9/11 Revisted "The 11th Day" - Saudi and CIA aspects

[C. Flower]

The authors of "The 11th Day" have just been interviewed by Miriam O'Callaghan on RTE (Radio 1).


http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-r1-todaywithpatkenny.smil


It would be worth listening to the interview, which includes recordings of communications between the ground and one of the planes, and a good discussion on truth versus conspiracy theory. The approach is research based and forensic, and the authors reputable.

They found that none of the spectacular theories of bombs in the buildings etc. have any foundation, but does find that Al Qaeda was funded by the Saudi Government, a government very close to the US, and that Saudi officials were directly involved in providing practical support to the conspiracy.

They also said that there were failures on the part of the CIA that are inexplicable.

I'll be ordering this one up from the library.

Synopsis

With access to thousands of recently released official documents, fresh interviews and the perspective that can come only from a decade of research and reflection, Anthony Summers and Robbyn Swan have written the most complete and definitive account of 9/11 we may ever read.

For millions in the West, September 11, 2001 is the darkest day in living memory. The terrible attacks in America sent a shock around the world that reverberate to this day. Ten years on, Osama bin Laden is dead, but the questions remain. What exactly happened on 9/11? Could it have been prevented? How and why did so much acrimony and bad information arise from the ashes of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and a quiet field in Pennsylvania? And what remains unresolved?

The Eleventh Day investigates the response of President Bush and the U.S. military, and the failure to intercept the hijacked airliners. It documents the inaccurate official stories told afterwards, considers the contentions of the ‘9/11 Truth’ movement, analyses the motives behind the onslaught, exposes the blunders by U.S. intelligence before the attacks, and notes how the Bush administration tried groundlessly to link Iraq to 9/11. And the book confronts the question the 9/11 Commission failed to answer: were the terrorists backed by powerful figures in other foreign nations?

Riveting, revelatory and unforgettable, The Eleventh Day is the essential one-volume work on a pivotal episode in our history.

[Griska]

I'll listen to the interview later, but any reprieve from the "no planes" theory would be extremely welcome.

[Skrimshander]

I'll listen to the interview later, but any reprieve from the "no planes" theory would be extremely welcome.

ah Griska, your not on e of them rhere crazy coincidence theorists are ya?:D:D:D

[Skrimshander]

Just listened to the interview and I have to say anyone who believes in any one of the many 911 conspiracies is not going to have their mind changed, from what I heard. Maybe the book is more enlightening as it isnt a very long interview.. the point made at the end of the interview with regard to how the building collapsed not looking like a controlled demolition as the explosives didn't start on the ground floor plays directly into a lot of the alternative theories hands....

[C. Flower]

Just listened to the interview and I have to say anyone who believes in any one of the many 911 conspiracies is not going to have their mind changed, from what I heard. Maybe the book is more enlightening as it isnt a very long interview.. the point made at the end of the interview with regard to how the building collapsed not looking like a controlled demolition as the explosives didn't start on the ground floor plays directly into a lot of the alternative theories hands....

What is far more interesting I think is what they did establish to be fact.
Why is it that the US bombed Afghanistan, if it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy ?

[TotalMayhem]

Why is it that the US bombed Afghanistan, if it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy ?

Secondary target... besides, the Saudi Royals are good people in general and having the Taliban control a gas pipeline and do away with the opium production in Afghanistan made it a very easy choice.

[Skrimshander]

What is far more interesting I think is what they did establish to be fact.
Why is it that the US bombed Afghanistan, if it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy ?

Indeed. Actually now that I think about it wasnt that( the Saudi connection) a major part of Moore's movie at the time..maybe I 'm remembering it wrong.. Must give it another look

[Sidewinder]

Indeed. Actually now that I think about it wasnt that( the Saudi connection) a major part of Moore's movie at the time..maybe I 'm remembering it wrong.. Must give it another look

Fear not, your memory is not failing you

Fahrenheit 9_11 (Part 3) - YouTube

[Kev Bar]

I'll listen to the interview later, but any reprieve from the "no planes" theory would be extremely welcome.


Well we can all take a bow/beat our chests as the 9/11 conspiracy theories are "the children of the internet age."


Interesting point that first "controlled explosion" post went up that afternoon.


Wonder how long it took for Jim to dig in.

[C. Flower]

Well we can all take a bow/beat our chests as the 9/11 conspiracy theories are "the children of the internet age."


Interesting point that first "controlled explosion" post went up that afternoon.


Wonder how long it took for Jim to dig in.

The maturity of the internet age arrives when people online can differentiate between research / a scientific approach and pure fantasy.

This book seems to have drawn the line in the right place.

[Count Bobulescu]

I haven’t listened to the interview yet, clicked the link and got Miriam with Robert Fisk on Libya, plus a “risky connection blocked” message.

I hope Miriam wasn’t being risqué with Robert, so I’ll keep my comment to this for now. In the 4-5 days after 9/11 when all air traffic in the US was shut down, it has been reliably reported, without any contradiction that I’m aware of, that one aircraft was given permission to depart. It contained only members of the extended Saudi Royal Family.

Pre 9/11, there is a well documented history of tightness between the Bush and Saudi Royal families. The Saudi Ambassador at the time, had been here for twenty years, name escapes me, was known as the Dean of the Diplomats. Sleazy SOB. Alleged to have received $200m under the table from BAE for award of contract.

[Griska]

I haven’t listened to the interview yet, clicked the link and got Miriam with Robert Fisk on Libya, plus a “risky connection blocked” message.

I hope Miriam wasn’t being risqué with Robert, so I’ll keep my comment to this for now. In the 4-5 days after 9/11 when all air traffic in the US was shut down, it has been reliably reported, without any contradiction that I’m aware of, that one aircraft was given permission to depart. It contained only members of the extended Saudi Royal Family.

Pre 9/11, there is a well documented history of tightness between the Bush and Saudi Royal families. The Saudi Ambassador at the time, had been here for twenty years, name escapes me, was known as the Dean of the Diplomats. Sleazy SOB. Alleged to have received $200m under the table from BAE for award of contract.

I believe members of the bin Laden family were allowed to leave the country on that occasion.

[Count Bobulescu]

I believe members of the bin Laden family were allowed to leave the country on that occasion.
Can't confirm that, but there is no love lost between the Saudi Royals and the Bin Laden family, so they would be unlikely to be on the same aircraft.

[Kev Bar]

Can't confirm that, but there is no love lost between the Saudi Royals and the Bin Laden family, so they would be unlikely to be on the same aircraft.

Pretty sure it has been well documented ... Vanity Fair I think covered it in detail...that members of the Bin Laden family flew out during that period.

Members who were tight with both the Bush and House of Saud dynasties.

But come on. Let's not drop too much acid.

If I was a Bush, I would prefer them home than embarassingly in my backyard.

And that's before I thought about them as a security risk.

(Not addressed to anyone above) The problem with conspiracy theorists is they often think a lump of soap bar is Operation Julie.

Count....family is a big word. You could support and contradict that argument in the same way Fisk highlights the supposed Saudi decitizenship of Osama had both supporters and opponents.

[Apjp]

Usa has been hijacking cuban planes for decades. Their govt., run by corporate fascists, cannot possibly care about a few thousand american and foreign victims. They didnt care about german, vietnamese, korean, cambodian, iraqi or afghani civilians anyways. The west is more sick than the east as it only offers more.poverty, less freedom under the banner of the free world. Hitler would be proud of such ethnic cleansing and general genocide.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

[random new yorker]

Just listened to the interview and I have to say anyone who believes in any one of the many 911 conspiracies is not going to have their mind changed, from what I heard. Maybe the book is more enlightening as it isnt a very long interview.. the point made at the end of the interview with regard to how the building collapsed not looking like a controlled demolition as the explosives didn't start on the ground floor plays directly into a lot of the alternative theories hands....


The Controlled Explosion Theory. I saw the South Tower fall and can guarantee we did not see any such explosions before the building collapsed. Just before it happened we could only see the huge columns of black smoke heading towards Brooklyn, we started to comment It looks like the firemen have got the situation under control (we couldn't see much fire anymore)...as we discussed the possible political outcomes the building simply pancaked top down, we all froze in place and very quickly the building was on the ground. In a state of hypnotic shock we left. No one waited to see the second tower fall.

Fire on Steel: Steel is mostly iron. Iron is a metal. People have been melting metal with fire for at least 7000 years. really not so hard to understand why the steel structure in the floors that were hit by the plane crumbled. And then everything else crumbled under the weight of what fell from above.

[random new yorker]

The authors of "The 11th Day" have just been interviewed by Miriam O'Callaghan on RTE (Radio 1).


http://www.rte.ie/radio1/player_av.html?0,null,200,http://dynamic.rte.ie/quickaxs/209-r1-todaywithpatkenny.smil

They also said that there were failures on the part of the CIA that are inexplicable.

[/I]

The rules that govern american federal agencies are extremely complicated, peculiar and specific to each agency. One hand doesn’t necessarily talk to the other. I am not at all surprised that one agency had info (probably waiting on vetting...) and did not pass it along to the other. That certainly was the way business was run before Sept 11.

[random new yorker]

What is far more interesting I think is what they did establish to be fact.
Why is it that the US bombed Afghanistan, if it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy ?

I'll try to get the book just to read that one bit. The facts?
Lets keep in mind that in this case "The Facts" could simply be declarations of people's perceptions of what was going on.
If it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy...not surprising but will be interesting to read what they say...

[random new yorker]

Can't confirm that, but there is no love lost between the Saudi Royals and the Bin Laden family, so they would be unlikely to be on the same aircraft.

I recall the Bin Laden family leaving before week's end. I think friday, if my memory serves me well. I remember thinking at the time Good! before some retaliatory killing takes place.... At the time it was impossible to predict how ‘We The People’ would react to such a brutal attack. That was one good decision Bush made, as far as i’m concerned.

[C. Flower]

I'll try to get the book just to read that one bit. The facts?
Lets keep in mind that in this case "The Facts" could simply be declarations of people's perceptions of what was going on.
If it was Saudi Arabia that took part in the conspiracy...not surprising but will be interesting to read what they say...

Writing about acts that have been carried out in secrecy is always a particular challenge as the data is very rarely complete.

[Ogrinnn]

Usa has been hijacking cuban planes for decades. Their govt., run by corporate fascists, cannot possibly care about a few thousand american and foreign victims. They didnt care about german, vietnamese, korean, cambodian, iraqi or afghani civilians anyways. The west is more sick than the east as it only offers more.poverty, less freedom under the banner of the free world. Hitler would be proud of such ethnic cleansing and general genocide.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

Anybody with an ounce of sensitivity knows that the emotional aftershock from the awful events of 9/11 continues - its too easy to wrap the discussion up in these kind of slogans. US citizens and the many Irish people who lost relatives and friends deserve a more considered and nuanced approach surely!

[random new yorker]

Writing about acts that have been carried out in secrecy is always a particular challenge as the data is very rarely complete.

nice quote! :)

[rebellin]

I haven’t listened to the interview yet, clicked the link and got Miriam with Robert Fisk on Libya, plus a “risky connection blocked” message.

I hope Miriam wasn’t being risqué with Robert, so I’ll keep my comment to this for now. In the 4-5 days after 9/11 when all air traffic in the US was shut down, it has been reliably reported, without any contradiction that I’m aware of, that one aircraft was given permission to depart. It contained only members of the extended Saudi Royal Family.

Pre 9/11, there is a well documented history of tightness between the Bush and Saudi Royal families. The Saudi Ambassador at the time, had been here for twenty years, name escapes me, was known as the Dean of the Diplomats. Sleazy SOB. Alleged to have received $200m under the table from BAE for award of contract.

I am glad to say, after sparring with the Count quite a bit, that here he is bringing up "well documented history" on some issues that should mot be overlooked 1) The Dean of the diplomats whose name escaped the count was Prince Bandar, a very sleazy SOB indeed. 2) The background of the BAE scandals that occured in many counties is not to be overlooked 3/The tightness between the Saudi Royal Family and the Bushes. These are not "conspiracy" issues, but are background no competent anylist should overlook.

[Fermoy]

Fire on Steel: Steel is mostly iron. Iron is a metal. People have been melting metal with fire for at least 7000 years. really not so hard to understand why the steel structure in the floors that were hit by the plane crumbled. And then everything else crumbled under the weight of what fell from above.


Kerosene does not burn hot enough to melt steel

[Fodla32]

There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of 9/11s over the last ten years. A million people murdered by Anglo-Saxon genocide in Iraq alone. This obsession with one particular atrocity is pointless. If the US government didn't actually arrange the bombing themselves, they set up the circumstances for it to happen - by their criminal activities all over the world.

[fluffybiscuits]

There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of 9/11s over the last ten years. A million people murdered by Anglo-Saxon genocide in Iraq alone. This obsession with one particular atrocity is pointless. If the US government didn't actually arrange the bombing themselves, they set up the circumstances for it to happen - by their criminal activities all over the world.

Now I am not too sure I agree with that. I know you are a staunch nationalist a chara but lets put things in perspective. Would that not be like saying that we deserved the Monaghan bombings by the British as bombed part of Britian? I mean like for like etc? The UVF at the time said they were at war with us after a programme broadcast by ITV pointed the finger at them . So by using the logic we are applying to the Americans we deserved the Monoghan bombings? After all the IRA bombed Britian to pieces...

BTW I agree with you on the point about it being genocide, to term it such as you did I believe was correct.

[Count Bobulescu]

Where possible, I avoid thread inflation, so I'll park this here for now. Am trying to limit the Best of US Media thread to just Radio and TV stuff. Electronic print can go anywhere.
As the US prepares for a glut of 10th anniversary 9-11 remembrances one guy at FP drew up his list 10 events from the last decade more important/influential than 9-11. A page of set-up and then a graph on each. Don’t cheat, countdown.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/08/29/the_black_hole_of_911

[random new yorker]

Kerosene does not burn hot enough to melt steel

Oh boy! someone above in the threat mentioned how no amount of critical thinking would actually serve to convince true conspiracy theorists..or something in that regard.

However, one must always try.

How about the blast from the plane hitting the tower blowing all the protective fire-retardant insulation out of the way....then the fire takes care of the rest...would that help??

Geez and now you make me go check with my engineer friends if 260-315 °C (500-599 °F) of open air burning temperature of this jet fuel kerosene is enough to melt iron? What do you think?

[Fermoy]

Oh boy! someone above in the threat mentioned how no amount of critical thinking would actually serve to convince ..or something in that regard.

However, one must always try.

How about the blast from the plane hitting the tower blowing all the protective fire-retardant insulation out of the way....then the fire takes care of the rest...would that help??

Geez and now you make me go check with my engineer friends if 260-315 °C (500-599 °F) of open air burning temperature of this jet fuel kerosene is enough to melt iron? What do you think?
If you wish to reply to my posts , do me the honour of keeping your issues re. true conspiracy theorists out of your posts.

Just stick to the facts .

[random new yorker]

If you wish to reply to my posts , do me the honour of keeping your issues re. true conspiracy theorists out of your posts.

Just stick to the facts .

Sorry about the misguided generalization....

However, any of the facts above any good for you?

[Fermoy]

Sorry about the misguided generalization....

However, any of the facts above any good for you?
You have yet to supply facts .

[random new yorker]

You have yet to supply facts .

Humm err...maybe the answer to that is: experiment! you get some iron together in your back yard, you get yourself some kerosene jet fuel grade, you burn it carefully, don't forget to measure the temp of the heat, and then you count the time until it melts.

G-d forbid you come up with the same 60-100 min that took for those towers to fall after the planes hit.

Deal?

[Fermoy]

Humm err...maybe the answer to that is: experiment! you get some iron together in your back yard, you get yourself some kerosene jet fuel grade, you burn it carefully, don't forget to measure the temp of the heat, and then you count the time until it melts.

G-d forbid you come up with the same 60-100 min that took for those towers to fall after the planes hit.

Deal?
If you have no intelligent contribution to the topic why bother posting at all

[Fodla32]

"If you have no intelligent contribution to the topic why bother posting at all"

Never stopped you a chara.

[random new yorker]

If you have no intelligent contribution to the topic why bother posting at all

mmmm, ok, my intelligence is being questioned ...you know its a bit late to offer a decent rebuttal..sayonara!

[Fermoy]

mmmm, ok, my intelligence is being questioned
Yes it is .
Now , about that theory of yours , the kerosene melting steel one . Care to elaborate on how that is possible .

