in fear of it is a very debatable point. He and his familys reaction is kind of normal for victims of abuse.

I worked at the Old Bailey during an incest case, well more than one, but this one involved an ex royal protection officer, another involved a family of Hasidic Jews. So there is no cut off point, no section of society which cannot be affected. In both the above cases btw the families did not want the case to go to court.....

My objection is that PIRA prevented people from reporting all crimes to the police.

FF are gombeen rubbish but that doesn't make SF any better.

I've been Labour since Mary Robinson ran for the presidency. The real question as far as I'm concerned is: Who will I vote for next time.

[5intheface]

Funny how an armed fascist coup by violent Loyalism in 1974 also magically disappears when viewed from Sindoworld, even though it happened 2 years after the beginning of time :rolleyes:

My burning memory of that time was witnessing a local leading Unionist (Politician and former cop) who was organising the road closures smirking to the RUC sergeant about how we'd have to get our stale bread elsewhere.

I blame the provos of course.

[bernadette]

Your unwillingness to even enter a real debate and not just continuously splurge out utter falsehoods and plain manipulation really says alot about you on this issue. Its either that or you really do believe all you read in the sindo et. all.

The next post i make on this thread will be back on topic.

Your problem is what I've said is undeniable, so call it every name you can think of it will still be true.

[Sidewinder]

I've been Labour

Quelle surprise.

In the 16 or so years I spent as an adult living in the south, the most deranged reactionary insane dribblings about the north always came from Labour voters. Not Blueshirts as the stereotypes would suggest. In fact apart from the bug-eyed insane full-on-westbrit wing of FG most sane FGers I ever met were capable of rational discussion and agree-to-disagree polite debate on the topic.

FFers were a mixed bunch, a lot of the grassroots still see themselves as radical republicans (how I cannot fathom, but they do), the rest of the party grassroots are reactionary uberconservative authoritarian nutters.

It was always Labour where I encountered the pure irrational hysterical vitriol, anti-northern rampant prejudices, and cartoon ill-informed version of history.

[Ogiol]

Your problem is what I've said is undeniable, so call it every name you can think of it will still be true.

What is undeniable is the utter tosh you come out with.

Now thats enough of your non-arguments. History did not start in 1972, there were hundreds of years of presidence before that, and in particular, that conflict started, arguable and forgiving (i know) the unionist statlet, in 1966. Where do you get off. You yourself cannot rewrite history. 50 years of economic repression followed by death squads (sanctioned by the state) and pogroms (which means being burned out of your own house, etc.) and you still think that history started in 1972.

READ a bit more please.

[Shaadi]

FF are gombeen rubbish but that doesn't make SF any better.

I've been Labour since Mary Robinson ran for the presidency. The real question as far as I'm concerned is: Who will I vote for next time.Well your choice is probably limited. FG seems to be out for you, FF as well. You hate SF and that overrides your admiration of some of their political views. So you could go with an Independent or ULA type if you have one available to you.

Personally In the absense of a suitable ULA/IND candidate I think you should stick with Labour, you knew what they were made of when you voted for them and that's how they've performed. I doubt National sovereignty in a European context greatly troubles you. So you might as well stick with Irelands Liberal party and join the technocratic USE, if that's a direction you're comfortable with.

[bernadette]

What is undeniable is the utter tosh you come out with.

Now thats enough of your non-arguments. History did not start in 1972, there were hundreds of years of presidence before that, and in particular, that conflict started, arguable and forgiving (i know) the unionist statlet, in 1966. Where do you get off. You yourself cannot rewrite history. 50 years of economic repression followed by death squads (sanctioned by the state) and pogroms (which means being burned out of your own house, etc.) and you still think that history started in 1972.

READ a bit more please.

You're right history did not start in 1972 it started with Cromwell.

Sod off.


Well your choice is probably limited. FG seems to be out for you, FF as well. You hate SF and that overrides your admiration of some of their political views. So you could go with an Independent or ULA type if you have one available to you.

