Was National Socialism Left or Right Wing ?

[bormotello]

The main problem of all left wing parties that they say a lot about how to spend and they cannot offer anything apart from "tax rich" in order to get money.
As result if party wants to get more votes, they don't have any choice apart drifting to right
Good example is National Socialist German Workers' Party which started as real socialist party and finished as pure nationalists

[Kid Ryder]

The main problem of all left wing parties that they say a lot about how to spend and they cannot offer anything apart from "tax rich" in order to get money.
As result if party wants to get more votes, they don't have any choice apart drifting to right
Good example is National Socialist German Workers' Party which started as real socialist party and finished as pure nationalists

You know very little about either history or socialism when you assert that the Nazis were originally 'true socialists'. All socialism worthy of the name is internationalist in outlook. Got that? A couple of days browsing on Wikipedia should cure your ignorance, unless of course said ignorance is wilful, in which case you're on your own.

[Griska]

The main problem of all left wing parties that they say a lot about how to spend and they cannot offer anything apart from "tax rich" in order to get money.
As result if party wants to get more votes, they don't have any choice apart drifting to right
Good example is National Socialist German Workers' Party which started as real socialist party and finished as pure nationalists

Dearie me.
Is that old chestnut still on the go?

[bormotello]

You know very little about either history or socialism when you assert that the Nazis were originally 'true socialists'. All socialism worthy of the name is internationalist in outlook. Got that?
There are too many different socialism's around and in general socialism is more about economy rather then about nationalism or internationalism
NSDAP started as anti-Semitic, anti-capitalist, anti-democratic, anti-Marxist, and anti-liberal party. Because socialism is always been considered as alternative to capitalism, Hitler with his early anti-capitalists rhetoric(which quickly disappeared as soon as he realized that there is no alternative to capitalism) can be considered as socialist.

[bormotello]

Dearie me.
Is that old chestnut still on the go?
If you not happy with this comparison, then you need to look on China or Cuba, which are slowly moving away from socialism

[Griska]

If you not happy with this comparison, then you need to look on China or Cuba, which are slowly moving away from socialism

Quite.
However, the Nazis were never socialist.
Which leads us nicely back to the Labour Party!

[bormotello]

Quite.
However, the Nazis were never socialist.

Early Nazis were even more left wing than majority of left wing parties in Europe now



Which leads us nicely back to the Labour Party!
As I mentioned before - absence of realistic ideas how to fix economy
Labour were only good in spending, trick with lowering CT could work only once

[Griska]

Early Nazis were even more left wing than majority of left wing parties in Europe now


Er, the Nazis were virulently anti-Communist.
Please put your internet to good use and have a quick look.
It will take all of 5 seconds for you to realise that you are mistaken.


As I mentioned before - absence of realistic ideas how to fix economy
Labour were only good in spending, trick with lowering CT could work only once

I don't understand what this means.

[C. Flower]

The main problem of all left wing parties that they say a lot about how to spend and they cannot offer anything apart from "tax rich" in order to get money.
As result if party wants to get more votes, they don't have any choice apart drifting to right
Good example is National Socialist German Workers' Party which started as real socialist party and finished as pure nationalists

The National Socialist German Workers' Party started out at the behest of the Freikorps, hard core German military establishment..


Nazism was founded out of the current of the far-right and racist German völkisch nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[9] The ideology was created by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[10] Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic, incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing ideologies, though a majority of scholars identify it as a far right form of politics.[11]


There is nothing left about Nazism. It is a political tactic of "emergency capitalism".

[Holly]

...
There is nothing left about Nazism. It is a political tactic of "emergency capitalism".

It is a mistake to characterize National Socialism as a capitalist party. It was founded as a nationalist working class movement to be an alternative to internationalist communism and it was critical of laissez-faire capitalism which it saw as being a Jewish-dominated creed, denouncing capitalists for war profiteering in World War I. It also criticized the Weimar Republic as being out-of-touch with the German working class in particular. It proposed an economic socialism in order that a popular, centrist nationalist-oriented workers movement might be created that could challenge the rise of Communism, as well as the internationalist left and right in general. Many prominent Nazis such as Ernst Röhm and the Strasser brothers Otto and Georg, took this "socialist" element of "national socialism" seriously.

[C. Flower]

It is a mistake to characterize National Socialism as a capitalist party. It was founded as a nationalist working class movement to be an alternative to internationalist communism and it was critical of laissez-faire capitalism which it saw as being a Jewish-dominated creed, denouncing capitalists for war profiteering in World War I. It also criticized the Weimar Republic as being out-of-touch with the German working class in particular. It proposed an economic socialism in order that a popular, centrist nationalist-oriented workers movement might be created that could challenge the rise of Communism, as well as the internationalist left and right in general. Many prominent Nazis such as Ernst Röhm and the Strasser brothers Otto and Georg, took this "socialist" element of "national socialism" seriously.

