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View Full Version : New attack on SW recipients by Labour.



Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 11:51 AM
Following on Joan Burton's claim that unemployment is a lifestyle choice and her slashing the winter fuel allowance, a Lab senator has now decided to put the boot into SW recipients.

Senator Jimmy Harte from Donegal launched a savage attack on a particular Dublin family over their SW payments and made a bogus comparison between their income and that of a family in employment.

The particulars claimed are -


Father's Disability Allowance - €322
Carers Allowance €380
Child Benefit €288
"Daughter (17) with special needs" €211
Guardian's Pension €286
Rent supplement €276


Harte claims that "You would need to be earning close to €140,000 to take that sort of money home after tax.". That claim is disingenuous because it ignores the fact that apart from the Disability Allowance all of the payments are available to all families where the breadwinner is in employment.

The Senator wants a cap on SW payments but the article doesn't say how he wants to implement it. Deny Child Benefit to families on SW perhaps? Or maybe say having special needs is a lifestyle choice for children with disabled parents.

If this was a one off we could dismiss it as the FG gene asserting itself - Harte's father is former FG TD Paddy Harte and he was a member of FG himself until relatively recently - but taken together with Burton's attacks it looks very much as if Lab is orchestrating a serious campaign against people on Social Welfare.

A secondary issue arising from this story is where did Harte get the figures? The numbers are very precise and it's unlikely that a Dublin family went to Donegal to tell some right wing loon what their income was, so how does Harte have that level of detail?

Hopefully a member of the opposition will demand an inquiry to determine if someone in Burton's department is leaking confidential personal information about claimants for political purposes. The Data Protection Commissioner should also be asked to examine the case.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-pays-euro1763-a-week-in-benefits-to-family-of-six-2887851.html

eanach1
27-09-2011, 01:52 PM
He is dead right to highlight this and I am grateful to know what these people are getting from our taxes. I am busting my ass working, studying, contributing to society and while I absolutely support helping these people out with accommodation, food, etc. it is a downright disgrace that they are taking home this kind of money. An absolute disgrace.

Frankie Lee
27-09-2011, 01:59 PM
"These people", the disabled?

Griska
27-09-2011, 02:00 PM
A guardian's payment is, I believe, but am open to correction, the equivalent of a foster carer's payment.
It's available to people who take care of children rather than have them placed in residential care.

This payment is availed of by people who are working and not working alike.
It's disingenuous bring this payment into the equation just to boost figures to suit an argument.
It costs considerably more per week to place a child in care.

Skrimshander
27-09-2011, 02:05 PM
He is dead right to highlight this and I am grateful to know what these people are getting from our taxes. I am busting my ass working, studying, contributing to society and while I absolutely support helping these people out with accommodation, food, etc. it is a downright disgrace that they are taking home this kind of money. An absolute disgrace.

well then it obvious, the dole lifestyle choice is your only option, ya know, to help you get rid of the inner anguish your feeling, do drop us a line in january, let us know how your doing with that...:D

Griska
27-09-2011, 02:08 PM
He is dead right to highlight this and I am grateful to know what these people are getting from our taxes. I am busting my ass working, studying, contributing to society and while I absolutely support helping these people out with accommodation, food, etc. it is a downright disgrace that they are taking home this kind of money. An absolute disgrace.

As part of your studies, do you ever question the information given?
Face value is a dangerous way to take things.

fluffybiscuits
27-09-2011, 02:10 PM
He is dead right to highlight this and I am grateful to know what these people are getting from our taxes. I am busting my ass working, studying, contributing to society and while I absolutely support helping these people out with accommodation, food, etc. it is a downright disgrace that they are taking home this kind of money. An absolute disgrace.

How did he get the information is the first thing was there a breach of data protection rules or if not what is his source? As people have said we cant just take evetything at face value and believe it, question ,question and question again. As Albert Camus was all about doubt it till you cant doubt no more....

Dr. FIVE
27-09-2011, 03:21 PM
Couldn't get a proper signal up town there so was listening to 4FM. What a bloody **** take. On their version of liveline they were harping on about a Bosnian family claiming some mad figure and then comparing to this lad they brought on. He is unemployed, dying of cancer and living in squalor, really grim story and isn't that ridiculous when the Bosian family are getting so much.

The tone of the show was horrible and I was just thinking, would they give a hoot about yerman if they didn't have the foreigners to get to get outraged over.

uugh

Fing Fers
27-09-2011, 03:37 PM
Mr Harte, who received the information from Department of Social Protection officials, said 50,000 is more than enough for a family to survive on.

I hope those words come back to haunt him when they get round to slashing his wages, if it ever happens. Muppets like this have all the answers when it comes to SW but not a peep out of them when it comes to work and jobs, the real problem. Rot in hell Mr Harte.

TotalMayhem
27-09-2011, 04:11 PM
If that would be the case, then why isn't the good Senator drawing the dole rather than trying make ends meet from his poor salary which is nowhere near the required 140k he is waffling about?

