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C. Flower
16-07-2011, 02:16 PM
I've been posting on the mass revolt in Syria on the thread on "Arab activism"

Now that an organised opposition is emerging, the situation is moving on.

The appearance of the US and French envoys at demonstrations last Friday week and Hilary Clinton's condemnation of Assad afterwards was an end to the silence that had been maintained while over 1,000 peaceful demonstrators and mutinying soldiers had been killed by Assad's regime.

Only the total intransigeance and courage of the protestors, who repeatedly and in growing numbers have marched out into streets, with banners, to face close range gunfire, forced the US into this position.

Now there is an "official opposition" being put together.

Given what happened in Libya, this is a very dangerous stage, as the Libyan opposition went on to form common cause with the US and NATO and to assault their own people with bombing.

People stepped into leadership positions who had been close to the Gaddafi and who had no real track record in opposition.

The people who have the right to select a leadership are the masses of ordinary people who have demonstrated. I hope they are able to keep control over their "leaders" and to steer their country to a non-sectarian and democratic regime, and push on with the people of the other states who are "rising" to consolidate power in their own hands.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/activists-discuss-ways-to-oust-assad-513037.html

Griska
16-07-2011, 06:35 PM
This is a political struggle, and can only be won politically, and inside the country. This will take time: it is clear from Tunisia, Egypt and elsewhere that the Arab spring will be a long process. In Syria too, we need time to learn lessons, build capabilities, address fears and create the image of a new Syria a country with strong state institutions, as the basis for democracy, but without a power structure over and above that of the state.

I like this.
It addresses the fact that the Syrian struggle is political and requires a Syrian answer.

http://mondediplo.com/blogs/syrians-want-freedom-and-dignity

C. Flower
15-08-2011, 12:53 PM
The bombardment of poor housing areas in Latakia yesterday, by the Syrian navy.

Syrian Military Pound Coastal City - YouTube

People march in support of Latakia

(08.14.2011) Idlib | Ma'arrat Al-Numan stands in solidarity with Latakia - Free Syria - YouTube

Child killed in Latakia (graphic)

(08-14-11) Latakia | Little girl Ala Jablawi Murdered by Assad Thugs - YouTube

TotalMayhem
15-08-2011, 02:08 PM
I believe I'd like to see a link to it ;)

http://www.politicalworld.org/showpost.php?p=169609&postcount=298


I opened this thread to discuss Syria, so unless you have a good reason, I'll be moving these posts.

I only replied to your mentioning Libya in the OP.

C. Flower
15-08-2011, 02:17 PM
http://www.politicalworld.org/showpost.php?p=169609&postcount=298

I only replied to your mentioning Libya in the OP.

I mentioned Libya in the context of what was happening in Syria. If your posts had shed any light on what is happening in Syria I would not have moved them.
I've replied to your post on the Libya thread.

TotalMayhem
15-08-2011, 02:31 PM
Well, Hillary publicly condemned Assad but the good people of Syria shouldn't hold their breath. They are rather safe from Western "liberation" as Syria's oil reserves are marginal. Bigger fish to fry for the West.

C. Flower
18-08-2011, 03:11 PM
Obama calls on Assad to step down - oil sanctions going in place. UK, Britain and Germany also call for Assad to step down. Clinton says they will not intervene as this is not the will of the Syrian people.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/08/18/fact-sheet-syria

Obama's blog on this -

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/08/18/president-obama-future-syria-must-be-determined-its-people-president-bashar-al-assad


Today, President Obama called for the President of Syria, Bashar al-Assad, to step aside and took the strongest financial action action against the Syrian regime thus far. Here is President Obama's full statement on the situation in Syria:

The United States has been inspired by the Syrian peoples pursuit of a peaceful transition to democracy. They have braved ferocious brutality at the hands of their government. They have spoken with their peaceful marches, their silent shaming of the Syrian regime, and their courageous persistence in the face of brutality day after day, week after week. The Syrian government has responded with a sustained onslaught. I strongly condemn this brutality, including the disgraceful attacks on Syrian civilians in cities like Hama and Deir al Zour, and the arrests of opposition figures who have been denied justice and subjected to torture at the hands of the regime. These violations of the universal rights of the Syrian people have revealed to Syria, the region, and the world the Assad governments flagrant disrespect for the dignity of the Syrian people.

The United States opposes the use of violence against peaceful protesters in Syria, and we support the universal rights of the Syrian people. We have imposed sanctions on President Assad and his government. The European Union has imposed sanctions as well. We helped lead an effort at the UN Security Council to condemn Syrias actions. We have coordinated closely with allies and partners from the region and around the world. The Assad government has now been condemned by countries in all parts of the globe, and can look only to Iran for support for its brutal and unjust crackdown.

The future of Syria must be determined by its people, but President Bashar al-Assad is standing in their way.

TotalMayhem
18-08-2011, 03:22 PM
But will Obama let his words follow the bombers?

C. Flower
24-08-2011, 01:32 PM
The army has gone in to Deir el-Zour, eastern Syria, this morning with tanks and has made mass arrests.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0824/breaking32.html

There seems now to be a linked organisation of "Local Co-ordination Committees" - in spite of the repression, organisation seems more coherent than it is in Libya, where much of the opposition is area based, rather than national.

Lapsedmethodist
24-08-2011, 01:55 PM
Well, Hillary publicly condemned Assad but the good people of Syria shouldn't hold their breath. They are rather safe from Western "liberation" as Syria's oil reserves are marginal. Bigger fish to fry for the West.

Oil's got nothing to do with it. The Arab League has no intention of helping to destabilise a regime which is a conduit for Iranian support for Hamas and Hizbollah. The fact that the protesters were burning Hezbollah flags at one stage wouldn't have endeared them to the Arab Long War theorists. Ghadaffi on the other hand was heartily sick of the Palestinians who hung around Tripoli, and funnelled financial aid to corrupt PLO and then PA figures , so he could be targeted by the Arab League on a "nothing to lose here" basis.

fluffybiscuits
24-10-2011, 04:20 PM
The Americans have pulled their ambassador out of Syria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15431926


The US has pulled out its ambassador to Syria, Robert Ford, because of concerns for his safety, officials say.

Mr Ford angered Syrian authorities by showing solidarity with activists involved in an uprising against President Bashar al-Assad's rule.

A US spokesman said Mr Ford had left Damascus at the weekend after "credible threats against his personal safety".

Last month, Mr Ford and colleagues were pelted with eggs and tomatoes when visiting an opposition figure

C. Flower
21-11-2011, 04:36 PM
Interesting interview with the leader of the Free Syrian Army

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111121/%E2%80%98it-our-right-defend-the-syrian-people%E2%80%99

Griska
22-11-2011, 12:20 AM
Robert Fisk in Syria:


‫لقاء مع روبرت فيسك Robert Fisk independet syrian tv 30 10 2011‬‎ - YouTube

C. Flower
22-11-2011, 12:31 AM
via twitter


@cassflower We don't like that the whole world is saying there is civil war & insurgency in Syria, bcz Syrian ppl start defending themselves

They're young ppl who could not take the corruption, injustice. & mafia style gov

According to the Jerusalem Post, the US has assembled and islamic-dominated Transitional Council - same as in Libya.

The US has no problems with Islamic regimes but has the horrors at the thought of progressive democratic or socialist government.





http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246447

Griska
22-11-2011, 12:39 AM
via twitter
[QUOTE]@cassflower We don't like that the whole world is saying there is civil war & insurgency in Syria, bcz Syrian ppl start defending themselves
/quote]

It's a fair point.
Protesters defending themselves hardly constitutes civil war.


According to the Jerusalem Post, the US has assembled and islamic-dominated Transitional Council - same as in Libya.

The US has no problems with Islamic regimes but has the horrors at the thought of progressive democratic or socialist government.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=246447




The U.S. doesn't want social revolution to progress to it's logical conclusion.

C. Flower
23-11-2011, 03:52 PM
Massacre behind closed doors - photo report.

http://www.lemonde.fr/proche-orient/infographe/2011/11/23/syrie-photos-clandestines-d-un-massacre-a-huis-clos_1607977_3218.html

DCon
23-11-2011, 08:18 PM
Won't be long now..


Yesterday we reported that the Arab League (with European and US support) are preparing to institute a no fly zone over Syria. Today, we get an escalation which confirms we may be on the edge. Just out from CBS: "The U.S. Embassy in Damascus urged its citizens in Syria to depart "immediately," and Turkey's foreign ministry urged Turkish pilgrims to opt for flights to return home from Saudi Arabia to avoid traveling through Syria." But probably the most damning evidence that the "western world" is about to do the unthinkable and invade Syria, and in the process force Iran to retaliate, is the weekly naval update from Stratfor, which always has some very interesting if always controversial view on geopolitics, where we find that for the first time in many months, CVN 77 George H.W. Bush has left its traditional theater of operations just off the Straits of Hormuz, a critical choke point, where it traditionally accompanies the Stennis, and has parked... right next to Syria.



http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/Naval_Update_11-23-11_800.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/aircraft-carrier-cvn-77-parks-next-door-syria-just-us-urges-americans-leave-country-immediately

C. Flower
23-11-2011, 08:29 PM
I daresay they have their eyes on Egypt too and don't mind beefing up their presence in the Med.

France24 is reporting MI6 and French covert support to the Free Syrian Army, via Turkey.

Could be true or could be an attempt to get some kudos and an "in" with any new regime.

Count Bobulescu
27-11-2011, 06:07 PM
Arab League votes for sanctions on Syria.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/arab-league-approves-sanctions-against-syria/2011/11/27/gIQAigPm1N_story.html?hpid=z1

The decision is the first of its kind by a body which is often perceived as divided and indecisive, and some members are skeptical. Iraq, Lebanon and Algeria abstained from the vote.
Halting dealings with the central bank will make international trade more difficult, said Chris Phillips of the Economist Intelligence Unit, as will the ban against commercial flights between Syria and Arab countries, which could impact on the business community that has benefited from Assads (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/turkish-pm-criticizes-assad-following-attack-on-turkish-buses-in-syria/2011/11/21/gIQAp5ldiN_story.html) liberalization measures and has thus far remained largely supportive of the government.
Within Syria, anti-government activists said they welcomed the action taken by the Arab League, but some sought more international involvement, calling on the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone on the country and support the group of army defectors and armed dissidents known as the Free Syrian Army.

Holly
27-11-2011, 06:11 PM
It is reported by the BBC this evening that Arab dictators are about to impose economic, trade, and travel sanctions against Syria.
No doubt Qatar will be financing a change of regime strategy as they did in Libya.

C. Flower
19-12-2011, 09:08 PM
Syria signed an agreement with the Arab League today to allow several hundred observers in to monitor protests.

Ironically, it was signed in Egypt where another 10 protestors were killed in the last 24 hours.

From the reports from Syria over the last couple of weeks, there are now far more defected soldiers and there is increasing armed resistance. At least 5,000 people have died so far, the vast majority of them unarmed and peaceful protestors. The demands appear to be for democratic rights and better living standards and for an end to Assad's regime.

bokonon
06-01-2012, 03:03 PM
From the reports from Syria over the last couple of weeks, there are now far more defected soldiers and there is increasing armed resistance. At least 5,000 people have died so far, the vast majority of them unarmed and peaceful protestors. The demands appear to be for democratic rights and better living standards and for an end to Assad's regime.

Perhaps these reports aren't the whole truth:


CIA analysts are skeptical regarding the march to war. The frequently cited United Nations report that more than 3,500 civilians have been killed by Assads soldiers is based largely on rebel sources and is uncorroborated. The Agency has refused to sign off on the claims. Likewise, accounts of mass defections from the Syrian Army and pitched battles between deserters and loyal soldiers appear to be a fabrication, with few defections being confirmed independently. Syrian government claims that it is being assaulted by rebels who are armed, trained, and financed by foreign governments are more true than false.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/nato-vs-syria/


I got the above link from this throught-provoking article:



What we are seeing in Syria is a deliberate and calculated campaign to bring down the Assad government so as to replace it with a regime "more compatible" with US interests in the region.

The blueprint for this project is essentially a report produced by the neo-conservative Brookings Institute for regime change in Iran in 2009. The report - "Which Path to Persia?" - continues to be the generic strategic approach for US-led regime change in the region.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NA05Ak03.html


(That ATOL piece is attributed to an Aisling Byrne of "Conflicts Forum" (http://conflictsforum.org/), an organisation I had never heard of. Googling around, it seems Ms Byrne is the partner of the founder of the organisation, one Alastair Cooke, an ex-MI6 spy who has been accused of "going native" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/middleeast/02crooke.html) in Beirut. It's an interesting angle nonetheless. )

Kev Bar
06-01-2012, 06:45 PM
Perhaps these reports aren't the whole truth:


I got the above link from this throught-provoking article:



(That ATOL piece is attributed to an Aisling Byrne of "Conflicts Forum" (http://conflictsforum.org/), an organisation I had never heard of. Googling around, it seems Ms Byrne is the partner of the founder of the organisation, one Alastair Cooke, an ex-MI6 spy who has been accused of "going native" (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/world/middleeast/02crooke.html) in Beirut. It's an interesting angle nonetheless. )


"In Syria, we see the exact opposite: the majority of Western mainstream media outlets, along with the media of the US's allies in the region, particularly al-Jazeera and the Saudi-owned al-Arabiya TV channels, are effectively collaborating with the "regime change" narrative and agenda with a near-complete lack of questioning or investigation of statistics and information put out by organizations and media outlets that are either funded or owned by the US/European/Gulf alliance - the very same countries instigating the regime change project in the first place."

Curiously the US did not seem to see Al Jazeera as a media ally when it bombed its Kabul and Baghdad offices.

One could also argue that the same people saw Mubarak as a key asset in their desire to reshape the Middle East.

And yet nobody is arguing that the US brought down Mubarak.

Just because a situation conforms to someone's wishes does not mean it is a byproduct thereof.

That is not to say that there will be a great temptation to assist the situation in unfolding in the desired manner.

C. Flower
06-01-2012, 09:23 PM
"In Syria, we see the exact opposite: the majority of Western mainstream media outlets, along with the media of the US's allies in the region, particularly al-Jazeera and the Saudi-owned al-Arabiya TV channels, are effectively collaborating with the "regime change" narrative and agenda with a near-complete lack of questioning or investigation of statistics and information put out by organizations and media outlets that are either funded or owned by the US/European/Gulf alliance - the very same countries instigating the regime change project in the first place."

Curiously the US did not seem to see Al Jazeera as a media ally when it bombed its Kabul and Baghdad offices.

One could also argue that the same people saw Mubarak as a key asset in their desire to reshape the Middle East.

And yet nobody is arguing that the US brought down Mubarak.

Just because a situation conforms to someone's wishes does not mean it is a byproduct thereof.

That is not to say that there will be a great temptation to assist the situation in unfolding in the desired manner.

I watched the demonstrations in Syria from the beginning and have also heard Syrians interviewed. There were ordinary workers and young boys running out into a hail of live fire, week after week, night time protests by torchlight, and eventually, a small number of soldiers jumping ship for no more complicated reason than that they were being asked over and over again to go and shoot peaceful marchers dead in the street.

The issues that people raised in interview were jobs, livelihoods, basic political freedom and democracy. It doesn't matter who comes in to that situation and tries to pull strings, that is what the heart of the thing is about. The same in the Yemen and in Egypt. In the very oil rich states, it is a little different, with more traction in the issue of political freedom and democracy, much less, for obvious reason, on the price of food, health, housing and so on.

Once it is happening, the "outside influences" try to get to work, but they didn't fabricate the situation, nor can they necessarily decide how things will turn out.

The US agenda can be complex and bets can be hedged.

C. Flower
27-01-2012, 11:05 AM
Syria moving towards civil war. Many thousands have died and tens of thousands are in detention. There have been a lot of defections. It is very likely at this stage that a number of different outside states are providing arms and cash, in the hopes of having influence in the outcome.

http://www.economist.com/node/21543538

Sam Lord
27-01-2012, 12:16 PM
France24 is reporting MI6 and French covert support to the Free Syrian Army, via Turkey.


