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C. Flower
30-10-2011, 11:52 AM
A day of celebration for the Labour Party. Lest we get too carried away, I thought I'd start a general thread on the Labour Party's performance in Government.

A couple of stories today from the Indo -

Labour Party donor appointed to Bord Bia -

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/labour-party-donor-gets-job-on-bord-bia-quango-2921042.html

Rabitte opens the door for the return of big bonuses.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/rabbitte-opens-door-for-return-of-big-bonuses-2921041.html

antiestablishmentarian
30-10-2011, 11:59 AM
They have been more FG than the Blueshirts themselves so far. Sickening highlights have been:

1. Moan Burton's attacks on 'dole cheats' and the long term unemployed, as well as her sponsorship of the undercutting graduate internship scheme.
2. Howlin's sponsorship of the Oireachtas inquiry referendum.
3. Reneging on their election campaign not to reintroduce third level tuition fees
4. Rabitte's u-turn in policy on the issue of natural resources ownership and taxation.

For shame Labour, you lied to voters desperate for change with the full intention of not implementing your promised reforms in power once you'd got your backsides into the ministerial cars, hopefully you'll be punished for your cynical lies come the next General Election.

Anti-Coalition
30-10-2011, 01:09 PM
The Labour party is has abandoned its traditionally strong stance on heritage protection.

Although the National Monuments Act 2004 was found to be in breach of EU law by the ECJ, early this year, the Government has not yet amended it, and illegal demolition of national monuments, during roads projects, is still on the books.

The Dept of the Environment is proposing to delist all monuments, post 1700, to save money,

They have been completely silent on the N2 Slane bypass threat to Newgrange, which is twice as close as the M3 was to Tara - and they made a huge stink out of that one.

Before the Election they said that the half a billion euros that Bertie had promised the Nordies for the A5 part of the Dublin to Derry road was "not a priority" for Labour. Not long after, in June, Gilmore reaffirmed Bertie's promise, to donate the half a billion fgor road building...while cuts to social welfare etc are proposed.

Slane Resident
11-11-2011, 05:31 PM
They have been completely silent on the N2 Slane bypass threat to Newgrange, which is twice as close as the M3 was to Tara - and they made a huge stink out of that one.



This is what happens when you cry wolf once to often.

Save Tara alleged that Tara was going to be ruined, and when the road was completed it was obvious that it was, in fact, unharmed. Even the Druids who attend there said it was unaltered although I seem to remember one thought the aura might have changed. :D

So when Save Newgrange burst on the scene talking about the demolition of Newgrange (as you still do AC) then I presume, and hope that this was taken with a very large pinch of salt. Once it became clear that the road was 3.5 km away from Newgrange itself, not the 22 acre buffer zone around the entire BnB site, and that the new road would not be visible from NG unless you climbed the dolmen, which is expressly forbidden, and used binoculars, well....

And Labour have not been quiet. Dominic Hannigan has been very vocal in support of this vitally needed life saving bypass, and gave evidence to the oral hearing in that regard.

Holly
11-11-2011, 07:14 PM
Eamon Gilmore's constant condemnation of Palestinian firecrackers and Roman Candles dilutes any criticism he makes about Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of the Territories and building of settlements.

Apjp
11-11-2011, 07:24 PM
Saw a Labour TD say we cant stand upto the ECB on the VB show this week cos we arent a sovereign country. Captain Cons auld analogy that these were the same traitors who a 100 years ago and longer back throughout our history to the days of Wolfe tone etc., went to the back of Dublin castle for their 30 pieces of silver seemed appropriate. The same people who today say Ireland isnt a sovereign nation are the descendents of the Pale residents who feasted Cromwell before sending him off down the merry road to Slaughter 4000 people in drogheda and embeggar or kill another 500'000 Irish people in the process. I have a feeling that if Germany or the Yanks/Brits had invaded us in the second world war, thered have been clamours for a new act of union from these types.

Time the methods which proved successful before here and elsewhere to elites were applied.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 01:38 PM
Labour TDs fear a "whitewash" review of the party’s patchy general election performance is being "sat on" by the leadership.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/labour-sitting-on-whitewash-review-182647.html#ixzz1lQ2h10la




Despite the campaign being a year ago, the review was not presented to the party’s 12-person executive board until November — and the leadership is refusing to distribute it further.

"How long does it take to write the sentence: ‘We fucked up?’" one Labour TD asked.

Another revealed: "I understand the first draft was so explosive it had to be rewritten several times." Another said: "I’m concerned about a whitewash. It would not be in the leadership’s interest to be honest about what happened."


With backbench discontent growing over perceived high-handed leadership and a failure to project a distinctive Labour narrative onto a Fine Gael-dominated administration, some TDs believe Joan Burton may be positioning herself for a leadership challenge.

"It would just take eight or nine of us to stand up at the PLP [the weekly parliamentary Labour Party meeting] and tell Gilmore our confidence has run out, for him to be gone — he couldn’t survive a quarter of the party saying that," one TD said.

Discontent is rising. TDs complain the leadership has given up pushing the party’s economic objections and is instead planning to focus on a "liberal agenda" including closing the Vatican embassy and legislating on the X case — but not on radical manifesto pledges such as gay marriage equality.





ho ho ho,

Baron von Biffo
04-02-2012, 01:56 PM
"some TDs believe Joan Burton may be positioning herself for a leadership challenge."

Might as well just rename themselves The Progressive Democrats.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 02:08 PM
I like this


"The campaign was a mess — the ‘Gilmore for Taoiseach’ line imploded — so we were on the back foot the whole way, we made all those promises in the last 10 days to try and stop Fine Gael and they have come back to haunt us now."

Sidewinder
04-02-2012, 04:58 PM
I'm surprised any of you are surprised.

Remember this is the party that inflicted the Cruiser on us, and was quite happy with the Harrisite takeover of RTE.

Tis also the party of Pat Rabbitte, who once upon a time many years ago dismissed my argument with a "Well you're a northerner so so aren't actually Irish, so I don't have to listen to you"

Labour have always been a right-wing revisionist anti-national party.

disability student
04-02-2012, 07:09 PM
Tis also the party of Pat Rabbitte, who once upon a time many years ago dismissed my argument with a "Well you're a northerner so so aren't actually Irish, so I don't have to listen to you"


Bloody cheeky and arrogant comments coming from Rabbitte.




Labour have always been a right-wing revisionist anti-national party.

Laboour exposed big time now as they can no longer be seen as a left wing party. Are they lot worse than the Greens??

Their actions defined them as right wing party as a consequence of numerous cuts inflicted on the less well off society. You have to seperate from their leftie talk and their govt actions which doesn't match up.

It's well known that Labour and FG are pro British.

PaddyJoe
09-04-2012, 12:24 PM
Labour need to assert themselves in government, says Nessa Childers. Party conference coming up next weekend.

At a national level I can see the difficulties for the Labour Party, and we must assert ourselves. What you would see with a large and a small coalition party is that a certain arrogance can creep into the larger party.
http://www.thejournal.ie/fg-and-ff-both-attached-to-big-business-says-labour-mep-411561-Apr2012/?utm_source=twitter_self

Richardbouvet
09-04-2012, 01:28 PM
Nessa speaks for many members, myself included. Economically, this is a FG government.

For me there are 2 deal-breakers which have not yet been acted on. One is collective bargaining rights, the other is a single-tier health service. If the govt gets these 2 things I am willing to take some stick from the ULA and others for being in government. If they do not happen, then Labour must pull out.

As for the coming Galway conference, I am concerned that the ULA's opportunist anti-Labour event, plus household tax demos outside our conference, will drive Labour waverers into the arms of the leadership. That of course is precisely what the ULA wants.

Greengoddess
09-04-2012, 03:49 PM
Hi guys! ( gender neutral ) just off flight and saw thread open. Look, I am separate from the power structure in the Party, no threat to leader or minister alike. I have nothing to lose. Including my seat, which is probably gone. That leaves a certain freedom. Richard is right about policy. I think we need some 'red lines'. Far from promoting instability they would remove the possibility of a bottomless pit of policies which no decent social democrat would stand by. It would be at this point that we get serious with the Troika. And this is where Labour must assert itself. Fine Gael are members of the EPP. The SAME Party as Merkel. Go figure. However, I alone can not do much. it will require the Party leadership in the collective noun form, to take this seriously. They may. Eventually. But will it be too late?

unspecific
10-04-2012, 12:27 AM
Fine Gael are members of the EPP. The SAME Party as Merkel. Go figure. However, I alone can not do much. it will require the Party leadership in the collective noun form, to take this seriously. They may. Eventually. But will it be too late?

And Labour are in the S&D/PES group, which contains the Greek Labour Party(PASOK) who have inflicted some of the most offensive attacks on regular people to keep banks afloat in the post-war era. Likewise, the PSOE in Spain have presided over a 23 percent unemployment rate(the indignados are a good indication as to how nice they were). Likewise your Socialist Party in Portugal presided over the arrival of the age of bailouts in that country. Martin Schulz, president of the EP is presiding over the most disgusting neoliberal treaties the EU has ever churned out, and called them an act of solidarity.

PES/S&D have been as guilty as anyone in the EPP in ushering in the age of bailouts. That's why things like the indignados, occupy, new left parties and massive strike action have emerged. The social-democrat sphere completely sold out long ago and have been first in line to implement the bailouts(ie austerity). It's not about this personality or that personality, or this party or that party. The entire social democrat ideology is bankrupt.

I take no pleasure in having to go to the trouble of starting new parties and movements to defend myself, but the blame for that lies at the feet of the Labour Party and not anyone elses.

Apjp
10-04-2012, 08:00 AM
Nessa speaks for many members, myself included. Economically, this is a FG government.

For me there are 2 deal-breakers which have not yet been acted on. One is collective bargaining rights, the other is a single-tier health service. If the govt gets these 2 things I am willing to take some stick from the ULA and others for being in government. If they do not happen, then Labour must pull out.

As for the coming Galway conference, I am concerned that the ULA's opportunist anti-Labour event, plus household tax demos outside our conference, will drive Labour waverers into the arms of the leadership. That of course is precisely what the ULA wants.

Collective bargaining rights? Sorry but what do you mean?

Apjp
10-04-2012, 08:05 AM
Hi guys! ( gender neutral ) just off flight and saw thread open. Look, I am separate from the power structure in the Party, no threat to leader or minister alike. I have nothing to lose. Including my seat, which is probably gone. That leaves a certain freedom. Richard is right about policy. I think we need some 'red lines'. Far from promoting instability they would remove the possibility of a bottomless pit of policies which no decent social democrat would stand by. It would be at this point that we get serious with the Troika. And this is where Labour must assert itself. Fine Gael are members of the EPP. The SAME Party as Merkel. Go figure. However, I alone can not do much. it will require the Party leadership in the collective noun form, to take this seriously. They may. Eventually. But will it be too late?

My advice? Get half your party to remember their country and get the hell out of govt. and cut loose the elite leadership. The least you could do is sound a few ructions by seeing if a few others would walk out on the govt. with you. Politicially, it's also the only chance most of you have of being re-elected so it's in your own interest.

Mind you even if you were serious, the mentality of others when it comes to standing up to the Labour leadership(or the Irish mentality of standing up to anyone and resisting scaremongering) shouldn't be underestimated.

Slim Buddha
10-04-2012, 08:29 AM
My advice? Get half your party to remember their country and get the hell out of govt. and cut loose the elite leadership. The least you could do is sound a few ructions by seeing if a few others would walk out on the govt. with you. Politicially, it's also the only chance most of you have of being re-elected so it's in your own interest.

Mind you even if you were serious, the mentality of others when it comes to standing up to the Labour leadership(or the Irish mentality of standing up to anyone and resisting scaremongering) shouldn't be underestimated.

Why only half? While we may be going through an unprecedented economic crisis, there is no real excuse for Labour in becoming a willing doormat for the unquestioning implementation of FG economic policy. In such a crisis, one would think a political party assured of its own principles would be even more determined to see those policies implemented to the maximum possible effect.

However, Labour are not so assured, are they?

Richardbouvet
10-04-2012, 11:17 AM
Apjp, I am a bit surprised you have not heard of collective bargaining rights. That would be the requirement for employers to deal with the unions where the workforce desire it. It is in the programme for govt but nothing has been done about it yet. The Labour membership will be demanding action on this.

Greengoddess
10-04-2012, 11:25 AM
Apjp, I am a bit surprised you have not heard of collective bargaining rights. That would be the requirement for employers to deal with the unions where the workforce desire it. It is in the programme for govt but nothing has been done about it yet. The Labour membership will be demanding action on this.

Eamon Gilmore has assured me that this will be progressed. I was concerned because Richard Bruton has been telling employers it will not happen. Apparently this is just optics.....
Apparently.

disability student
10-04-2012, 01:09 PM
Does their left hand know what their right hand is doing re to labour party?

As far as i'm concerned, Labour are damaged goods and discredited. No amount of publicity nor airing their problems in public would restore their image and reputation. They are in tatters and fast becoming Green party MARK 2. They are seen as right wing party than a left wing party as the damage is done.

I can't see labour party regaining all or most of tne seat that they have now. It would be in the region of five seat or less. They are due for a huge hammering just like FF received their bloody noses in the last election. I have no sympathies for them as they have shot themselves in their foot.

Greengoddess
10-04-2012, 02:23 PM
Does their left hand know what their right hand is doing re to labour party?

As far as i'm concerned, Labour are damaged goods and discredited. No amount of publicity nor airing their problems in public would restore their image and reputation. They are in tatters and fast becoming Green party MARK 2. They are seen as right wing party than a left wing party as the damage is done.