[fluffybiscuits]

Now I am not too sure I agree with that. I know you are a staunch nationalist a chara but lets put things in perspective. Would that not be like saying that we deserved the Monaghan bombings by the British as bombed part of Britian? I mean like for like etc? The UVF at the time said they were at war with us after a programme broadcast by ITV pointed the finger at them . So by using the logic we are applying to the Americans we deserved the Monoghan bombings? After all the IRA bombed Britian to pieces...

BTW I agree with you on the point about it being genocide, to term it such as you did I believe was correct.

Folda any comment?

[Apjp]

I recall the Bin Laden family leaving before week's end. I think friday, if my memory serves me well. I remember thinking at the time Good! before some retaliatory killing takes place.... At the time it was impossible to predict how ‘We The People’ would react to such a brutal attack. That was one good decision Bush made, as far as i’m concerned.

Bin laden is responsible for a fraction of the deaths and suffering that bush, blair and now obama and cameron are for. Please view our popular drones thread. Please google us massacres of civilians in pakistan and afghanistan and iraq. Clearly 1 million iraqis arent worth 3'000 western lives in some peoples minds. It was a resource grab sparked by the same men who were caught by michael moore telling reagan to 'speed it up' on his inauguration speech.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

[fluffybiscuits]

Bin laden is responsible for a fraction of the deaths and suffering that bush, blair and now obama and cameron are for. Please view our popular drones thread. Please google us massacres of civilians in pakistan and afghanistan and iraq. Clearly 1 million iraqis arent worth 3'000 western lives in some peoples minds. It was a resource grab sparked by the same men who were caught by michael moore telling reagan to 'speed it up' on his inauguration speech.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

I think its important for all of us to remember here in the wake of the anniversary of 9/11 coming up that no one life is any less or any more equal to another life. On another site I mentioned about remembering the victims of the American invasion and terrorism as well as the victims of 9/11 and was deluged with accusations of anti Americanism . I take it from randomnewyorkers name that he is indeed from NY (I know Im stating the obvious) so of course watching perhaps his home city burn is going to naturally cause an emotional reaction same as it would for I or you. It still doesnt though take away from the fact that the media consistently reports of just the American side of the war effort and ignores the lives of those lost for whom others may to use an eloquent turn of phrase "collatertal damager".

[Cáthasaigh]

the point made at the end of the interview with regard to how the building collapsed not looking like a controlled demolition as the explosives didn't start on the ground floor plays directly into a lot of the alternative theories hands....



The Controlled Explosion Theory. I saw the South Tower fall and can guarantee we did not see any such explosions before the building collapsed.



Interesting point that first "controlled explosion" post went up that afternoon.

Wonder how long it took for Jim to dig in.

Never mind Jim, how about Larry Silverstein the owner of the complex describing the controlled demolition (pull) of building 7? You don't produce such a well-controlled demolition without months of engineering modelling and well-placed explosive charges. It certainly wasn't a 'spur of the moment' event. And no kerosene will certainly not melt steel, particularly when you consider that tower blocks are primarily built from concrete, steel and gypsum with very little flammable material in the infrastructure.

WTC 7 - Pull It By Larry Silverstein - YouTube



Usa has been hijacking cuban planes for decades. Their govt., run by corporate fascists, cannot possibly care about a few thousand american and foreign victims. They didnt care about german, vietnamese, korean, cambodian, iraqi or afghani civilians anyways. The west is more sick than the east as it only offers more.poverty, less freedom under the banner of the free world. Hitler would be proud of such ethnic cleansing and general genocide.

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

Well put.


Anybody with an ounce of sensitivity knows that the emotional aftershock from the awful events of 9/11 continues - its too easy to wrap the discussion up in these kind of slogans. US citizens and the many Irish people who lost relatives and friends deserve a more considered and nuanced approach surely!

9-11 slogans? Did you notice how the 'emotional aftershock' was manipulated to facilitate the slaughter of millions since?


Secondary target... besides, the Saudi Royals are good people in general and having the Taliban control a gas pipeline and do away with the opium production in Afghanistan made it a very easy choice.

Please tell me this was satyre, Conisdering that the Saudi royals are fuedal despots and there was no pipeline but the opium baron Unical employee President of Afghanistan has overseen an exponential growth in opium production since the Taliban actually outlawed it right before they were invaded.


There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of 9/11s over the last ten years. A million people murdered by Anglo-Saxon genocide in Iraq alone. This obsession with one particular atrocity is pointless. If the US government didn't actually arrange the bombing themselves, they set up the circumstances for it to happen - by their criminal activities all over the world.

Well said.


Now I am not too sure I agree with that. I know you are a staunch nationalist a chara but lets put things in perspective. Would that not be like saying that we deserved the Monaghan bombings by the British as bombed part of Britian? I mean like for like etc? The UVF at the time said they were at war with us after a programme broadcast by ITV pointed the finger at them . So by using the logic we are applying to the Americans we deserved the Monoghan bombings? After all the IRA bombed Britian to pieces...

BTW I agree with you on the point about it being genocide, to term it such as you did I believe was correct.

Interesting parralel to chose here since it's widely beileved, with very good reason, that the Dublin-Monaghan terror bombings were politically motivated and facilitated by British secret services. Jack Lynch had even accused the SAS of carrying out prior bombings in a speech made in front of Lelnster House.

[fluffybiscuits]

Never mind Jim, how about Larry Silverstein the owner of the complex describing the controlled demolition (pull) of building 7? You don't produce such a well-controlled demolition without months of engineering modelling and well-placed explosive charges. It certainly wasn't a 'spur of the moment' event. And no kerosene will certainly not melt steel, particularly when you consider that tower blocks are primarily built from concrete, steel and gypsum with very little flammable material in the infrastructure.

WTC 7 - Pull It By Larry Silverstein - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100)




Well put.



9-11 slogans? Did you notice how the 'emotional aftershock' was manipulated to facilitate the slaughter of millions since?



Please tell me this was satyre, Conisdering that the Saudi royals are fuedal despots and there was no pipeline but the opium baron Unical employee President of Afghanistan has overseen an exponential growth in opium production since the Taliban actually outlawed it right before they were invaded.



Well said.



Interesting parralel to chose here since it's widely beileved, with very good reason, that the Dublin-Monaghan terror bombings were politically motivated and facilitated by British secret services. Jack Lynch had even accused the SAS of carrying out prior bombings in a speech made in front of Lelnster House.

Im susrprised Folda has not answered the question as his opinions are always well recieved :)

[Apjp]

I think its important for all of us to remember here in the wake of the anniversary of 9/11 coming up that no one life is any less or any more equal to another life. On another site I mentioned about remembering the victims of the American invasion and terrorism as well as the victims of 9/11 and was deluged with accusations of anti Americanism . I take it from randomnewyorkers name that he is indeed from NY (I know Im stating the obvious) so of course watching perhaps his home city burn is going to naturally cause an emotional reaction same as it would for I or you. It still doesnt though take away from the fact that the media consistently reports of just the American side of the war effort and ignores the lives of those lost for whom others may to use an eloquent turn of phrase "collatertal damager".

Couldnt agree more. Max keiser and gerald celente have showed maps of american bases all around iran. If blair, the white house and israel get their wish, it
Means world war 3. Only iran wouldnt lose, as not only are they a global superpower, they have china, russia and north korea on their side.

My point is this indoctrined arab hatred in many americans that 'mr bush got that one right' on the iraq invasion and 'we can trust obama on foreign policy cos he speaks well' on the drone bombings of civilians will inevitably destroy the 5% of the world that actually gets on the streets over protecting corporates and demanding more suffering for the poor.

Americas best hope is the ghettos and small timers. They know what injustice is, unlike the rabidly right democrats and republicans
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[fluffybiscuits]

Couldnt agree more. Max keiser and gerald celente have showed maps of american bases all around iran. If blair, the white house and israel get their wish, it
Means world war 3. Only iran wouldnt lose, as not only are they a global superpower, they have china, russia and north korea on their side.

My point is this indoctrined arab hatred in many americans that 'mr bush got that one right' on the iraq invasion and 'we can trust obama on foreign policy cos he speaks well' on the drone bombings of civilians will inevitably destroy the 5% of the world that actually gets on the streets over protecting corporates and demanding more suffering for the poor.

Americas best hope is the ghettos and small timers. They know what injustice is, unlike the rabidly right democrats and republicans
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Couldnt have put it better myself. When watching the likes of Fox News or other mouthpieces for the American right we are exposing the vunerable minds to being indoctirinated to hate the Arab world and Islam in general. It gives this opinion that there is something wrong with all Arabs making people think every Arab is against American when in fact its plain bollocks. A lot of the invasion of Iraq is down to corporate pressure for contracts, all you have to do is to look at the politicians with vested interest in oil companies and whom gain lucrative contracts .

[Kev Bar]

Never mind Jim, how about Larry Silverstein the owner of the complex describing the controlled demolition (pull) of building 7? You don't produce such a well-controlled demolition without months of engineering modelling and well-placed explosive charges. It certainly wasn't a 'spur of the moment' event. And no kerosene will certainly not melt steel, particularly when you consider that tower blocks are primarily built from concrete, steel and gypsum with very little flammable material in the infrastructure.

WTC 7 - Pull It By Larry Silverstein - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100)




Well put.



9-11 slogans? Did you notice how the 'emotional aftershock' was manipulated to facilitate the slaughter of millions since?



Please tell me this was satyre, Conisdering that the Saudi royals are fuedal despots and there was no pipeline but the opium baron Unical employee President of Afghanistan has overseen an exponential growth in opium production since the Taliban actually outlawed it right before they were invaded.



Well said.



Interesting parralel to chose here since it's widely beileved, with very good reason, that the Dublin-Monaghan terror bombings were politically motivated and facilitated by British secret services. Jack Lynch had even accused the SAS of carrying out prior bombings in a speech made in front of Lelnster House.


Oh how we twist fact to suit our fantasy.

You'll never guess why the Taliban eventually made moves to outlaw the crop?

They were seeking diplomatic recognition. And t'was a move to make the Yanks happy.

They were in a better position to enforce a ban on the crop they were previously happy to cultivate as democratic niceties were not an issue for them.

Events, however, soon called for a cash crop again.

Good comment from the authors about the 'echo chambers' of the internet.

Cathasaigh - get with the programme - where in the youtube clip does the man say what you want him to say?
Man, you're Blair-like in your single minded media manipulation. And where your distortion ends and downright deceit begins is difficult to discern.

Karzai oversees the cultivation of the current national crop?
Not saying the man is not in the game.
But you cannot have an all powerful monster whose writ does not extend beyond Kabul.
A weak ineffectual US puppet or machiavellian collosus?
Logic goes against being both.

[fluffybiscuits]

Oh how we twist fact to suit our fantasy.

You'll never guess why the Taliban eventually made moves to outlaw the crop?

They were seeking diplomatic recognition. And t'was a move to make the Yanks happy.

They were in a better position to enforce a ban on the crop they were previously happy to cultivate as democratic niceties were not an issue for them.

Events, however, soon called for a cash crop again.

Good comment from the authors about the 'echo chambers' of the internet.

I imagine it being banned was more so for the fact that four year old kids were becoming addicted and it went against Islam rather than to appease the Americans.

[Kev Bar]

I imagine it being banned was more so for the fact that four year old kids were becoming addicted and it went against Islam rather than to appease the Americans.

I fear you imagine wrongly. I direct you towards the work of respected Pakistani Taliban expert Ahmed Rasheed.

If going against Islam was the main reason, why did the Taliban allow the cultivation for most of their period in power?

Who will rid us of troublesome fact:

Wiki:

"Rise of the Taliban (1994–2001)

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,.[13] However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[14]
[edit] "

One year it's un-Islamic, the next it's not.

The world is complex.

[C. Flower]

I fear you imagine wrongly. I direct you towards the work of respected Pakistani Taliban expert Ahmed Rasheed.

If going against Islam was the main reason, why did the Taliban allow the cultivation for most of their period in power?

Who will rid us of troublesome fact:

"Rise of the Taliban (1994–2001)

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,.[13] However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[14]
[edit] "

Very odd islamicists can be found in many of these groups. Some of them are reported to have a taste for alchohol and western pop :D.
But the fact that jumps out at me and troubles my mind is the coincidence between the ending of the poppy crop and the beginning of the bombing of Afghanistan by the US.

[Kev Bar]

@Cathasaigh.

Note in the above the province with the biggest crop.

Helmand.

Sure you know the name from fellow grunts and from the camouflaged minions of the great oppressor.

Now there's the little thorny issue of control of the area.

Don't say I am saying that there is no way Karza might not have a hand in the gig.

But he sure ain't calling all the tunes.

And he ain't directing the transport boys and ISI.

No aversion to lying on the hip myself but there is a time and place for dreams.

Let's also remember where there are drugs around, there is always deceit.

I think the hashish crop is probably more responsible for a lot of the spin witnessed in the above thread.

[Kev Bar]

Very odd islamicists can be found in many of these groups. Some of them are reported to have a taste for alchohol and western pop :D.
But the fact that jumps out at me and troubles my mind is the coincidence between the ending of the poppy crop and the beginning of the bombing of Afghanistan by the US.

Do the math.

The refusal to hand over Bin Laden was a cause of major concern to the Taliban figures who had been to Texas on oil jaunts and who only in the past couple of years had negotiated trade and recognition links for the drug ban.

All their work went up in smoke.

Some Islamists play centuries old music that contains many of the motifs of later Western sounds.

[C. Flower]

Do the math.

The refusal to hand over Bin Laden was a cause of major concern to the Taliban figures who had been to Texas on oil jaunts and who only in the past couple of years had negotiated trade and recognition links for the drug ban.

All their work went up in smoke.

Some Islamists play centuries old music that contains many of the motifs of later Western sounds.

If that was true it would be interesting.

Of course, it is very well known that the Taliban offered to surrender Bin Laden and that Bush turned the offer down, both before and during the bombing.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html

[Kev Bar]

If that was true it would be interesting.

Of course, it is very well known that the Taliban offered to surrender Bin Laden and that Bush turned the offer down, both before and during the bombing.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/bush-rejects-taliban-offer-to-surrender-bin-laden-631436.html

CF - you are impossible.

Once again - you seem to be ignoring the math.

You do mention "before" but your link is all after.

There is too a paucity of detail which leads one to Bush's response:

"When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations," Mr Bush said. "We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."

Once the gig was underway...there was no turning back.

I recall seeing an in-depth interview with a noted Pakistani cleric - of a standing which got him an audience with Omar - saying that the Mullah, to the horror of some of colleagues - would not contemplate turning over Bin Laden.

The prospect of the losing the country may have brought some sense.

But why would the US stop when they got them on the run?

Getting the drug ban was cover for starting trade - pipeline.
They needed something to hand to the public to deal with the bogey-man.


I'd be most interested in unbiased coverage of any (acceptable to the US) pre-bombing offers.

[Skrimshander]

Couldnt have put it better myself. When watching the likes of Fox News or other mouthpieces for the American right we are exposing the vunerable minds to being indoctirinated to hate the Arab world and Islam in general. It gives this opinion that there is something wrong with all Arabs making people think every Arab is against American when in fact its plain bollocks. A lot of the invasion of Iraq is down to corporate pressure for contracts, all you have to do is to look at the politicians with vested interest in oil companies and whom gain lucrative contracts .

the liberation of iraq was always tony's main agenda

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378428/Iraq-war-documents-reveal-talks-Government-oil-giants-BP-invasion.html

[Kev Bar]

A post 9/11 emasculated George W wasn't going to jump when the Taliban said hoops when he then had the option of ignoring.

(Not saying I condone this)

Pakistani Delegation Delivers Ultimatum to Taliban
A Pakistani delegation led by intelligence chief General Mahmood delivers an ultimatum to the Taliban. Mahmood reportedly tells Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, to hand over bin Laden or face a U.S. military attack. Mullah Omar refuses and calls for a panel of Muslim clerics to decide bin Laden's fate. Taliban leaders urge Afghanis to prepare for a holy war with the U.S.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/campaign/etc/cron.html

[Kev Bar]

the liberation of iraq was always tony's main agenda

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1378428/Iraq-war-documents-reveal-talks-Government-oil-giants-BP-invasion.html

Jesus wept.

if they didn't pay attention to the oil, their actions would not just be criminal, they would be criminally negligent.

[Sam Lord]

But the fact that jumps out at me and troubles my mind is the coincidence between the ending of the poppy crop and the beginning of the bombing of Afghanistan by the US.

According to the info provided by KB the decision to eradicate the crop was taken in July 2000. The bombing of Afghanistan did not start until October 2011 - A year and 4 months later.

I'm not sure what the coincidence is? :confused:



During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,.[13] However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[14]

[Skrimshander]

Jesus wept.

if they didn't pay attention to the oil, their actions would not just be criminal, they would be criminally negligent.

ok and what was iraqs part in 911?