So I take it you have stopped supporting the opposition in Syria.

Dr. FIVE
03-02-2012, 11:48 PM
Something big and bad going down tonight

C. Flower
03-02-2012, 11:54 PM
Hundreds dead, according to Al Jazeera and to a number of tweeters.

Live streaming from Homs (now about an hour old) - sound of gunfire. There is fighting in a number of towns and reports of the army poisoning a town's water supply.

http://bambuser.com/channel/homs.mubasher1/broadcast/2339443

C. Flower
03-02-2012, 11:57 PM
Large-scale coordinated attack on three largest 'FSA-held' areas in #Syria. Just off the phone to #Homs. 'Two hours shelling.' #UNSC #R2P

Many Egyptian tweeters are calling for a mass raid on the Syrian Embassy in Cairo.

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 12:02 AM
Last time the Assads went in like this they killed 30,000


BREAKING: We've just realized AlRastan is also under attack and we've had no reports from there. God knows what is going on. #Syria

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 12:05 AM
Awful,

plenty of handwringing at the UN tomorrow

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 12:10 AM
Fascists.

"There are so many injured - They keep pouring in. We can't do anything to most of them" A Doctor in #Homs by phone from #Syria

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 12:13 AM
Men dead, injured and dying, in a Mosque/ field hospital, Homs, I think. Heavy gunfire and shelling.

‫عشرات ا„‚ت„‰ ˆا„جر*‰ فŠ *Š ا„خا„دŠة 3-2-2012‬‎ - YouTube

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 12:17 AM
Sounds like a lot of stuff going off in that stream. constant explosions

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 12:21 AM
Sounds like a lot of stuff going off in that stream. constant explosions

Homs is being shelled - not the first time by any means, but nothing like this.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 12:24 AM
http://www.elahmad.com/tv/aljazeera_mubasher.htm < May be graphic, or real depending on your perspective

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 12:38 AM
It looks as though there is no Syrian Embassy in Dublin. Only London.

The people in Syria have been nearly a year protesting and withstanding snipers shooting at demonstrators and shelling of houses, tens of thousands in jail, endless raids on homes, but until now, their voices have always sounded completely confident. It's terrible to hear them in shock, so sad, and sounding without hope.

People Korps
04-02-2012, 01:14 AM
It looks as though there is no Syrian Embassy in Dublin. Only London.

The people in Syria have been nearly a year protesting and withstanding snipers shooting at demonstrators and shelling of houses, tens of thousands in jail, endless raids on homes, but until now, their voices have always sounded completely confident. It's terrible to hear them in shock, so sad, and sounding without hope.

Freedom got an AK and an IED and a publicity wing and a body count it is the Arab Winter

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 01:17 AM
Freedom got an AK and an IED and a publicity wing and a body count it is the Arab Winter

...


Ammar Wawi of the FSA has just declared war. All regime army and security locations in Damascus are now targets of the FSA

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 01:21 AM
This is awful

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 01:28 AM
This is awful

It is.

It's 20 years this year since this regime massacred 30,000. Nobody said much about it.

People got in to the Syrian Embassy tonight in Cairo and were driven out by shooting by the Egyptian army.

There's firing again in Port Said tonight. Things are very edgy indeed in Egypt.

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 01:29 AM
Hospital floor.

&#x202b;فلاش ب*ر دماء شهداء مجزرة الخالدية ب*مص في ا*دى المشفافي&#x202c;&lrm; - YouTube

PaddyJoe
04-02-2012, 01:30 AM
238 killed tonight in Homs.....christ..

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 01:36 AM
238 killed tonight in Homs.....christ..

There are reports coming in of protests all across Syria in solidarity with Homs.

Also reports, unconfirmed, that the Syrian Embassy in Greece is on fire.

There is a guy on live stream from Cairo asking for help, that protestors in the Syrian Embassy are being shot at, asking people to go to the embassy.

Ah Well
04-02-2012, 01:40 AM
Perhaps this is the beginning of the end of this regime.

However one has to ask what shall ensue, thinking with regard to this Free Syrian Army

After all, we have the military in Egypt and look where that is

Lot of instability to come round that part of the Globe perhaps

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 01:44 AM
Perhaps this is the beginning of the end of this regime.

However one has to ask what shall ensue, thinking with regard to this Free Syrian Army

After all, we have the military in Egypt and look where that is

Lot of instability to come round that part of the Globe perhaps

There can't be anything else, with a massive population of young people, many of them educated, with no work.

There is lots of instability to come here too. Greece isn't too far from the same.

The military were always in Egypt and in Syria.

The protestors in Syria are normal people. They will have to continue to try to arm themselves, because Assad will keep killing until he's stopped.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 01:48 AM
Absolutely amazes me. You think of the weekly dose of fear used to rule here. No money for services, atms. Where are we going to get the money.

Death squads walking around hospitals, executing people in their homes and all these people having kept going for a year. And whatever life they had before

Ogiol
04-02-2012, 04:01 AM
the protesters in syria are normal people? who told u that, sky news?... the only relyable source i have is a spanish friend of mine who lived there for 2 years before being ORDERED to leave by the spanish embassy. 'normal people' do not recieve millions of dollars and arms, nor instruction from the cia.
'continue to try to arm themselves', jaysus, get a grip, the arms are quite obviously coming from the yanks and israelis.. do you really think they manufacture arms themselves???

just to finish the rant, do you really think the 'opposition' in venezuela are just normal people??

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 09:10 AM
the protesters in syria are normal people? who told u that, sky news?... the only relyable source i have is a spanish friend of mine who lived there for 2 years before being ORDERED to leave by the spanish embassy. 'normal people' do not recieve millions of dollars and arms, nor instruction from the cia.
'continue to try to arm themselves', jaysus, get a grip, the arms are quite obviously coming from the yanks and israelis.. do you really think they manufacture arms themselves???

just to finish the rant, do you really think the 'opposition' in venezuela are just normal people??

On what do you base that ? I have watched and listened to them for a year. They are ordinary (from their dress, poor) people who can't go on living under the present regime. I have never seen the CIA go out and protest unarmed through hails of bullets and never will.

Of course the CIA and the Israelis, the Russians and whoever you like are crawling all over the situation. That is how the Assads have held power for two generations - they have played a balancing act between external powers and internal divisions. But now the crisis in North Africa and the Middle East means that all of these Bonapartist dictators are having to confront their own populations, who don't have jobs, homes, or bread, and who are demanding them.

The crisis is driven by overproduction, coinciding with rising oil prices, and at the same time the destabilising shift of manufacture to the east. This along with a bubble of toxic debt in the financial system that is imploding one state's economy after another.

Chavez will bit have any answers either. People have tried every which way to protract capitalist economy, and now it is down to the classic last resorts of dictatorship and starvation. What's going on in Syria could well be replicated in Greece if the current Government is allowed to take its course and across Europe.

Time to call time on it, although it won't be easy.

Donal Og
04-02-2012, 10:28 AM
On what do you base that ? I have watched and listened to them for a year. They are ordinary (from their dress, poor) people who can't go on living under the present regime. I have never seen the CIA go out and protest unarmed through hails of bullets and never will.

Of course the CIA and the Israelis, the Russians and whoever you like are crawling all over the situation. That is how the Assads have held power for two generations - they have played a balancing act between external powers and internal divisions. But now the crisis in North Africa and the Middle East means that all of these Bonapartist dictators are having to confront their own populations, who don't have jobs, homes, or bread, and who are demanding them.

The crisis is driven by overproduction, coinciding with rising oil prices, and at the same time the destabilising shift of manufacture to the east. This along with a bubble of toxic debt in the financial system that is imploding one state's economy after another.

Chavez will bit have any answers either. People have tried every which way to protract capitalist economy, and now it is down to the classic last resorts of dictatorship and starvation. What's going on in Syria could well be replicated in Greece if the current Government is allowed to take its course and across Europe.

Time to call time on it, although it won't be easy.

Syria has the potential to be the messiest revolution to put it very mildly.In his brilliant book about Christians in the Middle East, From the Holy Mountain,William Dalrymple spoke at great length to Syriac,Armenian Orthodox,Maronite and a plethora of other Christians in the region.On one thing they all agreed:Syria is the only country where they are not persecuted.They all to a man and woman dread 'another Iraq' where a military dictatorship is replaced by sectarian chaos.

If it all goes tits up we will doubtless be able to speak to many of them in person,in a local refugee centre.Then -as surely as night follows day - we will have articles complaining about the influx,written by the same hacks who say we should join NATO.:(:(

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 10:35 AM
Syria has the potential to be the messiest revolution to put it very mildly.In his brilliant book about Christians in the Middle East, From the Holy Mountain,William Dalrymple spoke at great length to Syriac,Armenian Orthodox,Maronite and a plethora of other Christians in the region.On one thing they all agreed:Syria is the only country where they are not persecuted.They all to a man and woman dread 'another Iraq' where a military dictatorship is replaced by sectarian chaos.

If it all goes tits up we will doubtless be able to speak to many of them in person,in a local refugee centre.Then -as surely as night follows day - we will have articles complaining about the influx,written by the same hacks who say we should join NATO.:(:(

Religious persecution is in the main a card played by politicians. In Egypt an essential feature of the movement was active solidarity demonstrations between Christians and Moslems, who linked arms to protect each others prayers in Tahrir Square. I saw Christians waking up Moslems and telling them it was time to pray lol :)

There have been similar solidarity protests in Syria where the Sunni Shia difference is what the ruling regime play on.

Divide and rule, or try to.

It has all gone tits up already, so far as I can see, and can't be resolved until Assad is gone. In fact, none of these uprisings will be resolved individually, it's a world issue.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Russia and China veto the UN SC draft resolution on Syria

Ah Well
04-02-2012, 05:19 PM
Russia and China veto the UN SC draft resolution on Syria

Just to make things worse than they actually are (which is pretty bad)

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 05:20 PM
France and US lecturing about blood on the hands of certain members

riposte
04-02-2012, 05:21 PM
Russia and China veto the UN SC draft resolution on Syria

only right too.........

CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS

CHAPTER I: PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES

7. Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 06:14 PM
France and US lecturing about blood on the hands of certain members

Two wrongs do not make a right. Up to 50,000 died in Libya in six months with very little complaint from anyone and the blessing of the UN.

But the relentless army raids on towns and suburbs, pulling people from their homes, day in day out shooting of protestors, torture, the image of Assad's brother, gloating, strolling among dead bodies taking photos on his mobile phone, the image of crowds of Assad supporters giving Nazi salutes, towns being shelled, protests against tanks No to that.

One thing bemuses me. The Assad cyberwar machine is usually very good at blocking videos, but yesterday videos and live streams were getting out.

RTE nevertheless says that the deaths were unconfirmed. I think anyone who watched what was transmitted could confirm them.

Dr. FIVE
04-02-2012, 06:33 PM
RTE nevertheless says that the deaths were unconfirmed. I think anyone who watched what was transmitted could confirm them.

I was difficult to tell if I was looking at the living or dead at some stages

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 06:34 PM
I was difficult to tell if I was looking at the living or dead at some stages

At some stages, we were looking at the dying.

Sam Lord
04-02-2012, 07:36 PM
France and US lecturing about blood on the hands of certain members

Well, having overstepped the mark by a mile on the Libyan resolution what did they expect. They are unlikely to ever get another like it.

C. Flower
04-02-2012, 07:40 PM
Hilary Clinton - on the "game"

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/02/04/what_s_the_endgame_in_syria_clinton_doesn_t_know

Dr. FIVE
06-02-2012, 02:15 AM
Same story again tonight

PaddyJoe
06-02-2012, 02:32 AM
Same story again tonight
Doesn't look good:(

C. Flower
06-02-2012, 09:40 AM
#Homs is under heavy bombarding right now #Daraa #Syria

@daraanow

I hope they are ready and prepared to fight.

riposte
06-02-2012, 12:43 PM
Well, having overstepped the mark by a mile on the Libyan resolution what did they expect. They are unlikely to ever get another like it.

Sam they only use the UN to suit themselves. See http://www.darkpolitricks.com/un-resolutions-against-israel/


only right too.........

CHARTER OF THE UNITED NATIONS

CHAPTER I: PURPOSES AND PRINCIPLES

7.Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter


Quote from Rick Rozoff of RT.

Syrian opposition groups operate with complete impunity inside Turkey*– which is a NATO member*– with a green light from the Turkish government. Without arms and sponsorship from outside Syria, the opposition would never dare to take up arms against the Syrian army, Rozoff concludes.

Thus, Damascus is stripped of its natural right to protect itself from foreign assault.

“Were armed groups to invade the territory of the United States from Mexico or Canada, I can assure you Washington’s response would not be limited to a domestic one,”

C. Flower
22-02-2012, 03:29 PM
Two western journalists have been killed in Homs while reporting there.

One of the people who has provided live streams watched here has also been killed. The bravery of people demonstrating in Syria under live fire and putting reports and live streams on line is almost inconceivable.

They deserve their liberation and to be able to determine their own future.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17124786


Sunday Times reporter Marie Colvin, an American, and award-winning French photographer Remi Ochlik died when a shell hit a makeshift media centre in the Baba Amr district.

Opposition-held areas of Homs have been besieged since 4 February.

Thousands have died in unrest against the rule of President Bashar al-Assad.

More than 40 people died on Tuesday alone, including Rami al-Sayed, a man who broadcast a live video stream from Homs used by world media.

Mr Sayed was fatally wounded by shrapnel during the shelling of Baba Amr. His brother posted a video of his body in a makeshift hospital.

The Red Cross has called on the government and rebels to agree to a daily ceasefire, to allow medical supplies to reach the worst affected areas and get civilians out, but there is no sign yet of this being agreed.

Kev Bar
22-02-2012, 09:19 PM
Vivid footage from Homs.


http://bcove.me/jyrns385

Sam Lord
22-02-2012, 09:33 PM
The bravery of people demonstrating in Syria under live fire and putting reports and live streams on line is almost inconceivable.


30 were killed on Tuesday alone. The slaughter will go on and on. The Assad regime is digging in for the long haul. I saw one minister quoted somewhere recently as talking about a 4 year campaign.:(

Sam Lord
22-02-2012, 09:51 PM
Vivid footage from Homs.


http://bcove.me/jyrns385

Excellent coverage. Thanks.

Ogiol
22-02-2012, 10:08 PM
they do deserve their liberation, but they made the mistake of buying US, Brit and other western powers arms, this becoming pawns to the world geopolitical game. I hope they fight well, but it seems they have dug their own grave.

C. Flower
22-02-2012, 10:11 PM
30 were killed on Tuesday alone. The slaughter will go on and on. The Assad regime is digging in for the long haul. I saw one minister quoted somewhere recently as talking about a 4 year campaign.:(

The people look unstoppable. Now they are getting arms, and now that Damascus has joined the protests, it is possible that things might move faster.

C. Flower
22-02-2012, 10:13 PM
they do deserve their liberation, but they made the mistake of buying US, Brit and other western powers arms, this becoming pawns to the world geopolitical game. I hope they fight well, but it seems they have dug their own grave.

From that footage, they are getting arms by capture, and they have got them through defection. The West is clearly trying to get into this, but it is a different situation from Libya, there is a well-developed mass movement on the ground involving women and children as well as men.

Sam Lord
22-02-2012, 11:44 PM
..... it is a different situation from Libya, there is a well-developed mass movement on the ground involving women and children as well as men.

:confused: You'll have to explain that one to me.

Will you still support the revolution if they ask the west for arms and these are provided? Or will we then be hearing about all the benefits of the decades of the Assad dynasty and how many millions went on demonstration in favour of the regime?

C. Flower
23-02-2012, 07:31 AM
:confused: You'll have to explain that one to me.

Will you still support the revolution if they ask the west for arms and these are provided? Or will we then be hearing about all the benefits of the decades of the Assad dynasty and how many millions went on demonstration in favour of the regime?