Emergency capitalism. About as socialist as the Irish Bank Guarantee.

[Richardbouvet]

Refarding the NSDAP, I don't know where the word "centrist" is coming from. National socialism had racial struggle at the heart of its philosophy. It supported whatever economics was good for the survival of the race. Their socialistic element was superficial, as can be seen fom any analysis of their membership and support base, which was mostly petty-bourgeois plus, of course, gentile big business.

In any event, what is this stuff doing on a Labour party thread? Where are the moderators?

[C. Flower]

Refarding the NSDAP, I don't know where the word "centrist" is coming from. National socialism had racial struggle at the heart of its philosophy. It supported whatever economics was good for the survival of the race. Their socialistic element was superficial, as can be seen fom any analysis of their membership and support base, which was mostly petty-bourgeois plus, of course, gentile big business.

In any event, what is this stuff doing on a Labour party thread? Where are the moderators?

Here. I'll split these posts off to a thread about National Socialism.

[Andrew49]

The main problem of all left wing parties that they say a lot about how to spend and they cannot offer anything apart from "tax rich" in order to get money.
As result if party wants to get more votes, they don't have any choice apart drifting to right
Good example is National Socialist German Workers' Party which started as real socialist party and finished as pure nationalists

Actually still going strong doing comedy routines on You Tube.

[TotalMayhem]

The National Socialist German Workers' Party started out at the behest of the Freikorps

What?

[C. Flower]

What?




In 1920, Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) had just begun his political career as the leader of the tiny and as-yet-unknown German Workers Party (soon renamed the National Socialist German Workers Party, NSDAP) in Munich. Numerous future members and leaders of the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) had served in the Freikorps, including Ernst Röhm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm), future head of the Sturmabteilung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung), or SA, Heinrich Himmler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler), future head of the Schutzstaffel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel), or SS, and Rudolf Höß (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6%C3%9F), the future Kommandant of the Auschwitz concentration camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp).

wikipedia.

[TotalMayhem]

No doubt, many Freikorps fighters saw the NSDAP as an opportunity (and Hitler certainly knew how to put them to "good use"), however, the NSDAP was not founded "at the behest of the Freikorps". Hitler also knew that he had to get rid of them once they have served their purpose (see The Night of the Long Knives).

[Fermoy]

A bit of info to help clear things up a tad



Freikorps

After the First World War former senior officers in the German Army began raising private armies called Freikorps. These were used to defend the German borders against the possibility of invasion from the Red Army. Later they were used against attempts at revolution in Germany.
General Franz Epp led 30,000 soldiers to crush the Bavarian Socialist Republic in March, 1919. It is estimated that Epp's men killed over 600 communists and socialists over the next few weeks.
Herman Ehrhardt, a former naval commander and Wolfgang Kapp, a right-wing journalist, led a group of soldiers to take control of Berlin in March 1920. The Kapp Putsch was defeated by a general strike of trade unionists and Kapp was forced to flee to Sweden.
The Freikorps were dissolved in 1921 and later many of them joined Sturm Abteilung (Storm Section), the private army of Adolf Hitler.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERfreikorps.htm






Nazi Party (NSDAP)