But then he's only doing his job which is to foster aggression between social groups, conveniently forgetting to mention the money this guy and all his ilk have thrown after bankers and developers... the entire country could live off the dole for a decade.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 05:35 PM
As part of your studies, do you ever question the information given?
Face value is a dangerous way to take things.

I read the article today in the Independent before I saw it here so I had taken note of everything. These payments are legitimate of course but when one couple are taking all of them at the same time then there needs to be a reduction on the overall total.

And BY THE WAY I actually live with a disability myself and I've never claimed a penny for it. I just get on with things. We all know people wrongfully getting these payments too I'm sure, for example a guy with a limp I know but is well capable of getting around where he wants managed to get himself disability allowance. It's fraud and it's disgusting. If more of us were like that we'd be even more like Greece as a country but thankfully some of us know how to say No.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 05:41 PM
.

I hope those words come back to haunt him when they get round to slashing his wages, if it ever happens. Muppets like this have all the answers when it comes to SW but not a peep out of them when it comes to work and jobs, the real problem. Rot in hell Mr Harte.

So, what, 50k for a family isn't enough?

Suppose it's okay to whinge about bankers and nama developers pay but not social welfare families getting 90k a year?

Nobody wants standard rates of SW slashed, just this wanton gross overpayment. I mean 1.2 k something a week?

eanach1
27-09-2011, 05:43 PM
How did he get the information is the first thing was there a breach of data protection rules or if not what is his source? As people have said we cant just take evetything at face value and believe it, question ,question and question again. As Albert Camus was all about doubt it till you cant doubt no more....

What makes either of you assume I don't question things?

I've given my opinion on this and I will stand by it any day. Don't assume anything.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 05:49 PM
well then it obvious, the dole lifestyle choice is your only option, ya know, to help you get rid of the inner anguish your feeling, do drop us a line in january, let us know how your doing with that...:D

I live on the same money as SW recipients minus the rent allowance, minus the medical card, minus the fuel allowance. So I'm living on less, why would I upgrade?

Yes?

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 05:54 PM
So, what, 50k for a family isn't enough?

Suppose it's okay to whinge about bankers and nama developers pay but not social welfare families getting 90k a year?

Nobody wants standard rates of SW slashed, just this wanton gross overpayment. I mean 1.2 k something a week?

Ok so you don't want standard rates of SW cut but you say this family is getting too much so what do you want to cut from them? Other than the standard Disability Allowance, Harte alleges they're getting the following payments, all of which are available to families where the breadwinner is in paid employment -


Carers Allowance 380
Child Benefit 288
"Daughter (17) with special needs" 211
Guardian's Pension 286
Rent supplement 276


What would you cut from that list?

Would you just apply your cuts to families where a parent is disabled or would you cut across the board?

Purely in financial terms, do you think it would cost more or less to care for old people, orphans and children with special needs in families rather than institutions?

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 05:56 PM
I read the article today in the Independent before I saw it here so I had taken note of everything. These payments are legitimate of course but when one couple are taking all of them at the same time then there needs to be a reduction on the overall total.

And BY THE WAY I actually live with a disability myself and I've never claimed a penny for it. I just get on with things. We all know people wrongfully getting these payments too I'm sure, for example a guy with a limp I know but is well capable of getting around where he wants managed to get himself disability allowance. It's fraud and it's disgusting. If more of us were like that we'd be even more like Greece as a country but thankfully some of us know how to say No.

A limp can be caused by a stone in the shoe or by degeneration of the spine - Are you confident that you can make a diagnosis of someone's level of disability based on seeing them walk?

Griska
27-09-2011, 06:16 PM
I read the article today in the Independent before I saw it here so I had taken note of everything. These payments are legitimate of course but when one couple are taking all of them at the same time then there needs to be a reduction on the overall total.

And BY THE WAY I actually live with a disability myself and I've never claimed a penny for it. I just get on with things. We all know people wrongfully getting these payments too I'm sure, for example a guy with a limp I know but is well capable of getting around where he wants managed to get himself disability allowance. It's fraud and it's disgusting. If more of us were like that we'd be even more like Greece as a country but thankfully some of us know how to say No.

That makes no sense. You believe that legitimate payments become less legitimate when taken together?

And as for "just get(ting) on with things". Fair play.
But not everyone can do so.
And expecting people with disabilities to just get on with things is a pretty awful attitude.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Ok so you don't want standard rates of SW cut but you say this family is getting too much so what do you want to cut from them? Other than the standard Disability Allowance, Harte alleges they're getting the following payments, all of which are available to families where the breadwinner is in paid employment -


Carers Allowance 380
Child Benefit 288
"Daughter (17) with special needs" 211
Guardian's Pension 286
Rent supplement 276


What would you cut from that list?

Would you just apply your cuts to families where a parent is disabled or would you cut across the board?

Purely in financial terms, do you think it would cost more or less to care for old people, orphans and children with special needs in families rather than institutions?