I can't see labour party regaining all or most of tne seat that they have now. It would be in the region of five seat or less. They are due for a huge hammering just like FF received their bloody noses in the last election. I have no sympathies for them as they have shot themselves in their foot.

What would you have us do? Leave government in the hands of FG? Call an election and have a coalition of FG and FF. Or one with SF in it which would do exactly the same IMOP. Or should we have avoided government ?

Sam Lord
10-04-2012, 02:29 PM
What would you have us do? Leave government in the hands of FG? Call an election and have a coalition of FG and FF. Or one with SF in it which would do exactly the same IMOP. Or should we have avoided government ?

Nothing can ever be done in Ireland but have more of the same. We appreciate that.

Greengoddess
10-04-2012, 02:41 PM
Nothing can ever be done in Ireland but have more of the same. We appreciate that.


So we all give up?

DCon
10-04-2012, 02:46 PM
What would you have us do? Leave government in the hands of FG? Call an election and have a coalition of FG and FF.

This might happen after full Ministerial pensions are accrued, as it did with the Greens.

But not before. Tongues will be held and lips bitten until the pensions are in the bank

Sam Lord
10-04-2012, 02:47 PM
So we all give up?

No. Some of us draw down big salaries for supporting more of the same. But of course there is no alternative. "If we didn't do it someone else would..."

disability student
10-04-2012, 03:15 PM
This might happen after full Ministerial pensions are accrued, as it did with the Greens.

But not before. Tongues will be held and lips bitten until the pensions are in the bank


+100 hence the greater need for total overhaul of our political system including perks & pensions so forth.

Just wondering, how long would they have to wait for their pensions be qualified?:eek:

Cato
10-04-2012, 03:32 PM
Hi guys! ( gender neutral ) just off flight and saw thread open. Look, I am separate from the power structure in the Party, no threat to leader or minister alike. I have nothing to lose. Including my seat, which is probably gone. That leaves a certain freedom. Richard is right about policy. I think we need some 'red lines'. Far from promoting instability they would remove the possibility of a bottomless pit of policies which no decent social democrat would stand by. It would be at this point that we get serious with the Troika. And this is where Labour must assert itself. Fine Gael are members of the EPP. The SAME Party as Merkel. Go figure. However, I alone can not do much. it will require the Party leadership in the collective noun form, to take this seriously. They may. Eventually. But will it be too late?

Do you see any chance of some change occurring at the Conference next weekend? The leadership need to be rattled somehow. Anything that might achieve that?

I see that O'Shea, the current Chair of the party, is promising Stability and Continuity and boasts that there has been no dissent in the party during his time in the Chair.

disability student
10-04-2012, 03:33 PM
Re Minister's pensions,The qualification period for Ministerial pensions is merely two years in office and is payable from the age of 55. Ministers and Minister of State also avail of generous severance payments if they are demoted after only two years service. ... is that correct?

I had to look up the legalisation in relation to pensions as it refers back to 1922 (which is outdated by now) as it looks that it need a total revamp or alternatively, total overhaul of pensions entitlement by govt ministers to reflect the present/current times that we are now.

Link:http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1938/en/act/pub/0038/print.html

DCon
10-04-2012, 04:32 PM
+100 hence the greater need for total overhaul of our political system including perks & pensions so forth.

Just wondering, how long would they have to wait for their pensions be qualified?:eek:

not 100% sure, but the Greens seem to have done enough


Paul Gogarty: €107,703.61 in the first year, €21,985.79 every year thereafter.
John Gormley: €203,392.24 in the first year, €63,652.00 every year thereafter.
Eamon Ryan: €221,283.05 in the first year, €57,410.49 every year thereafter.

http://www.thejournal.ie/government-pensions-full-list-fianna-fail-green-party-election-2011-2011-3/

DCon
10-04-2012, 04:35 PM
Ministers and Minister of State also avail of generous severance payments if they are demoted after only two years service. ... is that correct?


I believe that is why the Greens had planned to play musical chairs with the Minister of State gigs. Get everyone a nice pension

unspecific
10-04-2012, 05:09 PM
There should be a respectable presence demonstrating at the Labour Conference on Saturday, consisting mainly of the Campaign Against Household & Water Taxes. Galway ULA will also be hosting an "Alternative" conference on Friday and Saturday in the Harbour Hotel.

The Labour leadership will not be let get away with what they have done.

Holly
10-04-2012, 05:13 PM
Labour has imploded and its supporters at the last election will vote United Left Alliance or Sinn Féin next time 'round.

Cato
10-04-2012, 05:20 PM
Labour has imploded and its supporters at the last election will vote United Left Alliance or Sinn Féin next time 'round.

That's not what the polling shows. Labour's support since the election has leaked to FG and not to the ULA or SF.

Holly
10-04-2012, 05:27 PM
That's not what the polling shows. Labour's support since the election has leaked to FG and not to the ULA or SF.
If this is what a poll is claiming it is manifestly false. No traditional Labour supporter would ever vote Finne Gwael.
Perhaps you could post the link to these polls?

riposte
10-04-2012, 05:30 PM
That's not what the polling shows. Labour's support since the election has leaked to FG and not to the ULA or SF.

Yeah ..that makes sense Cato ... Fine Gael are further to the left than Labour:...:rolleyes:

Baron von Biffo
10-04-2012, 06:16 PM
What would you have us do? Leave government in the hands of FG? Call an election and have a coalition of FG and FF. Or one with SF in it which would do exactly the same IMOP.

How would that be any worse? For that matter, how would anyone notice that Lab had left?

Burton never misses a chance to put the boot into the poor. She and Howlin are fighting for the medal for being the most right wing cabinet minister. Harte in Donegal has attacked SW recipients more rabidly than any FGer.

If anything, there might be a slight improvement for people living beyond the M50 with the opening up of 3 cabinet seats and the chance that they might go to TDs from outside the capital.


Or should we have avoided government ?

Yes.

When the Lab negotiators failed to get Finance (and no, Howlin's Dept. of Administrative Affairs isn't Finance) It was clear that they wouldn't be entering government as equals. You would have had more power had you offered FG a Tallaght style, Confidence and Supply deal.

More power but less glory for the oldies and it appears that the latter was the primary consideration.

Greengoddess
10-04-2012, 06:31 PM
How would that be any worse? For that matter, how would anyone notice that Lab had left?

Burton never misses a chance to put the boot into the poor. She and Howlin are fighting for the medal for being the most right wing cabinet minister. Harte in Donegal has attacked SW recipients more rabidly than any FGer.

If anything, there might be a slight improvement for people living beyond the M50 with the opening up of 3 cabinet seats and the chance that they might go to TDs from outside the capital.



Yes.

When the Lab negotiators failed to get Finance (and no, Howlin's Dept. of Administrative Affairs isn't Finance) It was clear that they wouldn't be entering government as equals. You would have had more power had you offered FG a Tallaght style, Confidence and Supply deal.

More power but less glory for the oldies and it appears that the latter was the primary consideration.


You may be right. However looking at it from a European birds eye view, I have seen many governments fall, others take their place and continueing the same policies. We would certainly have serious unrest here if that were to happen. Which is why I believe that an end has to occur to our bank debt which may involve us negotiating with serious intent. Or " unilaterally" as Mathews puts it. I seem to have something in common with him even though we have never met!

unspecific
10-04-2012, 07:08 PM
You may be right. However looking at it from a European birds eye view, I have seen many governments fall, others take their place and continueing the same policies. We would certainly have serious unrest here if that were to happen. Which is why I believe that an end has to occur to our bank debt which may involve us negotiating with serious intent. Or " unilaterally" as Mathews puts it. I seem to have something in common with him even though we have never met!

If you believe your seat is gone, can we ask that you take advantage of that liberation and use your position to campaign against what is being done to people by the government? If anything you'd be rewarded with holding your seat next time around?

Greengoddess
10-04-2012, 07:36 PM
If you believe your seat is gone, can we ask that you take advantage of that liberation and use your position to campaign against what is being done to people by the government? If anything you'd be rewarded with holding your seat next time around?

That would be my intention, but if you mean by next time around, 2019, I would have to concentrate on seeking alternative employment since I have no pension until I am 63. And then 1000 a month. It is difficult to think beyond that . Scary but no different then lots of us these days.
It is also unclear at this point what I can actually DO. I probably would need leadership skills in a form new to me for a start. Instinct tells me that change will come when enough Tds come to see the same thing . What I fear is that it may come too late for the people. Particularly with regard to the Troika. However I am a believer in words being like seeds that germinate in ways that you can't predict so I keep on saying things!

Baron von Biffo
11-04-2012, 11:14 AM
This might happen after full Ministerial pensions are accrued, as it did with the Greens.

But not before. Tongues will be held and lips bitten until the pensions are in the bank

If the Greens were just interested in pensions they would have collapsed the Cowen government but they didn't, or at least not intentionally. They withdrew from government but continued to support the minority FF administration.

This fixation with pensions is misguided. Most politicians who get to cabinet would be able to earn far higher salaries, perks and pensions in the private sector. And they wouldn't have to put up with all the sh!te that a political career entails.

Baron von Biffo
11-04-2012, 11:19 AM
You may be right. However looking at it from a European birds eye view, I have seen many governments fall, others take their place and continueing the same policies. We would certainly have serious unrest here if that were to happen. Which is why I believe that an end has to occur to our bank debt which may involve us negotiating with serious intent. Or " unilaterally" as Mathews puts it. I seem to have something in common with him even though we have never met!

We only have to look North to see that SF in government would impose all the measures here that they now oppose. As for the Alphabet Soup - If by some amazing chance they had a majority in the next Dail, they wouldn't be able to form a government because they're not capable of working with others on an equal basis.

Slim Buddha
11-04-2012, 12:01 PM
This fixation with pensions is misguided. Most politicians who get to cabinet would be able to earn far higher salaries, perks and pensions in the private sector. And they wouldn't have to put up with all the sh!te that a political career entails.


I think that a few in this Cabinet and most of the last Cabinet would struggle to get any kind of remunerable position in the private sector.

Greengoddess
11-04-2012, 12:45 PM
If the Greens were just interested in pensions they would have collapsed the Cowen government but they didn't, or at least not intentionally. They withdrew from government but continued to support the minority FF administration.

This fixation with pensions is misguided. Most politicians who get to cabinet would be able to earn far higher salaries, perks and pensions in the private sector. And they wouldn't have to put up with all the sh!te that a political career entails.
I actually agree with Baron here. Also the ' new' Ministers would be more afraid of losing their seats then pensions. I can't bear the thought that an entire country could go down the tubes because of Ministerial pensions

unspecific
11-04-2012, 03:06 PM
That would be my intention, but if you mean by next time around, 2019, I would have to concentrate on seeking alternative employment since I have no pension until I am 63. And then 1000 a month. It is difficult to think beyond that . Scary but no different then lots of us these days.
It is also unclear at this point what I can actually DO. I probably would need leadership skills in a form new to me for a start. Instinct tells me that change will come when enough Tds come to see the same thing . What I fear is that it may come too late for the people. Particularly with regard to the Troika. However I am a believer in words being like seeds that germinate in ways that you can't predict so I keep on saying things!

What you can do is get involved with the Campaign Against the Household Tax and the Campaign Against the Austerity Treaty. I'm not sure what news you get of these new grassroots campaigns in Brussels, but they are massive and widespread.

Get active, get vociferous. People are not fickle; if they see you running yourself into the ground to defend them(even if you're not successful), you will be rewarded with all the re-elections you desire. That's supposed to be how politics works! That's supposed to be how a Labour Party works especially!

Richardbouvet
11-04-2012, 03:46 PM
I will happily consider helping the campaign against the Austerity treaty, but so far there is no sign of any serious campaign.

Perhaps someone could prove me wrong by posting a link?

Griska
11-04-2012, 05:30 PM
I will happily consider helping the campaign against the Austerity treaty, but so far there is no sign of any serious campaign.

Perhaps someone could prove me wrong by posting a link?

Good point.
Perhaps you could start a campaign.

unspecific
11-04-2012, 05:40 PM
I will happily consider helping the campaign against the Austerity treaty, but so far there is no sign of any serious campaign.

Perhaps someone could prove me wrong by posting a link?

Hi Richard, there is a campaign called the Campaign Against the Austerity Treaty (CAAT). It is essentially the same people that fought Lisbon, and the same organizations involved in the Campaign Against the Household, Water, Septic Taxes(though they are separate).

If you are serious I could put you in touch? It's good to hear recognition from the Labour Party grassroots that the austerity treaty is a disaster.

DCon
11-04-2012, 05:48 PM
This fixation with pensions is misguided. Most politicians who get to cabinet would be able to earn far higher salaries, perks and pensions in the private sector. And they wouldn't have to put up with all the sh!te that a political career entails.

I think you give them too much credit. Looking at our recent Taoisigh, and their likely careers if they remained in the private sector:

Enda - teacher. Maybe a headmaster by now.

Cowen - country solicitor and small time property developer

Bertie - who knows but hardly significant earnings potential unless he was in organised crime.

Of recent Ministers the only ones I see as likely to have a high earnings potential are Reilly, Varadkar, Lenihan, Shatter and possibly Joan. There is a large amount of mediocrity around this and recent cabinet tables

Baron von Biffo
12-04-2012, 08:01 PM
I think you give them too much credit. Looking at our recent Taoisigh, and their likely careers if they remained in the private sector:

Enda - teacher. Maybe a headmaster by now.

Cowen - country solicitor and small time property developer

Bertie - who knows but hardly significant earnings potential unless he was in organised crime.

