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fluffybiscuits
20-09-2011, 12:57 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14706309

Excellent article as always by the BBC . It details the interviews translated by Howard Triest whom interviewed Hess and others during their trials after World War 2. What makes it even more engaging was the man himself, Triest, was able to put aside any anger and any pain that he had and interview them to understand them best as he can. He gives some good insight into the minds of those, most chillingly he describes some of them as being like neighbours and regular next door types.


"If you took away the names of these Nazis, and just sat down to talk to them, they were like your friends and neighbours."

concernedparent
20-09-2011, 02:53 PM
I recently watched an excellent adaptation of Conspiracy concerning the Wannsee Conference. It starred Kenneth Branagh as Reinhard Heydrich and it covers the Wannsee Conference where the Nazis determined the fate of millions of Jews in 'The Final Solution'.

The most terrifying thing was the whole attitude of the assembled. The so called hierarchy of the Nazi 'civil service'. They managed to make the planned extermination of millions of people, based on race, seem like a logistical issue.

Watching it, one would have to remind oneself that it was humanity they were referring to.

fluffybiscuits
20-09-2011, 02:55 PM
I recently watched an excellent adaptation of Conspiracy concerning the Wannsee Conference. It starred Kenneth Branagh as Reinhard Heydrich and it covers the Wannsee Conference where the Nazis determined the fate of millions of Jews in 'The Final Solution'.

The most terrifying thing was the whole attitude of the assembled. The so called hierarchy of the Nazi 'civil service'. They managed to make the planned extermination of millions of people, based on race, seem like a logistical issue.

Watching it, one would have to remind oneself that it was humanity they were referring to.

I think its the sheer psycopathic attitude that they took which scares a lot of people. As you say they made it a logistical issue and made it out as if it was an every day issue. It was their lack of empathy which made them so callous and cold , the Nazis were not humans I believe, no human should be capable of thinking like that.

Lapsedmethodist
20-09-2011, 03:21 PM
I think its the sheer psycopathic attitude that they took which scares a lot of people. As you say they made it a logistical issue and made it out as if it was an every day issue. It was their lack of empathy which made them so callous and cold , the Nazis were not humans I believe, no human should be capable of thinking like that.

Saw documentary " WW2 IN COLOUR" recently. Showed letters from young Germans who wrote to their parents about having to get on with the "task" of shooting Jews en masse. One of them said that his men were finding it hard going and that one of them had commited suicide, but that he was feeling up to it himself. Chilling stuff.

fluffybiscuits
20-09-2011, 03:25 PM
Saw documentary " WW2 IN COLOUR" recently. Showed letters from young Germans who wrote to their parents about having to get on with the "task" of shooting Jews en masse. One of them said that his men were finding it hard going and that one of them had commited suicide, but that he was feeling up to it himself. Chilling stuff.

Would it show the power of propoganda? Something like shooting Jews becomes normalised through the twisted ideas of a party?

concernedparent
20-09-2011, 03:44 PM
I read a book about a year ago, fiction narrative, but background events based on what happened in Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

In the story the reader is given an opportunity to see how Nazi ideology crept insidiously into everyday life in Germany.

First it was the institutionalisation of anyone who was 'different' whether socially or intellectually. Disability was dealt with by removing people from 'normal' society and institutionalising them for 'better' care and treatment.

It then moved to people of different ideologies that didn't comply with Nazi thinking: communists, journalists believing in freedom of the press. Even Christians that objected to the treatment of the above.

They finally moved onto the Jewish people. The force feeding of propaganda that they were responsible for the financial state of the country and the drip, drip effect of the escalation of the acts perpetrated by the Nazi's, left people inured to the effect of what was going on in their country.

Baron von Biffo
20-09-2011, 04:20 PM
I read a book about a year ago, fiction narrative, but background events based on what happened in Nazi Germany in the 1930's.

In the story the reader is given an opportunity to see how Nazi ideology crept insidiously into everyday life in Germany.

First it was the institutionalisation of anyone who was 'different' whether socially or intellectually. Disability was dealt with by removing people from 'normal' society and institutionalising them for 'better' care and treatment.

It then moved to people of different ideologies that didn't comply with Nazi thinking: communists, journalists believing in freedom of the press. Even Christians that objected to the treatment of the above.

They finally moved onto the Jewish people. The force feeding of propaganda that they were responsible for the financial state of the country and the drip, drip effect of the escalation of the acts perpetrated by the Nazi's, left people inured to the effect of what was going on in their country.


It doesn't take much for ordinary people to turn a blind eye or to justify participation in terrible crimes.

We recoil in horror at the atrocities of the SS guards in the camps but the camps would never have had so many victims if train drivers and other railway staff didn't co-operate.

concernedparent
20-09-2011, 05:47 PM
"All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do stand by and do nothing."

I wonder how many of us could say we would stand up and be counted should the situation arise.

20 yards of linen=1 coat
20-09-2011, 07:40 PM
I think its the sheer psycopathic attitude that they took which scares a lot of people. It was their lack of empathy which made them so callous and cold , the Nazis were not humans I believe, no human should be capable of thinking like that.