Like I already said I would take money off the total amount. The more allowances, the more the overall reduction. It's not a question of cutting any one allowance and it would take into account what they need to live on to make sure they still have enough to get by as a family.

It's just too much and most people will agree with that.

Skrimshander
27-09-2011, 06:29 PM
I live on the same money as SW recipients minus the rent allowance, minus the medical card, minus the fuel allowance. So I'm living on less, why would I upgrade?

Yes?

as i said your path is clear and if you truly believe you d be improving your circumstances it would be foolish not to do so. no?

eanach1
27-09-2011, 06:35 PM
That makes no sense. You believe that legitimate payments become less legitimate when taken together?

And as for "just get(ting) on with things". Fair play.
But not everyone can do so.
And expecting people with disabilities to just get on with things is a pretty awful attitude.

What's your problem?

I said that I just get on with it, I did not say everybody should just get on with it.

Also, I did not say that they become less legitimate when taken together. You just need to add up the totals and bring the total down to what that family needs to get by.

90k is too much.

Not arguing this any further. It's like arguing with politicians. I come from the real world and have good doses of innate empathy, but this is too much. Bertie Ahern et al all justify their huge pay outs too, but at least some politicians do many a good days work.

This example is only one. There are several families being grossly overpaid and this rot needs to be cut out. The lifestyle thing is well known also. A separate issue maybe there are thousands sitting on the dole long-term and worse again hoarding that money and hardly spending it.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 06:36 PM
as i said your path is clear and if you truly believe you d be improving your circumstances it would be foolish not to do so. no?

Like I said I get up off my ass every day and make my best effort in life. It's there for anyone to do the same.

You just get up earlier every day and work harder...

eanach1
27-09-2011, 06:39 PM
as i said your path is clear and if you truly believe you d be improving your circumstances it would be foolish not to do so. no?

For anyone still unemployed since 2008 crash I'd suggest a career change at this stage, or move off to another country. Of course the dole is too good to pass up eh.

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 06:44 PM
Like I already said I would take money off the total amount. The more allowances, the more the overall reduction. It's not a question of cutting any one allowance and it would take into account what they need to live on to make sure they still have enough to get by as a family.

It's just too much and most people will agree with that.

That wont wash I'm afraid. The family is entitled to each of the discrete payments and the payments are at specified rates. If you want to cut their income you have to say which payment(s) you want to chop.

You haven't told us whether you would just slash where one of the parents is disabled or if you'd cut a family where the breadwinner was in paid employment.

concernedparent
27-09-2011, 06:47 PM
For anyone still unemployed since 2008 crash I'd suggest a career change at this stage, or move off to another country. Of course the dole is too good to pass up eh.

And what if people don't want a career change, if they have found their particular niche in life but unfortunate enough to lose employment in it.

And what happens if personal circumstances dictate that a move abroad is not possible.

Not everyone is in the position to just up sticks and leave.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 07:05 PM
That wont wash I'm afraid. The family is entitled to each of the discrete payments and the payments are at specified rates. If you want to cut their income you have to say which payment(s) you want to chop.

You haven't told us whether you would just slash where one of the parents is disabled or if you'd cut a family where the breadwinner was in paid employment.

Hopefully the civil servants who get paid to calculate such things will do it for the next budget.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 07:08 PM
And what if people don't want a career change, if they have found their particular niche in life but unfortunate enough to lose employment in it.

And what happens if personal circumstances dictate that a move abroad is not possible.

Not everyone is in the position to just up sticks and leave.

Then they find a new career! I did say find a new career OR move abroad. That would seem to make sense but why would you bother when you can take in nearly 40 grand a year on welfare if you have a partner and two kids?

There are still opportunities in lots and lots of areas. People just don't have the will. I changed career, it's tough, but people are better off for it.

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 07:13 PM
Hopefully the civil servants who get paid to calculate such things will do it for the next budget.

You've expressed very definite views about the current level of payment so it's difficult to understand the sudden coyness when asked to be specific about how you'd remedy what you see as a problem.

Griska
27-09-2011, 07:15 PM
What's your problem?

I said that I just get on with it, I did not say everybody should just get on with it.

Also, I did not say that they become less legitimate when taken together. You just need to add up the totals and bring the total down to what that family needs to get by.

90k is too much.

Not arguing this any further. It's like arguing with politicians. I come from the real world and have good doses of innate empathy, but this is too much. Bertie Ahern et al all justify their huge pay outs too, but at least some politicians do many a good days work.

This example is only one. There are several families being grossly overpaid and this rot needs to be cut out. The lifestyle thing is well known also. A separate issue maybe there are thousands sitting on the dole long-term and worse again hoarding that money and hardly spending it.

"Too much", "this rot needs to be cut out", "lifestyle thing" "hoarding that money"
Did you cut and paste this from a Daily Mail article?

Let's cut this rot right out.

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 07:17 PM
Then they find a new career! I did say find a new career OR move abroad. That would seem to make sense but why would you bother when you can take in nearly 40 grand a year on welfare if you have a partner and two kids?