Of recent Ministers the only ones I see as likely to have a high earnings potential are Reilly, Varadkar, Lenihan, Shatter and possibly Joan. There is a large amount of mediocrity around this and recent cabinet tables

Would Cowen's prospects have been better had he been a D4 solicitor?

Greengoddess
12-04-2012, 10:47 PM
http://politico.ie/irish-politics/8458-nulty-labour-conference-offers-opportunity-for-policy-shift.html

TotalMayhem
12-04-2012, 10:58 PM
Patrick Nulty writes that his party's identity has been "somewhat eroded" since it entered government.

No shlt! :D

DCon
12-04-2012, 11:07 PM
Would Cowen's prospects have been better had he been a D4 solicitor?

highly likely, if he had the smarts.

but he would have been more comfortable being the big man about Clara and his rumoured intellect and political connections would have kept him in comfort

EMUII
12-04-2012, 11:10 PM
As one of the comments in that link points out... it's all just talk at the moment unless action is taken.... I've voted for Labour in the past including the last GE but will never again. I'm afraid they are on the road destruction unless they return to some sense of what they are supposed to stand for...

DCon
12-04-2012, 11:12 PM
Vinny Browne asks, "what difference have Labour made in government"?

http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp91/donnieschinalatina21/tumbleweed.jpg

Baron von Biffo
12-04-2012, 11:35 PM
highly likely, if he had the smarts.

but he would have been more comfortable being the big man about Clara and his rumoured intellect and political connections would have kept him in comfort

Sure 'tis a wonder us poor stooks down here in the bog survives at all and us with no brains like them smart lads in Dublin.

DCon
12-04-2012, 11:46 PM
Sure 'tis a wonder us poor stooks down here in the bog survives at all and us with no brains like them smart lads in Dublin.

not what I'm saying and please do not twist my words to suit your argument

As a Limerick man, I hardly take the D4 are better attitude

What I am saying is that Cowen's rumoured and alleged intelligence was a myth in my eyes. If he was born and raised in Ballsbridge and was the exact same man I would have the exact same opinion

And it is clear to anyone that a solicitor in a Ballsbridge firm commands a higher salary than a solicitor in a Clara firm

unspecific
13-04-2012, 12:30 AM
As one of the comments in that link points out... it's all just talk at the moment unless action is taken.... I've voted for Labour in the past including the last GE but will never again. I'm afraid they are on the road destruction unless they return to some sense of what they are supposed to stand for...

Welcome to the forum EMUII :)

Yeah, I used to vote Labour(as the only working class party where I live) and told my friends and family to do the same. Though I knew they would sell-out; it doesn't make the totality of their betrayal any less shocking. Turns out this has been the entire history of the Labour Party. Talk out of the left-side of their mouth then prop up Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. Enough.

So, I've decided to get out and help the process of building a new working class party in the ULA. Labour have shown that betrayal's cannot go unpunished or they will do it again. In the hour of our need they do this? I'm going to do all I can to make sure they won't get another chance to sell us down the river again.

Baron von Biffo
13-04-2012, 08:51 AM
not what I'm saying and please do not twist my words to suit your argument

As a Limerick man, I hardly take the D4 are better attitude

What I am saying is that Cowen's rumoured and alleged intelligence was a myth in my eyes. If he was born and raised in Ballsbridge and was the exact same man I would have the exact same opinion

And it is clear to anyone that a solicitor in a Ballsbridge firm commands a higher salary than a solicitor in a Clara firm

I was commenting on the reference to Cowen as a 'country' solicitor. You're not the only one who's used that expression, I've seen it in the media too and it seems to me to reflect a disparaging attitude towards those of us who live outside the Pale. If you say that's not what you meant, fair enough.

BTW, his law firm was in Tullamore. ;)

Baron von Biffo
13-04-2012, 08:53 AM
What I am saying is that Cowen's rumoured and alleged intelligence was a myth in my eyes.

Mine too. I could never understand where the notion came from when I heard reporters speak of it.

DCon
13-04-2012, 08:55 AM
Mine too. I could never understand where the notion came from when I heard reporters speak of it.

I think it was a well rehearsed and executed spin exercise, most likely by Ahern who needed a useful fool.

Baron von Biffo
13-04-2012, 09:07 AM
I think it was a well rehearsed and executed spin exercise, most likely by Ahern who needed a useful fool.

We're on the same hymn sheet there.

Both Ahern and O'Malley, while they were still leaders of their parties, endorsed successors in a way that nobbled the prospects of any challenge to their choice. And they both picked duds.

The only way I can make sense of it is by imagining that they wanted their own reputations to be enhanced by having their party collapse once they were no longer at the helm.

DCon
13-04-2012, 09:12 AM
We're on the same hymn sheet there.

Both Ahern and O'Malley, while they were still leaders of their parties, endorsed successors in a way that nobbled the prospects of any challenge to their choice. And they both picked duds.

The only way I can make sense of it is by imagining that they wanted their own reputations to be enhanced by having their party collapse once they were no longer at the helm.

Also I think, it helped Ahern to have a "genius" as his number 2 as it created a sense of accountability without anything of the kind.

Cowen followed suit and appointed the only person he could find that was less intelligent than himself as Tanaiste

Apjp
13-04-2012, 09:34 AM
What would you have us do? Leave government in the hands of FG? Call an election and have a coalition of FG and FF. Or one with SF in it which would do exactly the same IMOP. Or should we have avoided government ?

It's stupid to stay in govt. just cause you think someone else would be even worse. The excuse of merc and perk hungry ministers I often heard it said.

Dr. FIVE
13-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Harry McGee coined the master of his brief line. He won journalist of the year that year aswell to I think.

Good times

Dr. FIVE
14-04-2012, 06:43 PM
http://files.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/90257332.jpg

Dr. FIVE
14-04-2012, 09:23 PM
Derek Nolan TD has just been declared elected as Party Chair. Keaveney topped poll, Nolan won on transfers.

Keaveney won, victory for the Joan camp, if such a thing exists

Baron von Biffo
14-04-2012, 09:39 PM
Derek Nolan TD has just been declared elected as Party Chair. Keaveney topped poll, Nolan won on transfers.

Keaveney won, victory for the Joan camp, if such a thing exists

So being thick as bottled pigsh!t is no bar to office in Lab then?

Greengoddess
14-04-2012, 11:24 PM
So being thick as bottled pigsh!t is no bar to office in Lab then?

Explain that .

Baron von Biffo
14-04-2012, 11:30 PM
Explain that .

Keaveney had a serious hissy fit over Flanagan's 'government death wish' tweet which he reckoned was sexist and cyber-bullying. I got the feeling listening to him that he was being sincere.

Dr. FIVE
14-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Coming out to bat for Joan was the story there Baron if you missed it.

Baron von Biffo
14-04-2012, 11:59 PM
Coming out to bat for Joan was the story there Baron if you missed it.

The pending party election wouldn't have far from his mind either. ;)

Whatever prompted his tantrum, if he believed what he said he's pretty dense.

Dr. FIVE
17-04-2012, 09:13 PM
Might start a thread on the youth branches being ********* actually

Griska
20-04-2012, 01:26 PM
209

Hmmmm.

priligybay
20-04-2012, 10:25 PM
I'm new here , nice thread!

Sam Lord
20-04-2012, 10:28 PM
I'm new here , nice thread!

What did you like about it?

Baron von Biffo
20-04-2012, 10:36 PM
What did you like about it?

Turing test opportunity chosen at random.

eamo
20-04-2012, 11:23 PM
I'm new here , nice thread!
1st post, and there ain't going to be a second one:D
Now that is what I call heavy bouncing, I presume s/he is a re-registered miscreant. or else we are all on a short ticket.:eek:

Baron von Biffo
20-04-2012, 11:30 PM
1st post, and there ain't going to be a second one:D
Now that is what I call heavy bouncing, I presume s/he is a re-registered miscreant. or else we are all on a short ticket.:eek:

There's a rash of new accounts with meaningless first posts of late. I've reported 2 or 3, including priligybay, as potential spammer/tosser IDs.

Griska
20-04-2012, 11:59 PM
1st post, and there ain't going to be a second one:D
Now that is what I call heavy bouncing, I presume s/he is a re-registered miscreant. or else we are all on a short ticket.:eek:

It was the politeness that was the problem.
We're stamping that nonsense right out.

DCon
24-04-2012, 07:36 AM
Fintan O'Toole pulls no punches in the Times today. At least we only have to wait a year for the Labour Ministers to find their voices..


Labour consoles itself with the usual martyrology of unpopular governing parties: people don’t like us because we’re inflicting necessary pain. The truth is that people don’t like Labour because it is inflicting pain unequally.

For the first time in its 100-year history, it is actively increasing inequality in Irish society – and if Labour is not about equality, it is about nothing at all.

Labour is, in Pat Rabbitte’s startlingly apt phrase last week, “policing” the troika’s Irish policy.

The policy is a pantomime horse operated by drunks moving in two directions at once. It protects the existing distribution of privilege in Irish society – literally at all costs, but it appeals to a rhetoric of equally shared sacrifice. If Labour was going to become the troika’s policeman, the least it had to do was to inject some reality into that rhetoric.


The nationalisation of private banking debt turns the whole idea of commonality on its head. Instead of meaning that private interests should be subordinated to the common good, it is made to mean exactly the opposite – that the public interest should be enslaved to private benefit.


At first, the depression did make Ireland a somewhat more equal place. In 2006, the top 20 per cent earned five times more than the bottom 20 per cent. By 2009, this multiple dropped to 4.3. But in 2010, the gap increased quite dramatically, to a multiple of 5.3.

What we can see here is that after the initial shock, the most privileged groups in society have been able to regroup and consolidate their privilege.

The biggest testament to this strength is that the Labour Party, founded a century ago to place economic equality at the heart of Irish life, has become an instrument of this consolidation of privilege. It is a breathtaking fact that since Labour came to power, public policy has been used, not to roll back privilege but to increase it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0424/1224315104840.html

Sam Lord
24-04-2012, 01:03 PM
I enjoyed the article. He went through them for a short cut.



the Plough and the Stars of Connolly and Larkin is now the Kow-tow and the Squad Cars.


:)

Dr. FIVE
25-04-2012, 09:39 PM
How to behave at a party you are not invited to
(http://ireland.marxist.com/ireland/politics/8446-how-to-behave-at-a-party-you-are-not-invited-to)

PaddyJoe
26-04-2012, 05:24 PM
Labour mayor of Tuam resigns in a bit of a strop. Calls Noonan a moron as she slams the door on the way out:)
http://www.thejournal.ie/mayor-of-tuam-quits-labour-over-county-council-shafting-430753-Apr2012/

Baron von Biffo
26-04-2012, 05:48 PM
Labour mayor of Tuam resigns in a bit of a strop. Calls Noonan a moron as she slams the door on the way out:)
http://www.thejournal.ie/mayor-of-tuam-quits-labour-over-county-council-shafting-430753-Apr2012/

And this happened on Colm Keavney's patch.

Readers will recall that Keaveney had a tantrum himself because Charlie Flanagan had the temerity to criticise Joan Burton. The heart of his argument being that any criticism of our Minister for Lifestyle Choices is de facto sexism.

The Mayor of Tuam is one Mary Loftus, a woman. The person who got the job she felt entitled to was one Sean Cuniffe, a man. :eek:

DCon
30-04-2012, 08:48 PM
Good piece here: http://www.politico.ie/irish-politics/8514-labours-fears-of-being-unelectable-will-soon-be-realised.html


From "Gilmore for Taoiseach" and 17% support in February 2011, Labour have suffered a catastrophic drop to 7% in the opinion polls - a drop of some 60%.

They will of course point to the fact that they have been part of a government that has administered some exceedingly harsh medicine since their election, and they would be entirely right in blaming the slide in their support on this factor.

But Fine Gael have only suffered a 4% drop in that time, despite being the architects of much of the misery foisted on the Irish people, both in terms of the troika deal and their ideological opposition to state intervention and ownership.

Labour's primary problem is not that it has delivered austerity; it is that they have delivered austerity having essentially promised not to do so in their election manifesto.

Baron von Biffo
01-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Plank is covering the Labour party now. Guest Niamh Breathnach summing the whole thing up by telling us that men are evil.

Baron von Biffo
01-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Kieran Allen, unusually for a left wing commentator, is splitting hairs about petty pedantic points.

Baron von Biffo
01-05-2012, 10:36 AM
Plank played two clips that ought to be very embarrassing to Lab - The Bunny attacking Pat Carey and Gilmore's "Labour's way or Frankfurt's way". Breathnach not at all discommoded by the subsequent volte face.

goatstoe
01-05-2012, 10:38 AM
Just turned it on there. He just played "Frankfurts way or Labours way" speech. It was actually a great speech, it's a pity Gilmore didn't follow through on that speech and lead the opposition. It would have been the making of the Labour party in this country.

Is that Niamh Breathnach on the PK show? she's talking awful nonsense.

Baron von Biffo
01-05-2012, 10:40 AM
Just turned it on there. He just played "Frankfurts way or Labours way" speech. It was actually a great speech, it's a pity Gilmore didn't follow through on that speech and lead the opposition. It would have been the making of the Labour party in this country.

Is that Niamh Breathnach on the PK show? she's talking awful nonsense.

It is. She is.

goatstoe
01-05-2012, 10:43 AM
The Greek chorus indeed, you said it Niamh.

Baron von Biffo
01-05-2012, 10:43 AM
If you don't want to be called a hypocrite Niamh, you need to leave the party that has given hypocrisy a bad name.

DCon
01-05-2012, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=goatstoe;244815]a pity Gilmore didn't follow through on that speech and lead the opposition. It would have been the making of the Labour party in this country.