Heard an interview with Philip K Dick where he was saying that he had the idea for Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (the book Bladerunner was adapted from) at a time when there were some prominent Nazi war criminals being discovered in South America. He was wondering at what point the line is crossed where the people who chase down these war criminals in order to kill them because they are "inhuman" (lacking empathy), become inhuman themselves. It really stuck in my mind as an important problem.

Buddha
20-09-2011, 10:17 PM
I think that everyday, if you are really listening, and learning, one can see how and why the horrors of the 3rd. Reich came about. The way people accept what is told them. The anger and the fury at those who look different, and for Gays, behave differently from the norm is evident everywhere. Sometimes I think we would never go down that route again, but of course we have and we do, as humans, all the time.

Even person to person one can see it. I have never used Facebook, for instance, but I know from chatting with people who do, and from T.V. chat shows and sites like PW how bloody quickly and nastily, hostility, no, pure hatred, for someone who has been maligned by someone else grows and all fuelled by people who know nothing about the person being attacked. It's horrible. It's scary and to me it shows how desperately people seem to need to "fit in" and not stand out at all and be different. So many people talk about how evil the Germans must have been, but really, it was a coming together of poverty, a need to find a scapegoat, a charismatic leader, and ruthless opportunity grabbers, and it could happen anywhere. IMO

concernedparent
20-09-2011, 10:30 PM
I am afraid Buddha that I must concur with your summary.

Its a subject that I am interested in for various reasons and the over whelming opinion I have formed is that given the right melting point of circumstances, that the same situation could arise again.

'In the Garden of Beasts' is an excellent read on this subject. Based on the Diaries of the American Ambassador to Germany in the 1930's the financial situation facing Germany then is remarkably similar to the one facing Ireland now.

Compulsive reading.

Baron von Biffo
20-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I think that everyday, if you are really listening, and learning, one can see how and why the horrors of the 3rd. Reich came about. The way people accept what is told them. The anger and the fury at those who look different, and for Gays, behave differently from the norm is evident everywhere. Sometimes I think we would never go down that route again, but of course we have and we do, as humans, all the time.

Even person to person one can see it. I have never used Facebook, for instance, but I know from chatting with people who do, and from T.V. chat shows and sites like PW how bloody quickly and nastily, hostility, no, pure hatred, for someone who has been maligned by someone else grows and all fuelled by people who know nothing about the person being attacked. It's horrible. It's scary and to me it shows how desperately people seem to need to "fit in" and not stand out at all and be different. So many people talk about how evil the Germans must have been, but really, it was a coming together of poverty, a need to find a scapegoat, a charismatic leader, and ruthless opportunity grabbers, and it could happen anywhere. IMO

Often it's not even hatred but indifference that allows morally bankrupt regimes to commit atrocities. For example, the people working in Shannon Airport probably don't hate the unfortunates being flown through there for torture by the Americans - They just don't care so long as the dollars flow in.

Lapsedmethodist
20-09-2011, 10:57 PM
Would it show the power of propoganda? Something like shooting Jews becomes normalised through the twisted ideas of a party?

It tok precious little propaganda to get the Germans moving on the subject of anti-semitism. It was rife in Europe at the time. Don't forget that Hitler was clever enough to do it in stages, racial laws, property laws, and then the deportations "resettlement in the East " and then once the Jews were distant from Germany the killings began.
Anti-semites are usually quite devious - the One State Solution being their latest ploy seeming as it does to envisage a situation where a minority of Jews will be allowed to live peacefully in Palestine.
Realists of course - not being anti-semites - will be in favour of a separate state for the Palestinians.

fluffybiscuits
21-09-2011, 02:58 PM
It tok precious little propaganda to get the Germans moving on the subject of anti-semitism. It was rife in Europe at the time. Don't forget that Hitler was clever enough to do it in stages, racial laws, property laws, and then the deportations "resettlement in the East " and then once the Jews were distant from Germany the killings began.
Anti-semites are usually quite devious - the One State Solution being their latest ploy seeming as it does to envisage a situation where a minority of Jews will be allowed to live peacefully in Palestine.
Realists of course - not being anti-semites - will be in favour of a separate state for the Palestinians.

Well propoganda certainly helped at the time. People were feeling disenfranchised as a result of the Treaty of Versailles and the deutchmark crashing. I do agree though his devious methods contributed a lot at the time.

fluffybiscuits
21-09-2011, 02:59 PM
Often it's not even hatred but indifference that allows morally bankrupt regimes to commit atrocities. For example, the people working in Shannon Airport probably don't hate the unfortunates being flown through there for torture by the Americans - They just don't care so long as the dollars flow in.

Getting people to care is the hard part I find...

C. Flower
21-09-2011, 05:17 PM
Realists of course - not being anti-semites - will be in favour of a separate state for the Palestinians.

So, you think people who want no borders and equality for all are anti semitic ?

Buddha
21-09-2011, 06:18 PM
I am afraid Buddha that I must concur with your summary.