There are still opportunities in lots and lots of areas. People just don't have the will. I changed career, it's tough, but people are better off for it.

Not everyone can avail of every opportunity. Geography, education, skills, health etc all come into play.

Kev Bar
27-09-2011, 07:20 PM
"Too much", "this rot needs to be cut out", "lifestyle thing" "hoarding that money"
Did you cut and paste this from a Daily Mail article?

Let's cut this rot right out.

I'd suggest a little of that Christian Hug Thang.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 07:21 PM
"Too much", "this rot needs to be cut out", "lifestyle thing" "hoarding that money"
Did you cut and paste this from a Daily Mail article?

Let's cut this rot right out.

That is your opinion and good luck to you. I have mine and I've the same stance on anyone who rakes it in from the taxpayer. I've protested against bad development and banks, etc. but seemingly most Irish people have been bought off and/or won't get up off their asses to protest.

I know intelligent, able-bodied grown men who have spent their life on the dole bar a couple of months work here and there, free degree course, free postgrad course, and they hardly spend a penny, and think they know it all. From my perspective (I'm a hard worker and believe in contributing to society)they are their own worst enemies, but the fact is from their point of view they are raking it in, are very well-off and can continue doing nothing.

If we were all to sit on our backsides and take, take, off welfare there wouldn't be much going on here.

eanach1
27-09-2011, 07:25 PM
Not everyone can avail of every opportunity. Geography, education, skills, health etc all come into play.

Come on Baron, there is an opportunity everywhere for everyone (apart from obvious cases of real health issues, etc). I wish the government would set up a decent careers advice facility for people. Hell, they can't even do it for secondary school level... ah this country is done for.

Baron von Biffo
27-09-2011, 07:38 PM
Come on Baron, there is an opportunity everywhere for everyone (apart from obvious cases of real health issues, etc). I wish the government would set up a decent careers advice facility for people. Hell, they can't even do it for secondary school level... ah this country is done for.

Someone who left school at 15 with a Group Cert 40 years ago and became a bricklayer would have a bit of difficulty retraining for a new job. Then when he does retrain he's too old for most employers to consider.

eanach1
28-09-2011, 10:35 AM
Someone who left school at 15 with a Group Cert 40 years ago and became a bricklayer would have a bit of difficulty retraining for a new job. Then when he does retrain he's too old for most employers to consider.

Nope there are options for him too. He has to look and find help.

Baron von Biffo
28-09-2011, 12:51 PM
Nope there are options for him too. He has to look and find help.

And then there's the real world.

Once you hit 30 it gets increasingly difficult to get a job unless you're bringing a lot of experience as part of your career progression. How many employers do you think would be willing to take on a 50 year old with no experience?

eanach1
28-09-2011, 01:02 PM
And then there's the real world.

Once you hit 30 it gets increasingly difficult to get a job unless you're bringing a lot of experience as part of your career progression. How many employers do you think would be willing to take on a 50 year old with no experience?

Not many! So an option is to go it alone with a new business, be it farmers markets or whatever the interest is that works commercially, and get the advice you need and save up the funds you need by taking up a factory job or whatever you can get. I have seen 50 year old woman working in McDonalds in O'Connell St. and 50 year old man working on the till in Dunnes in Talbot St. These are jobs that some graduates are taking up, and they happily employ older people. Aldi in Santry had a recruitment sign up for months.
At the same time that 50 year old could be thinking about doing the leaving cert. Why not?

Baron von Biffo
28-09-2011, 04:07 PM
Not many! So an option is to go it alone with a new business, be it farmers markets or whatever the interest is that works commercially, and get the advice you need and save up the funds you need by taking up a factory job or whatever you can get.

Not everyone has the skills needed to run a business even if they had the assets to establish one.

Where are all these factory jobs you seem to think are out there? When there were jobs people seemed to be totally unaware of the vast income to be had on the dole. They were out working.


I have seen 50 year old woman working in McDonalds in O'Connell St. and 50 year old man working on the till in Dunnes in Talbot St. These are jobs that some graduates are taking up, and they happily employ older people. Aldi in Santry had a recruitment sign up for months.

No doubt a smattering of older people can pick up jobs like that but it's never going to be a significant source of jobs for over 30s.

It's also worth noting that those are low paid jobs so they're only really accessible to someone living close by or who has access to public transport.

One member of the family that Harte is attacking is a 17 year old with special needs. Now we don't know the nature of her needs but I know of a young woman who has some sort of high functioning autism/Aspergers who isn't able to hold down even mundane jobs like shelf stacking or hotel room cleaning (she's had both) because she can't remember even simple instructions and she's innumerate. It may be that the girl in question suffers a similar level of incapacity.

Even when disabled people can participate in the workforce their earning capacity is often very limited.


At the same time that 50 year old could be thinking about doing the leaving cert. Why not?

What's he to live on while he's doing it, especially if you and the senator get your way and his SW is slashed? When he has his leaving, how many jobs will be open to him at 52 with no experience?

eanach1
29-09-2011, 11:09 AM
Not everyone has the skills needed to run a business even if they had the assets to establish one.