Personally In the absense of a suitable ULA/IND candidate I think you should stick with Labour, you knew what they were made of when you voted for them and that's how they've performed. I doubt National sovereignty in a European context greatly troubles you. So you might as well stick with Irelands Liberal party and join the technocratic USE, if that's a direction you're comfortable with.

Don't be patronising.

I might vote for SF, if they have new leaders, there's time for commonsense to prevail in the party.

[5intheface]

Sod off.
.

Bernadette! :eek:

[Shaadi]

Don't be patronising.

I might vote for SF, if they have new leaders, there's time for commonsense to prevail in the party.I'm calling it as I see it, you're probably a Liberal Pro-European Social Democrat and that's not a crime. National Soveignty means little to Labour and if I've read you wrong I apologise.

[bernadette]

Bernadette! :eek:

You've been sniping all evening, one insult after another.:p

[5intheface]

You've been sniping all evening, one insult after another.:p

Er...you didn't say it to me.

I've been disagreeing with your opinions all evening, that's what happens in a debate. I think some of your opinions are ludicrous but that's not anything personal. You are quite entitled to have them.

[Apjp]

Good question! and do you know since the betrayal by FF I don't think there is one. We need a new party in Ireland that or SF need a root and branch clear out, or maybe the SDLP could come south.

You were a FF voter then? Explains everything.

[riposte]

You've been sniping all evening, one insult after another.:p

Yeah ... you'd be better off watching more television bernadette.

[bernadette]

Yeah ... you'd be better off watching more television bernadette.
I've been watching YouTube that suit you? I must say I found some of it interesting, educational too...

[bernadette]

Er...you didn't say it to me.

I've been disagreeing with your opinions all evening, that's what happens in a debate. I think some of your opinions are ludicrous but that's not anything personal. You are quite entitled to have them.

Sorry I meant to say it to Ogiol

I will list three: demented, stupid ignorant.

I think they are personal and whoever says them intends them to be taken personally, that's not debate that's attack.

I don't have a problem with debate and when I'm wrong I do like to be corrected how else does anyone including me learn.

Nothing about the north is a straight right/wrong answer and it always arouses the strongest, worst passions.....

[5intheface]

Nothing about the north is a straight right/wrong answer and it always arouses the strongest, worst passions.....

Finally something we can agree on.

[bernadette]

Finally something we can agree on.

+1:)

[Sidewinder]

Bernadette, you've shown precious little sign of wanting to learn and be corrected on this thread. And was it not you who attempted to boil the entire thing down by asserting "after some date in 1972 it was just psychopaths". No straight right/wrong answers there, eh.

Frankly some of the stuff you were coming out with, when not preposterous and uninformed, was at times bordering on typical xenophobic anti-Nordie hysteria. For those of us who had to live in the north during the 70s and 80s your simplistic reactionary propaganda is highly, highly insulting. You usually go around insulting people then whine when they shove back? Of course you don't. But decades of Sindo/RTE propaganda has convinced you it's just fine to sneer at Nordies.

[bernadette]

Bernadette, you've shown precious little sign of wanting to learn and be corrected on this thread. And was it not you who attempted to boil the entire thing down by asserting "after some date in 1972 it was just psychopaths". No straight right/wrong answers there, eh.

Frankly some of the stuff you were coming out with, when not preposterous and uninformed, was at times bordering on typical xenophobic anti-Nordie hysteria. For those of us who had to live in the north during the 70s and 80s your simplistic reactionary propaganda is highly, highly insulting. You usually go around insulting people then whine when they shove back? Of course you don't. But decades of Sindo/RTE propaganda has convinced you it's just fine to sneer at Nordies.

No it wasn't uninformed I reached different opinions to the herd is all. I try never to insult anyone, you should try it too.

[Ogiol]

You're right history did not start in 1972 it started with Cromwell.

Sod off.



Don't be patronising.

I might vote for SF, if they have new leaders, there's time for commonsense to prevail in the party.


Bernadette! :eek:

Come on now, Bernie, dont get angry when someone points out the truth (or the fact that history does indeed exist)

[bernadette]

Come on now, Bernie, dont get angry when someone points out the truth (or the fact that history does indeed exist)

The problem is the republican sheep only recognise the history that suits them, their truth is not always the truth. I get tired of insults read the thread.