Please tell me about all the benefits of the Assad dynasty. I hadn't noticed them.

I would be (as are many anti-Asssad Syrians) opposed to NATO bombing. Infiltration by Special Ops people from NATO states is already reported, and is dangerous - the last thing these military agents are there for is to establish a popular and democratic regime, with greater equality and better living standards, which is what the Syrians in opposition want.

The situation is very different in Syria from Libya. In Syria there is a well established civilian mass movement which is political in character and which has been gaining ground and experience consistently for a year. The Libyan movement was decapitated swiftly by military intervention after a few days. There was no time or opportunity for the development of a mass movement and after the defeat of Gaddafi it was evident that no leadership had developed. The TNC had to scrape around the Universities of the globe to pull together a few random heads for a cabinet. Libya's public oil resources are being privatised, its infrastructure is in pieces, it has no effective government and different militias seem to be more concerned about their local patch than in building a new regime to replace the old one. The TNC is a stooge body and if/when there is an election, the Muslim Brotherhood, which is a party of business and pro US, is the only body with an organisation that could win one.

Sam Lord
23-02-2012, 01:37 PM
I would be (as are many anti-Asssad Syrians) opposed to NATO bombing.


So you would not be opposed to the West providing arms?





The situation is very different in Syria from Libya. In Syria there is a well established civilian mass movement which is political in character and which has been gaining ground and experience consistently for a year. The Libyan movement was decapitated swiftly by military intervention after a few days. There was no time or opportunity for the development of a mass movement and after the defeat of Gaddafi it was evident that no leadership had developed.


I'd be very interested in your view of what the politics of this well established mass movement is and who are its leaders. For as far as I can discern the Syrian opposition politically is comprised of a myriad of contending groups. Islamists, secularists, socialists and communists, pro-westerners. etc. Then you have those outside the country who view themselves as the government in exile and those inside the country taking part in thestruggle. On the military side the Free Syrian Army is, of course, accountable to no one but itself.

Kev Bar
23-02-2012, 01:41 PM
So you would not be opposed to the West providing arms?





I'd be very interested in your view of what the politics of this well established mass movement is and who are its leaders. For as far as I can discern the Syrian opposition politically is comprised of a myriad of contending groups. Islamists, secularists, socialists and communists, pro-westerners. etc. Then you have those outside the country who view themselves as the government in exile and those inside the country taking part in thestruggle. On the military side the Free Syrian Army is, of course, accountable to no one but itself.

At a guess, and just looking at that remarkable footage I posted from Homs, I would imagine the Free Syrian Army owes as much to journalistic convenience as it does to logistic cohesion.

Sam Lord
23-02-2012, 01:56 PM
At a guess, and just looking at that remarkable footage I posted from Homs, I would imagine the Free Syrian Army owes as much to journalistic convenience as it does to logistic cohesion.

The FSA very much exists but I would be surprised if those doing the fighting in the video you posted were from it. They did not seem to act like trained soldiers (the FSA is comprised entirely of Syrian Army deserters to my knowledge) and many had the look of ... Ummm, dare I say .....Islamists.

Kev Bar
23-02-2012, 02:14 PM
The FSA very much exists but I would be surprised if those doing the fighting in the video you posted were from it. They did not seem to act like trained soldiers (the FSA is comprised entirely of Syrian Army deserters to my knowledge) and many had the look of ... Ummm, dare I say .....Islamists.

I didn't mean to imply it does not exist...merely the fact journos are more likely to use it to cover anyone with a gun.
And the term then hints at a unity that might belie the reality.
The reality in that footage, as you noted, seemed quite chaotic.

Sam Lord
23-02-2012, 03:13 PM
I didn't mean to imply it does not exist...merely the fact journos are more likely to use it to cover anyone with a gun.
And the term then hints at a unity that might belie the reality.


You appear to be correct.

This is the most insightful item on the Syrian armed opposition that I could find. The armed resistance appears to date back to last April and is very fragmented.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/02/201221315020166516.html

Kev Bar
23-02-2012, 03:40 PM
You appear to be correct.

This is the most insightful item on the Syrian armed opposition that I could find. The armed resistance appears to date back to last April and is very fragmented.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/02/201221315020166516.html

Yeah.
One certainly didn't see much sign of military training amongst the fighters in the Homs footage.

C. Flower
23-02-2012, 08:01 PM
Yeah.
One certainly didn't see much sign of military training amongst the fighters in the Homs footage.

Exactly. Light weapons, and making it up as they went along.

Marie Colvin's last report for the Sunday Times.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/news/article874796.ece#page-1

C. Flower
23-02-2012, 08:14 PM
You appear to be correct.

This is the most insightful item on the Syrian armed opposition that I could find. The armed resistance appears to date back to last April and is very fragmented.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/02/201221315020166516.html

That's a very good article.


They fight for a multitude of reasons: for their friends, for their neighbourhoods, for their villages, for their province, for revenge, for self-defence, for dignity, for their brethren in other parts of the country who are also fighting. They do not read religious literature or listen to sermons. Their views on Islam are consistent with the general attitudes of Syrian Sunni society, which is conservative and religious.


While the resistance is becoming increasingly well-armed, some groups complain they don't have enough weapons.
Because there are many small groups in the armed opposition it is difficult to describe their ideology in general terms. The Salafi and Muslim Brotherhood ideologies are not important in Syria and do not play a significant role in the revolution. But most Syrian Sunnis taking part in the uprising are themselves devout. Many fighters were not religious before the uprising, but now pray and are inspired by Islam, which gives them a creed and a discourse. Many believe they will be martyred and go to paradise if they die. They are not fighting for Islam but they are inspired by it. Some drink alcohol, which is forbidden in Islam, and do not pray. And their brothers in arms do not force them to pray.

They are the people of Syria. In interviews, I've heard them express the same views as generally across the "Arab Spring" - resistance against opression and wanting a future for themselves and their children.

Sam Lord
23-02-2012, 08:19 PM
Exactly. Light weapons, and making it up as they went along.

Marie Colvin's last report for the Sunday Times.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/news/article874796.ece#page-1

I feel moved to point out that what is happening in Baba Amr is exactly what would have happened to Bengazi if Gaddafi had had his way. A well trained army equipped with heavy weaponry exacting a huge toll on a civilian population protected essentialy by local volunteers with AK-47s.

Justin Casey
15-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Key staff from Al Jazeeras Beirut Bureau have resigned citing bias in the channels stance on the conflict in Syria.

Bureau Managing Director Hassan Shaaban reportedly quit last week, after his correspondent and producer had walked out in protest.

A source told the Lebanese paper Al Akhbar that Al Jazeeras Beirut correspondent Ali Hashem had quit over the channels stance on covering events in Syria. " his position [which] changed after the station refused to show photos he had taken of armed fighters clashing with the Syrian Army in Wadi Khaled. Instead [Al Jazeera] lambasted him as a shabeeh [implying a regime loyalist], a source told Lebanese press.

Ali Hashem was also infuriated by Al Jazeeras refusal to cover a crackdown by the King of Bahrain while twisting its Syria angle. [In Bahrain], we were seeing pictures of a people being butchered by the 'Gulf's oppression machine', and for Al Jazeera, silence was the name of the game, he said.

The Beirut bureaus producer also quit claiming Al Jazeera had totally ignored Syrias constitutional reform referendum, which saw a 57% turnout with 90% voting for change.

Ghassan Ben Jeddo, who had been the head of the Beirut Bureau before resigning almost a year ago, said that Al Jazeera was biased in covering the Arab Spring, especially in Syria and Bahrain.

I do believe that Al Jazeera and other channels were not balanced in dealing with the events, he said. For instance, with respect to the events in Syria and Bahrain, we started to invite guests from America who only criticize the regime in Syria and support the regime in Bahrain and persons who justify NATO intervention. This is unacceptable.

More...Al Jazeera exodus: Channel losing staff over bias (http://rt.com/news/al-jazeera-loses-staff-335/)

Al-Jazeera correspondents resign over biased coverage of Syria


Television channels have turned into political parties, pushing the agenda for some outside forces, former Al Jazeera correspondent in Beirut, Ali Hashem, told RT. Hashem has come in spotlight after resigning from the television citing its bias.

In emails leaked by Syrian hackers, Ali Hashem vented his anger over Al Jazeera's one-sided coverage of Syria and its refusal to cover the events in Bahrain. In an exclusive interview with RT, the former Beirut correspondent Hashem refrained from discussing his resignation, but stressed that these days, independent media is a myth.

There is no independent media anymore. It is whose agenda is paying the money for the media outlet, he said. Politicization of media means that media outlets are today like political parties. Everyone is adopting a point of view, fight for it and bring all the tools and all the means they have in order to make it reach the biggest amount of viewers.

It is now the job of the viewer to compare the news from several different sources and then make his own conclusions, the journalist believes. Today we are in the era of open source information and everyone can reach whatever information he wants.

Hashem said the problem with this picture is that some news outlets can reach bigger audiences than others. What they say will [seem] to be a fact while it might not be the fact, he said.

More...
No independent journalism anymore ex-Al Jazeera reporter (http://rt.com/news/hashem-al-jazeera-resignation-523/)

'No independent journalism anymore' ex-Al Jazeera reporter

Justin Casey
15-03-2012, 08:12 PM
Frustrated by the failure of diplomats to end the killings in Syria, activists are betting stars such as Natalie Portman and the Internet can be more effective.

Celebrities have rallied today, the first anniversary of the conflict, in support of a message to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and the United Nations: Stop One Year of Bloodshed.

Actresses Susan Sarandon and Portman penned hand-written notes which campaigners posted on Facebook Inc. (FB)s social networking website. On YouTube, there is a one-minute video montage of celebrities, such as actor Patrick Stewart from Star Trek, holding up Unite for Syria signs. Pop stars Nelly Furtado and Annie Lennox posted from their personal Twitter Inc. accounts to make the topic trend the micro-blogging website.

The idea is that celebrities will draw attention to the situation in Syria, increasing the weight of world public opinion on Syrias leader and his ally Russia, said Philippe Bolopion, UN director at Human Rights Watch in New York.

More... Natalie Portman Joins Stars Using Facebook Against Assad (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-14/natalie-portman-joins-stars-using-facebook-against-assad)

C. Flower
15-03-2012, 08:44 PM
Frustrated by the failure of diplomats to end the killings in Syria, activists are betting stars such as Natalie Portman and the Internet can be more effective.

Celebrities have rallied today, the first anniversary of the conflict, in support of a message to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and the United Nations: Stop One Year of Bloodshed.

Actresses Susan Sarandon and Portman penned hand-written notes which campaigners posted on Facebook Inc. (FB)s social networking website. On YouTube, there is a one-minute video montage of celebrities, such as actor Patrick Stewart from Star Trek, holding up Unite for Syria signs. Pop stars Nelly Furtado and Annie Lennox posted from their personal Twitter Inc. accounts to make the topic trend the micro-blogging website.

The idea is that celebrities will draw attention to the situation in Syria, increasing the weight of world public opinion on Syrias leader and his ally Russia, said Philippe Bolopion, UN director at Human Rights Watch in New York.

More... Natalie Portman Joins Stars Using Facebook Against Assad (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-14/natalie-portman-joins-stars-using-facebook-against-assad)

Does Nelly have a vote on the Security Council ?

Justin Casey
16-03-2012, 12:46 AM
For those who arent regular viewers of RT (formerly known as Russia Today), the Kremlin-financed information network, or to those who have not visited RTs YouTube site you are missing some pretty heavy shelling in the propaganda war over Syria.

During the past few days, RT has been banging its drum about the inherent bias in coverage of Syria and most of the criticism has been aimed directly at Al Jazeera.

...

Clearly, those financing RT have a stake in what is happening in Syria. And unlike many of the 24/7 English-language satellite networks that have sprung up in the past decade, RT lacks sophistication in hiding its propaganda intentions. To someone familiar with the propaganda trends of the Cold War, RT often feels like the electronic version of Pravda from the Soviet era, or an English-language version of Vremya: the focus is on demonizing the West by showing riots and violence in the U.S. and its allies and how the West seems to be in chaos or out for military domination of the world.

On the business-side, RT is competing for viewers in the English-language media sphere with Al Jazeera, which is now rivaling even the BBC for viewers, and some would say verisimilitude. The network is not only the leader in Arabic-speaking global media but increasingly in English too.

...

This isnt the first time Al Jazeera has been accused of steering coverage. The network has had defections over differences of opinion regarding editorial philosophies in the past too. And the network has gone through its own top-down purges (on both the English-language and Arabic services) to put it more firmly in the hands of the family of Qatari Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa al-Thani. (The emirs cousin Sheikh Hamad bin Thamer al-Thani is directly in charge of Al Jazeera.)

However, most casual viewers in the pan-Arab satellite world or the greater viewing public globally dont know much about Qatar, its financing of Al Jazeera, or its larger diplomatic aims (and how Al Jazeera projects Qatars soft power goals). So when Qatars Prime Minister Hamad bin Jassim al-Thani (another cousin of the emir) appears on Al Jazeera commenting about the Syrian situation his statements take on greater meanings. They certainly resonate beyond Syria to Qatars neighbor Iran, just across the Persian Gulf. Although Qatar has been active in promoting change in Syria (and in allowing the U.S. a major base of operations in the Gulf region) it maintains good relations with Iran and Hezbollah.

More...The Propaganda War Over the Syrian Revolt (http://sutradharsmarket.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/rt-vs-al-jazeera-the-propaganda-war-over-the-syrian-revolt/)

C. Flower
18-03-2012, 12:33 PM
Mary Fitzgerald of the IT is on the MF Show, talking about Syria.

Eoin O'Neachtain (sp.) is reminding us that 20,000 people were killed by the Assads 30 years ago, to end oppostion there.

The numbers of people dead in Syria now seems to be well over 10,000 and there is fighting as well as demonstrations.

Fitzgerald is saying that emails leaked by the Guardian during the weel

Bashar Assad referring to the "rubbish laws on elections" and his wife spending 3,500 on shoes in London.

O'Neachtain is saying that Homs is a Christian city predominantly. The economy has been stagnant for 30 years and this is the real problem. It doesn't have that much oil, and is spending hugely on arms.

O'Neachtain thinks that Assad will survive. The Assad regime came about by military coup and has always been repressive.

He is rightly diagnosing the Arab Spring as arising from economic stagnation and rising fuel and food costs.

riposte
18-03-2012, 06:28 PM
Fisk says "if they adopt the best of the west" .....is there anything good about the "west?"

Sam Lord
18-03-2012, 09:46 PM
Bolivarian Alliance supports Assad. Sigh.



On February 5, the heads of state and government of the Bolivarian Alliance for the People's of Our America (ALBA) (Antigua and Barbuda, Bolivia, Cuba, Dominica, Ecuador, Nicaragua, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Venezuela) issued the following Communiqu:

The heads of state and government of the Bolivarian Alliance for the Peoples of Our America (ALBA) reiterate their condemnation of the systematic policy of interference in and destabilization of the brother Syrian Arab Republic, the aim of which is to impose, by force, regime change on the Syrian people.

The ALBA member states condemn the acts of armed violence that irregular groups supported by foreign powers have unleashed against the Syrian people. The member states hope that the Syrian society will return to calm and develop in peace.

The ALBA countries reiterate their support for the policy of reforms and national dialogue promoted by the government of President Bashar al Assad, seeking to find a political solution to the current crisis, respecting the sovereignty of the Syrian people and the territorial integrity of that brother Arab country.

Caracas, 5 February 2012



I wonder what they think gives Assad any legitimacy...

C. Flower
18-03-2012, 10:13 PM
Here's a "Real News" interview with a Canadian Syrian Academic described as a member of the Syrian National Council.

She confirms that the Syrian opposition has remained opposed to armed intervention, but is of the view that the population, having taken losses of at least 10,000, 700 of whom were children, is at its limits. But she says that military action actually drives the revolution back. They are between a rock and a hard place, and are doing very well in trying to find their way through, to maintain the revolution while not being forced into civil war and accepting external takeover of their movement.