[Count Bobulescu]

KB, I feel for ya having to defend Dubaya’s position, but some of the other positions advanced on this thread boggle. Before it all dies down, I’m sure someone will attempt to dispute the Frontline chronology, or claim to know a guy who worked in the factory where the explosives used to blow up the towers were made.:D

[Kev Bar]

ok and what was iraqs part in 911?


Diddly squat.

[Kev Bar]

KB, I feel for ya having to defend Dubaya’s position, but some of the other positions advanced on this thread boggle. Before it all dies down, I’m sure someone will attempt to dispute the Frontline chronology, or claim to know a guy who worked in the factory where the explosives used to blow up the towers were made.:D

I was going to comment on that bizarre event. But I felt there were enough contortions going on in this here hall of mirrors already.

But ta for the empathy.

[C. Flower]

A post 9/11 emasculated George W wasn't going to jump when the Taliban said hoops when he then had the option of ignoring.

(Not saying I condone this)

Pakistani Delegation Delivers Ultimatum to Taliban
A Pakistani delegation led by intelligence chief General Mahmood delivers an ultimatum to the Taliban. Mahmood reportedly tells Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, to hand over bin Laden or face a U.S. military attack. Mullah Omar refuses and calls for a panel of Muslim clerics to decide bin Laden's fate. Taliban leaders urge Afghanis to prepare for a holy war with the U.S.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/campaign/etc/cron.html

Is that a kiddies site of some kind ? Even the BBC confirmed before the bombing started that the Taliban were discussing extradition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm

[C. Flower]

CF - you are impossible.

Once again - you seem to be ignoring the math.

You do mention "before" but your link is all after.

There is too a paucity of detail which leads one to Bush's response:

"When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations," Mr Bush said. "We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."

Once the gig was underway...there was no turning back.

I recall seeing an in-depth interview with a noted Pakistani cleric - of a standing which got him an audience with Omar - saying that the Mullah, to the horror of some of colleagues - would not contemplate turning over Bin Laden.

The prospect of the losing the country may have brought some sense.

But why would the US stop when they got them on the run?

Getting the drug ban was cover for starting trade - pipeline.
They needed something to hand to the public to deal with the bogey-man.


I'd be most interested in unbiased coverage of any (acceptable to the US) pre-bombing offers.

Oh please, KB, I'm sure that you know quite well that the Taliban was discussing extradition before the bombing started.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm

It's quite possible in any event that bin Laden was in Pakistan the whole time.

[Sam Lord]

It is my recollection that with regard to Bin Laden the Taliban said that like any other country they would require some evidence against him before they simply handed him over. The US did not think that this was necessary ... they were of the opinion that anyone they simply demanded should be immediately handed over.

[Count Bobulescu]

I’m sure someone will attempt to dispute the Frontline chronology, or claim to know a guy who worked in the factory where the explosives used to blow up the towers were made.

Well that didn't take long. CF the Taleban guy quoted in the BBC piece you cite, says they would consider kickin UBL out, based on evidence presented. We now know they rejected that option.

[Kev Bar]

Is that a kiddies site of some kind ? Even the BBC confirmed before the bombing started that the Taliban were discussing extradition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1539468.stm

I know you to you all Americans are kids. And born with original sin.

But sometimes going back to childlike disciplines like simple addition and subtraction and basic timelines are necessary when Mom and Pops are off losing the run of themselves with wild theory

In the very same article you cite, the source of the story is qouted as saying:

"It would be "premature" to talk about extraditing the Saudi dissident."

(Premature ....hmmm methinks the facts are calling you a child)

"If any evidence is presented to us, we will study it," he told reporters.


Once again we are back to pesky fact - as opposed to leaps of faith/prejudice - I just don't see why the ISI would sell their client regime, the Taliban, down the swanee with a faux message of Taliban intransigence re handing over Osama.

It's amazing what you can build with those little kiddie building blocks.

CF: I am, however, open to having my childlike innocence deflowered by the pricks of unknown event

[Sam Lord]

.

Well that didn't take long. CF the Taleban guy quoted in the BBC piece you cite, says they would consider kickin UBL out, based on evidence presented. We now know they rejected that option.

Was evidence presented?

[Skrimshander]

KB, I feel for ya having to defend Dubaya’s position, but some of the other positions advanced on this thread boggle. Before it all dies down, I’m sure someone will attempt to dispute the Frontline chronology, or claim to know a guy who worked in the factory where the explosives used to blow up the towers were made.:D

perosnally i wouldnt feel for anyone defending a mass murderer:D:D

[Kev Bar]

But Cactus really - you can see what the Taliban are doing:

"Prove to us that Osama did it...and we will, perhaps, eventually contemplate discussing extradition."

Then CF asks why didn't Bush prove then and there on the spot that Osama did it.

Why didn't he prove it?

That's a rather difficult task...certainly prior to Osama's claiming responsibility.

How difficult?

Insanley so.

As this existence of this daft thread and most of the prejudiced posts amply testify to.

[C. Flower]

I know you to you all Americans are kids. And born with original sin.

But sometimes going back to childlike disciplines like simple addition and subtraction and basic timelines are necessary when Mom and Pops are off losing the run of themselves with wild theory

In the very same article you cite, the source of the story is qouted as saying:

"It would be "premature" to talk about extraditing the Saudi dissident."

(Premature ....hmmm methinks the facts are calling you a child)

"If any evidence is presented to us, we will study it," he told reporters.


Once again we are back to pesky fact - as opposed to leaps of faith/prejudice - I just don't see why the ISI would sell their client regime, the Taliban, down the swanee with a faux message of Taliban intransigence re handing over Osama.

It's amazing what you can build with those little kiddie building blocks.

CF: I am, however, open to having my childlike innocence deflowered by the pricks of unknown event

Total misrepresentation KB. I said nothing whatsover about "Americans" and am opposed on principle to making generalisations about people on the basis of their nationality.

The pesky fact is that every newsagency around confirmed that the Taliban was actively offering talks on extradition both before and during the bombing. For two clever and well informed guys, you and the Count have very short memories and seem to be struggling with basic reading material.

[Kev Bar]

Was evidence presented?

How could it be? The CIA did it.

[Sam Lord]

How could it be? The CIA did it.

Seriously, KB.

[C. Flower]

But Cactus really - you can see what the Taliban are doing:

"Prove to us that Osama did it...and we will, perhaps, eventually contemplate discussing extradition."

Then CF asks why didn't Bush prove then and there on the spot that Osama did it.

Why didn't he prove it?

That's a rather difficult task...certainly prior to Osama's claiming responsibility.

How difficult?

Insanley so.

As this existence of this daft thread and most of the prejudiced posts amply testify to.

I asked no such thing. Stop making stuff up.

But it's interesting all the same that you think Bush would have struggled to produce evidence.

[Kev Bar]

Total misrepresentation KB. I said nothing whatsover about "Americans" and am opposed on principle to making generalisations about people on the basis of their nationality.

The pesky fact is that every newsagency around confirmed that the Taliban was actively offering talks on extradition both before and during the bombing. For two clever and well informed guys, you and the Count have very short memories and seem to be struggling with basic reading material.

Show me the money!

(Re: Before)

And while you're there explain the ISI positon.

[Sam Lord]

But Cactus really - you can see what the Taliban are doing:

"Prove to us that Osama did it...and we will, perhaps, eventually contemplate discussing extradition."

Then CF asks why didn't Bush prove then and there on the spot that Osama did it.

Why didn't he prove it?

That's a rather difficult task...certainly prior to Osama's claiming responsibility.

How difficult?

Insanley so.



It is one of the inconvenient difficulties with the rule of law. You have to prove stuff.

[C. Flower]

.

Well that didn't take long. CF the Taleban guy quoted in the BBC piece you cite, says they would consider kickin UBL out, based on evidence presented. We now know they rejected that option.

It was disputed because it was demonstrably inaccurate. Who compiled that thing ? The A Team ?

[Kev Bar]

I asked no such thing. Stop making stuff up.

But it's interesting all the same that you think Bush would have struggled to produce evidence.

If memory serves, the crime scene was a bit of a mess.

[Kev Bar]

It is one of the inconvenient difficulties with the rule of law. You have to prove stuff.

It's not my job to defend the invasion of the 'Stan.

I believe there was a very moronic - 'with us or against us' line going down.

A line that we seem to be witnessing in some of the above posts.

All I am trying to do is ascertain a reasonable accurate sequence of events.

[Sam Lord]

This is what happened according to wiki (for what it is worth):




After the September 11 attacks on the U.S. and the PENTTBOM investigation, the United States made the following demands of the Taliban,[59] and refused to discuss them:

1.Deliver to the U.S. all of the leaders of Al-Qaeda
2.Release all foreign nationals that have been "unjustly imprisoned"
3.Protect foreign journalists, diplomats, and aid workers
4.Close immediately every terrorist training camp
5.Hand over every terrorist and their supporters to appropriate authorities
6.Give the United States full access to terrorist training camps for inspection

The U.S. petitioned the international community to back a military campaign to overthrow the Taliban. The U.N. issued two resolutions on terrorism after the Sept.11 attacks. The resolutions called on all states to "[increase] cooperation and full implementation of the relevant international conventions relating to terrorism" and specified consensus recommendations for all countries. The Security Council did not authorize military intervention in Afghanistan of any kind, and nowhere in the U.N resolutions did it say military operations in Afghanistan were justified or conformed to international law.[60] Despite this, NATO approved a campaign against Afghanistan as self-defense against armed attack.[61]

On September 21, the Taliban responded to the ultimatum, promising that if the U.S. could bring evidence that bin Laden was guilty, they would hand him over, stating that they had no evidence linking him to the September 11 attacks.[62]

On September 22, the United Arab Emirates, and later Saudi Arabia, withdrew recognition of the Taliban as Afghanistan's legal government, leaving neighbouring Pakistan as the only remaining country with diplomatic ties. On October 4, the Taliban agreed to turn bin Laden over to Pakistan for trial in an international tribunal[63] that operated according to Islamic Sharia law, but Pakistan blocked the offer as it was not possible to guarantee his safety.[64] On October 7, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan offered to detain bin Laden and try him under Islamic law if the U.S. made a formal request and presented the Taliban with evidence. A Bush administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, rejected the Taliban offer, and stated that the U.S. would not negotiate their demands.[65]

[Count Bobulescu]

Was evidence presented?

US did not have diplomatic relations with Taleban. So it was done via Pakistan and UN Security Council. From Frontline.



9/17 A Pakistani delegation led by intelligence chief General Mahmood delivers an ultimatum to the Taliban. Mahmood reportedly tells Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, to hand over bin Laden or face a U.S. military attack. Mullah Omar refuses and calls for a panel of Muslim clerics to decide bin Laden's fate. Taliban leaders urge Afghanis to prepare for a holy war with the U.S.
99

9/18 The U.N. Security Council issues a statement demanding that the Taliban "surrender bin Laden to the appropriate authorities and close terrorist training camps."



9/21 The Taliban announces that it has rejected ultimatums to hand over bin Laden. Afghan citizens began to flee cities as the country prepared to move closer to war.

[Kev Bar]

Note the softening of the Taliban position on Oct 7.

Would that be a coincidence, I wonder?

[Kev Bar]

US did not have diplomatic relations with Taleban. So it was done via Pakistan and UN Security Council. From Frontline.



99

Count.

I do think what was presented wld be deemed more a demand based on intelligence than hard legal evidence.

[C. Flower]

US did not have diplomatic relations with Taleban. So it was done via Pakistan and UN Security Council. From Frontline.



99

Why quote from that site that leaves most of the relevant information ?

What on earth is "Frontline" ?

[Count Bobulescu]

Count.

I do think what was presented wld be deemed more a demand based on intelligence than hard legal evidence.

Point taken.

[Count Bobulescu]

Why quote from that site that leaves most of the relevant information ?

What on earth is "Frontline" ?

Frontline is PBS’ primary investigative program, sorta like Panorama. KB originally cited the chronology from their site, to support, and I excerpted from it. I think I have posted some stuff from them in the media thread, if not, I should have.

You can watch some of their stuff on their site.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/

[Cáthasaigh]

Oh how we twist fact to suit our fantasy.

You'll never guess why the Taliban eventually made moves to outlaw the crop?

They were seeking diplomatic recognition. And t'was a move to make the Yanks happy.

They were in a better position to enforce a ban on the crop they were previously happy to cultivate as democratic niceties were not an issue for them.

Events, however, soon called for a cash crop again.

So the Yanks who weren't involved in drug trafficking in SE Asia or South America didn't want opium production in Afghanistan. Could have fooled me by the way it skyrocketed faster than a stinger missile after they took over and placed administration in the hands of all the major opium barons.




Cathasaigh - get with the programme - where in the youtube clip does the man say what you want him to say?
Man, you're Blair-like in your single minded media manipulation. And where your distortion ends and downright deceit begins is difficult to discern.

Silverstein says 'we took the decision to pull the building' meaning it didn't miraculously collapse like the other two, it was demolished. How'd they manage to accomplish such a feat in so short a space of time in such a high risk area? Was it another miracle, does Jesus work for Silverstein?

Karzai oversees the cultivation of the current national crop?
Not saying the man is not in the game.
But you cannot have an all powerful monster whose writ does not extend beyond Kabul.
A weak ineffectual US puppet or machiavellian collosus?
Logic goes against being both.[/QUOTE]

Karzai heads the opium cartel of warlord drug barons. The closest thing to a progressive leader of the 'northern allicance, Ahmed Shah Massoud, was conveniently taken out by 'Al Quaeda suicide bombers' within days of the invasion paving the way for the opiocracy.

[Fermoy]

But Cactus really - you can see what the Taliban are doing:

"Prove to us that Osama did it...and we will, perhaps, eventually contemplate discussing extradition."

Then CF asks why didn't Bush prove then and there on the spot that Osama did it.

Why didn't he prove it?

That's a rather difficult task...certainly prior to Osama's claiming responsibility.

How difficult?

Insanley so.

As this existence of this daft thread and most of the prejudiced posts amply testify to.

Prior to Osama's claiming responsibility for what ?

[C. Flower]

Frontline is PBS’ primary investigative program, sorta like Panorama. KB originally cited the chronology from their site, to support, and I excerpted from it. I think I have posted some stuff from them in the media thread, if not, I should have.

You can watch some of their stuff on their site.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/

In this particular instance, their timeline is sketchy, to say the least.

[Count Bobulescu]

In this particular instance, their timeline is sketchy, to say the least.

"You"……….. did say the least!.......... What’s your alternative timeline?

[random new yorker]

According to the info provided by KB the decision to eradicate the crop was taken in July 2000. The bombing of Afghanistan did not start until October 2011 - A year and 4 months later.

I'm not sure what the coincidence is? :confused:

I also don't see what's the relationship btw the war on drugs in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda's attack in NY/DC. Am I missing something here? maybe someone cares to explain?

The drugs were there before and are there now. Profitable way to make a living. And the reason it is profitable is bc it is illegal. Now we'll have to start a thread on that!

The bombing of Afghanistan as I recall was a pretty done deal the moment the potential perpetrators were identified...which if i recall correctly by the time the second tower fell Al Qaeda was named.. Course you're NOT going to bomb NY and get nothing in return... (not condoning any bombing either way)

Plus there's this:

From WIKI:

"John P. O'Neill was a counter-terrorism expert and the Assistant Director of the FBI until late 2001. He retired from the FBI and was offered the position of director of security at the World Trade Center (WTC). He took the job at the WTC two weeks before 9/11. On September 10, 2001, O’Neill told two of his friends:

"We're due. And we're due for something big.... Some things have happened in Afghanistan [referring to the assassination of Massoud]. I don’t like the way things are lining up in Afghanistan. ... I sense a shift, and I think things are going to happen ... soon."[86]
—John O'Neill, September 10, 2001

O'Neill died on September 11, 2001, when the South Tower collapsed.[86]"


I sensed the same shift. On Sept 10th, 2001 I read a piece in the New York Times that made me change my whole schedule for Sept 11. The article (pulled from the NYT website promptly 2-3 days after the bombing) made a poignant connection between Massoud's assassination and a major upcoming terrorist attack.

The bombing of Iraq is a whole different story.

[random new yorker]

Silverstein says 'we took the decision to pull the building' meaning it didn't miraculously collapse like the other two, it was demolished. How'd they manage to accomplish such a feat in so short a space of time in such a high risk area? Was it another miracle, does Jesus work for Silverstein?


Building 7 main support structure was severely damaged by the rumbling of the falling towers I recall hearing in the morning. I don't recall any talk of any pull or controlled demolishments. It collapsed sometime in the afternoon.