[Ogiol]

Sorry I meant to say it to Ogiol

I will list three: demented, stupid ignorant.

I think they are personal and whoever says them intends them to be taken personally, that's not debate that's attack.

I don't have a problem with debate and when I'm wrong I do like to be corrected how else does anyone including me learn.

Nothing about the north is a straight right/wrong answer and it always arouses the strongest, worst passions.....


Bernie, id just like to point out to those concerned, that after lookin through this thread, not once did i personally attack you, and therefore what u say (demented, stupid ignorant) is once again, a falsehood.

Me, as well as many other posters, took offence to your position and downright ignorance on affairs about the 6 counties. Your opinion was called ignorant, and hasnt been demonstrated otherwise yet, but never were you call anything.

So please keep with the high standards of this site and remember its not ''that other site where debate doesnt exist but rather is brought down to levels of personal insult''.:mad::D

[Sidewinder]

No it wasn't uninformed I reached different opinions to the herd is all. I try never to insult anyone, you should try it too.

There's a level of lack of self-awareness and lack of actually processing what multiple people have been saying to you for the last day in this post that worries me.

[bernadette]

There's a level of lack of self-awareness and lack of actually processing what multiple people have been saying to you for the last day in this post that worries me.

Really? Well its hard to keep track of the four or five people?on this thread who have been taking shots of one description or another at me.

I believe SF under its current leadership are unfit to run a bus never mind this government. I believe PIRA murdered indiscriminately and with the loyalists are the main reason the violence went on for so long.

I'm very aware of the palpitations my beliefs seem to have caused on PW. Its still true and all the rush to condemn is nothing more than the usual shinner attempt to rewrite history.

[unspecific]

Where Sinn Fein are in government - the North - they are attempting to cut corporation tax on the wealthy to just 12.5%(like FF), are implementing austerity and budget attacks(like FF) and oppose full, equal rights for women(like FF).

If the end result of this crisis politically is that FF have just changed their name to SF-FF then that will be a huge disappointment and failure of this once in a century chance to realign Irish politics.

[Ogiol]

Where Sinn Fein are in government - the North - they are attempting to cut corporation tax on the wealthy to just 12.5%(like FF), are implementing austerity and budget attacks(like FF) and oppose full, equal rights for women(like FF).

If the end result of this crisis politically is that FF have just changed their name to SF-FF then that will be a huge disappointment and failure of this once in a century chance to realign Irish politics.

Within the UI strategy theres a bit that says try and make things as similar/normal as possible. That, i think, is the reason for the corporation tax. They also seem to be looking for approval by the rich, which is very dangerous.

The north has to deal with a block grant. That grant was cut hugely. Therefore it has to be distributed differently. SF cannot leave the government in protest as the situation is still fragile and 'normal' politics will still not work. Therefore SF stay in gov. and decide to try and make decisions that least affect the less well off. Unfortunately the other party running hte show is extreme right wing (DUP) so they cant stop all the cuts at the bottom.

Is that understandable? Now stop swallowing sindo propaganda about the north.

If by oppossing full equal rights for women you mean abortion then you're mistaken my friend. SF as a party have no specific policy on abortion because they recognise that the party itself is divided between those that support and those that dont. Therefore, you see McG. against it (he's a holy joe) and Mary Lou in favour.

I know labour members opposed to abortion. Most of FG and FF are also oppossed. I fail to see how SF is different in this regard (accept in that a large element supports it).

Oh and one small difference. SF did not commit economic treason and endebt the whole country up to the eyeballs and for the next 30years.

[Shaadi]

Where Sinn Fein are in government - the North - they are attempting to cut corporation tax on the wealthy to just 12.5%(like FF), are implementing austerity and budget attacks(like FF) and oppose full, equal rights for women(like FF).

If the end result of this crisis politically is that FF have just changed their name to SF-FF then that will be a huge disappointment and failure of this once in a century chance to realign Irish politics.SF in the North is fishing in the mainstream of voters and have a captive and conservative audience.