She also states the immediate objective as being to get the Assads to step down, and then negotiate with the regime (which she describes as a military mafia) for reform.

Jay asked, how can they stop external players - the US, the Saudis, and Qataris, pusing agendas and picking their own winners by arming them.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=8088



Bio
Afra Jalabi is Syrian-Canadian who is a member of the Syrian National Council. She is also a member of the editorial board of the Journal of Law and Religion at Hamline University, and worked as columnist in the Arab Press for last 12 years.



JAY: The point is, going forward, what's in the interest and well-being of the Syrian people? And if you wind up with—as you said right at the beginning of the interview, of armed sections of the population in a widespread civil war, I don't see how that advances the interests or the well-being of the Syrian people. And, number two, I think—do you not acknowledge Assad still maintains a significant amount of support in Syria? There's a civil war going on in Syria.
JALABI: This is why—yeah. This is why explain to the Syrian people who are actually favoring the armed option that many of us who keep telling them that this is not a viable option, because, first of all, you don't have the—I mean, you have the Syrian regime army that is armed to the teeth, and it has been waiting for a moment like this for the last 42 years. So, basically, the best option would be—but I'm afraid that perhaps we are beyond that point, but it would be wonderful if people regained their own momentum and the power they had at the beginning of this revolution and go back to the nonviolent means of resistance. And the difficulty is that when you have a situation when you have a population that's under attack, it becomes very hard for them to think rationally and strategically.

My own suggestion is that you had cities, actually, where they were demonstrating and going out, and without the protection of the Free Syrian Army. And sometimes, in fact, when the army came into these towns and the snipers got on the buildings, the people actually withdrew, they slowed down, and they waited until the army left town, and then they would go back. And so people sometimes were saying, no, look at other towns where the Free Syrian Army is protecting the people and they can continue protesting and the revolution hasn't died, and these other towns have withdrawn from the revolution, which is not true. They never withdrew from the revolution. What was happening: they were networking further, they were creating flyers, newspapers, local newspapers, and they were coming up with strategies.
So it's—I think it's extremely important for the people to realize that they need to rely on their own civic disobedience and on strategies, on civil strategies of disobedience to topple this regime. And then the way the international community will come to help them would be a cherry on the pie. It would be a different kind of intervention. It would not be an intervention, as you rightly pointed out, where other powers will be driving the agenda of the Syrians.
But this is why we need to support these groups inside Syria whose voice is being drowned now by the armed options or by the militarization options, because people are saying this: we are dying and nobody is hearing us out. What you want us to do? We need to defend ourselves. When—and when they defend themselves, the situation becomes exasperating. So it has become a vicious cycle of defense and attack.
And, in fact, the areas where the Free Syrian Army went and in fact were devastated and were shelled, yes, for a few days the Syrian people in those towns or cities, they experienced security because the security forces and the thugs no longer abuse them and they no longer walk on their buildings, or, you know, snipers no longer arrive in these towns.

But what happens? Something worse. The army arrives and it starts shelling residential areas, as we saw in Baba Amr. So it's extremely frustrating for people like me to make people understand that the armed option is not going to work. In fact, it's giving the Syrian regime itself momentum, because that's where its power lies, in violence, in terror, in arms, and our power lies in our morality and in our ethics and in our ability to dismantle the sources of power of this regime. But, I mean, you know, you know what's happening on the ground. When you have people dying, it's very hard to organize and to regroup in moments of despair.

C. Flower
13-04-2012, 11:52 PM
The US has formally announced it will give communications and other aid to the Syrian opposition.

It seems probable that cash will be poured in and will buy up the worst elements. A step closer too to US / Iranian conflict.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/obama-announces-aid-deal-for-syria-547452.html

Count Bobulescu
14-04-2012, 03:46 AM
The US has formally announced it will give communications and other aid to the Syrian opposition.

It seems probable that cash will be poured in and will buy up the worst elements. A step closer too to US / Iranian conflict.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/obama-announces-aid-deal-for-syria-547452.html
CF, this post is yet another example of your constant and often unwarranted anti US editorializing.

The Breaking News report which you cited says the following which you omit, (underlined), and simply choose to characterize it as other

The US, which has ruled out arming rebel forces, will send communication and medical equipment to non-violent activists. That doesnt fit your world view so you editorialize that:
It seems probable that cash will be poured in and will buy up the worst elements. There is ZERO basis for that statement in the report you cited. Sending equipment does not equal cash.

So, if you think it reasonable to conclude that the non-violent users of medical equipment are the worst elements, I think it reasonable to conclude that you believe that the violent users of weapons are the best elements. And if so, that you support violence, and if so, that you support indiscriminate violence, and if so, that you support terrorism, and if so, that you should be locked up. Its a slippery slope.

C. Flower
14-04-2012, 12:54 PM
CF, this post is yet another example of your constant and often unwarranted anti US editorializing.

The Breaking News report which you cited says the following which you omit, (underlined), and simply choose to characterize it as “other”
That doesn’t fit your world view so you editorialize that: . There is ZERO basis for that statement in the report you cited. Sending equipment does not equal cash.

So, if you think it reasonable to conclude that the non-violent users of medical equipment are the “worst elements”, I think it reasonable to conclude that you believe that the violent users of weapons are the “best elements”. And if so, that you support violence, and if so, that you support indiscriminate violence, and if so, that you support terrorism, and if so, that you should be locked up. It’s a slippery slope.

It is. Shouldn't you get off it ?

The US foreign policy is to promote US economic and geopolitical interests.
What is surprising about that? Do you think that the US is not already funding groups and individuals in Syria considered friendly to US interests?

I am quite sure that the US will not be funding and supporting leftists in Syria, unless in a way intended to do damage.

I base my views on the history of US interventions globally, and in the Middle East. They have trashed Iraq, and supported Israel which has trashed Palestine. They back every rotten military dictatorship going. They use terror attacks to destablise and divide. I am sure you have read Hersh's latest reports about the training of the MEK in the US ?

Am I now expected to believe their intervention is Syria will be entirely benign and humane ?

Count Bobulescu
14-04-2012, 04:12 PM
Oops! I can’t take seriously anyone who would so distort a simple news report. If the report were complicated, had a lot of nuance, I could understand differing interpretations but it’s not. People are entitled to their own opinions but not facts. The US has said it plans to send medical equipment to non-violent activists, and before anything has occurred you have in essence said, that’s a lie. There’s really no debating with that mindset.


It is. Shouldn't you get off it ?
Is that a not so oblique warning that if I persist in voicing my opinion I’ll be banned?



The US foreign policy is to promote US economic and geopolitical interests.Duh! That’s the foreign policy of every country.



What is surprising about that?Nothing!
Do you think that the US is not already funding groups and individuals in Syria considered friendly to US interests? Don’t know, but given that Hillary has said Assad must go, it’s certainly possible, maybe probable, but by no means certain at this point.




I am quite sure that the US will not be funding and supporting leftists in Syria, unless in a way intended to do damage.
That statement simply demonstrates your closed mind attitude, you choose to see only negative, and apparently would deprive the suffering people the benefit of medical equipment, for the sake of ideological purity.



I base my views on the history of US interventions globally, and in the Middle East. They have trashed Iraq, and supported Israel which has trashed Palestine. They back every rotten military dictatorship going. They use terror attacks to destablise and divide. I am sure you have read Hersh's latest reports about the training of the MEK in the US ?
I assume you mean Hersh’s New Yorker blogpost of April 6, 2012, titled Our Men in Iran. I have read it. In it Hersh notes that MEK training began and ended under Bush. So it’s not really relevant to medical supplies to Syria today. Much as I admire Hersh, I’m beginning to wonder if he is a spent force. He has only had one piece in the magazine since Nov 2010, and has now taken to complaining that other reporters are not giving it/him the attention it deserves

Am I now expected to believe their intervention is Syria will be entirely benign and humane ?Loaded question, depends entirely on how you define benign and humane.

Griska
14-04-2012, 06:57 PM
Seymour Hersh, a spent force?
Is that an off topic rumination or would that just be convenient?

Incidentally, why are the protesters in Bahrain not receiving attention and support from America, do you think?
That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Count Bobulescu
14-04-2012, 08:17 PM
When I hit the quote button on Griska's post, CF's earlier post appears, so I'll do it this way.

Wasnt intended to be an off-topic rumination, CF introduced him to the thread and specifically asked if I had read the piece. How exactly would you like me to answer that? Wasnt intended to be convenient put down either. I noted that I much admire him, that his output has severely diminished of late, and that he is complaining that other journalists are not paying him the attention he feels he deserves/used to get. He is 75 after all.

I suspect the truth of the matter is this: He wrote a little about an issue that occurred in 2005-2007, and the world has moved on to more pressing issues and he now looks like being a day late and a dollar short. He has also come in for legitimate criticism for his widespread use of anonymous sources.

This New Yorker bio would suggest he is easing out, willingly or otherwise.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/seymour_m_hersh/search?contributorName=seymour%20m%20hersh

(http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/seymour_m_hersh/search?contributorName=seymour%20m%20hersh)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh

Seymour (Sy) Myron Hersh (born April 8, 1937) is an American Pulitzer Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulitzer_Prize)-winning investigative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_journalism) journalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalist) and author based in Washington, D.C. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.) He is a regular contributor to The New Yorker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Yorker) magazine on military and security matters. He has also won two National Magazine Awards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Magazine_Awards) and is a "five-time Polk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Polk_Awards) winner and recipient of the 2004 George Orwell Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell_Award)."[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#cite_note-4)
5 Criticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Criticism)


5.1 Kennedy research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Kennedy_research)
5.2 Use of anonymous sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Use_of_anonymous_sources)
5.3 Speeches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Speeches)
5.4 Link between the US government and Fatah al-Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Link_between_the_US_government_and_F atah_al-Islam)
5.5 Morarji Desai Libel Suit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh#Morarji_Desai_Libel_Suit)

C. Flower
26-04-2012, 12:18 PM
There are reports and pictures coming from Syria showing a demolished building in which about 70 people have died, including a large number of women and children.

Government sources are saying that it was an opposition bomb factory accident, the opposition has said that the building was hit by a missile of some kind, possibly a SCUD.

There video circulating on the internet that appears to show Syrian forces burying alive a man who was getting news video and reports of what is happening out onto the internet.

There have also been claims in the last few days that people who spoke to UN monitors have been killed by Syrian forces.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17851122

On the first day of the cease fire, thousands of people across Syria attempted to demonstrate and were fired at. The opposition seems stronger than ever in terms of attitude and determination, but physically is being stopped.

France has been talking about military intervention. If the NATO powers involve themselves, it would be seen as a step towards war with Iran, and would be divisive amongst the population of the region, along sectarian lines.

Kev Bar
30-04-2012, 09:36 PM
A bleak but relevant assessment of the unfolding dynamic in Syria and how warfare can erode all rationale.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/2012429133733470159.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

C. Flower
30-04-2012, 10:35 PM
A bleak but relevant assessment of the unfolding dynamic in Syria and how warfare can erode all rationale.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/2012429133733470159.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

The first hour that there was a supposed ceasefire, thousands of people came out all over Syria to demonstrate against Assad's regime. People have been through hell, but the spirit still seems to be there.

A government that wages war on its own people deserves a bad end.

It's a moody piece of writing, but actually doesn't explain anything.

Kev Bar
30-04-2012, 10:38 PM
It's main point is a pertinent one.
And that is that sometimes warfare can take on a dynamic of its own.
Especially so when there is no clear prospect of a decisive victory.

C. Flower
15-05-2012, 02:39 PM
It's main point is a pertinent one.
And that is that sometimes warfare can take on a dynamic of its own.
Especially so when there is no clear prospect of a decisive victory.

This is a long and gruelling conflict, and it's only through looking at it in its regional context that it continues to make sense.

There have been many reports of Libyan arms and men heading in to Syria. And for the last few days fighting has broken out in the Lebanon.

http://bostonglobe.com/news/world/2012/05/14/syrian-unrest-spills-into-lebanon-for-third-day/452LhvYDMl6IF6Q6827pFP/story.html

Every imperial, sectarian and class interest globally is piling in, to keep its finger in the pie/ tip the balance /try to maintain the balance or whatever they are having. In the meantime, masses of ordinary Syrians want equality, an end to dictatorship, and the opportunity to make a decent living. Many have given their lives for that and no sign of it stopping.

C. Flower
26-05-2012, 11:37 PM
Tens of thousands of people protested across Syria today.

The UN says its observers saw more than 90 people dead, a number of them being children under 10 years of age.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/26/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html

C. Flower
26-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Tens of thousands of people protested across Syria today.

The UN says its observers saw more than 90 people dead, a number of them being children under 10 years of age.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/26/world/meast/syria-unrest/index.html

Just read an update to that report that says militia entered part of Homs and killed whole families, after the army's shelling stopped. 32 children dead.


More than 92 people, including 32 children younger than 10, were killed Friday by artillery and tank shells in the Syrian village of Houla, a spokesman for the joint special envoy to Syria said Saturday.

United Nations observers went to Houla and viewed the bodies Saturday, a day after opposition activists reported a massacre there at the hands of the Syrian regime. The activists said entire families were killed.

C. Flower
27-05-2012, 10:05 AM
Just heard on RTE radio news "These children were not stabbed, they were butchered."

I have not succeeded in finding any good political and economic assessment of the Assad regime, but it reeks of fascism.

If this particular incident is used as a "causus belli" / excuse for war, then a closer look would need to be taken at who were the perpetrators, described as "militia."

Late last week, these videos were circulated by twitter, showing Syrians spelling out the words "We are not terrorists" and "We want freedom" - also video of mass protests and demonstrators attacked.

More going on this morning, according to RTE.

I find it hard to know how to express my admiration for the people in Syria who have got up again day after day, after the most ghastly losses, and gone at it again, to express their determination to get their basic rights.

The so-called left who support Assad need to wake up.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/05/syrian-protesters-spell-out-we-are-not-terrorists-video.html

Count Bobulescu
27-05-2012, 08:09 PM
Looks like this plan is getting dusted off and updated again.


President Obama is considering a new plan to push embattled Syrian President Bashar Assad from power, as violence in the country escalates.
The proposed agreement would force Assad to relinquish power but leave in place elements of his regime, similar to an arrangement which lead to Yemen's transition from the rule of President Ali Abdullah Saleh last year, reported The New York Times on Sunday.

But the plan hinges on the cooperation of Russia, a strong defender of the Assad regime, which has blocked United Nations actions intended to raise pressure on the Syrian government.

Reports said Obama brought up the proposal with Russian Prime Minister Dimitry Medvedev at last weeks G8 meetings at Camp David.
The Russian government is believed to be open to the proposal which could allow for Assads peaceful exit, preserve stability in the country during the transition, and allow Russia to maintain close-ties with its Middle East ally.
Obama is expected to discuss the plan further with Russian President Vladimir Putin next month, the Times reports.

C. Flower
29-05-2012, 07:49 PM
Meanwhile, the majority of Syrian activists clearly still don't want a violent response.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-syria-peaceful-revolution-20120506,0,7734429.story?track=lat-email-latimesworldnews-May62012

"Stop the killing - we want to build a country for all Syrians"


http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fa5eb15/turbine/la-fg-syria-peaceful-0506-ap.jpg-20120505/600

C. Flower
29-05-2012, 08:15 PM
28 5 Yabroud Damascus أوغاريت يبرود ريف دمشق , تشيع الشهيد م*مد طه بوجود المراقبين - YouTube

Posted today, apparently of a protest and funeral in Damascus

"The people want an end to the Assad Regime" and other slogans.

Count Bobulescu
29-05-2012, 09:41 PM
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/229719-joint-chiefs-dempsey-sees-mounting-pressure-on-syria-after-massacre

President Obamas top military adviser urged a diplomatic solution to the mounting violence in Syria, but said that the Pentagon was prepared to present military options to intervene if asked to do so.
The events in Syria over the weekend are just horrific. Atrocious, really. I expect that the international community, that pressure will mount, said Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview on Monday with CBS News.