[Kev Bar]

So the Yanks who weren't involved in drug trafficking in SE Asia or South America didn't want opium production in Afghanistan. Could have fooled me by the way it skyrocketed faster than a stinger missile after they took over and placed administration in the hands of all the major opium barons.




Silverstein says 'we took the decision to pull the building' meaning it didn't miraculously collapse like the other two, it was demolished. How'd they manage to accomplish such a feat in so short a space of time in such a high risk area? Was it another miracle, does Jesus work for Silverstein?

Karzai oversees the cultivation of the current national crop?
Not saying the man is not in the game.
But you cannot have an all powerful monster whose writ does not extend beyond Kabul.
A weak ineffectual US puppet or machiavellian collosus?
Logic goes against being both.

Karzai heads the opium cartel of warlord drug barons. The closest thing to a progressive leader of the 'northern alliance, Ahmed Shah Massoud, was conveniently taken out by 'Al Quaeda suicide bombers' within days of the invasion paving the way for the opiocracy.[/QUOTE]

He arguably- and I think a more crebidly so - could have been referring to pulling the firemen out.

(Also: "Pull" a building....there's a new one. And that's means 'demolish' in which dictionary?)

Only a loon, a bigot or a dope wld build a thesis on an uncertainty.

Mr Massoud was killed prior to the invasion. And prior to the event that caused the invasion. And no doubt cos of the valuable role he would have played facilitating the invasion goals.

In fact his killing was what led me to instantly credibly suspect veracity in the allegation that Al Quaeda did 9/11.

Ground control calling!

[random new yorker]

Karzai heads the opium cartel of warlord drug barons. The closest thing to a progressive leader of the 'northern allicance, Ahmed Shah Massoud, was conveniently taken out by 'Al Quaeda suicide bombers' within days of the invasion paving the way for the opiocracy.

Ah I guess this is the link I was missing before.
You suggesting that the reason Massoud was taken out was to pave the way for opiocracy?

I am more inclined to believe that Massoud was taken out by Al Qaeda, Sunday sept 9, 2001, two days before the attack, cos he strongly rejected the interpretations of Islam followed by the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the Saudi establishment. No?

[Count Bobulescu]

RNY, there’s no shortage of conspiracy theorists on these here forums. Frontline re-ran their story on John O’Neill this week. Here.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/

[Count Bobulescu]

And now back to reality.


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/july-dec11/9_11commission_08-31.html

[random new yorker]

RNY, there’s no shortage of conspiracy theorists on these here forums. Frontline re-ran their story on John O’Neill this week. Here.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/

Will listen tomorrow...too late now. Anyway my point was to bring Massoud into the discussion.

The piece on the NYT sept 10th I can assure you it is true. few people read it but soon thereafter there was a great discussion on the Brian Lehrer show (WNYC), a cpl people called in to discuss the piece and then I knew 'I am not crazy after all!!' (by then I was doubting I read the article as it had been pulled from the site). By the way I printed out the stinking piece but trashed it sometime that week.. 'tis only my account of events....take it as it is, one account, nothing else.

[Fermoy]

Building 7 main support structure was severely damaged by the rumbling of the falling towers I recall hearing in the morning .
Do you have any links to structural engineers reports about that ?

[Fermoy]

(Also: "Pull" a building....there's a new one. And that's means 'demolish' in which dictionary?)



pull the pin .... demolition explosives jargon .

[fluffybiscuits]

I fear you imagine wrongly. I direct you towards the work of respected Pakistani Taliban expert Ahmed Rasheed.

If going against Islam was the main reason, why did the Taliban allow the cultivation for most of their period in power?

Who will rid us of troublesome fact:

Wiki:

"Rise of the Taliban (1994–2001)

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999,.[13] However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season.[14]
[edit] "

One year it's un-Islamic, the next it's not.

The world is complex.

Does that not somewhat validate my point:? Something that is custome and practice and then is removed, they made a lot of rules of up as they went along I admit. Remember their ban on no beards and paper bags in case the Koran was used?

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/08/world/paper-bags-banned-taliban-tells-afghans.html

[C. Flower]

I deliberately titled the thread "Saudi and CIA aspects" as I hope that we might look at the facts pointed to in the book quoted in the OP.

If people would like a technical discussion of the collapse of the towers, I propose to split that off to a separate thread.

[Kev Bar]

Prior to Osama's claiming responsibility for what ?

Some large event in New York with towers.

[Kev Bar]

pull the pin .... demolition explosives jargon .


Just as easily be pull the people ... ie the first responders.

[Kev Bar]

I deliberately titled the thread "Saudi and CIA aspects" as I hope that we might look at the facts pointed to in the book quoted in the OP.

If people would like a technical discussion of the collapse of the towers, I propose to split that off to a separate thread.

Fine by me.

But methinks there is no policing 9/11

[Skrimshander]

I deliberately titled the thread "Saudi and CIA aspects" as I hope that we might look at the facts pointed to in the book quoted in the OP.

If people would like a technical discussion of the collapse of the towers, I propose to split that off to a separate thread.

do we really need one? someone flew a very large plane into a building. which then collapsed due to structural damage, fire and gravity

[TotalMayhem]

do we really need one? someone flew a very large plane into a building. which then collapsed due to structural damage, fire and gravity

Someone who actually couldn't fly?

[Skrimshander]

Someone who actually couldn't fly?

probably why he crashed;)

[Count Bobulescu]

From the Federation of American Scientists.

A SPOTLIGHT ON "TOP SECRET AMERICA"

Most people can vaguely recall that there was once no U.S. Department of Homeland Security and that there was a time when you didn't have to take your shoes off before boarding an airplane or submit to other dubious security practices.

But hardly anyone truly comprehends the enormous expansion of the military, intelligence and homeland security bureaucracy that has occurred over the past decade, and the often irrational transformation of American life that has accompanied it.

The great virtue of the new book "Top Secret America" by Dana Priest and William M. Arkin (Little Brown, September 2011) is that it illuminates various facets of our secret government, lifting them from the periphery of awareness to full, sustained attention.

Top Secret America, which builds on the series of stories the authors produced for the Washington Post in July 2010, delineates the contours of "the new American security state." Since 9/11, for example, some 33 large office complexes for top secret intelligence work have been completed in the Washington DC area, the equivalent in size of nearly three Pentagons. More than 250,000 contractors are working on top secret programs. A bewildering number of agencies - more than a thousand -- have been created to execute security policy, including at least 24 new organizations last year alone. And so on.

But the vast scale of this activity says nothing about its quality or utility. The authors, who are scrupulous in their presentation of the facts, are critical in their evaluation:

"One of the greatest secrets of Top Secret America is its disturbing dysfunction."

"Ten years after the attacks of 9/11, more secret projects, more secret organizations, more secret authorities, more secret decision making, more watchlists, and more databases are not the answer to every problem. In fact, more has become too much."

"It is time to close the decade-long chapter of fear, to confront the colossal sum of money that could have been saved or better spent, to remember what we are truly defending, and in doing so, to begin a new era of openness and better security against our enemies."

(From this point of view, it was disappointing to hear the former chair of the 9/11 Commission, Gov. Tom Kean, declare (http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/news/press-releases/2011/08/bipartisan-policy-center-report-card-finds-nine-unfinished-911-commissio) yesterday that "we are not as secure as we could or should be." We need to accelerate along the path we have been following, Gov. Kean seemed to say, not to fundamentally change course.)

According to Priest and Arkin, "The government has still not engaged the American people in an honest conversation about terrorism and the appropriate U.S. response to it. We hope our book will promote one."

Despite the sobering subject matter, Top Secret America actually makes for lively reading. It is full of the authors' remarkable insights, anecdotes and encounters. Dana Priest explored some of the physical geography of the classified world, taking elevators to unmarked floors in suburban office buildings and driving up to guard booths at secret facilities to innocently ask for information. She accompanied police in Memphis while they conducted neighborhood surveillance with newfangled automatic license plate readers. She was polygraphed at her request -- and found to be a poor liar. Bill Arkin, whose painstaking research informed the entire work (which is narrated by Priest), spent ten days in Qatar at the U.S. military facility that controls air operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and somehow got himself invited to classified briefings.

One question that lurks throughout the book is whether the excesses and misjudgments that constitute so much of Top Secret America can be corrected or reversed. The authors are not very optimistic, particularly since there are so many people who benefit from current arrangements, however wasteful, useless or pointless they might be.

By way of illustration they cite U.S. Northern Command, the newest military command that is nominally responsible for defense of North America but in practice is largely subordinate to other agencies and organizations. "The fact that Northern Command would even continue to exist as a major, four-star-led, geographic military command, with virtually no responsibilities, no competencies, and no unique role to fill, demonstrated the resiliency of institutions created in the wake of 9/11 and just how difficult it would be to ever actually shrink Top Secret America," they wrote.

Secrecy is naturally a persistent theme throughout the book. As is often the case in national security reporting, the authors relied on unauthorized disclosures to complement their own research and reporting. And in this case, such disclosures served as a particularly effective antidote to overclassification.

"Most of those who helped us did so with the knowledge that they were breaking some internal agency rule in doing so; they proceeded anyway because they wanted us to have a more complete picture of the inner workings of the post-9/11 world we sought to describe and because they, too, believe too much information is classified for no good reason," they wrote.

At the same time, the authors noted that they "have left out some information" based on national security considerations.

Top Secret America will be featured on PBS Frontline (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/) on September 6, the book's official release date.

[Kev Bar]

From the Federation of American Scientists.

A SPOTLIGHT ON "TOP SECRET AMERICA"

Most people can vaguely recall that there was once no U.S. Department of Homeland Security and that there was a time when you didn't have to take your shoes off before boarding an airplane or submit to other dubious security practices.

But hardly anyone truly comprehends the enormous expansion of the military, intelligence and homeland security bureaucracy that has occurred over the past decade, and the often irrational transformation of American life that has accompanied it.

The great virtue of the new book "Top Secret America" (http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-America-American-Security/dp/0316182214) by Dana Priest and William M. Arkin (Little Brown, September 2011) is that it illuminates various facets of our secret government, lifting them from the periphery of awareness to full, sustained attention.

Top Secret America (http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-America-American-Security/dp/0316182214), which builds on the series of stories the authors produced for the Washington Post (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/) in July 2010, delineates the contours of "the new American security state." Since 9/11, for example, some 33 large office complexes for top secret intelligence work have been completed in the Washington DC area, the equivalent in size of nearly three Pentagons. More than 250,000 contractors are working on top secret programs. A bewildering number of agencies - more than a thousand -- have been created to execute security policy, including at least 24 new organizations last year alone. And so on.

But the vast scale of this activity says nothing about its quality or utility. The authors, who are scrupulous in their presentation of the facts, are critical in their evaluation:

"One of the greatest secrets of Top Secret America is its disturbing dysfunction."

"Ten years after the attacks of 9/11, more secret projects, more secret organizations, more secret authorities, more secret decision making, more watchlists, and more databases are not the answer to every problem. In fact, more has become too much."

"It is time to close the decade-long chapter of fear, to confront the colossal sum of money that could have been saved or better spent, to remember what we are truly defending, and in doing so, to begin a new era of openness and better security against our enemies."

(From this point of view, it was disappointing to hear the former chair of the 9/11 Commission, Gov. Tom Kean, declare (http://www.bipartisanpolicy.org/news/press-releases/2011/08/bipartisan-policy-center-report-card-finds-nine-unfinished-911-commissio) yesterday that "we are not as secure as we could or should be." We need to accelerate along the path we have been following, Gov. Kean seemed to say, not to fundamentally change course.)

According to Priest and Arkin, "The government has still not engaged the American people in an honest conversation about terrorism and the appropriate U.S. response to it. We hope our book will promote one."

Despite the sobering subject matter, Top Secret America (http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-America-American-Security/dp/0316182214) actually makes for lively reading. It is full of the authors' remarkable insights, anecdotes and encounters. Dana Priest explored some of the physical geography of the classified world, taking elevators to unmarked floors in suburban office buildings and driving up to guard booths at secret facilities to innocently ask for information. She accompanied police in Memphis while they conducted neighborhood surveillance with newfangled automatic license plate readers. She was polygraphed at her request -- and found to be a poor liar. Bill Arkin, whose painstaking research informed the entire work (which is narrated by Priest), spent ten days in Qatar at the U.S. military facility that controls air operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, and somehow got himself invited to classified briefings.

One question that lurks throughout the book (http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-America-American-Security/dp/0316182214) is whether the excesses and misjudgments that constitute so much of Top Secret America can be corrected or reversed. The authors are not very optimistic, particularly since there are so many people who benefit from current arrangements, however wasteful, useless or pointless they might be.

By way of illustration they cite U.S. Northern Command, the newest military command that is nominally responsible for defense of North America but in practice is largely subordinate to other agencies and organizations. "The fact that Northern Command would even continue to exist as a major, four-star-led, geographic military command, with virtually no responsibilities, no competencies, and no unique role to fill, demonstrated the resiliency of institutions created in the wake of 9/11 and just how difficult it would be to ever actually shrink Top Secret America," they wrote.

Secrecy is naturally a persistent theme throughout the book (http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-America-American-Security/dp/0316182214). As is often the case in national security reporting, the authors relied on unauthorized disclosures to complement their own research and reporting. And in this case, such disclosures served as a particularly effective antidote to overclassification.

"Most of those who helped us did so with the knowledge that they were breaking some internal agency rule in doing so; they proceeded anyway because they wanted us to have a more complete picture of the inner workings of the post-9/11 world we sought to describe and because they, too, believe too much information is classified for no good reason," they wrote.

At the same time, the authors noted that they "have left out some information" based on national security considerations.

Top Secret America will be featured on PBS Frontline (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/) on September 6, the book's official release date.

You can't do that Count. You're diverting attention away from the "real" conspiracy

[random new yorker]

Do you have any links to structural engineers reports about that ?

CF is all done w us discussing falling towers and structural damage. So here, I give you this: towers going UP!! and the proud men that build them!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/us/sept-11-reckoning/04Mag-ironworkers.html?_r=2&hp

For reading carefully and maybe picking up on some facts as to what these buildings are made of....

[Skrimshander]

Well we can all take a bow/beat our chests as the 9/11 conspiracy theories are "the children of the internet age."


Interesting point that first "controlled explosion" post went up that afternoon.


Wonder how long it took for Jim to dig in.

in a radio interview yesterday one of the authors said that cheney was publicly blaming Iraq 4 hours after the second plane hit... and he didnt post it on the net

[TotalMayhem]

Hey kids! Climb aboard the indoctrination station with this bizarre 9/11 coloring book! (http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/2011/08/we_shall_never_forget_911_coloring_book.php)

http://i.imgur.com/k8YDJ.jpg

[Kev Bar]

in a radio interview yesterday one of the authors said that cheney was publicly blaming Iraq 4 hours after the second plane hit... and he didnt post it on the net


He didn't have to.
When you are in his position, you can breathe life into conspiracy theory.

But why emulate his behaviour; bullying reality into suiting a pre-ordained worldview.

[Griska]

in a radio interview yesterday one of the authors said that cheney was publicly blaming Iraq 4 hours after the second plane hit... and he didnt post it on the net

Cheney was following the Neo-Con trick devised by Leo Strauss.
The truth is unimportant when a lie better suits your agenda.

[Fermoy]

Some large event in New York with towers.
What event ? , explain yourself

[Fermoy]

Just as easily be pull the people ... ie the first responders.
But it was not , if it were , the man would have said "pull them out "
but he said "PULL IT" .

Try better next time .

[Fermoy]

do we really need one? someone flew a very large plane into a building. which then collapsed due to structural damage, fire and gravity
Is that one a new blockbuster movie ?

[Griska]

On the night of September 10th, 2001, a crew quietly and secretly removed the twin cardboard cutouts in Manhattan that came to be known as the WTC.
The next morning, every news channel simultaneously ran Hollywood produced footage of "planes" and "collapsing buildings".

The New World Order (or Jewish Bankers, if you prefer) had unleashed it's dastardly plan.

Anybody who took part in the production of the video, or disassembling of the "towers" were killed and their loved ones told that they were on board the "planes" which crashed.

The NWO then had it's American minions go on tv and give reports of "dust" and "firefighters" dying and other such nonsense.

Anyone who believes otherwise is a crackpot.

[random new yorker]

Cheney was following the Neo-Con trick devised by Leo Strauss.
The truth is unimportant when a lie better suits your agenda.

Thx Griska...for this one and the other comment above. I can add my opinion here..

