Removing borders

[fluffybiscuits]

This question was lifted from a post but was something I was dwelling on .


is the nation state, nationalism and maybe even the idea of nationality something that is holding back humanity, something that has out grown its use?

Is it time to remove the borders that divide humanity and hinder progress. Centralised government can control people and create an uneven divide thereby alienating a lot of sections of society. If we were to as Marx more or less said, work together to create a proleteriat is not simply a proleteriat but more simply a functioning human being, would getting rid of borders help us in this way? The right wing are scared of this idea I think myself as it means that they would be required to share whatever wealth they have accumalated over the years with the working class average Joe Soap. This would tie in with my belief that Im a citizen of humanity, not Ireland.

[C. Flower]

I hope you don't mind, fluffybiscuits, that I've moved this into our new UTOPIA forum: it seemed the ideal first thread for it.

This is something I think about sometimes, and wonder what would happen if borders were removed, and what kind of world we would have to have so that borders wouldn't be needed.

Relatively equal opportunities and living standards ? Do borders make us feel more secure or make people on the other side more "other" ?

[morticia]

Relatively equal opportunities and living standards ?

International tax/finance/currency agreements, too. Free trade. Fiscal transfers. There will be problems with all that though.... just look at the eurozone.

But equal ops/living standards would certainly help

[fluffybiscuits]

Well I thought about it often enough, how would it work? Well we need to remove the need for nationality and borders and create a global system that enables people to live and work together. Captialism has made people materialistic so they will try and protect whatever riches they have in order to ensure they dont have to share it, this is where it gets tricky. Racists, xenophobes and those with a financial interest in this country and creating a proleteriat on low wages will be scared of change and try and ensure there is some sort of support for their elite ideas. This could manifest itself as civil war but if enough people can create a peaceful world then we can all live in harmony

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

yes- bring back Pamela! I miss her and her storytelling ways!

[fluffybiscuits]

Well she would have a right to abode anywhere :) Ireland would be Nigeria and vice versa!

[Fermoy]

Well she would have a right to abode anywhere :) Ireland would be Nigeria and vice versa!
The english removed the border between england and Ireland for some hundreds of years .
How did that one work out ?

:p

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

i understand the theory and it is this one that I was referring to in the thread about the notorious Pamela and her career in legal fiction when I said that behind the objections to deporting her would be support by those on the left who believe there should be no borders and who see them as a hindrance to the opportunities afforded to the global worker.

It is a paradox that this is where socialist theory and globalisation meet. Within unions though for the socialist this will be resisted because of the effect of wage agreement busting immigration on existing pay scales and also by globalisation fanboys in the corporations because their tax havens and opportunities to manipulate their corporate profile internationally to lower global tax bills would disappear.

Politics makes strange bedfellows and on this theory we would find union leaders and corporate tax dodgers like IBEC cuddled up together.

[C. Flower]

This question was lifted from a post but was something I was dwelling on .



Is it time to remove the borders that divide humanity and hinder progress. Centralised government can control people and create an uneven divide thereby alienating a lot of sections of society. If we were to as Marx more or less said, work together to create a proletariat is not simply a proletariat but more simply a functioning human being, would getting rid of borders help us in this way? The right wing are scared of this idea I think myself as it means that they would be required to share whatever wealth they have accumulated over the years with the working class average Joe Soap. This would tie in with my belief that Im a citizen of humanity, not Ireland.



I think that the interesting thing you are posing is the possibility of a "functioning human being" - in the case of borders, human beings existing not in terms of who we are not but by our being human, and also freely able to move around the planet.

[fluffybiscuits]

i understand the theory and it is this one that I was referring to in the thread about the notorious Pamela and her career in legal fiction when I said that behind the objections to deporting her would be support by those on the left who believe there should be no borders and who see them as a hindrance to the opportunities afforded to the global worker.

It is a paradox that this is where socialist theory and globalisation meet. Within unions though for the socialist this will be resisted because of the effect of wage agreement busting immigration on existing pay scales and also by globalisation fanboys in the corporations because their tax havens and opportunities to manipulate their corporate profile internationally to lower global tax bills would disappear.

Politics makes strange bedfellows and on this theory we would find union leaders and corporate tax dodgers like IBEC cuddled up together.

Well unions want better pay for us and a lower cost of living, I would envisage that within this context that if we did get rid of borders wages would plummet but the cost of living would too as we would have more people to sell our goods to (bit capitalistic there!) and a bigger market. But you are correct they are strange bedfellows!

[fluffybiscuits]

I think that the interesting thing you are posing is the possibility of a "functioning human being" - in the case of borders, human beings existing not in terms of who we are not but by our being human, and also freely able to move around the planet.



Bang on there CF, its about recognising the person and ensuring we are living as humans but not on the basis because we are humans but because we are existing self concious beings (I am not sure if I phrased that correctly slight hangover today!). Capitalism would just make us worker drones, it just turns us into dehumanised slaves. Its a bit like the Terminators vs the Humans with the Humans being the socialists and well the the Terminators being products of capitalism looking to exterminate humanity.

[fluffybiscuits]

http://www.noborderstockholm.org/

Camp without borders event taking place in Stockholm - why cant I be there!

[riposte]

I thought this thread was going to be about flower-beds.

[C. Flower]

I thought this thread was going to be about flower-beds.

Or dressmaking.

[C. Flower]

Bang on there CF, its about recognising the person and ensuring we are living as humans but not on the basis because we are humans but because we are existing self concious beings (I am not sure if I phrased that correctly slight hangover today!). Capitalism would just make us worker drones, it just turns us into dehumanised slaves. Its a bit like the Terminators vs the Humans with the Humans being the socialists and well the the Terminators being products of capitalism looking to exterminate humanity.

Yes, we are all squashed into little compartments like eggs in egg boxes, by gender, nation, religion, social class and not able to just be people.

[fluffybiscuits]

Or dressmaking.

or excel spreadsheets :)

[fluffybiscuits]

Yes, we are all squashed into little compartments like eggs in egg boxes, by gender, nation, religion, social class and not able to just be people.

dictated to by a minority...