Dempseys comments came after U.N. observers reported a massacre of around 100 people including children late last week, by forces allied with Syrian strongman Bashar Assad.

I think that diplomatic pressure should always precede any discussions about military options. And that is my job by the way, is options, not policy. So we will be prepared to provide options if asked to do so, Dempsey said.
He similarly told Fox News on Monday that military intervention isnt off the table. There is always a military option, he said, according to Fox, but signaled caution.

You'll always find military leaders to be somewhat cautious about the use of force, because we're never entirely sure what comes out on the other side, he said, according to Fox. But that said, it may come to a point with Syria because of the atrocities.

C. Flower
29-05-2012, 09:46 PM
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/229719-joint-chiefs-dempsey-sees-mounting-pressure-on-syria-after-massacre

President Obamas top military adviser urged a diplomatic solution to the mounting violence in Syria, but said that the Pentagon was prepared to present military options to intervene if asked to do so.
The events in Syria over the weekend are just horrific. Atrocious, really. I expect that the international community, that pressure will mount, said Gen. Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview on Monday with CBS News.


Dempseys comments came after U.N. observers reported a massacre of around 100 people including children late last week, by forces allied with Syrian strongman Bashar Assad.

I think that diplomatic pressure should always precede any discussions about military options. And that is my job by the way, is options, not policy. So we will be prepared to provide options if asked to do so, Dempsey said.
He similarly told Fox News on Monday that military intervention isnt off the table. There is always a military option, he said, according to Fox, but signaled caution.

You'll always find military leaders to be somewhat cautious about the use of force, because we're never entirely sure what comes out on the other side, he said, according to Fox. But that said, it may come to a point with Syria because of the atrocities.

Certainly if the regime threatens to fall to the protestors there will be a sudden eagerness to intervene.

Count Bobulescu
29-05-2012, 09:55 PM
Certainly if the regime threatens to fall to the protestors there will be a sudden eagerness to intervene. It sure isn't looking that way at the moment.

fluffybiscuits
30-05-2012, 03:59 PM
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1202104--canada-to-immediately-expel-all-remaining-syrian-diplomats

Host of countries kicking out Syrian diplomats. Britian, Canada, US among the big few ...

Holly
30-05-2012, 06:39 PM
Although the rebel held area of Houla was attacked this week by armed Shabiha, the pro-government militia, the Russians are claiming that both sides are equally responsible for violence. The Russians and Red China are preventing the United Nations from making a resolution to militarily protect civilians from government forces and Alawite sympathizers. This massacre caused the deaths of 108 civilians including 34 children. Kofi Annan, belatedly waking up to the bloodshed, has referred to this act as "the tipping point" but the Russians and Chinese, having been fooled by NATO's phony neutrality in Libya, are not about to permit UN action.

C. Flower
31-05-2012, 11:54 PM
A rap / song from a Palestinian on Houla. WARNING - sad images of dead children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn1ar0h1HNI&feature=youtu.be&skipcontrinter=1

Sam Lord
01-06-2012, 12:38 AM
Meanwhile, the majority of Syrian activists clearly still don't want a violent response.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-syria-peaceful-revolution-20120506,0,7734429.story?track=lat-email-latimesworldnews-May62012

"Stop the killing - we want to build a country for all Syrians"


http://www.trbimg.com/img-4fa5eb15/turbine/la-fg-syria-peaceful-0506-ap.jpg-20120505/600

Have they forgotten how the violence started? Have they forgotten that Assad's father slaughtered up to 30,000 in Hama in 1982 without blinking an eye.

Anyone advocating that the Syrian people put aside whatever arms they have managed to acquire is either supportive of the regime or clearly nuts.

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 12:42 AM
Have they forgotten how the violence started? Have they forgotten that Assad's father slaughtered up to 30,000 in Hama in 1982 without blinking an eye.

Anyone advocating that the Syrian people put aside whatever arms they have managed to acquire is either supportive of the regime or clearly nuts.

If you read the article that is not what they say. They are in favour of using arms to protect people under attack.

Sam Lord
01-06-2012, 12:45 AM
If you read the article that is not what they say. They are in favour of using arms to protect people under attack.

Is that not a violent response?

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 12:46 AM
Is that not a violent response?

Self defence is no offence.

Sam Lord
01-06-2012, 12:50 AM
Self defence is no offence.

You posted that the majority of Syrian activists did not want a "violent response". Is shooting at people not violence ... even if done in defence?

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 12:55 AM
You posted that the majority of Syrian activists did not want a "violent response". Is shooting at people not violence ... even if done in defence?

Yes, I should have been clearer. The people the article is about don't want intervention or to start a war, but they do agree with army defections and defence of people under attack.

I certainly would support that approach myself.

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 03:59 PM
&#x202b;*„ب - ا„ز*ف باتجا‡ سا*ة سعدا„„‡ راااائعة 1-6-2012.mp4&#x202c;&lrm; - YouTube

Massive march in Aleppo today: high energy. Guys are risking their lives posting these youtubes, and only a few people are watching. Listen to the sound!

Video posted by the General Council to lead the revolution in Aleppo | Press Office

Count Bobulescu
01-06-2012, 05:06 PM
There has been some reporting in the US that the Sunni-Shia and other old regional tribal rivalries that had been largely absent from the violence to date, are now emerging in the wake of Houla, and threaten to further complicate the picture with respect to funding the opposition.

Meanwhile Europe which had been calling for intervention appears to have backed off in light of the Euro crisis, making it more likely that the US will be called upon.

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 05:20 PM
There has been some reporting in the US that the Sunni-Shia and other old regional tribal rivalries that had been largely absent from the violence to date, are now emerging in the wake of Houla, and threaten to further complicate the picture with respect to funding the opposition.

Meanwhile Europe which had been calling for intervention appears to have backed off in light of the Euro crisis, making it more likely that the US will be called upon.

I fully expect there will be attempts to stir up the sectarianism that has largely been absent, and the attack at Houla, and the very strong focus on it, may only be the beginning of it.

8,000 + people have been killed, including many children, in the last year.

Who is going to "call on" the US, to do what ?

Count Bobulescu
01-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Who is going to "call on" the US, to do what ?
Those who wish to see Assad gone, but can't or won't do anything. As noted above the US military is signalling to the US public that the issue is on the radar. no more than that at this stage.

C. Flower
01-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Those who wish to see Assad gone, but can't or won't do anything. As noted above the US military is signalling to the US public that the issue is on the radar. no more than that at this stage.

Most of those who are doing something don't want an intervention.

Bad though Syria is, it is not yet post-intervention Iraq.

Count Bobulescu
01-06-2012, 06:20 PM
Bad though Syria is, it is not yet post-intervention Iraq.Agreed, but the trend line doesn't look good.

Sam Lord
01-06-2012, 07:42 PM
There has been some reporting in the US that the Sunni-Shia and other old regional tribal rivalries that had been largely absent from the violence to date, are now emerging in the wake of Houla, and threaten to further complicate the picture with respect to funding the opposition.


Not sure why anyone would think these tensions have not been there all along. Assad's (the father) coup of 1970 very much brought the Alawis (a branch of Shia) to power in Syria and they have commanded the leading positions in the Baath Party, State, and army for the last 40 years ... to my knowledge.

Count Bobulescu
01-06-2012, 08:05 PM
Not sure why anyone would think these tensions have not been there all along. Assad's (the father) coup of 1970 very much brought the Alawis (a branch of Shia) to power in Syria and they have commanded the leading positions in the Baath Party, State, and army for the last 40 years ... to my knowledge.
As I understood what I read and heard, the latent tensions against Assad and the Alawites outside Syria have now become more overt and are not confined to just Sunni-Shia rivalry. There apparently are other old tribal rivalries of perhaps hundreds of years emerging for a dust-off as well. It sounds like it is about to get more complicated.

C. Flower
02-06-2012, 12:34 AM
As I understood what I read and heard, the latent tensions against Assad and the Alawites outside Syria have now become more overt and are not confined to just Sunni-Shia rivalry. There apparently are other old tribal rivalries of perhaps hundreds of years emerging for a dust-off as well. It sounds like it is about to get more complicated.

I'm sure it will, surprise surprise. For a full year, a pro democracy uprising has been running against the Assad regime without sectarian killings, and suddenly we get two apparently sectarian massacres in three days.

The killings of the 13 factory workers has the flavour about it of massacres that took place in the North of Ireland with the blessing and/or assistance of the British State.

RTE reported this evening that people in Syria are saying these killings are being carried out by the Assad regime, to provoke sectarianism.

fluffybiscuits
05-06-2012, 12:06 AM
I'm sure it will, surprise surprise. For a full year, a pro democracy uprising has been running against the Assad regime without sectarian killings, and suddenly we get two apparently sectarian massacres in three days.

The killings of the 13 factory workers has the flavour about it of massacres that took place in the North of Ireland with the blessing and/or assistance of the British State.

RTE reported this evening that people in Syria are saying these killings are being carried out by the Assad regime, to provoke sectarianism.


There is no doubt about it he is angling for some angle from which he can take action and seek to justify it. There was a tv address from Assad, he made fun of calls for democracy and vehemently denies it was government death squads doing the killing...

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120603/NEWS/120609929/-1/SITEMAP

C. Flower
07-06-2012, 10:47 PM
UN webcast - Ban ki Moon speaking now about the imminence of civil war and non compliance of the regime with the 6 point plan.

http://webtv.un.org/watch/24-hour-live-and-pre-recorded-programming/1571671822001

C. Flower
09-06-2012, 11:05 AM
http://bambuser.com/v/2726290

This stream, which was open in a tab in the background just kicked off with the sound of repeated shelling, and returning fire, and a man's voice can be heard commenting and quietly repeating "Allah 0'Akhbar." A cockerel can be heard crowing in the background and the weather looks beautiful. A recording from yesterday. It seems to be Daraa, from where there is a report of another civilian massacre.

The people of Daraa were among the first to come out en masse to protest against the Assad regime, over a year ago.

C. Flower
09-06-2012, 05:42 PM
Recording of a video stream from a few hours ago, of the funeral of 14 civilians killed by shelling earlier today.

http://bambuser.com/v/2727999

Big crowd, spirit completely militant.

C. Flower
09-06-2012, 06:51 PM
A blogger has gathered together all the first hand reports of the Qubair massacre.

No bodies were left there - all apparently taken away in military vehicles.

http://brown-moses.blogspot.ie/2012/06/syria-qubair-massacre-evidence-gathered.html

Count Bobulescu
12-06-2012, 08:17 PM
Russia to send Syria attack helicopters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-russia-is-sending-syria-attack-helicopters/2012/06/12/gJQARMRqXV_story.html?hpid=z1


The Obama administration said Tuesday that Russia is sending attack helicopters to Syrian President Bashar Assads regime and is warning about a dramatic escalation in the Arab countrys 15-month conflict.
Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the delivery represents the latest information. She said the U.S. is concerned as the helicopters will escalate the conflict quite dramatically.

C. Flower
12-06-2012, 10:40 PM
Russia to send Syria attack helicopters.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-russia-is-sending-syria-attack-helicopters/2012/06/12/gJQARMRqXV_story.html?hpid=z1

The US Government also said today it considers that there is a civil war going on in Syria.

There were coincidentally twitter reports of heavy exchanges of gunfire.

C. Flower
13-06-2012, 05:50 PM
The unmistakeable sight and sound of Syrian anti-Assad protestors on live stream, in Daraa, where it started, clapping, and dancing, with some sounds of gunfire earlier not deterring them.

An amazing sound!

http://bambuser.com/v/2743342

C. Flower
13-06-2012, 05:55 PM
The unmistakeable sight and sound of Syrian anti-Assad protestors on live stream, in Daraa, where it started, clapping, and dancing, with some sounds of gunfire earlier not deterring them.

An amazing sound!

http://bambuser.com/v/2743342

It sounds like one hell of a party :)

RTE earlier was saying that large parts of many towns are now in the hands of the protestors, and that the army has fallen back and is shelling from a distance.

C. Flower
14-06-2012, 11:21 AM
France is now pressurising for a UN resolution to allow force and says that a "no fly zone" is also being considered.

Hollande is certainly not cut from different cloth, in terms of international politics, to Sarkozy.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0613/breaking1.html

Count Bobulescu
14-06-2012, 08:17 PM
Cross posting with the In Focus Thread.

Fifteen months after the start of the uprising in Syria, several experts and at least one top U.N. official are now characterizing the escalating conflict as a Civil War. A wide range of anti-government insurgencies continue to battle official and unofficial Syrian government troops across the country. President Bashar al-Assad's forces have reportedly carried out a series of horrific civilian massacres, involving attack helicopters, shelling, and brutal incursions into rebel neighborhoods. The Syrian government continues to block foreign journalists, but a number of photographs and reports have made their way out of the country. [39 photos]

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/06/syrias-civil-war/100319/

C. Flower
14-06-2012, 08:36 PM
Cross posting with the In Focus Thread.

Fifteen months after the start of the uprising in Syria, several experts and at least one top U.N. official are now characterizing the escalating conflict as a Civil War. A wide range of anti-government insurgencies continue to battle official and unofficial Syrian government troops across the country. President Bashar al-Assad's forces have reportedly carried out a series of horrific civilian massacres, involving attack helicopters, shelling, and brutal incursions into rebel neighborhoods. The Syrian government continues to block foreign journalists, but a number of photographs and reports have made their way out of the country. [39 photos]

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/06/syrias-civil-war/100319/

With respect to the Atlantic, there have been thousands of photographs, reports and live stream links from Syria.

Some of them are posted on the threads here, but they are only a few of what is readily available. I'm fairly weary of the allusions to "not verified" reports by people in Syria. Many professional journalists are spooking for their government and spin events very professionally to distort to an agenda.
Others are truly professional and brilliant, but they still in a situation like Syria can only give glimpses.

Of the "non-professional" material, some of it is also of course sponsored and agenda driven. Some of the non-professional material, no more than the BBC with its misused images during the Libya conflict, is possibly deliberately misleading.

But in watching scores of youtubes and live streams over many months, showing noisy and enthusiastic protests (love this jumping/dancing thing they do), mass funerals, the dying and dead, from men to tiny babies, towns and villages being shelled and being raided by military and thugs, Syrian soldiers torturing people and laughing at the dead, and people coming out again the next day and protesting again, under fire, people spelling out non-sectarian and anti sectarian messages to be read from the air, using limited english to try to communicate that they want freedom and equality, posters with messages against terrorism, there are hundreds of items out there on the net that give a bit of an impression of what is really going on.

Count Bobulescu
14-06-2012, 09:55 PM
With respect to the Atlantic, there have been thousands of photographs, reports and live stream links from Syria.

Some of them are posted on the threads here, but they are only a few of what is readily available. I'm fairly weary of the allusions to "not verified" reports by people in Syria. Many professional journalists are spooking for their government and spin events very professionally to distort to an agenda.
Others are truly professional and brilliant, but they still in a situation like Syria can only give glimpses.

Of the "non-professional" material, some of it is also of course sponsored and agenda driven. Some of the non-professional material, no more than the BBC with its misused images during the Libya conflict, is possibly deliberately misleading.

But in watching scores of youtubes and live streams over many months, showing noisy and enthusiastic protests (love this jumping/dancing thing they do), mass funerals, the dying and dead, from men to tiny babies, towns and villages being shelled and being raided by military and thugs, Syrian soldiers torturing people and laughing at the dead, and people coming out again the next day and protesting again, under fire, people spelling out non-sectarian and anti sectarian messages to be read from the air, using limited english to try to communicate that they want freedom and equality, posters with messages against terrorism, there are hundreds of items out there on the net that give a bit of an impression of what is really going on.
Thats one mouthful of a last sentence.:)
With respect to the Atlantic, I noted in the OP of the In Focus thread that the purpose of using Atlantic material was because of the breadth and quality of the photography. There are lots of sites with more photos, but few with better. I dont know what the policy of the Atlantic is, but I suspect they only use photos that meet a certain professional & technical standard, and that excludes all the Iphone and other non-professional stuff etc. The goal with In Focus is quality photography rather than political statement.