As I recall:
The minute the Neo-Cons started talking about Iraq we knew what was coming. People with perfect judgement of what would happen...especially the reporters that could have kept these issues in the fire, did not speak up for fear of being labelled anti-patriotic....(after all.. this was the first time in recent history we suffered a major attack in our own soil...and this time people all over the world watched it almost live on TV!)... The Neo-Cons simply hijacked people's shocked minds at the time and took full advantage of the situation to further their agenda and get back into Iraq to finish up what daddy Bush hadn't finished.

[Kid Ryder]

Hey kids! Climb aboard the indoctrination station with this bizarre 9/11 coloring book! (http://blogs.westword.com/showandtell/2011/08/we_shall_never_forget_911_coloring_book.php)

http://i.imgur.com/k8YDJ.jpg

A bit like these ones? Nothing like a bit of jingo, eh?
http://www.arranalexander.co.uk/ekmps/shops/macduffdave/images/oliver-cromwell-ladybird-books-adventure-from-history-book-series-561-matt-1965-4068-p.jpghttp://www.arranalexander.co.uk/ekmps/shops/macduffdave/images/james-i-and-the-gunpowder-plot-ladybird-adventures-from-history-book-matt-1971-hardcover-281-p.jpg

[random new yorker]

By Teddy Roosevelt

The Man in The Arena
Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic", delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat[/B]."

[Fermoy]

By Teddy Roosevelt

The Man in The Arena
Excerpt from the speech "Citizenship In A Republic", delivered at the Sorbonne, in Paris, France on 23 April, 1910

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat[/B]."

off topic post

[fluffybiscuits]

Thx Griska...for this one and the other comment above. I can add my opinion here..

As I recall:
The minute the Neo-Cons started talking about Iraq we knew what was coming. People with perfect judgement of what would happen...especially the reporters that could have kept these issues in the fire, did not speak up for fear of being labelled anti-patriotic....(after all.. this was the first time in recent history we suffered a major attack in our own soil...and this time people all over the world watched it almost live on TV!)... The Neo-Cons simply hijacked people's shocked minds at the time and took full advantage of the situation to further their agenda and get back into Iraq to finish up what daddy Bush hadn't finished.

They did do that, people felt so vunerable and open to attack at the time the Neo Cons came in and filled that vaccum by filling peoples head with nonsense. This is the exact same method used by fundamentalists whom they despise, when there is nothing for the youth fundamentalise them! In that way both the Neo Cons and the fundamentalists operate the same.

[Griska]

They did do that, people felt so vunerable and open to attack at the time the Neo Cons came in and filled that vaccum by filling peoples head with nonsense. This is the exact same method used by fundamentalists whom they despise, when there is nothing for the youth fundamentalise them! In that way both the Neo Cons and the fundamentalists operate the same.

There's a good documentary called The Power of Nightmares which deals with the origins and growth of both.

The Power of Nightmares - 1of3 - The Rise of the Politics of Fear-Baby It's Cold Outside - YouTube

[fluffybiscuits]

Thanks for the recommendations Griska :)

[C. Flower]

Tonight - an extended #rtept looking at the lasting effects of #9/11, with a report from Richard Downes on what this means to America.

[Kev Bar]

RTE were just advertising 9/11 and its effects on the Irish diaspora. Have we no shame with this endless Paddycentricsim?

[Sam Lord]

RTE were just advertising 9/11 and its effects on the Irish diaspora. Have we no shame with this endless Paddycentricsim?

You do live in Ireland, Kev. (In case you haven't looked out of the window recently.)

[Kev Bar]

You do live in Ireland, Kev. (In case you haven't looked out of the window recently.)


I'm scared to do so.
All those circling Boeings.

Vanity Fair have a piece on the non-Irish angle:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/08/9-11-2011-201108

[C. Flower]

There was just a fascinating item on Channel 4 news. A journalist showed people in Afghanistan pictures of the plane hitting the twin towers. None of them, bar the police chief, recognised the image. Some of them thought it might be Kabul, as no way the Taliban or anyone else from Afghanistan could get to N. Y. and do that.

One guy was very sceptical about the use of planes. In Afghanistan, we use donkeys, he said.

[Count Bobulescu]

There was just a fascinating item on Channel 4 news. A journalist showed people in Afghanistan pictures of the plane hitting the twin towers. None of them, bar the police chief, recognised the image. Some of them thought it might be Kabul, as no way the Taliban or anyone else from Afghanistan could get to N. Y. and do that.

One guy was very sceptical about the use of planes. In Afghanistan, we use donkeys, he said.

There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29\ (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29%5C)

[Kev Bar]

There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29\ (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29%5C)

Apparently it's just hell there trying to get the latest Vanity Fair.

[Fermoy]

There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

How is that hard to believe ?
The USA is waging a crusade . Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of that .
Very easy to believe .

[Griska]

There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

How is that hard to believe ?
The USA is waging a crusade . Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of that .
Very easy to believe .

I can't speak for the Count, but I suspect he was saying the fact that 92% of men in certain areas had never heard of the events of 11/9/01 is hard to believe.

[Griska]

Tony Blair is getting into the spirit of the occasion.

On radical islamists:

"They believe in what they believe in because they believe their religion compels them to believe in it."

Mr Blair warned the threat would only end when "we defeat the ideology".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/war-on-terror-not-over-says-tony-blair-2352499.html

Defeat the ideology?
It's a good thing Tony isn't involved with people from Muslim countries, these days.
Oh, wait..........;)

[C. Flower]

There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29\ (http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29%5C)

You are talking about some of the most remote and the poorest parts of the globe. Why would they have heard ?
And even if they had heard, a lot of them have malnutrition, and might easily forget. Last time I looked they had the average lowest calorific intake in the world.

How many people in Manhattan know that ?




http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/ena/wfp154436.pdf



Summary and Recommendations
• This food security monitoring exercise was conducted using
information from field visits to 127 districts plus various
secondary sources.
• A limited set of vulnerability indicators were selected to
provide an update on the food security situation and the
Winter Impact in the vulnerable areas.

• Current FSMS data suggests that 37% of Afghan households
do not meet their minimum daily kilocalorie intake, which is
9% greater than the findings in the 2005 NRVA. Based on
this the estimated number of people currently at risk is 8.5
million.

• Fifty-Two percent of the households were classified as having
a borderline
1
(25%) and poor food (27%) consumption
score. Daykundi and Bamyan show the highest incidence of
people with poor food consumption, followed by Badghis,
Nimroz, Hilmand, Panjshir and Kunduz provinces.

• A greater proportion of household expenditure is on food
items. The proportion of expenditure on food is highest in
the north (86%).

• Cereal production in 2007 is estimated at 5.6 million MT,
which is 26% more than in 2006.
• Additional food assistance is recommended in Kunduz, Farah,
Ghor, Bamyan, Kandahar, Daikindi, Logar, Panj Sher and
Nangarhar provinces to help food insecure households to
meet their minimum food requirements.
• Over the next few months attention should be given to:
a) Improving the selection criteria and the duration of food
needs at the local level.
b) Orienting food for work programs closely with the cycle of
labor demand for agricultural activities.
c) Strengthening the dialogue among implementing partners
and local authorities in the program selection and
implementation process.

[Kid Ryder]

Have other people noticed how the terminology of imperial hate has changed from 'islamic extremism' to 'radical islam'. The latter could conceivably include under its rubric the equivalents of the RCC's former (now anathematised) 'liberation theology' and its adherents, or the global jihadis that Shebak and the CIA helped create. I think the message from the Empire is clear: 'Muslims of the world - you are only to have over you the bent imams, the moderate muftis and the timid theologians who we favour. There shall be neither an "option for the poor", for the Empire is the option of the rich, nor dreams of world domination, for that is exclusively our purview and privilege'.

[Kev Bar]

You are talking about some of the most remote and the poorest parts of the globe. Why would they have heard ?
And even if they had heard, a lot of them have malnutrition, and might easily forget. Last time I looked they had the average lowest calorific intake in the world.

How many people in Manhattan know that ?




http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/ena/wfp154436.pdf

The old opium plays havoc with the memory too.

[Count Bobulescu]

I'm scared to do so.
All those circling Boeings.

Vanity Fair have a piece on the non-Irish angle:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/08/9-11-2011-201108

Just got round to reading that. Didn't have time for 17 pages when I initially clicked. Good piece.

[Count Bobulescu]

There was just a fascinating item on Channel 4 news. A journalist showed people in Afghanistan pictures of the plane hitting the twin towers. None of them, bar the police chief, recognised the image. Some of them thought it might be Kabul, as no way the Taliban or anyone else from Afghanistan could get to N. Y. and do that.

One guy was very sceptical about the use of planes. In Afghanistan, we use donkeys, he said.

Your comment @ 133 now prompts me to ask you to explain what exactly you found so “fascinating” about the Channel 4 News report as you describe it ?
It seems I completely misread your intent, whatever it was.

[Count Bobulescu]

[QUOTE=Count Bobulescu;180832]There was a report last year by the International Council on Security and Development that claimed 92% of men in the southern provinces of Helmand and Kandahar (Taliban strongholds) had never heard of 9/11 and had no idea why the US was in the country. Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.

How is that hard to believe ?
The USA is waging a crusade . Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of that .
Very easy to believe .

If maybe you had clicked the link and read the report……maybe………

[Count Bobulescu]

I can't speak for the Count, but I suspect he was saying the fact that 92% of men in certain areas had never heard of the events of 11/9/01 is hard to believe.

Griska, you got it in one. The idea that the US would "occupy" Afghan for 10 years and the populace remains ignorant of why, beggars belief.

[Count Bobulescu]

You are talking about some of the most remote and the poorest parts of the globe. Why would they have heard ?
And even if they had heard, a lot of them have malnutrition, and might easily forget. Last time I looked they had the average lowest calorific intake in the world.

How many people in Manhattan know that ?




http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/ena/wfp154436.pdf

I have no intention of being drawn into a he said/she said with you on calorific intake. Suffice to say, if my choices were Afghanistan, or say Sudan, I’m goin with Afghan.
You could easily turn that argument on its head and ask how many people in Manhattan have access to the weaponry used by the “starving” in Afghan. Not to diminish the plight of the ordinary Afghan, but your argument appears facetious. I’m more interested in your explanation of what you found “fascinating” in the Channel 4 News report you referenced at #127 above. Could you please provide a link to the report?

[Justin Casey]

Luckily for all of us, Chris Morris managed to find the humour in it.

The Day Today – "September 11th"

[C. Flower]

I have no intention of being drawn into a he said/she said with you on calorific intake. Suffice to say, if my choices were Afghanistan, or say Sudan, I’m goin with Afghan.
You could easily turn that argument on its head and ask how many people in Manhattan have access to the weaponry used by the “starving” in Afghan. Not to diminish the plight of the ordinary Afghan, but your argument appears facetious. I’m more interested in your explanation of what you found “fascinating” in the Channel 4 News report you referenced at #127 above. Could you please provide a link to the report?

I'm certainly not being facetious. My point stands, in fact is reinforced. People in the west, with all their access to media and information, are not aware that Afghanistan has the poorest population in the world. People in Afghanistan however, have in the main no access to television, radio, books and newspapers. It is also a society very much divided up by geography, with the populations of one valley having no physical contact with those in the next. As the man said, the main mode of transport is donkey. Why should they be expected to know about something that happened in New York ?

The arms they have are in the main either from the Soviet invasion or from the US, who took a hand in arming them. Arms are better known for putting an end to knowledge, than spreading it. Manhattan of course has the US military at its disposal.

You are certainly right about Sudan being in a lot of trouble. On the "failed states index", it rated 3 to Afghanistan's 6, in 2010. But Afghanistan remained at the bottom of the UN Human Development Index, which is more concerned about the well-being of the population than it is political instability.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_ranki ngs

In the Human Development Index, Afghanistan rates considerably worse than Sudan, and is at the bottom of the list.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/
http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/explorer/

Life expectancy indices -
I put a lot of pass on this measure, as it's pretty clear cut. However, the ability of some countries to accurately log deaths might not be great.

Afghanistan, amongst the lowest, with an average life expectancy of 43. In the Sudan it's 58.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

All of the countries with lower life expectancy than Afghanistan are affected by the AIDS epidemic.

The report was on Channel 4 news: I'll see if it is available. But I'm happy to rely on this report that you linked, saying pretty well the same thing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29%5C

Over 90% of men in the most militant parts of Afghanistan did not know about the twin towers attack and did not know why the American forces were in Afghanistan.

There were plenty of reports over the years saying that the military themselves didn't have a clear idea why they were there.

[yehbut_nobut]

Ahem - I'd just like to point out that the tenth annversary of the attacks was months ago - if your living in fear of a repeat that is. Because surely any good jihadist is using the Muslim calendar?

So, according to http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html

11th September 2001 converts in the Muslim calendar to the 22nd Jumada II, in the year 1422.
Ten islamic years later, 22nd Jumada II, 1432 gives a "western" date of 26 May 2011 - the tenth (Islamic) anniversary of the attack.

I've always wondered why more people haven't picked up on this.

[Buddha]

Looking at above posts I am amazed that anyone thinks Afghanistan had anything to do with 9/11. Some Afghans most certainly did, especially the ones trained by the USA to beat the Russians, but not the Afghan Administration such as it was. The Russians invaded for the oil, so did the Yanks. Now, the Taliban, I would cheerfully exterminate everyone of them with prejudice, me being a woman. I would throw a few Irish men into that mix.

[Fermoy]

If maybe you had clicked the link and read the report……maybe………

What has that report to do with my comment .
It is you I was replying to , not someone else's report .

And you wrote

Apparently they believe the US is there to “destroy Islam”. Hard to believe.




My comment stands

[C. Flower]

Looking at above posts I am amazed that anyone thinks Afghanistan had anything to do with 9/11. Some Afghans most certainly did, especially the ones trained by the USA to beat the Russians, but not the Afghan Administration such as it was. The Russians invaded for the oil, so did the Yanks. Now, the Taliban, I would cheerfully exterminate everyone of them with prejudice, me being a woman. I would throw a few Irish men into that mix.

None of them were Afghanistanis. They were nearly all from Saudi Arabia, apart from a couple from the United Arab Emirates.

Osama bin Laden was supposedly holed up in Afghanistan after the attack: the Taliban was prepared to talk to the US about handing him over, but wanted evidence that he had been involved. Whether he was ever there or not I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

[Griska]

None of them were Afghanistanis. They were nearly all from Saudi Arabia, apart from a couple from the United Arab Emirates.

Osama bin Laden was supposedly holed up in Afghanistan after the attack: the Taliban was prepared to talk to the US about handing him over, but wanted evidence that he had been involved. Whether he was ever there or not I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks

He certainly had been in Afghanistan-there's enough eyewitness evidence of that.
When he left is almost unimportant, given the porous border with Pakistan.
He could have wandered between the two almost at will.

[Kev Bar]

How is that hard to believe ?
The USA is waging a crusade . Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of that .
Very easy to believe .

.
Well all roads lead to Jerusalem but it does not normally take over a decade to get there.

I find it difficult to discern how conspiracy theorists reject one narrative and yet embrace another without an iota of scepticism.

What is it that makes the grass greener on a particular knoll?

Prejudice perhaps?

[C. Flower]

.
Well all roads lead to Jerusalem but it does not normally take over a decade to get there.

I find it difficult to discern how conspiracy theorists reject one narrative and yet embrace another without an iota of scepticism.

What is it that makes the grass greener on a particular knoll?

Prejudice perhaps?

There's a discussion here about how things appear to a person in rural Afghanistan. It is nothing to do with conspiracy theory. They may have not heard of 9/11, but perhaps down at the mosque they have heard of the portrayal of Mohammed as a dog in Europe, and the use of the words "crusade against the evil-doers" by George Bush, before he started bombing their country.

http://kashmirwatch.com/opinions.php/2011/09/11/the-drastic-aftermath-of-9-11.html

As I said, even the heads of the coalition forces struggled to explain what exactly their mission was for the last ten years in Afghanistan.

[Kev Bar]

There's a discussion here about how things appear to a person in rural Afghanistan. It is nothing to do with conspiracy theory. They may have not heard of 9/11, but perhaps down at the mosque they have heard of the portrayal of Mohammed as a dog in Europe, and the use of the words "crusade against the evil-doers" by George Bush, before he started bombing their country.

http://kashmirwatch.com/opinions.php/2011/09/11/the-drastic-aftermath-of-9-11.html

As I said, even the heads of the coalition forces struggled to explain what exactly their mission was for the last ten years in Afghanistan.


Foolish words from a fool that were quickly dropped for fear of their effects on ... Fermoy etc.


perhaps down at the mosque they have heard of the portrayal of Mohammed as a dog in Europe,

If a deity can't handle a little satire. s/he needs to look at self esteem issues.