In the South they're more liberal and less mainstream and they can't rely on voter loyalty. As regards Corporation Tax, Jobs, Jobs, Jobs. Better to put up with low Corpo Tax and have employment than not. It's a globalsed capatilist world and every single asset needs to be utilised to compete in it.

[Apjp]

Really? Well its hard to keep track of the four or five people?on this thread who have been taking shots of one description or another at me.

I believe SF under its current leadership are unfit to run a bus never mind this government. I believe PIRA murdered indiscriminately and with the loyalists are the main reason the violence went on for so long.

I'm very aware of the palpitations my beliefs seem to have caused on PW. Its still true and all the rush to condemn is nothing more than the usual shinner attempt to rewrite history.

Ah. As opposed the ever competent and patriotic socially conscious Labour Party?

[bernadette]

Ah. As opposed the ever competent and patriotic socially conscious Labour Party?

I may have made a teeny little mistake when I voted for Labour at the last election.

[fluffybiscuits]

Bernadette, you've shown precious little sign of wanting to learn and be corrected on this thread. And was it not you who attempted to boil the entire thing down by asserting "after some date in 1972 it was just psychopaths". No straight right/wrong answers there, eh.

Frankly some of the stuff you were coming out with, when not preposterous and uninformed, was at times bordering on typical xenophobic anti-Nordie hysteria. For those of us who had to live in the north during the 70s and 80s your simplistic reactionary propaganda is highly, highly insulting. You usually go around insulting people then whine when they shove back? Of course you don't. But decades of Sindo/RTE propaganda has convinced you it's just fine to sneer at Nordies.


That is extremely unfair and unbecoming of you Sidewinder and you know that. We tend to disagree on here a lot of us on a lot of things but to accuse someone of being xenophobic against NI'ers is wide of the mark and very surprising , I would ask you issue a retraction of that . Not once has she been xenophobic and if she is xenophobic then I must come across as pure hatred? (Far from it). A lot of our opinions are formed from the media, the internet, discussion, friends, from visiting the North and other agents of society. Your desire to label everything you disagree with just further undermines your argument. What is Republicanism to you? I have asked you and other members, have given my understanding. So in plain simple terms and without any bullshit what does Republicansim mean to you?


Where Sinn Fein are in government - the North - they are attempting to cut corporation tax on the wealthy to just 12.5%(like FF), are implementing austerity and budget attacks(like FF) and oppose full, equal rights for women(like FF).

If the end result of this crisis politically is that FF have just changed their name to SF-FF then that will be a huge disappointment and failure of this once in a century chance to realign Irish politics.

+1000000

Their view on the cuts up in NI and then down here opposing the cuts is nothing short of ironic...


Within the UI strategy theres a bit that says try and make things as similar/normal as possible. That, i think, is the reason for the corporation tax. They also seem to be looking for approval by the rich, which is very dangerous.

The north has to deal with a block grant. That grant was cut hugely. Therefore it has to be distributed differently. SF cannot leave the government in protest as the situation is still fragile and 'normal' politics will still not work. Therefore SF stay in gov. and decide to try and make decisions that least affect the less well off. Unfortunately the other party running hte show is extreme right wing (DUP) so they cant stop all the cuts at the bottom.

Is that understandable? Now stop swallowing sindo propaganda about the north.

If by oppossing full equal rights for women you mean abortion then you're mistaken my friend. SF as a party have no specific policy on abortion because they recognise that the party itself is divided between those that support and those that dont. Therefore, you see McG. against it (he's a holy joe) and Mary Lou in favour.

I know labour members opposed to abortion. Most of FG and FF are also oppossed. I fail to see how SF is different in this regard (accept in that a large element supports it).

Oh and one small difference. SF did not commit economic treason and endebt the whole country up to the eyeballs and for the next 30years.


Again with the SIndo label...

And Shinners have issued a position on abortion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19930422


Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, has said his party is opposed to any liberalisation of the law on abortion in Northern Ireland.

Its banned in NI at the moment..