On the matter of attribution, its a commonplace for media outlets when using material, the provenance of which they are unsure of, to note that fact. BBC, CNN etc. do it all the time.

C. Flower
14-06-2012, 10:35 PM
Thats one mouthful of a last sentence.:)
With respect to the Atlantic, I noted in the OP of the In Focus thread that the purpose of using Atlantic material was because of the breadth and quality of the photography. There are lots of sites with more photos, but few with better. I dont know what the policy of the Atlantic is, but I suspect they only use photos that meet a certain professional & technical standard, and that excludes all the Iphone and other non-professional stuff etc. The goal with In Focus is quality photography rather than political statement.

On the matter of attribution, its a commonplace for media outlets when using material, the provenance of which they are unsure of, to note that fact. BBC, CNN etc. do it all the time.

My response was to the suggestion that the material available was limited in quantity because of difficulties for foreign journalists. I pointed out this is not correct - there is a mass of material.

The Atlantic chooses to select a high proportion of photographs of bearded young men with guns. I've nothing against these photographs, but until very recently, their subjects have been a rare commodity, and overwhelmingly, the Syrian movement has been a peaceful movement of masses of people.

Perhaps this is random, but it certainly looks like an agenda.

The non-agency photographs are all captioned - "purports to show" - wording I've not come across before in news journalism. If the Atlantic has any reason to think that the photos are fakes, they should not be using them.

Count Bobulescu
15-06-2012, 04:10 AM
My response was to the suggestion that the material available was limited in quantity because of difficulties for foreign journalists. I pointed out this is not correct - there is a mass of material.

The Atlantic chooses to select a high proportion of photographs of bearded young men with guns. I've nothing against these photographs, but until very recently, their subjects have been a rare commodity, and overwhelmingly, the Syrian movement has been a peaceful movement of masses of people.

Perhaps this is random, but it certainly looks like an agenda.

The non-agency photographs are all captioned - "purports to show" - wording I've not come across before in news journalism. If the Atlantic has any reason to think that the photos are fakes, they should not be using them.
I read the introduction simply as a commentary on the difficulty of reporting, and getting quality images out. The Atlantic had lots of photos from Egypt and Libya where no such restrictions were in place. Most western news outlets have been trying to smuggle people in and out with mixed success. Marie Colvin and a French photojournalist were killed there a few months back.

I hadnt noticed a particular focus on young bearded men with guns, so I went back and counted. I make it 7 photos out of 39 at best. Thats hardly either as you suggest a high proportion or excessive in a civil war where the fighting is mostly done by young bearded men on both sides.

As to an agenda, I think you are seeing conspiracy demons where none exist. What agenda do you think is being pursued?

All the photos are attributed to different professional news sources including the one amateur video still that was distributed by the AP, and the quality of that one is far below all the others, which I think underlines the point made in the introduction.

It is also the only photo that uses the term purports to show which I think is entirely appropriate given the image and the context.

C. Flower
15-06-2012, 10:38 AM
I just counted myself - 11 images of the "Free Syrian Army" - a tendentious description as there is no such unified organised national force. Big *journalism fail* or else agenda.

Only 4 or 5 images of the mass peaceful demonstrations that are still overwhelmingly the main defining feature of the Syrian opposition movement.

At this stage, things will hopefully be resolved by a mix of continued mass, non-sectarian, demonstration and organisation, with armed defence and consolidation. But its seems that at the moment some towns have been emptied by Syrian army onslaught and there is a lot of urban territory from which the army has backed off.

The whole thing is national too, now, with the capital becoming as much involved as the other towns.

The Atlantic portrays a particular view of events, by selection of photographs. I have no idea whether or not it shapes the content consciously, or unconsciously, by this selection. Every media outlet does this, one way or another.

I remain of the view that the best way of keeping up with what is going on in Syria is by looking at a large quantity of material, primarily of local, amateur origin. It is much harder to create bias or fakery when there are quantities of material coming from multiple sources.


I read the introduction simply as a commentary on the difficulty of reporting, and getting quality images out. The Atlantic had lots of photos from Egypt and Libya where no such restrictions were in place. Most western news outlets have been trying to smuggle people in and out with mixed success. Marie Colvin and a French photojournalist were killed there a few months back.

I hadn’t noticed a particular focus on young bearded men with guns, so I went back and counted. I make it 7 photos out of 39 at best. That’s hardly either as you suggest a “high proportion” or excessive in a civil war where the fighting is mostly done by young bearded men on both sides.

As to an agenda, I think you are seeing conspiracy demons where none exist. What agenda do you think is being pursued?

All the photos are attributed to different professional news sources including the one amateur video still that was distributed by the AP, and the quality of that one is far below all the others, which I think underlines the point made in the introduction.

It is also the only photo that uses the term “purports to show” which I think is entirely appropriate given the image and the context.

Count Bobulescu
15-06-2012, 01:58 PM
I just counted myself - 11 images of the "Free Syrian Army" - a tendentious description as there is no such unified organised national force. Big *journalism fail* or else agenda.

Only 4 or 5 images of the mass peaceful demonstrations that are still overwhelmingly the main defining feature of the Syrian opposition movement.

At this stage, things will hopefully be resolved by a mix of continued mass, non-sectarian, demonstration and organisation, with armed defence and consolidation. But its seems that at the moment some towns have been emptied by Syrian army onslaught and there is a lot of urban territory from which the army has backed off.

The whole thing is national too, now, with the capital becoming as much involved as the other towns.

The Atlantic portrays a particular view of events, by selection of photographs. I have no idea whether or not it shapes the content consciously, or unconsciously, by this selection. Every media outlet does this, one way or another.

I remain of the view that the best way of keeping up with what is going on in Syria is by looking at a large quantity of material, primarily of local, amateur origin. It is much harder to create bias or fakery when there are quantities of material coming from multiple sources.


You say Free Syrian Army is a tendentious description as there is no such unified organized national national force and use of the term is either a Journalism fail or agenda .

Jeez, what rock have you been hiding under for the last 15 months? Youre unbelievable.
A Google search on the term Free Syrian Army yields --ten million two hundred thousand-- results, the second of which is this extensive Wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army


The FSA operates throughout Syria, both in urban areas and in the countryside. Forces are active in the northwest (Idlib, Aleppo), the central region (Homs, Hama, and Rastan), the coast around Latakia, the south (Deraa and Houran), the east (Dayr al-Zawr, Abu Kamal), and the Damascus area. The largest concentration of these forces appears to be in the central region (Homs, Hama, and surrounding areas), with nine or more battalions active there.[25][26] The Free Syrian Army has stated that it does not have the resources to occupy and take control of territories, and instead relies primarily on hit and run attacks to prompt the Syrian army into withdrawing.[27] The head of the United Nations, Ban Ki-moon has said that the Free Syrian Army controlled significant parts of some cities.[28]Now that youve moved the goalposts for the photos from bearded young men with guns to Free Syrian Army its pointless debating the details of the photos with you. I have no idea how either of us could determine the affiliation of people in civilian clothing.

Im more interested in why you think the Atlantic is biased or pushing an agenda. When I posted the photos of the Montreal student protests the other day you described them as cool photos. Do you just label anyone or anything you disagree with as biased or agenda driven? And Im completely mystified by your use of the word fakery. Are you suggesting that some of the Atlantic photos may have been faked? If so, you should identify.

C. Flower
15-06-2012, 02:29 PM
The Atlantic uses the word "purported" in captioning "amateur" photographs - it is the Atlantic who thus suggest that they may, possibly, be fakes.
There have been one or two cases of misascribed non professional photos being published (wrong town, wrong date) in the professional media, these have been quickly corrected.
The Atlantic describes all photos of armed men as "Free Syrian Army" - this simply does not reflect the reality on the ground that, as well as the thousands that are fighting in the FSA there are many local armed defence militias.
The Atlantic describes all bearded armed men as FSA - so the goalposts haven't budged an inch.
No, I don't "just label anything I disagree with" as agenda driven. I am making the point that all selections of images and reports are agenda driven - whether consciously, or unconsciously.

Panetta's testimony on the Syrian resistance -

http://www.cfr.org/syria/panettas-testimony-syria-march-2012/p27605


It is not clear what constitutes the Syrian armed opposition – there has been no single unifying military alternative that can be recognized, appointed, or contacted. While the opposition is fighting back and military defections and desertions are on the rise, the Syrian regime continues to maintain a strong military;

Count Bobulescu
15-06-2012, 04:35 PM
The Atlantic uses the word "purported" in captioning "amateur" photographs - it is the Atlantic who thus suggest that they may, possibly, be fakes.
There have been one or two cases of misascribed non professional photos being published (wrong town, wrong date) in the professional media, these have been quickly corrected.
The Atlantic describes all photos of armed men as "Free Syrian Army" - this simply does not reflect the reality on the ground that, as well as the thousands that are fighting in the FSA there are many local armed defence militias.
The Atlantic describes all bearded armed men as FSA - so the goalposts haven't budged an inch.
No, I don't "just label anything I disagree with" as agenda driven. I am making the point that all selections of images and reports are agenda driven - whether consciously, or unconsciously.

Panetta's testimony on the Syrian resistance -

http://www.cfr.org/syria/panettas-testimony-syria-march-2012/p27605


I think I see where the problem is now. You seem to believe the word purport is automatically a synonym for fake. Not so, it is more often used to convey the meaning of claim when used in the present tense and fake when used in the past tense. It was used in the present tense by the Atlantic. You cannot conflate purport and fake, they have different meanings.


purport
   [v. per-pawrt, -pohrt, pur-pawrt, -pohrt; n. pur-pawrt, -pohrt] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to present, especially deliberately, the appearance of being; profess or claim, often falsely: a document purporting to be official.
2.
to convey to the mind as the meaning or thing intended; express or imply.

As to Panetta, he was simply recognizing what is apparently true on the ground, that opposition to Assad is not just confined to the FSA even though they may be the biggest of the groups. The same point was made by the Atlantic in their introduction to the gallery.

C. Flower
16-06-2012, 07:08 PM
What I pointed out that AP reports show stuff, and amateur/anonymous material "purportedly" shows stuff, in Atlantic-ese.

These are purportedly scenes of people in Daraa, yesterday, rocking it against Assad.

http://bambuser.com/v/2750051

The Atlantic captioned every shot of an armed man as FSA. Or, I beg your pardon, "purportedly" FSA.

The UN has stopped its mission in Syria, reportedly due to a couple of incidents of staff cars being shot up.

I think that is a great shame, because people were able to take advantage of the presence of blue helmets to protest in greater safety.

Count Bobulescu
17-06-2012, 05:13 AM
What I pointed out that AP reports show stuff, and amateur/anonymous material "purportedly" shows stuff, in Atlantic-ese..And that as Ive said already is because the agency has used a photo taken by a citizen journalist that they cant verify the exact time place context, in the same way that they stand over the material supplied by their own people. Cmon, youve seen the BBC issue similar disclaimers many times. Its common practice.


The Atlantic captioned every shot of an armed man as FSA. Or, I beg your pardon, "purportedly" FSA
You are flat out wrong with this assertion. Photos 16, 19, 22, 27, and 28 all show bearded men with guns none of whom are described as FSA. They are all described variously as Syrian rebels, and the word purportedly or derivation is not used either.



See the 4th and the last grafs below


How to get the most out of In Focus

- Take advantage of the opportunity to see the photos at the largest possible size. The site is optimized for screen widths of 1,280 pixels or more - if your monitor and bandwidth can handle. Look for the "1024 or 1280" checkboxes at the top right of an entry page.

- Use keyboard shortcuts. When viewing an entry page, scrolling from image to image can be an inexact science - so use the "j" and "k" keys or the left and right arrow keys to move down or up within an entry.

- Take your time. These photographs are often meant to be lingered over, letting the details become apparent. Allow yourself to be immersed.

- Not every point of view/group/nationality will be represented in every entry. For instance, if I post an entry with 36 photos called "New Years around the World", and don't feature a photo from Hawaii - don't read anything into that. There are a thousand reasons why Hawaii might have been left out (no photos available to me, available photos weren't that great, available photos were good, but didn't make the final cut, etc.). Just because I left a photo out, please don't conclude that I have an anti-Hawaii bias.

FAQ

- Can I see the Exif data for the images?

Unfortunately, the images provided by the news agencies come to us with most of their Exif data stripped off, so there isn't any data to pass on.

- Can I use these images in my own work / Can I get higher resolutions?

These questions are best directed to the photo agencies we license the images from. Primarily AP, Reuters and AFP/Getty. They are the owners of the images, and have systems set up for licensing and purchase.

- iPad app, Android app?

Still working on these applications. Stay tuned.

- Hey these images aren't 1,024 pixels wide or 1,280 pixels wide, what's up?

The images are "optimized" for displays that go up to 1,024 pixels or 1,280 pixels. What this means is that you have to subtract a bit to account for browser borders, scrollbars, etc. If we made the images full-size, you'd end up with horizontal scrollbars, and nobody wants that.

- Will you feature my photograph?

I can't make any promises, but I do encourage you to contact me at [email protected] if you have images you'd like to share. Before sending email, keep in mind that the images should be of high quality, large size, owned by you, and free for us to post online. I'm very happy to provide links and full credit in the caption.

C. Flower
17-06-2012, 11:15 AM
.And that as I’ve said already is because the agency has used a photo taken by a citizen journalist that they can’t verify the exact time place context, in the same way that they stand over the material supplied by their own people. C’mon, you’ve seen the BBC issue similar disclaimers many times. It’s common practice.

You are flat out wrong with this assertion. Photos 16, 19, 22, 27, and 28 all show bearded men with guns none of whom are described as FSA. They are all described variously as Syrian rebels, and the word purportedly or derivation is not used either.

See the 4th and the last grafs below

Yes, you are right about the number of citations of the FSA. They may even be correct that all the subjects are FSA fighters. I stand over my view that the overall impression of the pictures is of all out military war, with the FSA on one side and Assad's forces on the other, with a much lesser component of unarmed protests. I think that is an imbalanced picture of events, and nothing to do with "not showing Hawaii."

Picture 10 is the only one that would raise any question marks about authenticity. In a movement characterised by adamantly and consistently peaceful and unarmed mass demonstrations, a woman in a veil with an AK47 stands out like a beacon (second woman with Koran behind her). It is a close up, with nothing in the image to specifically tie it to Syria. It is an AP image. If the photographer reads this, perhaps they would like to drop in and give us the context of the photo.

If you look at the photos of protests - and there are thousands of similar ones available - you will see that they are male only (for reason of extreme danger of being shot at) and unarmed.

Picture 10 may be authentic, but is is extraordinarily atypical of everything else I've seen from Syria.

The Syrians are wondering why they have been left on their own, with very little international support, to have their "Arab Spring" under an onslaught of military repression.

The lack of clear reportage of what kind of a movement it is may be part of the reason.

C. Flower
17-06-2012, 01:15 PM
Reports of US contingency plans for Syrian invasion.

Well of course they have one for every member of the audience.

But the US must be very wary of a possible unpredictable popular and bottom-up Syrian government.

http://rt.com/usa/news/pentagon-syria-us-forces-923/

riposte
17-06-2012, 01:39 PM
The FSA and their CIA overlords don't want the United Nations watching their dirty deeds to achieve regime-change ..... that's why they shoot up the UN monitors .....and that's why the UN monitors have abandoned the Syrian people ..... as they did in Rwanda and Sarajevo.

C. Flower
17-06-2012, 02:12 PM
The FSA and their CIA overlords don't want the United Nations watching their dirty deeds to achieve regime-change ..... that's why they shoot up the UN monitors .....and that's why the UN monitors have abandoned the Syrian people ..... as they did in Rwanda and Sarajevo.

Interesting discussion just now, on RTE. Fisk and others. Fisk let slip the remark that since Libya fell, Russia's only Mediterranean port is in Syria.