In 1919 Anton Drexler, Gottfried Feder and Dietrich Eckart formed the German Worker's Party (GPW) in Munich. The German Army was worried that it was a left-wing revolutionary group and sent Adolf Hitler, one of its education officers, to spy on the organization. Hitler discovered that the party's political ideas were similar to his own. He approved of Drexler's German nationalism and anti-Semitism but was unimpressed with the way the party was organized. Although there as a spy, Hitler could not restrain himself when a member made a point he disagreed with, and he stood up and made a passionate speech on the subject.
Anton Drexler was impressed with Hitler's abilities as an orator and invited him to join the party. At first Hitler was reluctant, but urged on by his commanding officer, Captain Karl Mayr, he eventually agreed. He was only the fifty-fourth person to join the German Worker's Party. Hitler was immediately asked to join the executive committee and was later appointed the party's propaganda manager.
In the next few weeks Hitler brought several members of his army into the party, including one of his commanding officers, Captain Ernst Roehm. The arrival of Roehm was an important development as he had access to the army political fund and was able to transfer some of the money into the GWP.
The German Worker's Party used some of this money to advertise their meetings. Adolf Hitler was often the main speaker and it was during this period that he developed the techniques that made him into such a persuasive orator.
Hitler's reputation as an orator grew and it soon became clear that he was the main reason why people were joining the party. This gave Hitler tremendous power within the organization as they knew they could not afford to lose him.
In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany.
Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews and other "aliens" would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end.
In February 1920, the NSDAP published its first programme which became known as the "Twenty-Five Points". In the programme the party refused to accept the terms of the Versailles Treaty and called for the reunification of all German people. To reinforce their ideas on nationalism, equal rights were only to be given to German citizens. "Foreigners" and "aliens" would be denied these rights.
To appeal to the working class and socialists, the programme included several measures that would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing in large industries, nationalization of trusts, increases in old-age pensions and free education.
On 24th February, 1920, the NSDAP (later nicknamed the Nazi Party) held a mass rally where it announced its new programme. The rally was attended by over 2,000 people, a great improvement on the 25 people who were at Hitler's first party meeting.
Adolf Hitler knew that the growth in the party was mainly due to his skills as an orator and in the autumn of 1921 he challenged Anton Drexler for the leadership of the party. After brief resistance Drexler accepted the inevitable, and Hitler became the new leader of the organization.
Hitler's ability to arouse in his supporters emotions of anger and hate often resulted in their committing acts of violence. In September 1921, Hitler was sent to prison for three months for being part of a mob who beat up a rival politician.
....
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm

[Holly]

Refarding the NSDAP, I don't know where the word "centrist" is coming from. ...

The NSDAP was centrist inasmuch as it rejected the International Jewish system of banking and financial profiteering as well as unregulated laissez faire capitalism, proposing workers' profit sharing and social support for the poor but it also rejected Bolshevism, believing in citizens' private property rights and the freedom of people to engage in free enterprise, rejecting the wholesale confiscation of farms, shops, and factories by the state. The NSDAP enjoyed wide-ranging support among the working class, small business owners, farmers, professionals, industrialists, and those who feared the Communist threat.

[TotalMayhem]

The NSDAP was centrist inasmuch as it rejected the International Jewish system of banking and financial profiteering as well as unregulated laissez faire capitalism

What makes you believe the international system of banking is Jewish?

[Holly]

What makes you believe the international system of banking is Jewish?

The Nazis believed that since Jews monopolized the banking industry, the whole system of international financial profiteering was Jewish to the core.

[TotalMayhem]

The Nazis believed that since Jews monopolized the banking industry, the whole system of international financial profiteering was Jewish to the core.

But do you believe that Jews monopolised the banking industry?

[Holly]

But do you believe that Jews monopolised the banking industry?

I cannot give an opinion; I haven't studied the matter, TM.

[Richardbouvet]

So a form of politics based on anti-Semitism was centrist. Interesting.

[C. Flower]

So a form of politics based on anti-Semitism was centrist. Interesting.

I would agree with the Wiki entry here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party


The National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (help·info), abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the Nazi Party, was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) prior to a change of name in 1920. The term Nazi is German and stems from Nationalsozialist[4], due to the pronunciation of Latin -tion- as -tsion- in German (rather than -shon- as it is in English), with German Z being pronunced as 'ts' as well.

The party was founded out of the current of the far-right and racist German völkisch nationalist movement and the violent anti-communist Freikorps paramilitary culture that fought against the uprisings of communist revolutionaries in post-World War I Germany.[5] The party was created by Anton Drexler as a means to draw workers away from communism and into völkisch nationalism.[6]

The party's last leader, Adolf Hitler, was appointed Chancellor of Germany by president Paul von Hindenburg in 1933. Hitler rapidly established a totalitarian regime[7][8][9][10] known as the Third Reich.
Nazi ideology stressed the failures of laissez-faire capitalism, communism, economic liberalism, and democracy; advocated Positive Christianity; supported the "racial purity of the German people" and that of other Northwestern Europeans; and claimed itself as the protector of Germany from Jewish influence and corruption. The Nazis persecuted those they perceived as either race enemies or Lebensunwertes Leben, that is "life unworthy of living". This included Jews, Slavs, Roma, and so-called "Mischlinge" along with Communists, homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The persecution reached its climax when the party and the German state which it controlled organized the systematic murder of approximately six million Jews and six million other people from the other targeted groups, in what has become known as the Holocaust. Hitler's desire to build a German empire through expansionist policies led to the outbreak of World War II in Europe.[citation needed]

[TotalMayhem]

[citation needed]

Indeed.

[Richardbouvet]

Sorry Total Mayhem, but what is your point?