QUOTE]

No personal gain for Comrade Gilmore in choosing that road. He wanted the maximum financial rewards from a career languishing in the Dail

unspecific
06-05-2012, 05:24 AM
Here is a wonderful letter addressed to the Liberal Democrats by author China Mieville. Simply replace references of Libdems with Labour and Tories with Fine Gael for useage here. Well done the author.

http://chinamieville.net/post/1361955242/letter-to-a-progressive-liberal-democrat


Letter to a progressive Liberal Democrat
So it’s war. We knew it would be.

Obviously, you don’t ask the Tories how they can do this. They, streetfighters of long-standing, the current vogue for simpering head-boy bonhomie notwithstanding, are clear about their aims, interests and concomitant attacks.

Nor is this message addressed to Vince Cable or the wolf-eyed replicant Clegg. Whatever theatrics of choicelessness and discomfort the former occasionally insinuates, he, good Orange Booker, knows just what he’s up to. And the latter dispenses even with the mummery.

But you - you’re one of those Liberal Democrats who takes seriously a commitment to some kind of progressive agenda. You’re another thing. One doesn’t have to share all your politics to believe you sincere. So it has to be asked of you: WTF?

We know that the cuts are massively regressive. We know this is a hecatomb of welfare. We know the arts are being savaged in a philistine rampage. We know that all the gorge-raising horseshit about being All In It Together™ is a meaningless tic. So you, like other left-wing LibDems (LWLDs), know - know - that you’re propping up an economic onslaught by those who think it their birthright to rule in wealth against the mass of working people.

When it’s obvious that there are other ways of saving money that don’t punish the poor, are you happy with what you’re doing?

When the entire agenda about the necessity of the cuts is not only an invention, but a not-very-convincing one, is it mere economic illiteracy that keeps you quiescent?

When it’s not just radical, but eminently mainstream, even neoliberal economists who are stressing that if your aim is to reestablish the British economy this is economic gibberish, are you comfortable?

Sure, some Tories are ******* idiots - but a lot aren’t. They know that these measures, far from salvaging it, might very well break the economy. And that is, for them, a risk worth taking, because either way, something is gained: a transfer of power, the finishing of the Thatcherite revolution, a recomposition of class strength. And if the cost of that is mass immiseration, and even the stagnation of the national economy, so be it.

So the question for you is, just how comfortable are you being complicit with baying class thuggery?

What are you getting out of this? How many pieces of silver? It profiteth a person nothing if they exchange their immortal soul for the world, but for - what? Minister of State for Children and Families? The same ones you’re taking money from?

And even if you follow the Auton Lothario of Sheffield Hallam in thinking that morals are for mortals, that concern at the antidemocratic imposition of an agenda the vast majority of those who voted for you would be appalled at is quaint, there’s also the question of strategy. If kneecapping the welfare state does not, in fact, **** the sclerotic economy into anything approaching life (and why should it?), then the LibDems - you - are finished. You face annihilation.

Even cynically, is it worth it? To be treated, for two terms, minimum, as the scum of British politics? The most craven power-licking integrity-less liars of Parliament? Not even Tories but Tory-enablers? Do you honestly think that the majority of the electorate who supported you (in deeply misguided protest) would be willing to give you their vote again? Unless it was to **** on it, put it in a paper bag, set fire to it and post it through your door?

Really?

Would you not feel better being able to sleep at night? Where’s your line in the sand?

Walk.

Dr. FIVE
26-05-2012, 02:36 AM
Interesting (or not) comment on CLR tonight (http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/those-labour-posters/)


This website used to be worthy reading and analysis for Labour members. WBS’s analysis on things like the 2008 US Presidential Campaign was actually much better than most things you read in the papers and media. Now we just get a lot of anti-Labour diatribe.Of course I will be accused of vitriol and cynicism but I just want to point out I used to actually read this website for pleasure.


While I still have some sympathy for the Labour membership you do kinda hope they realise that it's not the line on CLR or elsewhere that has changed but...
Pat Rabbitte thinks otherwise of course but for our and their own sake I hope the siege mentality hasn't sunk right to the bottom yet. Literally all the Fianna Fáil hallmarks after a year in is not good for Ireland

DCon
27-05-2012, 09:44 AM
Any Labour supporters care to answer Kerrigan's question?


Does no one in the Labour Party care about whether they have A) an untrustworthy leader, or B) an honest leader under foul attack from a foreign power?

The lack of curiosity about this -- from the Taoiseach, the Cabinet, the Labour Party hierarchy and the wider Labour Party -- is astonishing. Or, it would be, if it wasn't entirely in character.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/gene-kerrigan-the-sad-truth-is-enda-kennys-a-chicken-3119592.html

Binn Beal
27-05-2012, 10:10 AM
The Labour Party exists because it looked like a reflection of the Labour Party in Britain and was promoted in the early Free State as a necessary part of a parliamentary democracy. "Look, we have workers too!"

In Britain it is a mass organisation drawing support from the industrial working class. Here the ILP is, and always was, nothing more than a small group of shrewd, self-interested, political operators.

What little political base they had has been cut from under them by their own sell-out policies and they are being replaced by Sinn Fein, in the unions, in the housing estates, in the media and in the political arena generally.

Like the Green Party, they are the only ones not to see that they are past their sell-by date.

Dr. FIVE
11-06-2012, 08:20 PM
Senator Lorraine Higgins denies move to Fianna Fáil, lol.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/26173-labour-senator-lorraine-higgins-denies-move-ff



Political sources have told the Connacht Tribune that a series of meetings have taken place in recent weeks between Fianna Fáil officials and the Athenry-based barrister – who was nominated to the Seanad by party leader and Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore.

Sources said that talks were brokered by an FF activist as the party was keen to have a strong female candidate when the ‘gender quotas’ are introduced for the next General Election – women must make up 30% of party candidates by the next election.

However, Senator Higgins has denied that any meetings had taken place with Fianna Fáil, and said she would be happy for her name to go forward on the Labour ticket for Galway East in 2016

It's been two each for FF/FG in Galway east since forever until Keavney took the first Labour seat that I can remember last year. Would be questionable if he or any Labour candidate can retain it.

Goldhawk has speculated a few times on Keavney being the Joan camp and Higgins the Gilmore. The Senator being the favoured candidate next time out. Less of a troublemaker as far as the leadership is concerned though defecting to Fianna Fáil would be a real kick in the teeth for the Labour party, you would assume anyway..

C. Flower
11-06-2012, 09:27 PM
Here is a wonderful letter addressed to the Liberal Democrats by author China Mieville. Simply replace references of Libdems with Labour and Tories with Fine Gael for useage here. Well done the author.

http://chinamieville.net/post/1361955242/letter-to-a-progressive-liberal-democrat

Yes, lines are being drawn, and habit, family affiliation, and fears of the unknown are not enough reason to keep on doing damage to the people of one's country.

eamo
11-06-2012, 10:29 PM
Thanks for posting that unspec715.
powerful.


http://chinamieville.net/post/1361955242/letter-to-a-progressive-liberal-democrat

That "rejectamentalist manefesto" blog looks like it is worth following.
here is something else from it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/half-of-detroit-s-streetlights-may-go-out-as-city-shrinks.html

Some time after the fall of the USSR national Geographic magazine had an insert which was called something like "lights of the world"
It was an amalgamation of satellite photos taken at night, it was impressive. You could even see the lights from trawlers on fishing grounds.
A note at the bottom of the chart stated the only part of the world getting darker was the land which was the USSR. Seems it is now happening in the USA.

DCon
14-06-2012, 08:59 AM
The chairperson of the Labour Party wants unelected members of the LP to decide on a new bailout.

Shades of the Greens


The terms of a second troika bailout must be approved by Labour’s grassroots activists before the Government signs up to it, party chairman Colm Keaveney said.

Such a move would create tension within the Coalition — and could trigger a Labour exit from the Government — but Mr Keaveney warned his party would need a democratic mandate to push through a second austerity deal.

One senior Labour source said a ballot of the party’s 8,000 members on the issue would come down to an "in-out" decision on remaining in Government.

In remarks that will provoke fury among Coalition partners, the Labour chairman said Fine Gael took a "certain degree of comfort" in the policies imposed by the troika.



A Labour source present at the meeting said: "This will be an in-or-out of Government vote for the Labour Party and everybody knows that. We had no say in the referendum just held and got kicked all over the place by the likes of Sinn Féin."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/labour-could-quit-over-vote-on-new-bailout-197366.html

Baron von Biffo
14-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Keaveney on News at One now saying, "If we can bring the Labour party with us we can bring the country". Shades of Dev looking into his heart to see what Ireland wanted.

DCon
14-06-2012, 01:27 PM
Will Gilmore have his Tanaiste pension in the bag before any vote?

Dr. FIVE
14-06-2012, 01:27 PM
"If we can bring the Labour party with us we can bring the country".

Are we lapsing into "national movement" territory here or something

Dr. FIVE
14-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Goldhawk says Eric Byrne told a PLP meeting that two 'cancerous' (and unnamed) TDs were undermining the party :eek:

While Eamon thinks the single biggest task facing the party is to defeat Sinn Féin.

rather then, you know, Fine Gael or themselves..

Baron von Biffo
14-06-2012, 08:43 PM
Are we lapsing into "national movement" territory here or something

Come 2015 and Lab will be in bowel movement territory.

loopys
15-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Goldhawk says Eric Byrne told a PLP meeting that two 'cancerous' (and unnamed) TDs were undermining the party :eek:


Hmmm - 2 out of 5 choices as far as I can see

Eamon, Brendan, Joan, Pat, Ruairi

C. Flower
15-06-2012, 02:11 PM
Goldhawk says Eric Byrne told a PLP meeting that two 'cancerous' (and unnamed) TDs were undermining the party :eek:

While Eamon thinks the single biggest task facing the party is to defeat Sinn Féin.

rather then, you know, Fine Gael or themselves..

Eamon seems to be revelling in his role as temp. head of OSCE, touring "troublespots" outside the EU.

disability student
15-06-2012, 02:14 PM
Eamon seems to be revelling in his role as temp. head of OSCE, touring "troublespots" outside the EU.

Power craze entering his head:D

Dr. FIVE
15-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Interesting comment from that examiner piece during the week with one deputy saying a midterm conference would "reconnect the member with the Cabinet member."

Dr. FIVE
28-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Solicitor's being fired of within the party. Stand off between Keaveney and Gilmore.
Poor Eamon is losing control of the Party says Goldhawk

C. Flower
28-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Solicitor's being fired of within the party. Stand off between Keaveney and Gilmore.
Poor Eamon is losing control of the Party says Goldhawk

Fascinating. What is the dispute ?

Dr. FIVE
28-06-2012, 01:48 PM
Solicitor's letters being fired off within the party sorry :)

Surrounds a meeting in efforts to stop Keveney being elected party chair which backfired on the leadership and ended up contributing to his election. Keaveney's camp wanted to make a complaint about the general secretary and legal officer and their role in the meeting which prompted the general secretary Ita McAuliffe to fire off a solicitor's letter to Keaveney which he it back with further legal threats. All this led to a big scrap between Gilmore and Keaveney at the party executive meeting where Gilmore received little support.

Gilmore's candidate for vice-chair later lost a vote to become vice-chair 30-13!

Gilmore rebuffed by both the party executive and central council

Baron von Biffo
28-06-2012, 09:59 PM
Maybe we should be asking who's behind it?

Dr. FIVE
28-06-2012, 10:05 PM
Talking to Phoenix or undermining Gilmore? (one in the same obviously)

Baron von Biffo
28-06-2012, 10:11 PM
Talking to Phoenix or undermining Gilmore? (one in the same obviously)

If someone is trying to oust Gilmore it must be with a view to succeeding him.

C. Flower
10-07-2012, 02:07 PM
Solicitor's letters being fired off within the party sorry :)

Surrounds a meeting in efforts to stop Keveney being elected party chair which backfired on the leadership and ended up contributing to his election. Keaveney's camp wanted to make a complaint about the general secretary and legal officer and their role in the meeting which prompted the general secretary Ita McAuliffe to fire off a solicitor's letter to Keaveney which he it back with further legal threats. All this led to a big scrap between Gilmore and Keaveney at the party executive meeting where Gilmore received little support.

Gilmore's candidate for vice-chair later lost a vote to become vice-chair 30-13!

Gilmore rebuffed by both the party executive and central council

There have been a lot of general grumblings about Gilmore being "away too much" - the Foreign Affairs gig does come with political risks attached.
Keaveney has been digging in to the Constituencies, apparently.

I would love to see this as a battle between real Labour and shadow FG Labour, but it's hard to square this with Keaveney's 600,000 bank debt.




A SENIOR Labour TD is facing a High Court action by the State's most aggressive bank as it seeks to recover a six-figure loan for a property deal that collapsed.

Galway East TD Colm Keaveney, who intervened spectacularly in the Kevin Cardiff affair last week, is being pursued by ACC - the bank that brought down Liam Carroll and may bankrupt Independent TD Mick Wallace.

Cato
10-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Eh ... the debt as reported in the Daily Mail in November of last year was €600,000 (which is six figure sum!) €20m would be a eight figure sum.

C. Flower
10-07-2012, 02:33 PM
Eh ... the debt as reported in the Daily Mail in November of last year was €600,000 (which is six figure sum!) €20m would be a eight figure sum.

Thanks for the correction - I've amended the post.

I was confusing his debt with Mick Wallace's.

http://business.highbeam.com/4344/article-1G1-273476049/ireland-toughest-bank-pursuing-top-labour-td-over-development

€600,000 is a mere bagatelle. He would probably be treated better by the banks if he owed a lot more.