Geopolitics is the underbelly of so much that goes on.

Some of the other things said was that Assad may be looking at Eygypt and Algeria and think he can hold on, and that the big power consensus is to try to hold Syria together, with a "modified" regime, because of its geopolitical importance.

The last thing any of the panel considered is that the Syrian masses themselves might have any say in what happens.

The FSA is not a coherent force and very definitely includes both CIA sponsored elements and ordinary soldiers and people who have armed themselves and are acting in self defence.

riposte
17-06-2012, 02:40 PM
Interesting discussion just now, on RTE. Fisk and others. Fisk let slip the remark that since Libya fell, Russia's only Mediterranean port is in Syria.

Geopolitics is the underbelly of so much that goes on.

Some of the other things said was that Assad may be looking at Eygypt and Algeria and think he can hold on, and that the big power consensus is to try to hold Syria together, with a "modified" regime, because of its geopolitical importance.

The last thing any of the panel considered is that the Syrian masses themselves might have any say in what happens.

The FSA is not a coherent force and very definitely includes both CIA sponsored elements and ordinary soldiers and people who have armed themselves and are acting in self defence.

Cactus .... the bunch of thugs that took over Libya (with the help of that Evil Organisation, The United Nations) portrayed themselves as "people who armed themselves to act in self defence."

We don't hear anything about civil rights or people being tortured in Libya any more .... because it never was about the safety of the Libyan people ...... it was about Libyan oil and stealing their 15 Billion in Gold reserves.

Libya was the only country in the world without foreign debt. Now it is a refuse tip.

C. Flower
17-06-2012, 02:45 PM
Cactus .... the bunch of thugs that took over Libya (with the help of that Evil Organisation, The United Nations) portrayed themselves as "people who armed themselves to act in self defence."

We don't hear anything about civil rights or people being tortured in Libya any more .... because it never was about the safety of the Libyan people ...... it was about Libyan oil and stealing their 15 Billion in Gold reserves.

Libya was the only country in the world without foreign debt. Now it is a refuse tip.

The situation in Libya was very different. I think it may well be the case that closing off ports there to Russia may have come into the equation of that very quick intervention by the US and allies.

riposte
18-06-2012, 12:40 AM
The situation in Libya was very different. I think it may well be the case that closing off ports there to Russia may have come into the equation of that very quick intervention by the US and allies.

Funny then that Russia endorsed the UN action against Libya ..... serves Gaddafi right .... turned his back on the Russians and threw his lot in with Blair and Bush.... doing a few nixers for them ...... torturing their prisoners.

C. Flower
18-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Funny then that Russia endorsed the UN action against Libya ..... serves Gaddafi right .... turned his back on the Russians and threw his lot in with Blair and Bush.... doing a few nixers for them ...... torturing their prisoners.

Russia seems to have been well caught on the hop over Libya, and may not have thought Gaddafi's regime would collapse, or that the entire Libyan army pulverised in thousands of bombing raids.

This is being given as the reason they are standing back in Syria.

None of these military quasi radicals have been able to sustain progressive regimes. Can't be done top down.

Count Bobulescu
18-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Russia sending ships to Syria to protect base and evacuate personnel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/report-russia-to-send-navy-ships-carrying-marines-to-syria-to-protect-base/2012/06/18/gJQAPvrpkV_story.html?hpid=z5


MOSCOW Two Russian navy ships are completing preparations to sail to Syria with a unit of marines on a mission to protect Russian citizens and the nations base there, a news report said Monday. The deployment appears to reflect Moscows growing concern about Syrian President Bashar Assads future.

ang
20-06-2012, 12:30 AM
Big change in Russian stance if correct - Putin no longer backs Syria's Assad: Cameron -


But Cameron said Putin had shifted his view of the Syrian leader during talks with U.S. President Barack Obama and other world leaders at a Group of 20 summit in Mexico, and that discussions were now focused on a transition.

"There remain differences over sequencing and the shape of how the transition takes place but it is welcome that President Putin has been explicit that he does not want Assad remaining in charge in Syria," Cameron told reporters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/19/us-g20-syria-putin-idUSBRE85I1S320120619

C. Flower
20-06-2012, 12:31 AM
Big change in Russian stance if correct - Putin no longer backs Syria's Assad: Cameron -



http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/19/us-g20-syria-putin-idUSBRE85I1S320120619

Some kind of deal over port access ?

ang
20-06-2012, 12:45 AM
Some kind of deal over port access ?

Has to be something along those lines.

I would though prefer to hear directly from Putin, this second hand news can at times lead to great confusion.

DCon
23-06-2012, 12:01 AM
Syria has shot down a Turkish jet




Here is the rub: Turkey is a NATO member, and by definition the alliance will have to come to Turkey's aid if requested. Syria, however is not just any country as has been made quite clear over the past several months of UN impotence: it is a critical staging ground for both Russia (which has a very critical regional naval base in the city of Tartus) and China, and according to the Jerusalem Post, the three countries are in preparation to conduct the "largest ever" war game. As such Syria, already gripped by fierce local fighting, where just like in Egypt and Libya the presence of US-based flipflop on the ground can be smelt from across the Atlantic, is merely a symbol. The real implication is how far can little escalations push until finally the showdown begins, with NATO on one side and Russia and China on the other?





Given the breakdown in relations between the two countries over the Syrian conflict, this incident has the potential to provoke a serious crisis. When gunfire from Syrian forces crossed the Turkish border earlier this year, Ankara threatened a military response.



Much will depend on whether or not the Turkish pilots have survived. If not, public anger might push the government into some kind of punitive action against Syria.



Syria's response will also influence Turkey's reaction. A clear apology, and a statement that the shooting was unintentional, might be enough to assuage Turkish anger.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/escalation-syria-says-turkish-jet-shot-down-was-over-syrian-territorial-waters

PaddyJoe
23-06-2012, 12:45 AM
And Syria have confirmed it.

The Syrian military has said it shot down a Turkish plane "flying in airspace over Syrian waters", according to state-run news agency Sana.

"[The jet] was dealt with in accordance with the laws that govern such situations," a military spokesman said.

Turkey had earlier said it believed that one of its F-4 fighter jets had been shot down by Syrian forces.

A search for the two crew members is under way, involving Turkish and Syrian coast guard ships.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18561219

PaddyJoe
23-06-2012, 12:50 AM
The Guardian claims Turkey has allowed the establishment of a command centre in Istanbul which is co-ordinating supply lines with rebel leaders inside Syria. The centre is believed to be staffed by up to 22 people, most of them Syrian nationals.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/22/saudi-arabia-syria-rebel-army

ang
23-06-2012, 08:55 AM
Syrian military says it downed Turkish fighter jet -


The Syrian military has said that it shot down a Turkish warplane "flying in airspace over Syrian waters".

A spokesman said the plane, an F-4 Phantom, was dealt with "according to the laws that govern such situations", the state news agency Sana said.

The Turkish prime minister said his country would "take the necessary steps" once all the facts were known.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18561219

C. Flower
26-06-2012, 09:04 PM
More firing on Turkish search and rescue craft, reportedly. Assad must be desperate for a distraction for the population.

Meanwhile, there have been a good number of high level army defections from the regime in the last day.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/syrian-officers-flee-to-turkey-556649.html

riposte
26-06-2012, 09:20 PM
NATO backs down..proposes no action.


Ambassadors of NATO's 28 member states met in Brussels to consult with Turkey on Friday's incident.

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said NATO security was "indivisible".

However, he said NATO's Article 5, which calls for member states to see an attack on one country as an attack on all the alliance's members, had not been discussed.

C. Flower
01-07-2012, 08:13 PM
A Syrian dissident writing in the US gives a fairly convincing description of how Assad is playing the sectarian card, isolating Alawites from the uprising, which covers much of the country, and compares Syria to Yugoslavia as it broke up.

This writer is pro-intervention, along the lines of NATO in Yugoslavia. He believes that the problem is lack of a leadership determined to move forward towards a non-sectarian state.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/columns/west-must-halt-sectarian-slide/1237722

C. Flower
05-07-2012, 12:43 PM
The sheer arrogance of the big powers expressed through Kofi Annan of the UN, organising conferences with the intention of deciding the political future of Syria, while excluding the Syrian opposition in favour of their own favoured ex pats, is outrageous. Neither side want the "solutions" coming out of these diplomatic manoeverings.

Michael Jansen in the Irish Times is writing reports on Syria that shed a bit more light than most, and has pointed out the exclusion of the on-the-ground Syrian opposition from so called peace processes. He appears to be genuinely trying to be neutral.
Although there is a contradiction between his reminders that both sides accuse each other of inventing stories for propoganda purposes, and his citing as fact events which he did not view first hand.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0703/1224319264396.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0702/1224319179510.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0211/1224311610535.html

Jansen also correctly reports that the roots of the uprising were economic, not sectarian.


AN ECONOMY IN REVERSE


Syrians agree that nearly a year of unrest has largely reversed the gains the country made during the economic liberalisation programme launched by the government in 2004-05. During this period Syria’s Soviet-style command economy was transformed into a “social market” system, designed to provide a safety net for the poor and lower middle class while opening Syria’s doors to foreign banks, investment, trade and tourism, effecting a rapid transformation of a country that had shunned the world. Luxury hotels sprouted up in Damascus and Aleppo, western designer clothing shops proliferated, ATMs were planted on street corners and new foreign-manufactured cars filled the streets.

But the safety net did not materialise, prompting protests by have-nots against the haves that have turned into an armed rebellion demanding “regime change.” Now, women carrying bundled babies, and children with filthy faces and tattered jerseys beg in the streets. Sanctions imposed by the international community are stripping bare the cupboards of poor and middle-class folk but not harming the rich and powerful.

fluffybiscuits
05-07-2012, 05:02 PM
http://www.thejournal.ie/wikileaks-syria-files-511285-Jul2012/

Wikileaks have released a number of files for viewing on the whole Syria affair . The files can be viewed here ..

http://wikileaks.org/syria-files/

riposte
07-07-2012, 01:45 PM
Despite the fact that parties on both sides of the conflict in Syria have been responsible for violence, the international NATO-aligned media has hyped often dubious accusations of Assad-sponsored massacres while virtually ignoring massacres, beheadings and other acts of brutality carried out by rebel insurgents.

Whereas the establishment media, particularly the likes of CNN and the London Guardian, have prostrated themselves as 24-hour rolling propaganda platforms for anonymous “activists” with Twitter accounts, showcasing unverified You Tube clips of alleged atrocities, equally disturbing footage of rebels committing acts of savagery have been buried.


http://www.infowars.com/shocking-videos-reveal-truth-behind-syrian-freedom-fighters/

C. Flower
07-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Via Wikileaks



MEMORANDUM

TO: Fares Kallas

FROM: Brown Lloyd James

RE: Crisis Communications Analysis



It is clear from US government pronouncements since the beginning of the public demonstrations in Syria that the Obama Administration wants the leadership in Syria to survive. Unlike its response to demonstrations in some other countries in the region, there have been no US demands for regime change in Syria nor any calls for military intervention, criticism has been relatively muted and punitive sanctions—by not being aimed directly at President Assad--have been intended more as a caution than as an instrument to hurt the leadership.

However, the tone of the Administration’s statements has grown noticeably harsher in recent weeks and may be nearing a tipping point that could make a reassessment of the US position towards Syria inevitable. One potential bellwether of this shift is the transformation in the public statements of US Senator John Kerry, the Administration’s de facto point man on outreach to Syria. Senator Kerry has begun to publicly backtrack his often-repeated confidence in the leadership’s ability to reform.

Media coverage of the situation in Syria has tracked with the Administration’s political arc. US media coverage of events in Syria was initially marginal, but has since moved closer to the front of the newspaper and the top of the broadcast news. This not only reinforces the Administration’s change of tone, it is emboldening critics--who maintain that Syria's reform efforts are not sincere--and building up pressure on the US government to take further, more drastic steps against the country.

Assessment of Syria’s Communications:
Strategically, Syria has had an imbalance in its communications approach since the beginning of the crisis. If hard power is necessary to quell rebellion, soft power is needed to reassure the Syrian people and outside audiences that reform is proceeding apace, legitimate grievances are being addressed and taken seriously, and that Syria’s actions are ultimately aimed at creating an environment in which change and progress can take place.

No one within the leadership seems to “own” the reform agenda from a communications standpoint. Beyond the government reshuffle and the President’s two dramatic speeches, reform has taken a back seat to the immediate political crisis, which dominates headlines and the public’s perception of events. Domestically, This may result in a situation in which the demonstrators have been sent back to their houses, but predominantly out of fear rather than conviction that their government is responsive to their concerns—a recipe for restiveness and instability going forward. Here in the US and the west, the imbalance will embolden critics and reinforce those who don’t believe reform is sincere.



Recommendations:
Syria seems to be communicating with two hands. One is offering reform and the other, rule of law. Rule of law is a fist. Reform is an open hand. Right now the fist appears to the outside world, and probably to many Syrians, as though it is ten times bigger than the outstretched palm. They must be brought into better balance.

Reform-oriented outreach must be dramatically improved, at home and abroad, or else the credibility of these efforts—and a key part of the President’s appeal and popularity among the people—will be diminished. Refocusing the perception of outsiders and Syrians on reform will provide political cover to the generally sympathetic US Government, and will delegitimize critics at home and abroad.

In our view, the President needs to communicate more often and with more finely-tuned messaging and the First Lady needs to get in the game. The absence of a public figure as popular, capable, and attuned to the hopes of the people as Her Excellency at such a critical moment is conspicuous. The key is to show strength and sympathy at once.

The “reform” program does not yet have a face or brand. A public, visible campaign should be launched, even while the crisis continues, to engage ordinary Syrians in reform. This will keep people focused on the future and remind Syrians and the world of the President’s hopes and expectations for the country.

The campaign should deploy street teams in communities to poll citizens on their reform priorities and ideas; each team member can post their experiences online or on social media to create a cross current to the criticisms that dominate those mediums.
This campaign should include a listening tour w FL and PR together. They can make unannounced stops that carefully engage families and young people.
The campaign should create a reform “echo-chamber” by developing media coverage outside of Syria that points to the President’s difficult task of wanting reform, but conducted in an non-chaotic, rational way. The conditions for reform include peace and stability. These stories can be developed through direct interviews with the President and other senior advisors, op-ed and commentary articles written by credible third parties. This coverage will rebound into Syria.
The campaign should be branded with a forward-looking title, such as “Syria al-Yaum, Syria Bukra.”

Communications can also be improved on the security side. President Assad has ordered investigations into troops and security forces that defied his command not to fire on unarmed civilians. The leadership should make a very public, visible show of punishing/firing/indicting troops that violate his orders. It would be a way of unequivocally showing that anyone who breaks the law--whether they be demonstrators or soldiers--will be held accountable. It will also demonstrate his fairness and his committment that his objective is to restore calm and civility so that reform can take place.

Syria must improve its ability to contain negative media stories circulated by opposition figures living outside Syria. This includes countering rumors (such as the recent example that stated Her Excellency has “left Syria for London”) and the daily torrent of criticism and lies. Such a professionalized, through capability would include:

24-hour media monitoring and response system should be in place with assets in UK and US markets.
Social media sites should be monitored and false sites should be challenged and removed.
A steady, constantly updated messaging document that contains talking points geared to latest developments.

Efforts should be made to convey “normalcy” and a contrast to current news depicting Syria as being on the verge of chaos.
Structure:
A crisis communications structure should be developed to help manage daily communications. Daily messages, statements and press releases should be developed by this team and disseminated worldwide.

Messaging:
As suggested above, messaging should be evaluated on a daily-basis. From a general standpoint, Syria should:

Continue to stress that the majority of its people have legitimate grievances that the leadership wants to address. However, appeal to Syrians’ patriotism and emphasize that there is no need to destroy the country to achieve goals that everyone shares: a free and prosperous country.
Acknowledge that the violence taking place is regrettable. But the leadership did not seek this. The leadership is obligated to protect Syria and to create the conditions of calm necessary for reform to take place.
Continue to express confidence in the future, and that the crisis is waning.

http://wikileaks.org/syria-files/docs/2089956_political-communications.html

The Washington Post explains, up to a point, who the authors (Brown Llloyd James) are.