Its a subject that I am interested in for various reasons and the over whelming opinion I have formed is that given the right melting point of circumstances, that the same situation could arise again.

'In the Garden of Beasts' is an excellent read on this subject. Based on the Diaries of the American Ambassador to Germany in the 1930's the financial situation facing Germany then is remarkably similar to the one facing Ireland now.

Compulsive reading.

I will read that book CP, as soon as I get hold of it, thanks. Oscar Wilde whom I seem to be quoting non-stop nowadays for some peculiar reason said "I think God overestimated himself when he made man". I say that man is the reason why anyone who believes in a God is living in lala land.

Assam
22-09-2011, 12:42 AM
"the banality of evil" indeed.

Have been reading about the extermination of the Jews in Vienna and Odessa recently (in The Hare With Amber Eyes ), incidentally reinforced by this week's dramatisation of Life and Fate by the Russian / Ukrainian Jewish journalist Vasily Grossman. Hope you can download the podcasts from this, they are worth it -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/life-and-fate/

The BBC seem to have thrown a lot of resources at this one. It includes Kenneth Branagh, who was very good in that Wannsee drama mentioned above.

I could link to loads of stories of the current rise in anti-Semitism across Europe, not least in France, where it has been both virulent and also covered up to a large extent.

fluffybiscuits
22-09-2011, 04:16 PM
"the banality of evil" indeed.

Have been reading about the extermination of the Jews in Vienna and Odessa recently (in The Hare With Amber Eyes ), incidentally reinforced by this week's dramatisation of Life and Fate by the Russian / Ukrainian Jewish journalist Vasily Grossman. Hope you can download the podcasts from this, they are worth it -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/features/life-and-fate/

The BBC seem to have thrown a lot of resources at this one. It includes Kenneth Branagh, who was very good in that Wannsee drama mentioned above.

I could link to loads of stories of the current rise in anti-Semitism across Europe, not least in France, where it has been both virulent and also covered up to a large extent.



Hi mate, could you throw us a few links would be interested in that. thanks!

Fermoy
23-09-2011, 10:23 AM
I could link to loads of stories of the current rise in anti-Semitism across Europe, not least in France, where it has been both virulent and also covered up to a large extent.

Thats true.
France is doing a bad anti semitic number of the Muslim folks with the Burqa ban bullshit eh .

Lapsedmethodist
23-09-2011, 01:29 PM
Thats true.
France is doing a bad anti semitic number of the Muslim folks with the Burqa ban bullshit eh .

Why are you trying to derail the thread ? This thread is not about burkas or their banning.

Fermoy
23-09-2011, 01:34 PM
Why are you trying to derail the thread ? This thread is not about burkas or their banning.
My reply was to the post that it replied to .
The one about the rise of anti-semitism in Europe . My reply was about the rise of anti-semitism in Europe .
What part of that is beyond your comprehension ?

fluffybiscuits
23-09-2011, 02:55 PM
Anyone see the news about a French IPhone App that was banned in France? It asked the user to guess if a particular French politician was Jewish or not Jewish

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-brad-hirschfield/jew-not-jew-french-app-ban_b_968218.html

The article makes reference to a sweeping tide of anti semitism in France.

Kid Ryder
23-09-2011, 03:24 PM
Why are you trying to derail the thread ? This thread is not about burkas or their banning.

Sez the man derailing this thread with the 'one-state solution' and setting up false equivalences thereby.

The restraint of the interpreter regarding his feelings for the Nazis under his watch and that he had confidence in the Allied treatment of them stands in contrast to many other Jewish Allied servicemen of the time, who acted on their impulses (very understandable, though) and killed actual or suspected high- and middle-ranking Nazis as a form of revenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam). Feelings immediately after the war were high, and many men appointed themselves as angels of vengeance. While I'd have some sympathies with those who delivered judgement and sentence 'unofficially' (but not with those who proposed to randomly mass-murder Germans to the number of 6,000,000), Mr. Triest's ability to stay his own hand in such circumstances is commendable.

fluffybiscuits
23-09-2011, 03:49 PM
Sez the man derailing this thread with the 'one-state solution' and setting up false equivalences thereby.

The restraint of the interpreter regarding his feelings for the Nazis under his watch and that he had confidence in the Allied treatment of them stands in contrast to many other Jewish Allied servicemen of the time, who acted on their impulses (very understandable, though) and killed actual or suspected high- and middle-ranking Nazis as a form of revenge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam). Feelings immediately after the war were high, and many men appointed themselves as angels of vengeance. While I'd have some sympathies with those who delivered judgement and sentence 'unofficially' (but not with those who proposed to randomly mass-murder Germans to the number of 6,000,000), Mr. Triest's ability to stay his own hand in such circumstances is commendable.

It must have been, its a mark of a man whom showed great restraint in a time when it was very very hard to do such a thing. I would msyelf have been reactionary and torn him limb from limb if I was the interpreter.

concernedparent
23-09-2011, 09:48 PM
I feel that I would have been reactionary too.

To show such forbearance in the face of such barbarity is the sign of a truly remarkable human being.