Maximus
10-07-2012, 06:32 PM
Well it was Labour that stopped a single party Fine Gael government with their pleas in the last week of election 2011 of 'Fine Gael would cut child benefit' 'Ireland needs a balanced government to be fair' so they pretty much have themselves to blame. Bet Labour wish they were in opposition now. I'd say they'd probably be in the mid to high 30s in the polls. Looking at low 10s in the next election and they've given Fiannna Fáil a second chance, had Labour gone into oppositon to a single party FG government it would have killed Fianna Fáil entirely.

C. Flower
11-07-2012, 09:11 AM
Well it was Labour that stopped a single party Fine Gael government with their pleas in the last week of election 2011 of 'Fine Gael would cut child benefit' 'Ireland needs a balanced government to be fair' so they pretty much have themselves to blame. Bet Labour wish they were in opposition now. I'd say they'd probably be in the mid to high 30s in the polls. Looking at low 10s in the next election and they've given Fiannna Fáil a second chance, had Labour gone into oppositon to a single party FG government it would have killed Fianna Fáil entirely.

With the rare exception of Sinn Fein, who are working to a longer term strategy, I think "Jam today" is the motto of practising politicians in Ireland.

DCon
11-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Well it was Labour that stopped a single party Fine Gael government with their pleas in the last week of election 2011 of 'Fine Gael would cut child benefit' 'Ireland needs a balanced government to be fair' so they pretty much have themselves to blame. Bet Labour wish they were in opposition now. I'd say they'd probably be in the mid to high 30s in the polls. Looking at low 10s in the next election and they've given Fiannna Fáil a second chance, had Labour gone into oppositon to a single party FG government it would have killed Fianna Fáil entirely.


Pat and Eamonn will have their enhanced pensions (both were only Ministers of State in the Rainbow) after this government runs its course and can sail off into the sunset.

No chance they were going to turn that down.

PaddyJoe
14-07-2012, 01:11 AM
A bit of jostling going on for seats at the constitutional convention according to Miriam Lord. It seems that Alex White has already been alloted the leadership of the Labour delegates so that leaves six positions. All should be clear by next Thursday when the Oireachtas heads off for the summer.

The anointing of Eamon’s white-haired boy has rattled the ranks of Labour’s ambitious. Particularly as Alex, as chairman of the Oireachtas finance committee, is also being talked up by some as the man best suited to chair the inquiry into the bank guarantee.
But it has horrified those Labour TDs hoping to pick up a ministry when Eamon gets around to a reshuffle. The big constitutional convention job was seen as a major indicator of whom he favours. Thursday’s barbecue may yet end up as the kerfuffle before the reshuffle.
We understand the candidates for the six remaining seats include deputies Joanna Tuffy, Ciara Conway, Anne Ferris, Aodhán Ó Riordáin, Robert Dowds, John Lyons and Michael McCarty; and Senators Aideen Hayden, Lorraine Higgins and Ivana Bacik.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0714/1224320064730.html#.UAC0uedj7jY.twitter

PaddyJoe
19-07-2012, 05:46 PM
Nice bit of work from TV3 there on the 5.30 news. Leads with Gilmore saying he only heard about the Cathal McGee resignation from the media as he stands beside Kenny at a press conference this afternoon. Cue Ursula Halligan with a few barbed questions to Kenny on 'communication' and Enda doing a rabbit caught in the headlights impression as Gilmore watches him squirm.
One of those big time cringe moments for government handlers:D

Dr. FIVE
19-07-2012, 07:54 PM
One of those big time cringe moments for government handlers

aka a public appearance

Greengoddess
19-07-2012, 09:58 PM
Issue of abortion on Prime Time. This could be a big problem for Labour. I personally would have a major problem with reneging on this. Professionally and politically.

Victor Meldrew
19-07-2012, 10:24 PM
Issue of abortion on Prime Time. This could be a big problem for Labour. I personally would have a major problem with reneging on this. Professionally and politically.

I'm also disgusted at the manner and conduct of the 15 FG deputies who think they can demand to review and debate the expert committee findings in advance of it going to cabinet. That one of them is a min-state shows breathtaking contempt for their labour cabinet colleagues, and smacks of "know your place"


Despite being a Blueshirt, I am utterly sickened by this.

goatstoe
23-07-2012, 03:32 PM
Is the row between Shorthall and Reilly a sign that this government will end with Labour pulling out. How long more do Gilmore and Rabbitte need to stay in to ensure they'll get minister's pensions.

If Labour want to remain in anyway intact as a party after the next GE they will have to manufacture a credible exit strategy. Hogan and Reilly among others will provide them with ample opportunities to bail out the gap.

Baron von Biffo
23-07-2012, 03:57 PM
Is the row between Shorthall and Reilly a sign that this government will end with Labour pulling out. How long more do Gilmore and Rabbitte need to stay in to ensure they'll get minister's pensions.

If Labour want to remain in anyway intact as a party after the next GE they will have to manufacture a credible exit strategy. Hogan and Reilly among others will provide them with ample opportunities to bail out the gap.

Shorthall heaving the toys out of the pram probably shouldn't be interpreted as anything more significant than her difficulty dealing with men who disagree with her.

goatstoe
23-07-2012, 04:40 PM
Shorthall heaving the toys out of the pram probably shouldn't be interpreted as anything more significant than her difficulty dealing with men who disagree with her.

Looks like they don't get on on a personal level, and with Reilly under pressure with other stuff, Shorthall can't resist twisting the knife.

DCon
08-08-2012, 08:00 AM
trouble in paradise?


THREATENED cuts to student grants for thousands of families in farming and business have sparked a major rift in the Coalition.

Fine Gael backbenchers are organising a mass revolt against Labour's Education Minister Ruairi Quinn, who is currently reviewing the grants system.

Farmers fear their land will be included for the first time in a new type of means test for student grants. Thousands of small shop and business owners also fear their premises will be included. They are currently only assessed on actual income from their farm or business.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-revolt-on-plan-to-hit-student-grants-for-farmers-3194301.html

Greengoddess
08-08-2012, 09:10 AM
trouble in paradise?



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fg-revolt-on-plan-to-hit-student-grants-for-farmers-3194301.html
What on earth is this fuss about? Quinn has in fact not said much at all about this. I expect much more trouble about Croke Park. Maybe FG will be the rebels in this budget.

DCon
08-08-2012, 09:59 AM
What on earth is this fuss about? Quinn has in fact not said much at all about this. I expect much more trouble about Croke Park. Maybe FG will be the rebels in this budget.

Jostling by TD's to gain favour with their Constituents no doubt.

Baron von Biffo
08-08-2012, 11:00 AM
Lab's crank chairman is trying to protect his party's right flank from ULA encroachment by looking to defer the introduction of a proper property tax.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/keaveney-government-should-wait-on-property-tax-562202.html

Baron von Biffo
08-08-2012, 01:08 PM
Keaveney on property tax and education grants in a few minutes on RTE News at One.

Baron von Biffo
08-08-2012, 01:11 PM
Am I understanding him properly here - He's calling for a market value based RPT with some system of regional bands?

Baron von Biffo
08-08-2012, 01:14 PM
A fairer way to change the means test would be to use an average income over the previous 5 years (with appropriate regard for inflation) for the self employed. That would make it far more difficult to manipulate income.

Baron von Biffo
09-08-2012, 09:09 AM
Ruairí Quinn has got himself into serious trouble this time. Scourge of the Fornicators, Mad Mish is on his case over his plans to review education grants. :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-fg-tds-revolt-against-quinn-student-grant-review-3195125.html

DCon
09-08-2012, 09:11 AM
What on earth is this fuss about? Quinn has in fact not said much at all about this. I expect much more trouble about Croke Park. Maybe FG will be the rebels in this budget.

more rebels


The backlash has been prompted by Mr Quinn's plan to change the means test for the third-level grant -- which could see farmland and business assets being included for the first time.

In Mr Kenny's Mayo constituency, Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin warned against including valuable capital assets like farmland, which were often not worth a "red cent" in terms of income.

"If income isn't coming in, people are going to be unfairly disadvantaged. I wouldn't be supporting any move that unfairly hits at farmers."

And fellow Fine Gael Mayo TD John O'Mahony said that Mr Quinn had been talking about the need for "fairness" in the system for assessing student grants.

"In my opinion, fairness is allowing eligibility for grants to be based on actual income. I would be very much against changing the system," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-fg-tds-revolt-against-quinn-student-grant-review-3195125.html


How will these rebels promote a property tax if they are only in favour of including income in grant calculations?

goatstoe
09-08-2012, 09:58 AM
Lab's crank chairman is trying to protect his party's right flank from ULA encroachment by looking to defer the introduction of a proper property tax.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/keaveney-government-should-wait-on-property-tax-562202.html

All he is saying in that short piece is that when the government bring in the property tax that they take their time and make sure they get it right. Is there something wrong with that?

goatstoe
09-08-2012, 10:39 AM
Ruairí Quinn has got himself into serious trouble this time. Scourge of the Fornicators, Mad Mish is on his case over his plans to review education grants. :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-fg-tds-revolt-against-quinn-student-grant-review-3195125.html


Good move from Quinn, so long as he sticks with it and follows through with implementation. Vital that the rebel redneck Fine Gaelers are faced down on this.

Baron von Biffo
09-08-2012, 09:12 PM
All he is saying in that short piece is that when the government bring in the property tax that they take their time and make sure they get it right. Is there something wrong with that?

The word 'defer', when used by a politician, means 'Let's never speak of this again'.

Baron von Biffo
09-08-2012, 09:21 PM
Good move from Quinn, so long as he sticks with it and follows through with implementation. Vital that the rebel redneck Fine Gaelers are faced down on this.

If we start to measure farmers on the hayshed or the shopkeepers on the fridge full of choc-ices, why not include the value of the mechanic's toolbox?

Measuring income, including income from sale of assets if applicable, but doing it under a fairer system than we have now is the way to go. At the moment it's open to the many of self employed to artificially reduce their income for the measured year so that they qualify for grants. PAYE workers can't pull those sort of stunts so they get screwed.

If the means test measured an inflation adjusted average for the previous 5 years it would be almost impossible for that sort of crookedness to succeed.

DCon
31-08-2012, 07:56 AM
Rabbitte is throwing out the pre Budget bargaining threats.

He must be a poor Poker player as everyone knows the Government won't be allowed split until himself and Eamo have their full Ministerial Pension in their back pockets


The Minister for Communications says it’s not guaranteed that the Government will survive December’s Budget.

Minister Pat Rabbitte says the Government’s odds of lasting past the Budget were ‘middling to good’.

He says the Budget is likely to be the most difficult – and that the upcoming term may also be the most challenging for the Government.

Minister Pat Rabbitte says Ireland will be closing in on economic recovery after the Budget – but only if the Government survives.

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/news/pat-rabbitte-not-guaranteed-government-will-survive-decembers-budget/

DCon
31-08-2012, 09:54 AM
Rabbitte is throwing out the pre Budget bargaining threats.

He must be a poor Poker player as everyone knows the Government won't be allowed split until himself and Eamo have their full Ministerial Pension in their back pockets



http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/news/pat-rabbitte-not-guaranteed-government-will-survive-decembers-budget/

Although, Pat must know how keen FG are to privatise State assets off to their friends, so maybe threatening an election is his way of ensuring he gets the full Pension

Bluff or Double Bluff

Pat is sitting on a pair of 6's. Enda has a pair of 7's.

C. Flower
05-09-2012, 02:11 PM
A Councillor has resigned from the Labour Party over the health cuts.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0903/1224323535869.html

DCon
06-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Gilmore is on CNBC now.

Waffling to beat the band.

Ireland needs to restore our reputation and move on, no point dwelling on the past..

PaddyJoe
11-09-2012, 11:50 PM
So who are the Labour Senators boycotting the Carton House think in?

DCon
12-09-2012, 08:12 AM
Gilmore says the difficult Budgets ill end when we exit the IMF programme. Is he delusional or lying?


Mr Gilmore said the party was elected to do a job and it was going to carry out the job of getting Ireland out of the EU/ECB/IMF bailout.

The Labour leader was speaking to journalists before the start of his party's think-in in Maynooth, Co Kildare.

Mr Gilmore said that after five years of crisis, people are feeling worn out, frustrated and worried about what is next.

He told Labour TDs and Senators that by pushing ahead now, it means the country can exit the IMF programme and people can be confident that the series of difficult budgets has come to an end.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0911/property-tax-government.html

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 08:21 AM
I thought we had more budgets like this. What can it mean? Of course we still have the 2014 one.......
Where did this thing about boycotting senators come from?

DCon
12-09-2012, 08:25 AM
I thought we had more budgets like this. What can it mean? Of course we still have the 2014 one.......
Where did this thing about boycotting senators come from?

Of course we do, unless Gilmore's plan is to borrow 20 Billion a year forever. Or maybe just until he retires..

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 08:27 AM
Of course we do, unless Gilmore's plan is to borrow 20 Billion a year forever. Or maybe just until he retires..
Yes, but it might be a sign of something. Put it this way, if the only way to do this is to write down our debts ........

C. Flower
12-09-2012, 09:27 AM
I thought we had more budgets like this. What can it mean? Of course we still have the 2014 one.......
Where did this thing about boycotting senators come from?


He told Labour TDs and Senators that by pushing ahead now, it means the country can exit the IMF programme and people can be confident that the series of difficult budgets has come to an end.

This is an appalling lie. It leaves out not only 2014 but the subsequent further austerity required to meet to terms we voted for in the Stability Treaty.

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 09:35 AM
This is an appalling lie. It leaves out not only 2014 but the subsequent further austerity required to meet to terms we voted for in the Stability Treaty.