Yo CF, what's with the ambiguity about Osama being in the 'Stan.
I have read at least four accounts of interviews with him there ... and even amongst the 'there were no jews killed in the twin towers' crew I have yet to encounter this new erosion of reality.

The mission has ostensibly been accomplished. They have binned Bin Laden.

[Buddha]

It's pointless trying to debate with people who see every defence of Muslims as an attack on Jews. Probably because they themselves are so caught up in their own bigotries that they fail to follow logic at any cost.

My abiding memory of an attack in Afghanistan by the Invaders, on some mountainous tiny town was the picture of a woman on a donkey, holding a baby, the donkey being led by a man, away from the carnage of what I cannot describe as war, but rather terrorism.

[C. Flower]

[QUOTE=Kev Bar;180974]Foolish words from a fool that were quickly dropped for fear of their effects on ... Fermoy etc.

Would you clarify what you mean here ? This is totally unclear.


If a deity can't handle a little satire. s/he needs to look at self esteem issues.

What is under discussion is not the deity's thinking (??). It is the ordinary moslem in the street, or hillside, in Afghanistan, and whether or not he/she perceives the west as hostile to Islam. And I'm sure you're aware that it is not "a little satire", it aimed to be as offensive as possible : images of Mohammed (and humans generally) are not used in Islamic art, and a dog is, to moslems, a dirty/unclean animal. Maybe equivalent to the way people here view pigs.


Yo CF, what's with the ambiguity about Osama being in the 'Stan.
I have read at least four accounts of interviews with him there ... and even amongst the 'there were no jews killed in the twin towers' crew I have yet to encounter this new erosion of reality.

I take your and others' words for it then that he was. Whenever he was not in Pakistan.

[Count Bobulescu]

I'm certainly not being facetious. My point stands, in fact is reinforced. People in the west, with all their access to media and information, are not aware that Afghanistan has the poorest population in the world. People in Afghanistan however, have in the main no access to television, radio, books and newspapers. It is also a society very much divided up by geography, with the populations of one valley having no physical contact with those in the next. As the man said, the main mode of transport is donkey. Why should they be expected to know about something that happened in New York ?

The arms they have are in the main either from the Soviet invasion or from the US, who took a hand in arming them. Arms are better known for putting an end to knowledge, than spreading it. Manhattan of course has the US military at its disposal.

You are certainly right about Sudan being in a lot of trouble. On the "failed states index", it rated 3 to Afghanistan's 6, in 2010. But Afghanistan remained at the bottom of the UN Human Development Index, which is more concerned about the well-being of the population than it is political instability.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/06/21/2010_failed_states_index_interactive_map_and_ranki ngs

In the Human Development Index, Afghanistan rates considerably worse than Sudan, and is at the bottom of the list.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/map/
http://hdr.undp.org/en/data/explorer/

Life expectancy indices -
I put a lot of pass on this measure, as it's pretty clear cut. However, the ability of some countries to accurately log deaths might not be great.

Afghanistan, amongst the lowest, with an average life expectancy of 43. In the Sudan it's 58.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

All of the countries with lower life expectancy than Afghanistan are affected by the AIDS epidemic.

The report was on Channel 4 news: I'll see if it is available. But I'm happy to rely on this report that you linked, saying pretty well the same thing.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/19/us-afghanistan-report-idUSTRE6AI2OX20101119?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F +US+%2F+Top+News%29%5C

Over 90% of men in the most militant parts of Afghanistan did not know about the twin towers attack and did not know why the American forces were in Afghanistan.

There were plenty of reports over the years saying that the military themselves didn't have a clear idea why they were there.
With all you’ve said, you still have not explained in this or subsequent posts what is was in the Channel 4 news report that was “fascinating”. To claim that people in the west don’t realize that Afghanistan is a poor and underdeveloped country, is just plain nutty. Whether it’s the poorest or 2nd poorest doesn’t really matter. Measure one way and you get one result, measure another way and you get a different result.
The issue is not that they knew nothing about 9/11 in the immediate aftermath, that’s to be expected, but rather that in 2010, after almost 10 years of US occupation 92% claimed ignorance not just of 9/11 but of the broader reason for US occupation of their country. You think if say South Korea for example, occupied Ireland for ten years people wouldn't wonder? Once again, please explain what you found fascinating in the Channel 4 news report. Don't keep it a secret.

[C. Flower]

With all you’ve said, you still have not explained in this or subsequent posts what is was in the Channel 4 news report that was “fascinating”. To claim that people in the west don’t realize that Afghanistan is a poor and underdeveloped country, is just plain nutty. Whether it’s the poorest or 2nd poorest doesn’t really matter. Measure one way and you get one result, measure another way and you get a different result.
The issue is not that they knew nothing about 9/11 in the immediate aftermath, that’s to be expected, but rather that in 2010, after almost 10 years of US occupation 92% claimed ignorance not just of 9/11 but of the broader reason for US occupation of their country. You think if say South Korea for example, occupied Ireland for ten years people wouldn't wonder? Once again, please explain what you found fascinating in the Channel 4 news report. Don't keep it a secret.

Your post number 126 linked a report making precisely the same point. What I found fascinating about the Channel 4 report was the readily apparent gulf of incomprehension between the two sides. Comparing Ireland with Afghanistan is not comparing like with like. Ireland is a small, cohesive, modern country with ready access to news media. In spite of the fact that you realise Afghanistan is an undeveloped country, you expect them to somehow or other be following CNN and Fox news. Most of the rural population have never seen a tv.

It was yourself that introduced the notion of comparison, by citing the Sudan in comparison with Afghanistan.

And, even when it comes to Ireland, it would be interesting to take a poll in the street and see how many people here are aware that our 4 year budget was drawn up by the IMF.

Here's a report on access to television in Afghanistan. In rural areas it seems to be less than 20%, and according to this report interest in news reports has waned as people don't trust the stations.

http://tolo.tv/content/view/97/42/lang,english/

[Count Bobulescu]

Your post number 126 linked a report making precisely the same point. What I found fascinating about the Channel 4 report was the readily apparent gulf of incomprehension between the two sides. Comparing Ireland with Afghanistan is not comparing like with like. Ireland is a small, cohesive, modern country with ready access to news media. In spite of the fact that you realise Afghanistan is an undeveloped country, you expect them to somehow or other be following CNN and Fox news. Most of the rural population have never seen a tv.

It was yourself that introduced the notion of comparison, by citing the Sudan in comparison with Afghanistan.

And, even when it comes to Ireland, it would be interesting to take a poll in the street and see how many people here are aware that our 4 year budget was drawn up by the IMF.

Here's a report on access to television in Afghanistan. In rural areas it seems to be less than 20%, and according to this report interest in news reports has waned as people don't trust the stations.

http://tolo.tv/content/view/97/42/lang,english/

CF I’m thoroughly convinced you get up in the morning determined to search for and do battle with enemies both real and imagined. I really don’t think there’s much dividing us on this issue. As you noted, I originally linked to a piece (CB@#128) you now cite against me. It was not to dispute what you said, but rather to amplify what you seemed to be saying, but hadn’t explicitly said. Then you seemed (CF@# 133) to suggest I was contradicting you. I’m now dissatisfied with your latest post because it doesn’t answer all the questions I had about your earlier posts.

(I’m not sure what you mean about the “gulf in incomprehension between the two sides” maybe you meant comprehension, and which two sides, and why would you be surprised about that after I had earlier linked to the piece you now cite?)

We could go round and round endlessly parsing the semantics. I have neither the time, but more importantly the interest in that. So, if you have some psychological need to declare victory or fight til the last person standing, please, be my guest, or give Fermoy and Fodla a call. I sometimes wonder about your motives, and ask myself if you start disputes just to help drive site traffic. I want no part of that. And given how the clock is ticking it's probably best to put this thread to bed. Generals fighting last war etc.

[Fermoy]

So, if you have some psychological need to declare victory or fight til the last person standing, please, be my guest, or give Fermoy and Fodla a call. I sometimes wonder about your motives, and ask myself if you start disputes just to help drive site traffic. I want no part of that. And given how the clock is ticking it's probably best to put this thread to bed. Generals fighting last war etc.
Mind your manners .

[Kev Bar]

[quote]

Would you clarify what you mean here ? This is totally unclear.



What is under discussion is not the deity's thinking (??). It is the ordinary moslem in the street, or hillside, in Afghanistan, and whether or not he/she perceives the west as hostile to Islam. And I'm sure you're aware that it is not "a little satire", it aimed to be as offensive as possible : images of Mohammed (and humans generally) are not used in Islamic art, and a dog is, to moslems, a dirty/unclean animal. Maybe equivalent to the way people here view pigs.



I take your and others' words for it then that he was. Whenever he was not in Pakistan.

I see it as no worse than flushing priests and nuns down a toilet.

Whatever about the influence of commerce, I do not think the US is engaged in a war to liberate Christian Holy places from Moslem hands.

And if perchance they were, let's satirise them as dogs of war. And then let's throw images of shoes at them.

While one can tolerate it, one should not bend over backwards for backwardness. It tends to lead to tears. Generally those of weaker groups in society.

You don't sound that convinced about Bin being in then Stan. Why?
Why would Fisk, Burns, Rashid et al lie at great length?
Why would the Taliban dance around the grounds of handing Bin over if Bin wasn't there to hand.

Although perhaps you are on to something. Maybe he was actually in New York planting explosives on the floors below those the plane hit.

[random new yorker]

How is that hard to believe ?
The USA is waging a crusade . Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of that .
Very easy to believe .

A Crusade Fermoy...really??

Most Americans don't really care to know what the word crusade means..And for the most part we are oblivious to what our Foreign Policy is... to this day we remain quite 'insular' ..

'Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of WHAT exactly??'

Oil for sale? their own culture(s) have nothing to do with their demise?? They have NO responsibility upon their own destiny..their future....its really all in "American" hands??

[random new yorker]

Looking at above posts I am amazed that anyone thinks Afghanistan had anything to do with 9/11. Some Afghans most certainly did, especially the ones trained by the USA to beat the Russians, but not the Afghan Administration such as it was. The Russians invaded for the oil, so did the Yanks. Now, the Taliban, I would cheerfully exterminate everyone of them with prejudice, me being a woman. I would throw a few Irish men into that mix.

:)

Some of them boys actually appear to think Afghanistan may have had somethin' to do with it..

As a Yank...yea..everyone knows 'bout the oil and all..but reality is that one doesn't get to bomb NY in such fantastic fashion, live on World Wide TV, and get nothing in return.... arabs do understand that principle quite well.. the day of the attacks in NYC i remember just wandering around town and looking at the mementos people left in every corner of the city and one stuck to my brain - written in one of the thousands of missing people's pix posted.....'NO ONE F***S with NY!'
'yea..i can relate to that' I thought ....

[C. Flower]

[quote=C. Flower;181004]

I see it as no worse than flushing priests and nuns down a toilet.

Whatever about the influence of commerce, I do not think the US is engaged in a war to liberate Christian Holy places from Moslem hands.

And if perchance they were, let's satirise them as dogs of war. And then let's throw images of shoes at them.

While one can tolerate it, one should not bend over backwards for backwardness. It tends to lead to tears. Generally those of weaker groups in society.

You don't sound that convinced about Bin being in then Stan. Why?
Why would Fisk, Burns, Rashid et al lie at great length?
Why would the Taliban dance around the grounds of handing Bin over if Bin wasn't there to hand.

Although perhaps you are on to something. Maybe he was actually in New York planting explosives on the floors below those the plane hit.

Really KB this is all a complete straw man. For the second and final time, the posts were all about the perceptions of the mainly rural, poor and tv-free people of Afghanistan. You are replying to stuff that no-one has written. And suggesting that I've said, or believe, that the towers were blown up, is dishonest posting.

When was the last sighting of bin Laden in Afghanistan ?

[Fermoy]

A Crusade Fermoy...really??

Most Americans don't really care to know what the word crusade means..And for the most part we are oblivious to what our Foreign Policy is... to this day we remain quite 'insular' ..

'Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of WHAT exactly??'

Oil for sale? their own culture(s) have nothing to do with their demise?? They have NO responsibility upon their own destiny..their future....its really all in "American" hands??
Yes really . Ask your president , the one who told the world that it was a crusade .
The ignorance of your people is your problem , not the rest of the world's .

Suffering the brunt of the 'war on terroir ' , you know the one where the USA is the major terrorist ., word has it that it's to steal oil .

[fluffybiscuits]

A Crusade Fermoy...really??

Most Americans don't really care to know what the word crusade means..And for the most part we are oblivious to what our Foreign Policy is... to this day we remain quite 'insular' ..

'Islamic peoples are suffering the brunt of WHAT exactly??'

Oil for sale? their own culture(s) have nothing to do with their demise?? They have NO responsibility upon their own destiny..their future....its really all in "American" hands??



I agree with the general sentiments of that post in that they are quite insular and this is in no way I have to add a general reflection on the education or anything of Americans but their attitude, some are brain washed into believing I believe thanks to right wing media outlets like Fox News that anything called Mohammed in a turban must mean they are a terrorist. The lack of exposure to alternative media sources means that very few get a look in to the real balanced view point of things. Perhaps I am wrong but this is how I percieve it mate.

[C. Flower]

There's a short video here of an interview with the authors of "The Eleventh Day".

It discusses the evidence that the role of Saudis in the 9/11 attack.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7304

[random new yorker]

Yes really . Ask your president , the one who told the world that it was a crusade .
The ignorance of your people is your problem , not the rest of the world's .

Suffering the brunt of the 'war on terroir ' , you know the one where the USA is the major terrorist ., word has it that it's to steal oil .

Here...read THIS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/11/books/review/holy-war-by-nigel-cliff-book-review.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&emc=eta1

...carefully...ALL the words in the article. We'll discuss this later as I have a tight schedule today..

[random new yorker]

I agree with the general sentiments of that post in that they are quite insular and this is in no way I have to add a general reflection on the education or anything of Americans but their attitude, some are brain washed into believing I believe thanks to right wing media outlets like Fox News that anything called Mohammed in a turban must mean they are a terrorist. The lack of exposure to alternative media sources means that very few get a look in to the real balanced view point of things. Perhaps I am wrong but this is how I percieve it mate.

American attitude in general is that they are way to busy to really care about what's going on around the world. This is a huge continent out here, our closest 'relatives' one or two Oceans away....i can expand on this later.. but this is something I would like to highlight here. There is ignorance in America just as there is ignorance in Ireland and in all other developed countries... It is about time you people understand we are not out there to GET you....

Now Fluffy I'd have to say that just coming out of the 9/11 memorial where I was able to finally grieve the mass killing i witnessed that day....i'd say that i am not exactly in the mood for turbans or head scarves of any kind..sorry about my blunt sensitivity at the moment but this is my personal account and does NOT represent opinions of other americans other than my own!

[Fermoy]

Here...read THIS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/11/books/review/holy-war-by-nigel-cliff-book-review.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&emc=eta1

...carefully...ALL the words in the article. We'll discuss this later as I have a tight schedule today..
Mind you manners

[Fermoy]

It is about time you people understand we are not out there to GET you....


Of course you don't ,
unless we people stand in the way of whatever it is that you want to destroy .

[C. Flower]

American attitude in general is that they are way to busy to really care about what's going on around the world. This is a huge continent out here, our closest 'relatives' one or two Oceans away....i can expand on this later.. but this is something I would like to highlight here. There is ignorance in America just as there is ignorance in Ireland and in all other developed countries... It is about time you people understand we are not out there to GET you....

Now Fluffy I'd have to say that just coming out of the 9/11 memorial where I was able to finally grieve the mass killing i witnessed that day....i'd say that i am not exactly in the mood for turbans or head scarves of any kind..sorry about my blunt sensitivity at the moment but this is my personal account and does NOT represent opinions of other americans other than my own!

I do recognise that most Americans don't give even less thought to foreign policy than do most other populations. It's not surprising, as the US appeared to be pretty well resource-independent (oil, food, etc.) for a long time. The US is a subcontinent, as well as a country.

So 9/11 was a huge shock.

The reality is that the US has been colonising resources and killing people outside its borders for most of the last century. In Indonesia, a million people were killed who are hardly ever mentioned. I remember one of the first reactions after 9/11, from Americans I met, was "why does everyone hate us" and also worry about the Patriot Act. Sensible concerns, imo.

I don't "hate the Americans". I think only a very small wealthy elite of Americans are responsible for these wars. As well as a lot of young people dead, there are thousands of former US soldiers who have been disabled in these wars.