Where are all these factory jobs you seem to think are out there? When there were jobs people seemed to be totally unaware of the vast income to be had on the dole. They were out working.



It was in the news this week about the Brazilians getting work permits en masse for meat factories. And these are jobs that are available all over the country. They said they can't get the Irish to work in them. And I believe them.

I did this work for two summers while I was in college packing meat off the line. Is this work not good enough for people to do? They had lots of 50 year olds working there when I was there too.

eanach1
29-09-2011, 11:18 AM
One member of the family that Harte is attacking is a 17 year old with special needs. Now we don't know the nature of her needs but I know of a young woman who has some sort of high functioning autism/Aspergers who isn't able to hold down even mundane jobs like shelf stacking or hotel room cleaning (she's had both) because she can't remember even simple instructions and she's innumerate. It may be that the girl in question suffers a similar level of incapacity.


What's he to live on while he's doing it, especially if you and the senator get your way and his SW is slashed?

Here's hoping that the government do something about this, absolutely. I'd rather my taxes were managed more fairly and got spent on increasing hospital beds and keeping A&E services open thank you very much. Give this family what they need, not 90k a year for nothing. And how long have they been getting this amount???

Anyway let's face it, Irish people don't really know how to stand up for themselves so they'll practically take whatever is thrown at them- well, bar the elderly, the students and a minority of others who give enough of a ****. Let's see if anyone who opposes these proposed cuts care enough to get a meaningful protest going like the old age pensioners.

eanach1
29-09-2011, 11:18 AM
Also Michael O'Leary has said it's very easy to run a business, or otherwise so many people wouldn't be doing it.

barrym
29-09-2011, 12:46 PM
Could someone who is more familiar than me explain the guardian allowance thing in the OP? I would have assumed it was someone outside the family? if so, why include it in the sums?

On the overall issue, one can always find anomalous cases, it may well be that they meet all the criteria, as they stand.
There is maybe a case for adding all the allowances, taking account of the need for special equipment, 24 hours support etc., and define an upper limit.
Problem usually is that a) there is no one in the SW doing the sums b) there is no requirement to do the sums anyway; theyway the SW works is that allowances are calculated/assessed based in the internal rule book. If you meet the criteria, which are normally based on a flow diagram, i.e. single/married; sick/not sick; designated incapacitated/not; living in public housing/not..... etc., then the sums come out and are reviewed by someone higher up and ok'd or not.... mechanical process.

The joke ads about no nonsense insurance remind me of the SW system....

Add to all that the fluence exercised by Senator Harte and his daddy and their likes, over the years ...... and you get the system we have.

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2011, 01:00 PM
It was in the news this week about the Brazilians getting work permits en masse for meat factories. And these are jobs that are available all over the country. They said they can't get the Irish to work in them. And I believe them.

I did this work for two summers while I was in college packing meat off the line. Is this work not good enough for people to do? They had lots of 50 year olds working there when I was there too.

Which is easier to exploit, groups like college kids or migrants from cultures where deference and subservience are the norm or Mature local people who know their rights?

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2011, 01:03 PM
Here's hoping that the government do something about this, absolutely. I'd rather my taxes were managed more fairly and got spent on increasing hospital beds and keeping A&E services open thank you very much. Give this family what they need, not 90k a year for nothing. And how long have they been getting this amount???

Anyway let's face it, Irish people don't really know how to stand up for themselves so they'll practically take whatever is thrown at them- well, bar the elderly, the students and a minority of others who give enough of a ****. Let's see if anyone who opposes these proposed cuts care enough to get a meaningful protest going like the old age pensioners.

Does that mean that you want to cut the allowance paid to the 17 year old and move her out of her home and into a hospital bed?

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2011, 01:04 PM
Also Michael O'Leary has said it's very easy to run a business, or otherwise so many people wouldn't be doing it.

O'Leary is an attention seeking arsehole.

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2011, 01:45 PM
Could someone who is more familiar than me explain the guardian allowance thing in the OP? I would have assumed it was someone outside the family? if so, why include it in the sums?

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/BirthChildrenAndFamilies/ChildRelatedPayments/Pages/gpnc.aspx


On the overall issue, one can always find anomalous cases, it may well be that they meet all the criteria, as they stand.
There is maybe a case for adding all the allowances, taking account of the need for special equipment, 24 hours support etc., and define an upper limit.
Problem usually is that a) there is no one in the SW doing the sums b) there is no requirement to do the sums anyway; theyway the SW works is that allowances are calculated/assessed based in the internal rule book. If you meet the criteria, which are normally based on a flow diagram, i.e. single/married; sick/not sick; designated incapacitated/not; living in public housing/not..... etc., then the sums come out and are reviewed by someone higher up and ok'd or not.... mechanical process.

The joke ads about no nonsense insurance remind me of the SW system....

Add to all that the fluence exercised by Senator Harte and his daddy and their likes, over the years ...... and you get the system we have.