Eamon isn't given to outright lies. It may me more interesting or else wishful thinking.

DCon
12-09-2012, 09:38 AM
Eamon isn't given to outright lies.

You're kidding right?

The man would say anything to keep the Coalition intact until his full Ministerial Pension is secured. Anything.

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 09:43 AM
You're kidding right?

The man would say anything to keep the Coalition intact until his full Ministerial Pension is secured. Anything.
I am serious. This for one, is just too risky to have said for no reason . It was a written speech too.
The only way it could happen is if we have a debt write down. But again there is confusion.

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 09:45 AM
This ting about pensions is not as relevant as people think either.

DCon
12-09-2012, 09:47 AM
This ting about pensions is not as relevant as people think either.

Come back to me the week after full pensions have been acquired.

By my reckoning there will be an immediate change in rhetoric from the Labour hierarchy.

DCon
12-09-2012, 09:48 AM
I am serious. This for one, is just too risky to have said for no reason . It was a written speech too.
The only way it could happen is if we have a debt write down. But again there is confusion.

Where is the risk? Gilmore will be retiring soon

jmcc
12-09-2012, 10:52 AM
This ting about pensions is not as relevant as people think either.The people get the idea from Gilmore, Rabbitte and the rest that they, the people, are not relevant.

Regards...jmcc

Baron von Biffo
12-09-2012, 11:13 AM
Come back to me the week after full pensions have been acquired.

By my reckoning there will be an immediate change in rhetoric from the Labour hierarchy.

I'm with GG on the lying and the pensions.

Politicians are not above using our reluctance to carefully assess what they say to create false impressions but they very seldom lie. The risk of being caught in a lie is just too great.

As for the pensions - If they were driven by money then most of them wouldn't have gone into politics in the first place. There's far greater rewards to be had elsewhere without having to put up with the sort of ***** politicians have to deal with.

DCon
12-09-2012, 11:21 AM
As for the pensions - If they were driven by money then most of them wouldn't have gone into politics in the first place. There's far greater rewards to be had elsewhere without having to put up with the sort of ***** politicians have to deal with.

Possibly, although unlikely for a lot of them as they are not the brightest (would Brian Cowen be earning 150K a year for lying in bed today if he had chosen a different career? Would Bertie?).

Also, the skillset required to be a good Politician is completely different to the skillset required to be successful in alternate jobs.

But once in Politics it is natural for them to try to maximise their remuneration.

Gilmore has reached the pinnacle of his career (he will never be Taoiseach).

Once he has his full Pension he will be on his bike. You can doubt it, but it will happen

Baron von Biffo
12-09-2012, 11:38 AM
Possibly, although unlikely for a lot of them as they are not the brightest (would Brian Cowen be earning 150K a year for lying in bed today if he had chosen a different career? Would Bertie?).

Also, the skillset required to be a good Politician is completely different to the skillset required to be successful in alternate jobs.

But once in Politics it is natural for them to try to maximise their remuneration.

Gilmore has reached the pinnacle of his career (he will never be Taoiseach).

Once he has his full Pension he will be on his bike. You can doubt it, but it will happen

I think that both Ahern and Cowen and indeed most ministers/former ministers would have earned substantially more outside of politics. At senior levels in business, bonuses and pension contributions alone are multiples of ministerial pay.

Getting to the very top in business is probably more to do with political/people skills than technical aptitude. Just look at the useless clots that were on 7 figure salaries for running the banks into the ground.

PaddyJoe
12-09-2012, 12:12 PM
I thought we had more budgets like this. What can it mean? Of course we still have the 2014 one.......
Where did this thing about boycotting senators come from?

A number of Labour senators boycotted the two-day meeting at the 12,000-acre estate, once home to Lord FitzGerald and host to renowned sports teams like Real Madrid and the Ireland rugby team, because they did not want to be seen to be living it up on taxpayers’ money.

James Heffernan, Denis Landy and John Kelly said the five-star location was “all wrong” given the economic situation.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0912/breaking21.html

PaddyJoe
12-09-2012, 12:26 PM
This is an appalling lie. It leaves out not only 2014 but the subsequent further austerity required to meet to terms we voted for in the Stability Treaty.

He'd better have a look at the latest IMF report. In their best case scenario gross government debt will peak at 119% of GDP in 2013 and gradually reduce to 108% by 2017.
However, in a low growth environment in the medium term of 0.5% per year gross debt would rise to 129% by 2017.
Completely unsustainable.
See page 13 here:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12264.pdf

fluffybiscuits
12-09-2012, 03:03 PM
http://www.shannonside.ie/news-details.php?nid=13426

Labour think in at Carton House...

http://updatetechnology.ie/imgs/projects/hotel_and_leisure/carton_house_1.jpg

Course its miles from anywhere so they cant be ambused with protests....

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 03:09 PM
He'd better have a look at the latest IMF report. In their best case scenario gross government debt will peak at 119% of GDP in 2013 and gradually reduce to 108% by 2017.
However, in a low growth environment in the medium term of 0.5% per year gross debt would rise to 129% by 2017.
Completely unsustainable.
See page 13 here:
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2012/cr12264.pdf
He seemingly meant that none would be as hard as this budget. I don't know if the speech was transcribed verbatim or if someone wrote it.

DCon
12-09-2012, 03:45 PM
He seemingly meant that none would be as hard as this budget. I don't know if the speech was transcribed verbatim or if someone wrote it.

maybe he meant as hard for Labour. i.e. they will not be involved in the next one!

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 03:54 PM
maybe he meant as hard for Labour. i.e. they will not be involved in the next one!
Bold!

Richardbouvet
12-09-2012, 04:24 PM
I thought Carton was a daft place for Labour to choose in current circumstances. I suspect it was Stagg's idea.

In any case Gilmore, according to the Irish Times has also "... laughed off claims from Labour MEP Nessa Childers that the party could break up, with a splinter group forming another party. “That’s news to me,” said the Tánaiste. Leinster MEP Ms Childers had earlier claimed she could see tensions forming in the party and would not be surprised by a split.

“In terms of the Labour Party, there is a risk in the medium term of a break-away political party forming of people who feel they are more representing the Labour Party,” said Ms Childers. This is very evident all over Europe.” She said Labour should renegotiate the Programme for Government to avoid being accused of breaking election promises.

Can I say that the Campaign for Labour Policies, which had a press launch today, has no intention of forming a splinter party. I do agree with Childers that we need to renegotiate the PfG.

fluffybiscuits
12-09-2012, 04:28 PM
I thought Carton was a daft place for Labour to choose in current circumstances. I suspect it was Stagg's idea.In any case Gilmore, according to the Irish Times has also "... laughed off claims from Labour MEP Nessa Childers that the party could break up, with a splinter group forming another party. “That’s news to me,” said the Tánaiste. Leinster MEP Ms Childers had earlier claimed she could see tensions forming in the party and would not be surprised by a split.

“In terms of the Labour Party, there is a risk in the medium term of a break-away political party forming of people who feel they are more representing the Labour Party,” said Ms Childers. This is very evident all over Europe.” She said Labour should renegotiate the Programme for Government to avoid being accused of breaking election promises.

Can I say that the Campaign for Labour Policies, which had a press launch today, has no intention of forming a splinter party. I do agree with Childers that we need to renegotiate the PfG.

Why would he choose such a venue?

disability student
12-09-2012, 04:35 PM
Why would he choose such a venue?

They have set a very bad example re Carton house which was/is very expensive enough as it does erode & damage the image of Labour as a socialist party which is now seen as rich folks party.

It's clearest example of where Labour have lost the track of themselves, who they are and what they stood for etc. It's increasingly seen that Lab along with Trade unions as right wing party.

The coalition government have made numerous mistakes re cut in disabilities ervices which indicates that they haven't learned it at all since they came into power.

It's interesting to see the trade unions nowdays rarely made noises as they did when FF were in govt.

Somehow they were silenced by Gimme more et al??

fluffybiscuits
12-09-2012, 04:36 PM
They have set a very bad example re Carton house which is very expensive enough as it does damage the image of Labour as rich folks group rather than socialist party.

It's clearest example of where Labour have lost the track of themselves, who they are and they stood for etc. It's increasingly seen that Lab along with Trade unions as right wing party.

The coalition government have made numerous mistakes re cut in disabilities ervices which indicates that they haven't learned it at all since they came into power.

Trade unions nowdays rarely made noises as they did when FF were in govt.

Somehow they were silenced by Gimme more et al??

The Unions seem indifferent somehow, scary ....

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 04:37 PM
I thought Carton was a daft place for Labour to choose in current circumstances. I suspect it was Stagg's idea.

In any case Gilmore, according to the Irish Times has also "... laughed off claims from Labour MEP Nessa Childers that the party could break up, with a splinter group forming another party. “That’s news to me,” said the Tánaiste. Leinster MEP Ms Childers had earlier claimed she could see tensions forming in the party and would not be surprised by a split.

“In terms of the Labour Party, there is a risk in the medium term of a break-away political party forming of people who feel they are more representing the Labour Party,” said Ms Childers. This is very evident all over Europe.” She said Labour should renegotiate the Programme for Government to avoid being accused of breaking election promises.

Can I say that the Campaign for Labour Policies, which had a press launch today, has no intention of forming a splinter party. I do agree with Childers that we need to renegotiate the PfG.

At no point did ms Childers say that the CLP would form such a group. The Tanaiste of course knows that it is educated speculation

Richardbouvet
12-09-2012, 04:51 PM
Stagg is the local TD.

Childers is a trenchant and valuable critic of the present leadership strategy.
I hope she can give some support to the CLP.

disability student
12-09-2012, 04:56 PM
Stagg is the local TD.

Childers is a trenchant and valuable critic of the present leadership strategy.
I hope she can give some support to the CLP.

Childers does have a right to speak if you don't like it or not. That's part of democracy.

I haven't heard anything re CLP as it was news to me.. btw, i am not a labour supporter but i won't weep any tears if labour go out in a huge bang. They will go out in the same way as PD or the greens did as it's a matter of when.

It's bit ingenious to say that Labour TD's are worried about their seats but there is no election this year until 2016.

Greengoddess
12-09-2012, 04:57 PM
Stagg is the local TD.

Childers is a trenchant and valuable critic of the present leadership strategy.
I hope she can give some support to the CLP.
Will be at meeting on Saturday.
Really I wish I hadn't made an academic speculation on splits. I am not really a natural politican. By the time you see the trap it's too late.

Baron von Biffo
12-09-2012, 06:54 PM
Outgoing Lab TD for Galway East, Colm Keaveney has a response in today's IT to the dismissal of his recent pearls of wisdom by party elders.

The key line seems to be :-

"Many young and first-time TDs, in both parties, are frustrated at being cut out of the process of engagement with policy"

Or to put it another way - 'Promote me or the kitten gets it'.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0912/1224323910727.html

Griska
12-09-2012, 07:36 PM
Outgoing Lab TD for Galway East, Colm Keaveney has a response in today's IT to the dismissal of his recent pearls of wisdom by party elders.

The key line seems to be :-

"Many young and first-time TDs, in both parties, are frustrated at being cut out of the process of engagement with policy"

Or to put it another way - 'Promote me or the kitten gets it'.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0912/1224323910727.html

Well, the young un's can make as much noise as they want.
Many of the old guard will probably call it a day after this Dail and won't give a fiddlers what they do or say.

C. Flower
12-09-2012, 08:57 PM
I think that both Ahern and Cowen and indeed most ministers/former ministers would have earned substantially more outside of politics. At senior levels in business, bonuses and pension contributions alone are multiples of ministerial pay.

Getting to the very top in business is probably more to do with political/people skills than technical aptitude. Just look at the useless clots that were on 7 figure salaries for running the banks into the ground.

Ahern has been dropped by the speaking agency who had signed him up.
Cowen has gone back to study.

Neither are employable.

C. Flower
12-09-2012, 09:07 PM
Eamon isn't given to outright lies. It may me more interesting or else wishful thinking.

What do you make of the "lucking the goose with the minimum of hissing" approach to the budget, as expressed by Quinn?

Quoting Louis XVI's Finance Minister.

Pre-guillotine politics. Gilmore knows quite well that there are years of emiseration ahead for working class and many middle class people. He has retreated with the Labour Party behind high walls and gates, literally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Colbert

In the documentary on the Department of Education, there were repeated nervous glances out of the windows by Quinn and his advisors. They have no intention whatsoever of telling the truth about the intended plucking.

Baron von Biffo
13-09-2012, 12:14 AM
Ahern has been dropped by the speaking agency who had signed him up.
Cowen has gone back to study.

Neither are employable.

After careers in politics.

Greengoddess
15-09-2012, 09:22 AM
Truth hurts?

Quote ( anonymous) from Labour person in Examiner to Shaun Connolly

"As another Labour figure put it to me: "Yeah, on current form we’ll probably lose half our seats, but Fine Gael will come in with around 70 next time, so they will still need us — unless Fianna Fáil are absolutely desperate — so it looks like we’re here for 10 years whatever happens, And know knows — by then people might actually like us again?"

Shaadi
15-09-2012, 10:53 AM
Truth hurts?

Quote ( anonymous) from Labour person in Examiner to Shaun Connolly

"As another Labour figure put it to me: "Yeah, on current form we’ll probably lose half our seats, but Fine Gael will come in with around 70 next time, so they will still need us — unless Fianna Fáil are absolutely desperate — so it looks like we’re here for 10 years whatever happens, And know knows — by then people might actually like us again?"A stunning lack of ambition, and one that fails to take into account the consequences of letting FG, FF, SF and the Independents eclipse Labour in the polls. Having no ambition but to be bit part players in a FG dominated Govt with some baubles to distribute to party members. The PDs tried that, and grew weaker and weaker until they ceased to exist.