[rebellin]

Here is the video LaRouchePac produced "Ten years Later" which goes through the Saudi-British involvement through the BAE al yamama scandal.

http://www.larouchepac.com/10yearslater

[eamo]

I just watched this, seems a lot of very qualified people are wondering why "building 7" which was not hit by a plane decided to collapse. Maybe it was showing solidarity, a seldom seen quality in Ireland.
Give this video two minutes and see does it grab your attention. Not the usual tinfoil hat bregade.
Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org - YouTube

[C. Flower]

I just watched this, seems a lot of very qualified people are wondering why "building 7" which was not hit by a plane decided to collapse. Maybe it was showing solidarity, a seldom seen quality in Ireland.
Give this video two minutes and see does it grab your attention. Not the usual tinfoil hat bregade.
Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded)

Why would anyone have blown up "building 7" ?

[Fermoy]

Why anyone have blown up "building 7" ? For the same reason that the other two were blown up maybe

[Sam Lord]

I just watched this, seems a lot of very qualified people are wondering why "building 7" which was not hit by a plane decided to collapse. Maybe it was showing solidarity, a seldom seen quality in Ireland.
Give this video two minutes and see does it grab your attention. Not the usual tinfoil hat bregade.
Architects & Engineers - Solving the Mystery of WTC 7 - AE911Truth.org - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZEvA8BCoBw&feature=player_embedded)


WTC 7 was not hit by a plane but it was hit by falling debris from the towers.

The video seems to entirely ignore the evidence of the firefighters on the ground who reported a huge hole in the south side, uncontrollable fires that lack of water pressure prevented them from fighting, concerns that the building seemed out of kilter, a noticable buckling in one corner and so forth. They were convinced that it would not stand and pulled all their personnel away from it when noticable creaking noises began.

[Sam Lord]

Ali Soufan's book (or what is left of it after the CIA are finished with their black marker) might be an interesting read.



WASHINGTON — In what amounts to a fight over who gets to write the history of the Sept. 11 attacks and their aftermath, the Central Intelligence Agency is demanding extensive cuts from the memoir of a former F.B.I. agent who spent years near the center of the battle against Al Qaeda.

The agent, Ali H. Soufan, argues in the book that the C.I.A. missed a chance to derail the 2001 plot by withholding from the F.B.I. information about two future 9/11 hijackers living in San Diego, according to several people who have read the manuscript. And he gives a detailed, firsthand account of the C.I.A.’s move toward brutal treatment in its interrogations, saying the harsh methods used on the agency’s first important captive, Abu Zubaydah, were unnecessary and counterproductive.



http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/26/us/26agent.html?pagewanted=all

Soufan, to his credit, threatened to arrest the "contractor" who was torturing Abu Zubaydah .... but the FBI called him home to allow the torturing to continue.

[Fermoy]

WTC 7 was not hit by a plane but it was hit by falling debris from the towers.

The video seems to entirely ignore the evidence of the firefighters on the ground who reported a huge hole in the south side, uncontrollable fires that lack of water pressure prevented them from fighting, concerns that the building seemed out of kilter, a noticable buckling in one corner and so forth. They were convinced that it would not stand and pulled all their personnel away from it when noticable creaking noises began.
None of which answers the 64,000 dollar question , why did the buildings collapse ?
Perhaps the real reasons will never emerge .

[random new yorker]

There's a short video here of an interview with the authors of "The Eleventh Day".

It discusses the evidence that the role of Saudis in the 9/11 attack.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=7304


I have been doing my best to ignore the connections all over the thread but i do feel you are on a mission to link the saudis, to the Bushes, to 9/11, maybe the Bushes ordering 9/11 is the next great conspiracy theory brewing?

If most of the hijackers were Saudi, what is the question really that they had help from other Saudis?? blah blah a PT cruiser(...) NONE of this is NEW information!!
Juma the son of a cleric in NY.. out in the world as a major AL Qaeda operative ...OK check that, It shades light into the lack of communication btw FBI/CIA....as you listen in you see more evidence of lack of communication btw CIA/FBI....again i want to underline NO NEWS there...well known for 10 years....

Take home message: there's a vicious new AL Qaeda operative named Juma, son of a radical NY cleric that left on Sept 11, 2001 and was never seen again in our shores!

[random new yorker]

Mind you manners

Manners?? what manners?? does it say above i am a new yorker??

[random new yorker]

Yes really . Ask your president , the one who told the world that it was a crusade .
The ignorance of your people is your problem , not the rest of the world's .

Suffering the brunt of the 'war on terroir ' , you know the one where the USA is the major terrorist ., word has it that it's to steal oil .


In what decade are you living in??

My president?

Ya know, over here we ROTATE presidents every now and then, like every 4 years...and a president can not govern more than 2 mandates....ahh huumm....yea that's like....errr...
what is it? 8 years... yea...
dumb americans! switching presidents as often as they change shirts ...huh!

[Sam Lord]

None of which answers the 64,000 dollar question , why did the buildings collapse ?
Perhaps the real reasons will never emerge .

The technical aspects of it all have been covered a million times. It is all well known. There is a decent article by Cockburn in Counterpunch about the conspiracy theory:



Herman Soifer, a retired structural engineer, summarized the collapse of Buildings 1 and 2 succinctly, in a letter to me, remarking that since he had followed the plans and engineering of the Towers during construction he was able to explain the collapses to his wife a few hours after the buildings went down.

“The towers were basically tubes, essentially hollow. Tubes can be very efficient structures, strong and economical. The Trade Center tubes effectively resisted vertical loads, wind loads and vibrations and could probably have done very well against earthquakes. However, the relatively thin skin of the hollow tube must be braced at intervals to prevent local buckling of the skin under various possible loads, otherwise the tube itself can go out of shape and lose its strength.

“For their interior bracing, the thin-walled tubes of the Trade Center towers depended primarily on the interior floors being tied to the outer wall shells. These floor beam structures were basically open web joists, adequate for the floor loads normally to be expected. These joist ends rested on steel angle clips attached to the outer walls.

“As the floors at the level of airplane impact caught fire, the open web joists, which could not be expected to resist such fires, softened under the heat, sagged and pulled away from their attachments to the walls. Their weight and the loads they were carrying, caused them to drop onto the next lower floor, which was then carrying double loads also becoming exposed to the heat. Then that floor collapsed, and so it went. But as the floors dropped, they no longer served as bracing for the thin-walled main tubes.

This loss of bracing permitted the walls to buckle outward in successive sections and thus the house of cards effect.”

High grade steel can bend disastrously under extreme heat. The types of steel used in the WTC Towers (plain carbon, and vanadium) lose steel lose half their strength when heated to about 570 C , and even more as temperatures rise, as they did in WTC 1 and 2, to 1100 C.

The conspiracists’ last card is the collapse of WTC building number 7 some hours after the morning attacks. But here again, as with the other two buildings, the explanations offered by the US government’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) are more than adequate. Collapse was caused by the rupturing of the building’s metal framework due to the thermal expansion of its floor beams, which were heated by uncontrolled fires because the water main that supplied the building’s fire suppression system had been cut by the collapse of WTC 1.




http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/the-911-conspiracists-vindicated-after-all-these-years/

[random new yorker]

The technical aspects of it all have been covered a million times. It is all well known. There is a decent article by Cockburn in Counterpunch about the conspiracy theory:



http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/09/02/the-911-conspiracists-vindicated-after-all-these-years/

I had completely given up on offering any kind of rational information as I believe these folks are as blind as they are deaf to scientific evidence of any kind...

But I will leave this one here:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/engineering-ground-zero.html

It is an excellent piece as everything produced by NOVA. As I recall there is a good counter discussion on addressing the major structural problems that FAILED us on 9/11....

[Count Bobulescu]

Sam, I agree with you and RNY, but aw jeez, I thought you told me last week that you had foreswoothed Counterpunch because of their stance on Libya? Cite them when it suits, ignore them when it doesn't............ I haven't clicked RNY's Nova link yet, I don't really need to, but I would suggest conspiracy guys do.

[Fermoy]

Manners?? what manners?? does it say above i am a new yorker??
Your location is not at issue , your deplorable manners are .

[Fermoy]

In what decade are you living in??

My president?

Ya know, over here we ROTATE presidents every now and then, like every 4 years...and a president can not govern more than 2 mandates....ahh huumm....yea that's like....errr...
what is it? 8 years... yea...
dumb americans! switching presidents as often as they change shirts ...huh!

Two claims here .

If as you claim , you are a new yorker and therefore an American , (and if you are an adult ) , he was your president .


If as you claim , he was not your president then you are a mere child .

Which one is it ?

[C. Flower]

For the same reason that the other two were blown up maybe

It would seem to me to be complete overkill to hit the buildings with two planes, losing a number of your own people in the process, and blowing them up from below at the same time.

Even without the persuasive engineering evidence, it just wouldn't make any sense.

[Fermoy]

It would seem to me to be complete overkill to hit the buildings with two planes, losing a number of your own people in the process, and blowing them up from below at the same time.

Even without the persuasive engineering evidence, it just wouldn't make any sense.
Where is the overkill ? How else could the three buildings be demolished without being blown up .

[Sam Lord]

Sam, I agree with you and RNY, but aw jeez, I thought you told me last week that you had foreswoothed Counterpunch because of their stance on Libya? Cite them when it suits, ignore them when it doesn't............

Not every article there by every contributor is bad. There can often be good items. I was put off by the general tone of the Libya coverage which was pretty knee jerk if not downright misinformed. I really don't go there as much as I used to but I might drift back with time. :)

[Kev Bar]

For the same reason that the other two were blown up maybe

Even with all the LSD in the world, did you not spot the planes?

Then shhhhhhhhhhhhh, just between you and me,can I suggest you google this crew called Al Qaeda.

Then Bin Laden responsibility.

Then give up.

<off topic CF>

[C. Flower]

A blog just written by a woman "racially profiled" on 9/11/11 - taken off a plane, cuffed, searched ... gripping piece of writing.

http://shebshi.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/some-real-shock-and-awe-racially-profiled-and-cuffed-in-detroit/

[Fermoy]

Even with all the LSD in the world, did you not spot the planes?

Then shhhhhhhhhhhhh, just between you and me,can I suggest you google this crew called Al Qaeda.

Then Bin Laden responsibility.

Then give up.

<off topic CF>
Are you of the opinion that there were no planes involved ?
Or that some LSD was clouding your thinking ?
Perhaps you should sober up next time before you attempt to take part in any sort of debate.

[Kev Bar]

Are you of the opinion that there were no planes involved ?
Or that some LSD was clouding your thinking ?
Perhaps you should sober up next time before you attempt to take part in any sort of debate.

I think the planes were a decoy to make us all look up at the exact moment 1,000s of demolition experts - all of whom have subsquently been terminated with extreme etc - lashed up both towers, all following Dick Cheney, all with suitcases full of Semtex.
They all planted their explosives and detonated them one by one as they belted down the stairways pushing over and claiming the lives of countless firemen.

Then they all ran down the street screaming in Neo-Con glee and playing hop skotch with human splats.

I mean Jesus Allah and Mary, what other explanation could there be?

[random new yorker]

Two claims here .

If as you claim , you are a new yorker and therefore an American , (and if you are an adult ) , he was your president .


If as you claim , he was not your president then you are a mere child .

Which one is it ?

Fermoy: if you knew anything about New Yorkers you would know that our perceived lack of manners is widely known! ... we do move around briskly, never stop to let the old lady go first, and yes, never say hello or goodbye to anyone, we don't smile much, or look anyone in the eye..cos we are too focused minding our own business (really not a lack of manners....we just have different manners....what we think is polite, is not what most people think is polite).. New Yorkers are for the most part respectful of everyone and the reason we don't say hello is cos you might be from a part of the world where people don't say hello... tolerance and respect for everyone else reigns in the city..

I should also tell you that we are a bit naive and again too busy to come up with fake nationalities or whatever is that you suggest above just for the sake of it...

Anyway Fermoy i want you to make a mental note that you have insulted my intelligence in some previous post and now call me a child while insulting other posters at the same time...

Yes Bush was my president for 8 years, one that I didn't vote for, lets say I am a lot more focused on the current president, the O that I helped vote into office. i find myself in Bush's or Tea Partiers opposite camp but I can't judge what Bush did right.

Top Secret America is here to stay....pretty sure Count B posted this before..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/

...

[C. Flower]

Fermoy: if you knew anything about New Yorkers you would know that our perceived lack of manners is widely known! ... we do move around briskly, never stop to let the old lady go first, and yes, never say hello or goodbye to anyone, we don't smile much, or look anyone in the eye..cos we are too focused minding our own business (really not a lack of manners....we just have different manners....what we think is polite, is not what most people think is polite).. New Yorkers are for the most part respectful of everyone and the reason we don't say hello is cos you might be from a part of the world where people don't say hello... tolerance and respect for everyone else reigns in the city..

I should also tell you that we are a bit naive and again too busy to come up with fake nationalities or whatever is that you suggest above just for the sake of it...

Anyway Fermoy i want you to make a mental note that you have insulted my intelligence in some previous post and now call me a child while insulting other posters at the same time...

Yes Bush was my president for 8 years, one that I didn't vote for, lets say I am a lot more focused on the current president, the O that I helped vote into office. i find myself in Bush's or Tea Partiers opposite camp but I can't judge what Bush did right.

Top Secret America is here to stay....pretty sure Count B posted this before..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/

...


I wonder, Random, if you had time to read this blog post, by a US citizen, profiled on appearance, and yanked off a plane on the 11th.

If Top Secret America is here to stay, does that mean there is no chance of getting a Land of the Free ?

http://shebshi.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/some-real-shock-and-awe-racially-profiled-and-cuffed-in-detroit/

[random new yorker]

A blog just written by a woman "racially profiled" on 9/11/11 - taken off a plane, cuffed, searched ... gripping piece of writing.

http://shebshi.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/some-real-shock-and-awe-racially-profiled-and-cuffed-in-detroit/


Really?? You find this a gripping piece of writing? ... Oh boy!

There were serious threats over the Sept 11 weekend in case you forgot to read the headlines that day.. Security was hightened and in these circumstances edgy.... i didn't read any accounts of the lady being mistreated...what we have here is the police doing their job and mistakes happen....

I am sorry she had to sit in the back of a police car, it is in fact horrible, extremely space constrained and it is humiliating...having had to sit there myself for being the victim of a serious crime i really don't understand what the hell the fuss is about.

Hint: she was worried about peeing and about updating her Facebook and Twitter feeds, and she doesn't like country music and she doesn't like rednecks....reading between the lines will lead you to the immense state of terror she endured.

Thank g-d she was promptly released to quickly blog about this garbage.

[C. Flower]

Really?? You find this a gripping piece of writing? ... Oh boy!

There were serious threats over the Sept 11 weekend in case you forgot to read the headlines that day.. Security was hightened and in these circumstances edgy.... i didn't read any accounts of the lady being mistreated...what we have here is the police doing their job and mistakes happen....

I am sorry she had to sit in the back of a police car, it is in fact horrible, extremely space constrained and it is humiliating...having had to sit there myself for being the victim of a serious crime i really don't understand what the hell the fuss is about.

Hint: she was worried about peeing and about updating her Facebook and Twitter feeds, and she doesn't like country music and she doesn't like rednecks....reading between the lines will lead you to the immense state of terror she endured.

Thank g-d she was promptly released to quickly blog about this garbage.

Ha! I enjoyed that almost as much as I enjoyed her blog. I'd say, until it happened to her, she may have reacted the same way herself.

As it turned out, it was not Americans in NY who were "under threat" it was Americans in Kabul, to which there is a very easy solution.

[Fermoy]

Fermoy: if you knew anything about New Yorkers you would know that our perceived lack of manners is widely known! ... we do move around briskly, never stop to let the old lady go first, and yes, never say hello or goodbye to anyone, we don't smile much, or look anyone in the eye..cos we are too focused minding our own business (really not a lack of manners....we just have different manners....what we think is polite, is not what most people think is polite).. New Yorkers are for the most part respectful of everyone and the reason we don't say hello is cos you might be from a part of the world where people don't say hello... tolerance and respect for everyone else reigns in the city..

I should also tell you that we are a bit naive and again too busy to come up with fake nationalities or whatever is that you suggest above just for the sake of it...

Anyway Fermoy i want you to make a mental note that you have insulted my intelligence in some previous post and now call me a child while insulting other posters at the same time...

Yes Bush was my president for 8 years, one that I didn't vote for, lets say I am a lot more focused on the current president, the O that I helped vote into office. i find myself in Bush's or Tea Partiers opposite camp but I can't judge what Bush did right.

Top Secret America is here to stay....pretty sure Count B posted this before..