You could call the system mechanistic but I think it would be better to say it's clear, open and free of favouritism and corruption.

The criteria for eligibility for each benefit are published for everyone to see. If a claimant meets them they get the benefit, if they don't meet the criteria they don't.

fluffybiscuits
29-09-2011, 03:40 PM
It was in the news this week about the Brazilians getting work permits en masse for meat factories. And these are jobs that are available all over the country. They said they can't get the Irish to work in them. And I believe them.

I did this work for two summers while I was in college packing meat off the line. Is this work not good enough for people to do? They had lots of 50 year olds working there when I was there too.

That is a stance long maintained and I agree . There is some jobs out there for Irish people if they are prepared to work for them but they wont. In Tescos in Jervis St and the very same Dunnes I have seen employees well into their fifties. Lets be honest though employers in Ireland are very ageist they do have an issue with employees of a certain age .

eanach1
29-09-2011, 06:15 PM
Which is easier to exploit, groups like college kids or migrants from cultures where deference and subservience are the norm or Mature local people who know their rights?

They genuinely can't get Irish people to work in them. I know this for a fact because I actually worked in one myself (like I said), even then half of the operatives on the factory floor were Brazilian and there weren't many Irish knocking on the door looking for work. In fact I walked in, asked were there any jobs, and got taken on that same day.

The Irish just won't work when there are such massive social welfare benefits available. Some are probably waiting for the economy to turn around lol

And no, Michael O'Leary is right. Look at how many business owners there are out there, but the thing is those people will get out of the bed early in the morning.

This is a pretty sickening country right now, and it's not just the politicians, developers to blame.

Baron von Biffo
29-09-2011, 07:04 PM
The Irish just won't work when there are such massive social welfare benefits available. Some are probably waiting for the economy to turn around lol

Amazing isn't it that the Irish were happy to work up to a few years ago?

What was it do you think, Showed the light to the 450,000 on the live register that led them to give up their jobs to get the massive 188 a week dole?

eanach1
30-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Amazing isn't it that the Irish were happy to work up to a few years ago?

What was it do you think, Showed the light to the 450,000 on the live register that led them to give up their jobs to get the massive 188 a week dole?

Gosh i don't know, perhaps the fact that the dole wasn't at anything near those levels back then when I was working there had something to do with it?

You have cited the E188 a week but have neglected to mention the add-ons like rent allowance (c.50-80 a week), medical card and fuel allowance (20 a week) and other add-ons.
Hell some families are enjoying 90k net a year in welfare ;)

That 450,000 on the register right now contains long-term dole recipients who enjoy benefits for life with no cap. It's back to rational choice theory. If you are lazy and have no ambition then of course you are going to take the money and sit on your arse.

Baron von Biffo
30-09-2011, 12:42 PM
Gosh i don't know, perhaps the fact that the dole wasn't at anything near those levels back then when I was working there had something to do with it?

I asked why Irish people were happy to work up to a few years ago. That was before the dole was cut to it's present level.


You have cited the E188 a week but have neglected to mention the add-ons like rent allowance (c.50-80 a week), medical card and fuel allowance (20 a week) and other add-ons.
Hell some families are enjoying 90k net a year in welfare ;)

How many of the 450,000 on the Live Register are in rented accommodation and qualify for rent subsidy?

Being on SW doesn't automatically entitle one to a medical card. Even if a MC is granted it's only of value if you're sick. People living on tiny incomes are more likely to be sick because of poor nutrition and living conditions so the low level of the dole probably creates greater MC costs.

You are very upset about the family on 90k but you refuse to comment on the fact that all the payments except the DA for the father are available to families with a working breadwinner. More tellingly you have repeatedly refused to say which of the payments you would cut.


That 450,000 on the register right now contains long-term dole recipients who enjoy benefits for life with no cap. It's back to rational choice theory. If you are lazy and have no ambition then of course you are going to take the money and sit on your arse.

How many of the 450,000 are in that category?

barrym
01-10-2011, 03:07 PM
You could call the system mechanistic but I think it would be better to say it's clear, open and free of favouritism and corruption.

Free from corruption???? I think not, the (Labour) minister for SW has said that they have stopped a number of cases of single mother payments where she was living with the father or someone.... OK, low hanging fruit and worth a press release, but indicative.

My wife was due her pension a while back, all paid up etc., She has, like myself, EU payments, so she applied in good time, six months before the birthday.... In the week before she phoned Sligo to find out was everything was OK, after a lot of humming and hawing, she was told (directly by a public servant) to contact her TD to move it along..... She phoned one of the countries where she had made contributions (using the web site she got the name of the official delaing with her, from her ss number) and was told they had received nothing from Sligo. She got back on to Sligo and was told the file would be sent that day.... three months later it wasn't..... won't bore you with the rest but it took six months. The corruption? I discovered through contacts that almost all the staff in Sligo have 'contacts' with TDs, Co Councilors , etc., many of them got their jobs through them, and so they refer clients back as a quid pro quo.... you know the rest.