FGs ability to snatch defeat from the Jaws Of Victory shouldn't be underestimated. They got 76 seats with a hurricane of anti-FF rage in their sails. They're quite capable of giving the two fingers to the electorate, and given the cutbacks they're going to have to impose on the electorate 70 seats is a very-over optimistic seat projection for them.

Slim Buddha
15-09-2012, 11:09 AM
I think that both Ahern and Cowen and indeed most ministers/former ministers would have earned substantially more outside of politics. At senior levels in business, bonuses and pension contributions alone are multiples of ministerial pay.

Getting to the very top in business is probably more to do with political/people skills than technical aptitude. Just look at the useless clots that were on 7 figure salaries for running the banks into the ground.

Ahern was a clerical officer in the Mater Hospital and Cowen was a small town solicitor and a pretty callow one before he parked his butt in the Dail. It is unlikely they would have "earned substantially more outside politics". Of course, I am just assuming they are not plugged into the cronyist network which is the web of arteriosclerosis which props up the arthritic and moribund crapola that is the irish political system.

Your comment on the ineptitude of the idiots on seven figure salaries who couldn´t run a bath, never mind a bank, say more about Irish business practices than anything else.

.

jmcc
15-09-2012, 12:30 PM
Truth hurts?

Quote ( anonymous) from Labour person in Examiner to Shaun Connolly

"As another Labour figure put it to me: "Yeah, on current form we’ll probably lose half our seats, but Fine Gael will come in with around 70 next time, so they will still need us — unless Fianna Fáil are absolutely desperate — so it looks like we’re here for 10 years whatever happens, And know knows — by then people might actually like us again?"The outlook is a bit delusional in that it completely ignores the rise of Sinn Fein and the possibility of FG being demolished by the rise of new right of centre party. Labour losing half its seats would be a remarkably good result given the volatility of proportional representation.

Regards...jmcc

Greengoddess
15-09-2012, 12:40 PM
A stunning lack of ambition, and one that fails to take into account the consequences of letting FG, FF, SF and the Independents eclipse Labour in the polls. Having no ambition but to be bit part players in a FG dominated Govt with some baubles to distribute to party members. The PDs tried that, and grew weaker and weaker until they ceased to exist.

FGs ability to snatch defeat from the Jaws Of Victory shouldn't be underestimated. They got 76 seats with a hurricane of anti-FF rage in their sails. They're quite capable of giving the two fingers to the electorate, and given the cutbacks they're going to have to impose on the electorate 70 seats is a very-over optimistic seat projection for them.
It depends what kind of ambition you are talking about. It is the Tds who do NOT have this attitude I feel for. They will take the hit and be tarred with the same brush.

Shaadi
15-09-2012, 01:42 PM
It depends what kind of ambition you are talking about. It is the Tds who do NOT have this attitude I feel for. They will take the hit and be tarred with the same brush.The ambition to compete for the number 1 position in Irish politics, so as to implement as much of your agenda as possible. An ambition that was realisable because FG are not very likeable and FF were out on their feet, while SF weren't mainstream enough.

The failure of Labour to project a caring face has taken the boot of FFs neck and handed the left-wing of Irish politics over to SF, who if they get a head of steam up will become the main challengers to FG.

The TDs who don't share the attitude, will like the priests who didn't share the attitude of the hierarchy suffer from being tarred with the same brush. Like the good priests, they won't have prevented the damage or have faced down the hierarchy. If you haven't separated yourself from the rotten head, then you're going to stink of it and rightly so.

Baron von Biffo
18-09-2012, 11:54 AM
Gilmore reckons he can get the lobby fodder to vote confidence in Reilly.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/tanaiste-labour-will-back-health-minister-567343.html

Will Shortall have to be away on government business I wonder?

DCon
18-09-2012, 11:56 AM
Quinn, and the government, using college grants to force people to pay the USC


Clare County Council has defended writing to college grant applicants asking for proof of household charge payments to progress applications.

In a statement, the council said it would “prioritise” the processing of payments from households which have paid the charge. It said delay was “regretted” but said early payment of the charge "will ensure no unnecessary delay in the payment of grants”.

The council said the “assessment and processing” of the grants was done at “a cost” to the council.


Responding to the council's action, Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn said it was “reasonable” for councils to ask college grant applicants for proof of household charge payments.

Mr Quinn said he imagined it was “likely that other councils will do the same thing”. It was a reasonable question to be asked if a person is seeking additional taxpayers' money when they “haven’t paid a legally due tax”, he said.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2012/0918/298307_1.jpg?ts=1347965643


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0918/breaking16.html

Baron von Biffo
18-09-2012, 12:21 PM
Quinn, and the government, using college grants to force people to pay the USC

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/images/2012/0918/298307_1.jpg?ts=1347965643

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0918/breaking16.html

What's wrong with denying state services to tax dodgers?

fluffybiscuits
18-09-2012, 12:26 PM
What's wrong with denying state services to tax dodgers?

Asking people who are applying for a grant as they cant afford college to pay for a service they cant afford is it not? Why should a student be punished for something his parents did? Few differnet ways of looking at this...

Holly
18-09-2012, 12:29 PM
What's wrong with denying state services to tax dodgers?
If you have to be told, you wouldn't understand the answer.

Baron von Biffo
18-09-2012, 01:12 PM
Asking people who are applying for a grant as they cant afford college to pay for a service they cant afford is it not? Why should a student be punished for something his parents did? Few differnet ways of looking at this...

That's an argument for waivers not for tolerating tax dodging.

Baron von Biffo
18-09-2012, 01:12 PM
If you have to be told, you wouldn't understand the answer.

Your sagacity humbles me.

EMUII
18-09-2012, 01:32 PM
I'm saddened by reports that Eamon Gillmore is confident of the party he leads voting confidence in James Reilly. Reilly is clearly out of his depth but Labour will still vote to keep him there to preserve their position in Government. Sad day for Labour and a sad day for patients.

DCon
18-09-2012, 01:34 PM
I'm saddened by reports that Eamon Gillmore is confident of the party he leads voting confidence in James Reilly. Reilly is clearly out of his depth but Labour will still vote to keep him there to preserve their position in Government. Sad day for Labour and a sad day for patients.

their position in Government, and their Ministerial pensions.

that is all that counts

EMUII
18-09-2012, 01:36 PM
their position in Government, and their Ministerial pensions.

that is all that counts

So it would seem.

PaddyJoe
20-09-2012, 09:14 PM
Interesting snippet in the Phoenix this week on the Campaign for Labour Policies meeting in Wynn's hotel. Attended by over 120 people, the meeting discussed its programme for reviving Labour values with five demands: invest in jobs; tax the rich; expand public bodies-no privatisation; trade union rights and 'repudiate the odious debt'.
No TDs were present apart from Patrick Nulty who is outside the party whip at the moment.
MEP Nessa Childers gets an honourable mention and is described as 'one of the few Labour personalities that has retained popularity and is likely to hold her seat in 2014.

Dr. FIVE
20-09-2012, 09:16 PM
hmmmm

Come back to us when we see some action methinks

C. Flower
27-09-2012, 11:37 PM
hmmmm

Come back to us when we see some action methinks

Round about now?

These are the crunch issues.



invest in jobs; tax the rich; expand public bodies-no privatisation; trade union rights and 'repudiate the odious debt'.

Why would this group not align with the ULA ?

PaddyJoe
28-09-2012, 01:11 AM
Round about now?

These are the crunch issues.



invest in jobs; tax the rich; expand public bodies-no privatisation; trade union rights and 'repudiate the odious debt'.

Why would this group not align with the ULA ?

Sounds like a very good basic check list there. What's not to like?
:)

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 12:40 PM
Sounds like a very good basic check list there. What's not to like?
:)

Will this group support Shorthall ?

Greengoddess
29-09-2012, 01:18 PM
Will this group support Shorthall ?
I don't know enough to say but she would have to want that too

jmcc
29-09-2012, 06:44 PM
So what are the chances of a Rebel Alliance forming with all those ex-Labourites, SF and the ULA? Will the Labour grass roots remove the Stickies?

Regards...jmcc

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2012, 07:02 PM
So what are the chances of a Rebel Alliance forming with all those ex-Labourites, SF and the ULA? Will the Labour grass roots remove the Stickies?

Regards...jmcc

Precisely zero.

SF was happy to use the also-rans to make up a TG in the last Dail but now they see them as competition. They won't dilute their purity on others.

The ULA is a constellation of crazies who set up their own micro-parties because they can't work with others.

Of the Lab dissidents, 3 are looking at their constituents and one is looking in the mirror.

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 07:07 PM
I don't know enough to say but she would have to want that too

It's a good starting point, no matter who gets behind it .


Invest in jobs; tax the rich; expand public bodies-no privatisation; trade union rights and 'repudiate the odious debt'.

Just add - access to health care and education for all.

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 07:09 PM
So what are the chances of a Rebel Alliance forming with all those ex-Labourites, SF and the ULA? Will the Labour grass roots remove the Stickies?

Regards...jmcc

The polls give more than 50% of the vote to Labour, SF + "the Independents".

Jolly Red Giant
29-09-2012, 07:15 PM
The polls give more than 50% of the vote to Labour, SF + "the Independents".

LP is a right-wing neo-liberal party

SF are a nationalist party who use left-wing rhetoric

The Indos are a mish-mash of everything from conscious right-wingers to gombeen politicians to the ULA.

jmcc
29-09-2012, 07:22 PM
Precisely zero.

SF was happy to use the also-rans to make up a TG in the last Dail but now they see them as competition. They won't dilute their purity on others.Interesting. Though the current Stickie problem with Labour is a good lesson for them. But they learned that one in blood.


The ULA is a constellation of crazies who set up their own micro-parties because they can't work with others.Perhaps if the government falls in the next few weeks, there's going to be an early 1980s makeup to the new Dail.

The ones to watch over the next few weeks are those who are younger than the Stickie politburo and in danger of losing their seats to Sinn Fein and a resurgent Fianna Fail. They will be looking for leadership from the genuine Old Labour politicians rather than the walking dead like Howlin, Quinn et al.

Regards...jmcc

riposte
29-09-2012, 07:52 PM
Interesting. Though the current Stickie problem with Labour is a good lesson for them. But they learned that one in blood.

Perhaps if the government falls in the next few weeks, there's going to be an early 1980s makeup to the new Dail.

The ones to watch over the next few weeks are those who are younger than the Stickie politburo and in danger of losing their seats to Sinn Fein and a resurgent Fianna Fail. They will be looking for leadership from the genuine Old Labour politicians rather than the walking dead like Howlin, Quinn et al.

Regards...jmcc

A good post jmcc .... but Howlin and Quinn were never part of the Stickie politburo.

Jolly Red Giant
29-09-2012, 07:55 PM
They will be looking for leadership from the genuine Old Labour politicians rather than the walking dead like Howlin, Quinn et al.


Who the hell are the 'Old Genuine Labour politicians'?

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 07:56 PM
LP is a right-wing neo-liberal party

SF are a nationalist party who use left-wing rhetoric

The Indos are a mish-mash of everything from conscious right-wingers to gombeen politicians to the ULA.

And of course the voters, and their political development and experiences in search of a party to meet their needs, are of zero interest to you.

Jolly Red Giant
29-09-2012, 08:02 PM
And of course the voters, and their political development and experiences in search of a party to meet their needs, are of zero interest to you.

CF - the suggestion was being made about a 'rebel' alliance - soemone said where would it come from - you mentioned LP/SF/Indos as having 50%

Now stop being so bloody facetious - if you want to say something then say it and stick with it and stop continuously trying to change the goalposts when you get caught out.

jmcc
29-09-2012, 08:10 PM
A good post jmcc .... but Howlin and Quinn were never part of the Stickie politburo.But they are members of the walking dead - those who may not be running in the next GE. The cynical view is that the only thing these people are interested in is their ministerial pensions.

Regards...jmcc

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 08:10 PM
CF - the suggestion was being made about a 'rebel' alliance - soemone said where would it come from - you mentioned LP/SF/Indos as having 50%



Do you really not have any concept of the people - the electorate - as separate from political parties ?

riposte
29-09-2012, 08:13 PM
Now stop being so bloody facetious - if you want to say something then say it and stick with it and stop continuously trying to change the goalposts when you get caught out.

lol !!

http://www.politicalworld.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=250&d=1348945968

Jolly Red Giant
29-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Do you really not have any concept of the people - the electorate - as separate from political parties ?

Of course I do - but that was not what you were attempting to argue.

I am rapidly drawing the conclusion that debating with you is not worth the effort - you are constantly changing positions on practically every issue - constantly trying to move the goalposts - and constantly arguing that you're right and everyone else is wrong (unless they agree with you) - you are the archetypal internet warrior - get off the computer and do some real political work.

jmcc
29-09-2012, 08:18 PM
Who the hell are the 'Old Genuine Labour politicians'?Those who still believe in a more Leftist and Socialist view rather than the careerist types who view politics as a career and a political party as a step on a ladder. Labour, under the Stickies, and perhaps under Quinn and Spring moved away from the old view and seems to have ditched the working classes in the process. The working classes have floated to Sinn Fein and even the polls indicate that Labour is not going to get them back.

If Fianna Fail removes Martin and reinvents itself (especially if it starts talking about Odious Debt), then it might be able to gain a lot of Labour's floating vote back.

When the Croke Park deal is dumped or "renegotiated", a lot of those who thought that Labour was looking out for their interests are going to be left standing bewildered. That's when they may become newly radicalised and they will take this out on Labour rather than Fine Gael.