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/topsecretamerica/

...

No , nothing intelligent for me to reply to there .
A bit if waffle about how new yorkers are ill manned ,
and a falsehood or two .

[Fermoy]

. And no kerosene will certainly not melt steel, particularly when you consider that tower blocks are primarily built from concrete, steel and gypsum with very little flammable material in the infrastructure.


The same goes for office fixtures and fittings , furniture and stationery etc .
They burnt for longer than the plane fuel did , but still not long enough , or hot enough , to achieve the heat required to affect the structural integrity of the construction steel in either of the two primary WTC buildings .
The cause of the building failures , including WTC 7 , lies elsewhere.

[Sam Lord]

The same goes for office fixtures and fittings , furniture and stationery etc .
They burnt for longer than the plane fuel did , but still not long enough , or hot enough , to achieve the heat required to affect the structural integrity of the construction steel in either of the two primary WTC buildings .
The cause of the building failures , including WTC 7 , lies elsewhere.

For when you have a minute sometime:

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

[Skrimshander]

The same goes for office fixtures and fittings , furniture and stationery etc .
They burnt for longer than the plane fuel did , but still not long enough , or hot enough , to achieve the heat required to affect the structural integrity of the construction steel in either of the two primary WTC buildings .
The cause of the building failures , including WTC 7 , lies elsewhere.

ok... let me tell you about an experience of my own.. back in 1999 while working on a job refurbishing a pub in Dublin, the main support wall at the back of the building had been removed, there were two rsj's supported by about 30 maybe 35acro's in its place and the roof (unusually) was a mix of poured concrete with re bar and some truss supports running through the concrete from one side to the other acting like girders..
so an over exuberant forks driver reverses and takes out a few acro's. the whole back end of the structure collapsed and i d have to say i was shocked at how the acro's bent and gave way. that was with the weight of one roof.
I just cannot grasp how you are not even willing to admit the possibility, that a 90 tonne aircraft close to fully fueled travelling at over 400 mph could not damage a building enough to bring it down. especially considering where the plane hit. the weight of the above floors bearing down on the damaged area and the steel wouldnt have to melt. it just have to be pliable and that doesnt require thousands of degrees in temperature

[Fermoy]

ok... let me tell you about an experience of my own.. back in 1999 while working on a job refurbishing a pub in Dublin, the main support wall at the back of the building had been removed, there were two rsj's supported by about 30 maybe 35acro's in its place and the roof (unusually) was a mix of poured concrete with re bar and some truss supports running through the concrete from one side to the other acting like girders..
so an over exuberant forks driver reverses and takes out a few acro's. the whole back end of the structure collapsed and i d have to say i was shocked at how the acro's bent and gave way. that was with the weight of one roof.
I just cannot grasp how you are not even willing to admit the possibility, that a 90 tonne aircraft close to fully fueled travelling at over 400 mph could not damage a building enough to bring it down. especially considering where the plane hit. the weight of the above floors bearing down on the damaged area and the steel wouldnt have to melt. it just have to be pliable and that doesnt require thousands of degrees in temperature
Interesting wee story .
Anyway lets get back to the actual subject .

[Skrimshander]

Interesting wee story .
Anyway lets get back to the actual subject .

relax chief. i was replying to your post

[Fermoy]

relax chief. i was replying to your post
There is no comparison between the two construction methods , and there is no similarity in the trauma suffered by the structures .

[fluffybiscuits]

There was a very good documentary on about the conspiracy theories the other night that disproved more or less the theory that explosives had been used prior to the planes crashing in. The structures were melted to a point but would not have collapsed unless something like jet fuel had got on to them. I am sure if you google if you will find it on one of the onlines streaming sites or perhaps youtube. Was on national geographic :)

[Fermoy]

There was a very good documentary on about the conspiracy theories the other night that disproved more or less the theory that explosives had been used prior to the planes crashing in. The structures were melted to a point but would not have collapsed unless something like jet fuel had got on to them. I am sure if you google if you will find it on one of the onlines streaming sites or perhaps youtube. Was on national geographic :)

Jet fuel is kerosene . Follow up on that.

[fluffybiscuits]

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/9-11-science-and-conspiracy-4067

[Kev Bar]

Really?? You find this a gripping piece of writing? ... Oh boy!

There were serious threats over the Sept 11 weekend in case you forgot to read the headlines that day.. Security was hightened and in these circumstances edgy.... i didn't read any accounts of the lady being mistreated...what we have here is the police doing their job and mistakes happen....

I am sorry she had to sit in the back of a police car, it is in fact horrible, extremely space constrained and it is humiliating...having had to sit there myself for being the victim of a serious crime i really don't understand what the hell the fuss is about.

Hint: she was worried about peeing and about updating her Facebook and Twitter feeds, and she doesn't like country music and she doesn't like rednecks....reading between the lines will lead you to the immense state of terror she endured.

Thank g-d she was promptly released to quickly blog about this garbage.

I know when Cactus says gripping, you suspect ideological glee and imagine she is sitting there burning the stars and stripes and sewing bunting to celebrate the return of the Taliban.
But...it is a good piece of writing.

[Kev Bar]

Jet fuel is kerosene . Follow up on that.

Seriously...you cannot be talking about sobriety when you dispute Al Qaeda's responsibility for 9/11.

Pray tell Mr Fermoy...who do you thiink assasinated Massoud just before people destroyed the twin towers and adjacent buildings by flying jets into theM?
And who do you think the suicide bombers in the Panshir really were if not Al Qaeda operatives?

Meanwhile back at the ranch: Crusades.

Who brought that term back into the common lexicon?
(No his name sure wasn't George)

If no replies there, let's cut to the bottom line....who do the loons think did 9/11?

To what purpose?
Who What Where When?
Stop insinuating and come out and hit us with the madness.


Where do you get the knowledge that allows you dismiss structural engineers.


In the book this thread is based on, Summer talks about the echo chambers of the internet and how the deranged, the disillusioned, the hate filled, the crazed, the good gone sour, the obsessed, the ignorant all dine out on the minute stakes of their choice.

But fill us in on the larger picture or stop the irresponsible gossip.

Window twitchers are not historians.

Any chance of any of knowledge.

Any sus on substantiation.

Tell us the real role of the House of Saud.

Tell us anything interesting.

Get thee out from behind the arras.

I listen to experts explain how the building could and did fall.

You whisper kerosene like a Kerry auld one would say teen age pregnancy.

Come on.

TELL US.

Until then

I say you are sniffing kerosene.

[People Korps]

Really?? You find this a gripping piece of writing? ... Oh boy!

There were serious threats over the Sept 11 weekend in case you forgot to read the headlines that day.. Security was hightened and in these circumstances edgy.... i didn't read any accounts of the lady being mistreated...what we have here is the police doing their job and mistakes happen....

I am sorry she had to sit in the back of a police car, it is in fact horrible, extremely space constrained and it is humiliating...having had to sit there myself for being the victim of a serious crime i really don't understand what the hell the fuss is about.

Hint: she was worried about peeing and about updating her Facebook and Twitter feeds, and she doesn't like country music and she doesn't like rednecks....reading between the lines will lead you to the immense state of terror she endured.

Thank g-d she was promptly released to quickly blog about this garbage.

Dude....... three karate experts can take a plane, all this stuff is deluded and a waste of our time, your time and your tax payer's money. Our money is wasted by not being able to take food and water onto planes and by the hike in flight costs due to security that is pointless.

The lady was violated for no good reason.

[Kev Bar]

.
The cause of the building failures , including WTC 7 , lies elsewhere.


Once again more street corner whispers.

Tell us.

Where exactly does the cause lie|?

Does the cause lie?

Who does the cause lie with?

Whispering nannies. Insidious insinuation. An isolated fact. A bucket load of gossip.

Once again, and in the nicest possible way, is there any chance you can put up or shut up?

Can we please assess the sanity of your conclusions?

Who did it?

Why?

If you can't answer, I believe there are substitutes for this pathology.

Have you tried Dungeons and Dragons?

[Fermoy]

Seriously...you cannot be talking about sobriety when you dispute Al Qaeda's responsibility for 9/11.

Pray tell Mr Fermoy...who do you thiink assasinated Massoud just before people destroyed the twin towers and adjacent buildings by flying jets into theM?
And who do you think the suicide bombers in the Panshir really were if not Al Qaeda operatives?

Meanwhile back at the ranch: Crusades.

Who brought that term back into the common lexicon?
(No his name sure wasn't George)

If no replies there, let's cut to the bottom line....who do the loons think did 9/11?

To what purpose?
Who What Where When?
Stop insinuating and come out and hit us with the madness.


Where do you get the knowledge that allows you dismiss structural engineers.


In the book this thread is based on, Summer talks about the echo chambers of the internet and how the deranged, the disillusioned, the hate filled, the crazed, the good gone sour, the obsessed, the ignorant all dine out on the minute stakes of their choice.

But fill us in on the larger picture or stop the irresponsible gossip.

Window twitchers are not historians.

Any chance of any of knowledge.

Any sus on substantiation.

Tell us the real role of the House of Saud.

Tell us anything interesting.

Get thee out from behind the arras.

I listen to experts explain how the building could and did fall.

You whisper kerosene like a Kerry auld one would say teen age pregnancy.

Come on.

TELL US.

Until then

I say you are sniffing kerosene.

You are entitled to you opinions , as am I .
You are not entitled to speak on my behalf , to decide what I do or do not dispute .
You are not entitled to insinuate that I am under the influence of mind altering substances .

[Kev Bar]

You are entitled to you opinions , as am I .
You are not entitled to speak on my behalf , to decide what I do or do not dispute .
You are not entitled to insinuate that I am under the influence of mind altering substances .

I am open to having my mind altered.
But by fact.
Not the curtain twitching whispers of an auld one.
Or the gossip of a malcontent.
Or the tedium of time wasting opinion.


Any chance we can drop a few factoids?

So, pray tell, who did it and why?

[Fermoy]

So, pray tell, who did it and why?

Good question ,
and one that has been open for 10 years with out being answered to the satisfaction of all .

[Fermoy]

Any chance we can drop a few factoids?



Go ahead present your factoids , but make sure that they are actual facts .

And the 'we' you mention , is that Kev and Bar ?

Are you two twins ?

[Fermoy]

I am open to having my mind altered.
But by fact.
Not the curtain twitching whispers of an auld one.
Or the gossip of a malcontent.
Or the tedium of time wasting opinion.

:rolleyes:

[random new yorker]

Ha! I enjoyed that almost as much as I enjoyed her blog. I'd say, until it happened to her, she may have reacted the same way herself.

As it turned out, it was not Americans in NY who were "under threat" it was Americans in Kabul, to which there is a very easy solution.

And please tell me.....did we know THAT on Sept 11, 2011....

please explain it to me, cos reality is that i used up my 3h of weekly tv allowance this weekend on other issues....so down below please post a link cos I have missed somethin'

....and even if CIA knew that the threat was in Kabul, why would that change the FBI police proceedings in the US??


My point is, the girrrlll went through some unfair time, and getting profiled sucks, but reality is that her main concern was when was she going to get her hands on her phone so she could tweet and facebook about it...

Go ahead and throw this one on to the bill of rights: freedom to tweet and facebook at all times!

If you want to talk injustice please bring it on but with something I can sink my teeth into!
..

[random new yorker]

I know when Cactus says gripping, you suspect ideological glee and imagine she is sitting there burning the stars and stripes and sewing bunting to celebrate the return of the Taliban.
But...it is a good piece of writing.

...good piece of writing?
I feel it is a decent piece of writing... I guess I set my bar quite high..

so, if i calm down a little.....I did read it all the way to the end..so aside from my outrage re the hyping of this 'c***'...it must be good writing..

[random new yorker]

Dude....... three karate experts can take a plane, all this stuff is deluded and a waste of our time, your time and your tax payer's money. Our money is wasted by not being able to take food and water onto planes and by the hike in flight costs due to security that is pointless.

The lady was violated for no good reason.

Dude, i have done my best but am running out of gas here... this might or might not be a waste of our time, how do you know if you don't try?..... why MY tax payer money?

Have to admit I am in awe of what I read in this thread....it's like a trip to another planet!

Hike in flight costs..i hear you as am getting ready to cross over...gone forever are the days of the $500/non-stop flights to Europe (only way now is to go half way round the world..)

Violated is a mere example in these circumstances, right?

..SECURITY is a lot more on topic re this thread and the issue of profiling bothers me... the question is Should we do racial profiling as an effective means of counter-terrorism or not? I would really like to hear your thoughts on this (not just you PK, but everyone..)

.

[Count Bobulescu]

A blog just written by a woman "racially profiled" on 9/11/11 - taken off a plane, cuffed, searched ... gripping piece of writing.

http://shebshi.wordpress.com/2011/09/12/some-real-shock-and-awe-racially-profiled-and-cuffed-in-detroit/

“Gripping piece of writing” my ass. Utter BS. Without wishing to dispute the facts of matter, this is exactly the sort of turgid BS that gives the interwebs a bad name. Just scroll to the bottom and click on the newspaper report for the essential info. Otherwise, you can read thru endless pseudo psycho drama to learn that the second female interrogator was wearing jeans and T-shirt. Personally, I prefer my female interrogators in bikinis or less. A fcuking break give me! Apologies for using the word pseudo so soon…..

[Count Bobulescu]

My own view is that a certain antipodean poster should, and will eventually, go the way of the recently “dearly depaaated”. Meantime, I would discourage debate. Quoting yourself eventually becomes problematic. That’s why the gummint resorts to buying white coats.

[Fermoy]

Since when were Te WahiPounamu and North America an antipodal pair ?

:rolleyes:

[C. Flower]

There seems to be some sort of meltdown going on in this thread...

[Fermoy]

There seems to be some sort of meltdown going on in this thread...
Jet fuled ? ;) or kerosene :D

[Kev Bar]

Good question ,
and one that has been open for 10 years with out being answered to the satisfaction of all .
The all you refer to are a group of mentally unstable cranks generally jet-fuelled with anti US bias.

I am quite happy with the most of the accepted account of who what where when.

I want you to bring your counter-factual thesis out into the open.

SWo we can see if you are a genius with a vision missed by experts.

Or a sad workaday crank.

I suspect the latter.

So will you please show I am doing you a grave injustice in calling you a crank with an agenda.

Show us the facts.

Skip your sad tales of kerosene.

And skip your expert knowledge of how buildings respond to that which they have never ever been exposed to before - for the moment.

We can get back to your degrees and lifetime experience in the area.

I'm after the big picture.

Once again Fermoy.

Tell us what you believe.

As I asked, let's start with Massoud.

Let's skip your whole 'she was wearing a mini-skirt and what sort og signal does that send out?'.

Let's skip the pub gossip, the bar-stool foresnsics.

Hit us with an explanation.

Or go away.

Once again, the world of Dungeons and Dragons is there for you.

PM and I can even recommend a fwe likely fellow players.

Then you don't have go seeking attention screaming wolf when you see a pussy.

(BTW - do you know the role SS play a role in pussy. SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Overlooked significane in the detail.)

Elucidate.
Or
Medicate.

[Fermoy]

The all you refer to are a group of mentally unstable cranks generally jet-fuelled with anti US bias.

I am quite happy with the most of the accepted account of who what where when.

I want you to bring your counter-factual thesis out into the open.

SWo we can see if you are a genius with a vision missed by experts.

Or a sad workaday crank.

I suspect the latter.

So will you please show I am doing you a grave injustice in calling you a crank with an agenda.

Show us the facts.

Skip your sad tales of kerosene.

And skip your expert knowledge of how buildings respond to that which they have never ever been exposed to before - for the moment.

We can get back to your degrees and lifetime experience in the area.

I'm after the big picture.

Once again Fermoy.

Tell us what you believe.

As I asked, let's start with Massoud.

Let's skip your whole 'she was wearing a mini-skirt and what sort og signal does that send out?'.

Let's skip the pub gossip, the bar-stool foresnsics.

Hit us with an explanation.

Or go away.

Once again, the world of Dungeons and Dragons is there for you.

PM and I can even recommend a fwe likely fellow players.

Then you don't have go seeking attention screaming wolf when you see a pussy.

(BTW - do you know the role SS play a role in pussy. SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Overlooked significane in the detail.)

Elucidate.
Or
Medicate.

This is the time where you provide proof that back up your claims that
" all you refer to are a group of mentally unstable cranks "
with copies of the psychiatric evaluations of each and every one of the group that you refer to .


If you fail to produce those assessments , you will forever brand yourself a liar.

[Sam Lord]

It's probably about time this thread met the fate that normally befalls 9/11 threads.

I'm locking it.