The criteria for eligibility for each benefit are published for everyone to see. If a claimant meets them they get the benefit, if they don't meet the criteria they don't.

Yes, a rightly so, but my comment was in the context of an upper limit, there is no mechanism for adding it all up. Whether there should or should not be a limit is another question.

BTW, are you and I the only ones on here today???? I think I answered you on a nother thread earlier.....;) Maybe CF employs you to wind up the likes of me with statements like 'free of corruption'

smiles
01-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Following on Joan Burton's claim that unemployment is a lifestyle choice and her slashing the winter fuel allowance, a Lab senator has now decided to put the boot into SW recipients.

Senator Jimmy Harte from Donegal launched a savage attack on a particular Dublin family over their SW payments and made a bogus comparison between their income and that of a family in employment.

The particulars claimed are -


Father's Disability Allowance - 322
Carers Allowance 380
Child Benefit 288
"Daughter (17) with special needs" 211
Guardian's Pension 286
Rent supplement 276




Are these figures actually correct though, as they dont add up for me at a quick glance... am i reading this wrong? am assuming these are weekly figures... but according to citizens information website carers allowance is maximum 358.50 pw (Over 66 caring for two people) but is only paid at half rate if you are in receipt of another SW payment.. the child benefit rate quoted would mean this family have at a guess seven children including a multiple birth (i.e twins/triplets). Again according to citizens information website disability allowance is stated as a maximum payment of 188 pw... And then rent supplement at 276 a week???? If this was true, it is the landlord that should be targeted not the family that the payment is going through.. Has anyone else checked out the validity of Hartes figures? Is it possible that these are monthly figures that have been misinterpreted as weekly?

Baron von Biffo
01-10-2011, 10:39 PM
Free from corruption???? I think not, the (Labour) minister for SW has said that they have stopped a number of cases of single mother payments where she was living with the father or someone.... OK, low hanging fruit and worth a press release, but indicative.

My wife was due her pension a while back, all paid up etc., She has, like myself, EU payments, so she applied in good time, six months before the birthday.... In the week before she phoned Sligo to find out was everything was OK, after a lot of humming and hawing, she was told (directly by a public servant) to contact her TD to move it along..... She phoned one of the countries where she had made contributions (using the web site she got the name of the official delaing with her, from her ss number) and was told they had received nothing from Sligo. She got back on to Sligo and was told the file would be sent that day.... three months later it wasn't..... won't bore you with the rest but it took six months. The corruption? I discovered through contacts that almost all the staff in Sligo have 'contacts' with TDs, Co Councilors , etc., many of them got their jobs through them, and so they refer clients back as a quid pro quo.... you know the rest.


What you're describing is a dysfunctional system, not a corrupt one.

I think it was PaddyJoe who posted in another thread that we can deploy 600 people to count toothbrushes in welfare claimant's bathrooms but only around 10 to investigate corporate fraud. That shows a warped sense of priorities but it isn't corruption.

Neither does your wife's experience with SW in Sligo show corruption. We've had a massive increase in the number of people using the Dept of SW but we're actually decreasing the number of staff available to deal with them. That leads to massive delays in processing claims.

When the SW officer told your wife to contact a TD (s)he wasn't behaving corruptly. Quite the opposite, she was trying to do your wife a kindness by letting her know that if TDs start asking questions then the case will be expedited. Again, that's dysfunctional, not corrupt. In fact what usually happens is that people get all their constituency TDs on the case.

You're also wrong to say that the staff got their jobs through political influence. Civil servants are recruited through the Public Appointments Service (previously Civil Service Commission) which is an independent body (Quango! Nepotism! Cronyism!) that is free of political interference. Canvassing by a TD will automatically disqualify a candidate. It's one part of our system that has worked well and it has ensured that we have a politically independent PS.


Yes, a rightly so, but my comment was in the context of an upper limit, there is no mechanism for adding it all up. Whether there should or should not be a limit is another question.

When you start talking about upper limits you get back to the question another poster keeps ducking - where do you make the cuts? Should families on welfare not be entitled to Child Benefit or Carers Allowance or some of the other benefits?


BTW, are you and I the only ones on here today???? I think I answered you on a nother thread earlier.....;) Maybe CF employs you to wind up the likes of me with statements like 'free of corruption'

If CF was employing me, we'd be having words about the non arrival of pay cheques. :D

barrym
03-10-2011, 10:33 AM
We're in the realm of angels on heads of pins here. Dysfunctional may include using politicians to move one up the queue, but it can also include using influence in that regard, which I would consider as bordering on corrupt, leaning towards the expectation that you will be favoured beyond your rights, a corrupt practise.

In the wider context, a properly functioning system should just work - as you said, you have your rights, you get your returns. It works like that in all the countries I've worked in, not being a 'native' I didn't have any 'in' but found the system worked efficiently. It has, unfortunately, not always been my experience in Ireland. There is an understanding in Ireland that using the TD is the way to get things done. As you said, all your constitunecy one at the same time, what a time waste. If you follow your local TDs on KildareStreet.com it is true, a large number of their questions are of the nature of requests on behalf of constituents for 'information' and/or preference.