From my point of view, Labour's extinction clock moved another few minutes closer to midnight this week.

Regards...jmcc

riposte
29-09-2012, 08:23 PM
But they are members of the walking dead - those who may not be running in the next GE. The cynical view is that the only thing these people are interested in is their ministerial pensions.

Regards...jmcc

My guess is ...... Six Billion people in the World would agree with you on that one.

Jolly Red Giant
29-09-2012, 08:48 PM
Those who still believe in a more Leftist and Socialist view rather than the careerist types who view politics as a career and a political party as a step on a ladder.

Okay - that explains who you think they should be - now who exactly are these people? - do you have a few names?

I do not know a single 'Old Genuine Labour politician' (my father was one - more than 50 years a member but he died nearly 20 years ago)

I do know quite a few 'Old right-wing LP gangsters' who operate as the footsoldiers in the personal fiefdoms of some LP TD's (like North Kerry and Wexford).

Greengoddess
29-09-2012, 09:04 PM
Those who still believe in a more Leftist and Socialist view rather than the careerist types who view politics as a career and a political party as a step on a ladder. Labour, under the Stickies, and perhaps under Quinn and Spring moved away from the old view and seems to have ditched the working classes in the process. The working classes have floated to Sinn Fein and even the polls indicate that Labour is not going to get them back.

If Fianna Fail removes Martin and reinvents itself (especially if it starts talking about Odious Debt), then it might be able to gain a lot of Labour's floating vote back.

When the Croke Park deal is dumped or "renegotiated", a lot of those who thought that Labour was looking out for their interests are going to be left standing bewildered. That's when they may become newly radicalised and they will take this out on Labour rather than Fine Gael.

From my point of view, Labour's extinction clock moved another few minutes closer to midnight this week.

Regards...jmcc

Extinction clocks, dead men walking . I will desist from reading this thread at night. It's like being in a slow line to the guillotine .

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2012, 09:06 PM
Extinction clocks, dead men walking . I will desist from reading this thread at night. It's like being in a slow line to the guillotine .

It is a far far better thing...

:)

Greengoddess
29-09-2012, 09:16 PM
It is a far far better thing...

:)

Yeah, right. SF knitting at at the side. Or is that FG?

PaddyJoe
29-09-2012, 09:22 PM
Extinction clocks, dead men walking . I will desist from reading this thread at night. It's like being in a slow line to the guillotine .

Damm it GG, I log on here for the positive vibes. You're bringing the place down with that sort of negativity...
:D

C. Flower
29-09-2012, 09:23 PM
Of course I do - but that was not what you were attempting to argue.

.

In other words, you concede that the voters and politicians are not one and the same.

I've learned how to translate :)

Greengoddess
29-09-2012, 09:38 PM
To cheer everyone up

I remember jmcc being nice to me once ages ago on another site. People were being savagely abusive and I didnt know what trolling was. Jmcc will probably be embarrassed .....

jmcc
30-09-2012, 01:53 AM
To cheer everyone up

I remember jmcc being nice to me once ages ago on another site. People were being savagely abusive and I didnt know what trolling was. Jmcc will probably be embarrassed .....There goes my credibility as a cynic. :)

Regards...jmcc

jmcc
30-09-2012, 01:58 AM
It is a far far better thing...

:)It would be a shame of Labour's story ended up as being a tale of two Stickies. :)

Regards...jmcc

jmcc
30-09-2012, 03:05 AM
Extinction clocks, dead men walking . I will desist from reading this thread at night. It's like being in a slow line to the guillotine .The walking dead (zombies) rather than dead men walking. :) The decimation of Labour could actually be a good thing for Labour in that it might refocus some people in Labour. It would also allow a more belief orientated organisation to emerge. If people believe in the ideals of a Labour party and begin to organise on the basis of those ideals, it could become the major party of the Left and Centre. Fianna Fail has, especially during the Ahern years, traded on the idea that there was an 'Us' and 'Them' divide and that Fianna Fail was an 'Us' party. However as recent events have shown, it was really hijacked by a 'Them' clique. (This is different from the German idea in that the 'Us' and 'Them' are just parts of the same thing.)

The 'Us' and 'Them' politics actually runs a bit deeper in the floating vote. The floating vote is interest based and it might not be unusual to see a floating voter voting for a combination of Fine Gael, Sinn Fein, Labour, Fianna Fail, Greens, Independents. These strange voting patterns may be based on the idea that someone could do the job rather than on traditional party influences. With education (perhaps from the mid 1970s onwards when the beneficiaries of the free secondary education of the 1960s matured), these people have learned that the traditional authority figures, the teachers and lawyers are often not brighter or more capable than others. The culture shock for teachers is quite visible on the other site where teachers, unused to having their opinions questioned, are often ridiculed when commenting on matters beyond education. But yet teachers and lawyers are over-represented in the Dail purely because they have the time and money to spend on having a political career.

Floating voters often appreciate genuine brilliance but reject assumed authority. What may be happening with Labour now is that rejection of assumed authority by the floating voters.

In the short term, it may be terrible for a lot of Labour TDs. However in the long term, it could be far better for Labour in that it would allow Labour to grow with a far more representative and wider electoral base and it could allow it to take over the party of 'Us' position that Fianna Fail lost. Indeed Labour might have been on target to take that position in Irish politics, within five years or so, if it had not gone into government with Fine Gael. There may be an 'Us' and 'Them' fracture in Labour that has been ongoing for a year or so now. But that's just zero dark thirty speculation.

Regards...jmcc

DCon
30-09-2012, 09:59 AM
In the short term, it may be terrible for a lot of Labour TDs.

The amount of careerists at the top of Labour will dig in and keep this government going, at least until they have maximised their pension entitlements.

I have said it before, and fully expect, that we will see a far more rebellious streak emerge after the maximum pension entitlements have been secured. Especially as a lot of those at the Labour top table will be riding off into the sunset.

And those remaining might calculate it is better to start again, as you have suggested. Labour will not grow if their main role is to rubber stamp FG policy/legislation.

FG learned well from what FF did to the Greens. Put smaller party issues into the PfG, then proceed with all your main priorities and put the rest on the long finger.

Keeps the smaller party obedient. Any PfG agreed to by the small coalition party from now on should have deadlines imposed. If X is not enacted by DD/MM/YYYY, a General Election will ensue.

C. Flower
30-09-2012, 10:38 AM
Clientelism is harder to sustain when there is a rapidly diminishing "pot" to distribute.

The tide is going out and croneyist and clientelist "insider" politics will attract more and more hostility from those locked out of the various circles.

The Labour Party itself is blatantly croneyist - it doesn't operate on different principles to FF and FG in this regard.

On its own, "going clean" is not going to work for any new node of opposition - all too often clean-up Independents have fallen foul themselves in a short while. Look at the mess with Wallace.

It's the left-right political divide that matters here, in terms of whether Roisin Shorthall's resignation is a flash in the pan or the sign of something more substantial and permanent.

Baron von Biffo
30-09-2012, 11:50 AM
It would be a shame of Labour's story ended up as being a tale of two Stickies. :)

Regards...jmcc

:D

Baron von Biffo
30-09-2012, 12:18 PM
whether Roisin Shorthall's resignation is a flash in the pan or the sign of something more substantial and permanent.

It is a flash in the pan. Her moment in the sun will end soon and attention will switch to more pressing issues than a former junior minister with a grudge.

In the Finucane interview she moaned that the Labour party had let her down. That wasn't very clever because it blames the other TDs for her predicament. Not the best way to make friends and influence people.

Her repeated attacks on Gilmore and in particular the way she timed her flounce to do the maximum damage to him means that no future leader will thrust her.

Greengoddess
30-09-2012, 01:25 PM
Joan Burton today:


She said: "I think that Eamon as the leader of the Labour Party has to have regard, if you like, to the national interest as well as to the interests of the Labour Party, but in the time of crisis that we're in, let's be very clear, the national interest comes first."

Baron von Biffo
30-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Joan Burton today:


She said: "I think that Eamon as the leader of the Labour Party has to have regard, if you like, to the national interest as well as to the interests of the Labour Party, but in the time of crisis that we're in, let's be very clear, the national interest comes first."

Nothing could better illustrate just how badly Shortall has misjudged this affair as those comments from Burton.

DCon
30-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Good points made here


The loss of Willie Penrose shouldn’t have happened either. When Willie resigned it was put to Labour that a local decision cannot be made as the wider interest demanded a strategic organisation of the defence forces. So Mullingar lost its barracks while Athlone retained its military presence. Here we have the direct opposite, local decisions are now being made when it suits Fine Gael. Strategic organisational decisions to plan the delivery of a service can now be made based on local criteria. The logic for the decision that led to Willie Penrose’s resignation is now binned. If anyone should reflect on the last 24 hours and ask what if, it’s Willie.


If you look at the list of primary care centres Ballymote in South Sligo is 25km from the Ballaghderreen centre that was added by Dr Reilly. Balbriggan also added by Dr Reilly is 14 km from Laytown which in turn is 11 km from the Drogheda primary care centres. Minister Reilly points to population in the case of Swords demanding a primary care centre so let’s grant him that. Nearly 50,000 do have health need. So are there 50,000 people living in both North Roscommon and South Sligo to justify each getting a primary care centre? Do these bordering areas have such high levels of deprivation? Or is there a big enough population between Drogheda, Laytown and Balbriggan to justify 3 of the 35 centres to be built nationally? 4 if you add Swords a motorway junction or 2 south of Balbriggan?

http://cllrjoeryan.blogspot.ie/2012/09/roisin-shortall-walks-tall.html

C. Flower
30-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Joan Burton today:


She said: "I think that Eamon as the leader of the Labour Party has to have regard, if you like, to the national interest as well as to the interests of the Labour Party, but in the time of crisis that we're in, let's be very clear, the national interest comes first."

Said this on another thread already, so apologies for repeating myself, but imo this is a political shift to the right (yet again) by the Labour leadership.

This is a de facto declaration of a National Government in which party politics are buried in favour of "emergency measures." This is not at all the same as a Coalition Government formed to carry out an agreed programme of measures.

We may kiss goodbye anything other than the US IMF neo-liberal approach, unadorned. I presume this will be the end of any remaining pretence that Labour is in Government in its own right, to represent its own voters.

Reilly drove the head of the HSE out by refusing to take any steps to reorganise its budget so as to maintain services, and has swept the stage clear for melt down, outsourcing, and slash and burn of the health service. Only profitable aspects to have a future.

There is no possibility of standing up for anything in this Government, apart from private profit.

jmcc
30-09-2012, 08:04 PM
Johnson's comment made reality in plural? Is Labour really trying to portray the current government as some kind of National Emergency/Unity Government?

Regards...jmcc

DCon
30-09-2012, 08:08 PM
Johnson's comment made reality in plural? Is Labour really trying to portray the current government as some kind of National Emergency/Unity Government?

Regards...jmcc

It's the only way they can try to keep the pretence that they are not just there to rubber stamp FG policy

Any "Labour" committments in the PfG are fantasy at this point. Labour do not want to walk, so rather than acknowledge the truth they will lie

C. Flower
01-10-2012, 11:32 AM
Johnson's comment made reality in plural? Is Labour really trying to portray the current government as some kind of National Emergency/Unity Government?

Regards...jmcc

Certainly this is what Joan Burton has said. She has rowed in behind the view that Fine Gael cannot be held to the Programme for Government because of the economic emergency we are facing.

Roisin Shorthall has very reasonably pointed out that the emergency did not activate Reilly to do anything about Consultants' pay or the price of pharmaceuticals.

The Labour Party surely needs to tell the electorate if it has abandoned the Programme for Government, and to go back to Party membership to see if they want a National Government of the form that Burton backs ?

Richardbouvet
01-10-2012, 11:48 AM
Sorry, who is Johnson?

jmcc
01-10-2012, 12:09 PM
Sorry, who is Johnson?This chap:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Johnson

The relevant quotation is: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Regards...jmcc

Slim Buddha
01-10-2012, 12:10 PM
Sorry, who is Johnson?

My guess is that the reference is to Lyndon Johnson who is reported to have said "Better to have them in the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in"

I may, of course, be completely wrong.

Greengoddess
01-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Certainly this is what Joan Burton has said. She has rowed in behind the view that Fine Gael cannot be held to the Programme for Government because of the economic emergency we are facing.

Roisin Shorthall has very reasonably pointed out that the emergency did not activate Reilly to do anything about Consultants' pay or the price of pharmaceuticals.

The Labour Party surely needs to tell the electorate if it has abandoned the Programme for Government, and to go back to Party membership to see if they want a National Government of the form that Burton backs ?

Which is in here:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/government-has-to-be-more-than-just-balancing-the-books-3223574.html

jmcc
01-10-2012, 12:46 PM
Could be a opening/positioning move by Burton. If it is then it is a clever one in that there's no overt threat to Gilmore but it damages him in terms of implied incompetence. (FG running rings around Labour and that Gilmore should have seen this coming).

Regards...jmcc

Dr. FIVE
02-10-2012, 12:24 AM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1002/1224324728880.html#.UGok_VKE8pw.twitter

jmcc
02-10-2012, 12:32 AM
Labour choosing its battles carefully? This was going to be unwinnable given that the logical escalation would have been leaving government. Gilmore may now be a lame duck leader - the Brian Cowen of the Labour party though without the booze.

Regards...jmcc

Baron von Biffo
02-10-2012, 12:34 AM
Labour choosing its battles carefully? This was going to be unwinnable given that the logical escalation would have been leaving government. Gilmore may now be a lame duck leader - the Brian Cowen of the Labour party though without the booze.

Regards...jmcc

+1 to the first bit. Not so sure of the second part.