On the OP issue, there will have to be cuts, already well trailed. If they follow the path already tread, they will mostly be of the cut the existing amounts type, just a stroke of a pen achieves the troika's requirement. There will be no attempt, despite the minister's wishes, to alter the philosophy or the structures.

Baron von Biffo
13-10-2011, 12:30 PM
Despite what right wing politicians like Burton and Harte would have us believe, the ESRI is now saying that the dole isn't the path to a life of luxury.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/esri-study-refutes-idea-that-people-are-better-off-on-dole-524137.html

eanach1
14-10-2011, 07:04 PM
Nothing the ERSI said yday contradicts the fact that the dole is a lifestyle choice for many.

antiestablishmentarian
14-10-2011, 07:10 PM
Nothing the ERSI said yday contradicts the fact that the dole is a lifestyle choice for many.

:mad: That's rubbish. Being unemployed is the most degrading experience I've ever gone through in my life, it robs you of your dignity, pride, self-esteem and worth, and if that wasn't bad enough have a go heroes like yourself seem to think that many people choose to go on the dole. Well how about this sunshine, the number of people on the live register has increased by 300,000 since 2008, do you think they all simultaneously became lazy 'parasites'? Btw, what facts have you got to contradict the ESRI report, seeing as you mentioned it and all. You seem pretty concrete in your assertion, so you must have a number of different sources. Perhaps you could share them with us.

Griska
14-10-2011, 07:23 PM
:mad: That's rubbish. Being unemployed is the most degrading experience I've ever gone through in my life, it robs you of your dignity, pride, self-esteem and worth, and if that wasn't bad enough have a go heroes like yourself seem to think that many people choose to go on the dole. Well how about this sunshine, the number of people on the live register has increased by 300,000 since 2008, do you think they all simultaneously became lazy 'parasites'? Btw, what facts have you got to contradict the ESRI report, seeing as you mentioned it and all. You seem pretty concrete in your assertion, so you must have a number of different sources. Perhaps you could share them with us.

You can ask, but you won't get them.
In fairness, Minister Burton gave people like eanach all the ammunition they need with her own unsourced generalisation.

eanach1
14-10-2011, 08:18 PM
Guys I've been unemployed myself, I know the hardship that goes with it, but if you have no debts/bills it's not a bad number now is it? I know dole lifers... they've no loans, no debts or bills, living at home, and they have no incentive to find a job. So I don't need to see an ESRI report on this. There are of course countless people on the dole who hate being on the dole and are relentless in their job/career work.

It is my opinion that if the dole was half what it is now the total number of unemployed people would decrease dramatically.

morticia
14-10-2011, 09:47 PM
It is my opinion that if the dole was half what it is now the total number of unemployed people would decrease dramatically.

There's not much in the way of jobs out there right now....the emigration rates are testament to that.

Griska
14-10-2011, 11:04 PM
There's not much in the way of jobs out there right now....the emigration rates are testament to that.

Ah morticia.
Don't be using, you know, facts.
They'll just get in the way.

antiestablishmentarian
15-10-2011, 03:17 AM
Guys I've been unemployed myself, I know the hardship that goes with it, but if you have no debts/bills it's not a bad number now is it? I know dole lifers... they've no loans, no debts or bills, living at home, and they have no incentive to find a job. So I don't need to see an ESRI report on this. There are of course countless people on the dole who hate being on the dole and are relentless in their job/career work.

It is my opinion that if the dole was half what it is now the total number of unemployed people would decrease dramatically.
Isn't it? Try surviving on it in a country with the 5th highest prices in the EU. You'll find it won't get you very far. Also, could you please tell me which sectors it's possible for people to get jobs in if the dole were slashed? I spent 4 months looking for work before emigration and I found SFA in the way of anything for people who have no trade or skills. The only jobs available are in things like cloud computing, or languages (and I mean obscure languages, like the ads for Danish speakers in Tallaght...) which many unemployed are not qualified to do. It's impossible to even get a job in Penneys at the moment, so I fail to see how cutting the dole will do anything except increase poverty and misery.

fluffybiscuits
16-10-2011, 12:27 PM
The prices have not come down in anyways to match that of wages and this is especially true for rent. People are still renting out rooms for ridicilous prices (eg 450 quid a month for a double room near town!)! where as house prices have crashed and are not set to bottom out till last quarter of 2012. Im working full time and finding things very tight, I watch money like a hawk for example shopping I'll always choose own brand unless I know its a very very bad product. Im not saying I want money to spend left right and centre as Im content but I can understand someone being on a budget these days and having to stick to it big time.

Actually antiestablish. the two areas you mentioned there in relation to languages and computing are two areas where there is incredible skill shortages. My brother has gone back to college to do cloud computing in the hope of getting a job with twitter in their new Dublin HQ, google or facebook!