Described as giving PR advice to Assad, but to my mind advising use of simultaneous hard and soft force against the political opposition goes a very long way beyond PR.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/washingtons-syria-lobbyists-hard-power-necessary-to-quell-rebellion/2012/07/06/gJQA0jBWSW_blog.html


Fares Kallas is Asma al-Assad's advisor/media advisor

riposte
07-07-2012, 09:26 PM
Via Wikileaks




http://wikileaks.org/syria-files/docs/2089956_political-communications.html

The Washington Post explains, up to a point, who the authors (Brown Llloyd James) are.

Described as giving PR advice to Assad, but to my mind advising use of simultaneous hard and soft force against the political opposition goes a very long way beyond PR.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/washingtons-syria-lobbyists-hard-power-necessary-to-quell-rebellion/2012/07/06/gJQA0jBWSW_blog.html


Fares Kallas is Asma al-Assad's advisor/media advisor

Fabricated rubbish ...... the sooner they put Julian in jail for sex offences the better.

C. Flower
07-07-2012, 09:30 PM
Fabricated rubbish ...... the sooner they put Julian in jail for sex offences the better.


Wikileaks is a mess. The first file I looked at was a set of profiles and photos of young Syrians with Down Syndrome who were taking part in some kind of charitable initiative, with no explanation of context.

The way the files have been disseminated (and withheld) has been bizarre.

That doesn't mean that the files themselves are inauthentic.

Which part of that do you think is fabricated?

riposte
07-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Wikileaks is a mess. The first file I looked at was a set of profiles and photos of young Syrians with Down Syndrome who were taking part in some kind of charitable initiative, with no explanation of context.

The way the files have been disseminated (and withheld) has been bizarre.

That doesn't mean that the files themselves are inauthentic.

Which part of that do you think is fabricated?

Cactus ......Wikileaks is an outsourced CIA black-ops phenomenon ...... the idea that the US wants Assad to survive ......in the wake of Hilary Clinton's attack on Russia and China in the last 24 hours would require you to stand on your head and whistle Dixie.

C. Flower
07-07-2012, 09:49 PM
Cactus ......Wikileaks is an outsourced CIA black-ops phenomenon ...... the idea that the US wants Assad to survive ......in the wake of Hilary Clinton's attack on Russia and China in the last 24 hours would require you to stand on your head and whistle Dixie.


That's a possibility I've considered. If it is, it is not particularly effective.

The cables are low level stuff, but have given a good picture of that low level interaction between the US and their global friends and supporters.

riposte
07-07-2012, 09:56 PM
That's a possibility I've considered. If it is, it is not particularly effective.

The cables are low level stuff, but have given a good picture of that low level interaction between the US and their global friends and supporters.

The day that they reveal anything of any significance about Israel is the day that they will gain credibility.

They have published information that was damaging to relationships between India and Pakistan ....... and to the Irish "left."

Who knows the mind of the CIA?

C. Flower
07-07-2012, 10:08 PM
The day that reveal they anything of any significance about Israel is the day that they will gain credibility.

They have published information that was damaging to relationships between India and Pakistan ....... and to the Irish "left."

Who knows the mind of the CIA?

What was damaging to the Irish left? Surely not the Gilmore cable?

It was open to Gilmore to issue a clear denial/refutation, and he hasn't.

riposte
07-07-2012, 10:28 PM
What was damaging to the Irish left? Surely not the Gilmore cable?

It was open to Gilmore to issue a clear denial/refutation, and he hasn't.

Yeah ..... the Gilmore cable ........ and he didn't deny it..... so that's true ....... doesn't follow that everything in the "leaks" are true ...... obviously ..... some of it has to be true if it is to fool anybody. The "leaks" are an ideal way to fight a propaganda war.... with "plausible deniaibility."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

Ephilant
10-07-2012, 02:03 PM
Now it is time to worry.
Local stations report that 2 russian warships, the CAESAR KUNIKOV and the NIKOLAI FILCHENKOV, accompanied by 2 tugboats have entered the Aegean Sea, heading for Syria. they are currently South of Imvros island.


The Russian warships carry units from some of the most elite Russian land formations, from the 431 Battalion VMF (some of its units are already in Syria since February), the 76th Airborne Division Pskov, the 15th Brigade, units of the GRU from the Caucasus, specialized to deal with Islamic terrorists, and some Black Sea Marine units (defencenet)

there are also reports of the Russian destroyer SMETLIVY having left Sevastopol, heading for Syria.

russia has not offered any explanation for this secret mission. the ships are being shadowed by the Greek Navy.

Sam Lord
10-07-2012, 02:09 PM
russia has not offered any explanation for this secret mission. the ships are being shadowed by the Greek Navy.

Yes, very worrying.

And on what basis is the "west" going to assert that they do not have the right to intervene?

riposte
10-07-2012, 02:10 PM
Now it is time to worry.
Local stations report that 2 russian warships, the CAESAR KUNIKOV and the NIKOLAI FILCHENKOV, accompanied by 2 tugboats have entered the Aegean Sea, heading for Syria. they are currently South of Imvros island.



there are also reports of the Russian destroyer SMETLIVY having left Sevastopol, heading for Syria.

russia has not offered any explanation for this secret mission. the ships are being shadowed by the Greek Navy.

Have Greek Navy got any fuel? ..... and who is paying for it?......... I thought the Iranians had cut off supplies to Greece.

riposte
10-07-2012, 02:13 PM
Yes, very worrying.

And on what basis is the "west" going to assert that they do not have the right to intervene?

The Brtis will withdraw their insurance and they'll have to turn back....... again.

Ephilant
10-07-2012, 02:20 PM
Have Greek Navy got any fuel? ..... and who is paying for it?......... I thought the Iranians had cut off supplies to Greece.

Our military still have friends in Bulgaria in the fuel laundering business :D

According to the bulletins here the ships are heading for Taurus, with orders to re-enforce and defend the Russian naval base "at any cost".
Unconfirmed reports from Turkey are quoted as shadowing extensive Naval activity in the Black Sea.

riposte
10-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Our military still have friends in Bulgaria in the fuel laundering business :D

According to the bulletins here the ships are heading for Taurus, with orders to re-enforce and defend the Russian naval base "at any cost".
.

Jazzis Ephilant........ you were my man in Athens .... I didn't know you had a hotline to the Kremlin...lol !!

Ephilant
10-07-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm not just a pretty face you know ;)

Reuters now picking up on this as well


Destroyer Smetlivy, which patrolled waters off the coast of Syria in April and May, was seen leaving the Black Sea port of Sevastopol on Tuesday morning.

The vessel is expected to reach the Turkish straits tomorrow morning, the source said, speaking on condition of anonymity, adding that the ship was heading to Syria.

The navy declined to confirm its destination.

The vessel has gone to sea, I cannot tell you anything else, Vyacheslav Trukhachyov, a spokesman for Russias Black Sea Fleet, said.

Count Bobulescu
11-07-2012, 09:19 PM
ISTANBUL The Syrian ambassador to Iraq has defected and will seek asylum in Turkey, the most senior diplomat to abandon the regime since the uprising against President Bashar Assad began 16 months ago, a Syrian opposition figure said Wednesday.
The ambassador, Nawaf Fares, is heading to Turkey, said Khaled Khoja, a member of the opposition Syrian National Council. If confirmed, it would be the second major defection to hit the Assad regime in less than a week.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/un-envoy-kofi-annan-presses-his-peace-plan-for-syria-with-damascus-allies-iran-and-iraq/2012/07/10/gJQA11flbW_story.html?hpid=z6

bormotello
11-07-2012, 10:05 PM
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/1628/1000x08.jpg

A Turkish Navy cost guard boat (L) escorts the Russian Navy destroyer Smetlivy in the Bosphorus in Istanbul July 11, 2012.


Looks like Syrian didn't learn much from Russian experience in Chechnya that tanks cannot operate without infantry
&#x202b;*لب - اعزاز || تفجير دبابة - كتائب أ*رار الشام 10-7-2012 جـ2&#x202c;&lrm; - YouTube
10 7 Izaaz Aleppo أوغاريت إعزاز *لب , تفجير دبابة على يد كتائب أ*رار الشام من الجيش ال*ر , هاااام لوسائل الإعلام ج2 - YouTube

Sam Lord
11-07-2012, 10:49 PM
Looks like Syrian didn't learn much from Russian experience in Chechnya that tanks cannot operate without infantry


I think I enjoyed the enthusiasm of the guy making the video as much as the sight of Assad's tanks taking hits.

Count Bobulescu
13-07-2012, 03:59 AM
Conflict now moving beyond Homs, Hama etc. and another 200 massacre, toward Damascus.

DAMASCUS The revolution that has engulfed much of Syria in bloodshed is now encroaching on the capital in ways that challenge long-held assumptions about President Bashar al-Assads hold on power even in the city presumed to be his stronghold.

Compared with places such as Homs, Hama and Deir al-Zour, where bombardments and battles are commonplace, Damascus is still relatively calm. No longer, however, can the government boast that the capital is an oasis of tranquility or that a silent majority of its residents are loyal to the regime.

The city now feels pregnant with rage, and ready to explode.

Anti-regime graffiti are scribbled on the walls in almost every neighborhood. At night, the sound of shelling in nearby suburbs that have fallen under rebel control echoes through the streets, disturbing the sleep of rich and poor alike. Flying or tayara protests, in which small groups stage sudden and swift demonstrations, are increasing even in some of the more upmarket neighborhoods of the city. And recent strikes by merchants of the renowned Damascus souks have eroded perceptions that they still support the government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/with-influx-of-refugees-syrian-rebellion-reaches-deeper-into-heart-of-damascus/2012/07/12/gJQACBHVgW_story.html

Count Bobulescu
13-07-2012, 04:46 PM
SYRIA MOVING CHEMICAL WEAPONS. U.S. officials say Syria has begun mobilizing its chemical weapon stockpiles and transporting them out of storage facilities, the Wall Street Journal reports. Some in Washington say this is an alarming development that could lead to such weapons being used against opposition forces and civilians, while other analysts say the move by Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is simply to safeguard the materials from his opponents. We have repeatedly made it clear that the Syrian government has a responsibility to safeguard its stockpiles of chemical weapons, and that the international community will hold accountable any Syrian officials who fail to meet that obligation," Department of State spokeswoman Victoria Nuland told the Journal. Read more.

http://nationaljournal.com/nationalsecurity/u-s-fears-syria-moving-chemical-weapon-stockpiles-20120713

C. Flower
13-07-2012, 06:10 PM
Conflict now moving beyond Homs, Hama etc. and another 200 massacre, toward Damascus.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/with-influx-of-refugees-syrian-rebellion-reaches-deeper-into-heart-of-damascus/2012/07/12/gJQACBHVgW_story.html

There are serious efforts from parties unknown to fuel sectarianism at this stage.

Hopefully a general uprising will call a halt to this.

riposte
13-07-2012, 09:04 PM
It's all lies.

C. Flower
13-07-2012, 10:20 PM
It's all lies.

You may enjoy this so.

http://nsnbc.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/middle-east-master-plan-towards-war-and-fascism-2/

Right in that the Muslim Brotherhood has been fostered by the US, and that long term destabilisation is the US aim for some states, partly with a view to containment / wearing down of Russia and China, wrong, in my opinion to write off the possibility of autonomous action by masses of people.

Sam Lord
14-07-2012, 01:03 AM
You may enjoy this so.

http://nsnbc.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/middle-east-master-plan-towards-war-and-fascism-2/

Right in that the Muslim Brotherhood has been fostered by the US, and that long term destabilisation is the US aim for some states, partly with a view to containment / wearing down of Russia and China, wrong, in my opinion to write off the possibility of autonomous action by masses of people.

What a head the ball.

On Gaddafi



By Dr. Christof Lehmann

Today is one of the days where I am desperately looking for words. There is no measure of eloquence that could cover over the fact that the message of the murder of Muammar Ghadafi and his son Mutassim is one more outrage of the inhumanity of a war based on the betrayal of all who believe in humanitarian principles and humanity.

Africa has once again lost one of its great leaders. From Lumumba to Rwanda, to the outrages in Darfur, to the manufacturing of hunger that murders millions, to Gbagbo, and Ghadafi, the footprint of European and US Colonialism and aggression is written in the blood, sweat and tears of millions.

I will make this article short because it takes time to grasp the full implications of the murder and the loss. One thing I will say though, and say with absolute confidence. The murder of Muammar Ghadafi was the greatest blunder the war mongers behind the war on Libya have committed. His death has elevated Muammar Ghadafi to the level he had deserved for decades; that of one of the greatest revolutionaries the world has seen. By murdering Muammar Ghadafi, NATO has succeeded in eliciting the fact that he is larger than life. He will be remembered along side with other giants like Yassir Arafat, Fidel Castro Ruz, Mao Tse Dung, Lenin, Che Guevara.


Insanity. A nut case mourning a nut case.

I look forward to his obituary of Assad ... but mainly because Assad will be dead.

C. Flower
14-07-2012, 01:11 AM
What a head the ball.

On Gaddafi



Insanity. A nut case mourning a nut case.

I look forward to his obituary of Assad ... but mainly because Assad will be dead.

Undoubtedly. Crazy as a coconut.

Kev Bar
24-07-2012, 05:47 PM
Interesting piece

"The debate surrounding Syria has stooped very low among self-identified leftists and anti-imperialists..."

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/6383/asad-apologists_the-ostrich-syndrome

Count Bobulescu
24-07-2012, 10:28 PM
SYRIA: WE WILL NEVER USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS TO QUASH UPRISING. Israel's President Shimon Peres on Monday told CNN that his country will be forced to seize Syria's chemical weapons if it determines there is a risk President Bashar al-Assad would use them against the Jewish state or the weapons could fall into terrorist hands. That same day, the Syrian government said that it would not use chemical weapons against its own people. Insisting the stockpiles remain under the control of Assad's forces, the foreign ministry said all the attention focused on the weapons of mass destruction simply "aims to justify and prepare the international communitys military intervention in Syria under the false pretext of W.M.D.," according to The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/world/middleeast/chemical-weapons-wont-be-used-in-rebellion-syria-says.html?_r=2&hp

Sam Lord
25-07-2012, 12:42 AM
Syrian Air Force in action tonight. Attacking it's own people.

C. Flower
25-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Interesting piece

"The debate surrounding Syria has stooped very low among self-identified leftists and anti-imperialists..."

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/6383/asad-apologists_the-ostrich-syndrome

Very useful article as a basis for discussion although I am not sure that "Third Way" is at all the right term to use in this context.


The regime has not done nearly enough compared to its allies in consolidating its anti-imperialist stance mainly because it is busier consolidating its internal control and dominance. To continue to insist on blanket support for Asad under the pretense of an anti-imperialist stance is to confuse anti-imperialism with blind support for nationalist elites. Furthermore, a refusal to conflate the two is not an invention of “liberal armchair intellectuals” as some first wayers claim. Such a refusal was substantively formulated by one of the pillars of anti-colonial thought, Frantz Fanon, whose name is conspicuously absent from the political lexicon of Asad apologists. Long before neoliberal elites had come to power, Fanon warned against the excesses of nationalist bourgeois elites in using anti-imperialist or anti-colonial discourse to disguise their own comprador role in consolidating imperialist structures of control. Fanon’s analysis might actually help explain why some Arab leftists, who are likely more sensitive to anti-colonial history than international anti-imperialists, are third wayers rather than outright supporters of the regime.

But instead of invoking Fanon, apologists will go so far as to invoke Lenin’s quote about third-party politics, which is really a language trick no different than someone quoting Tony Blair’s own reference to a “third way” in order to undermine third-way politics in Syria. Lenin was at times more than willing to compromise when it came to dealing with imperialist forces (i.e., the Brest Liovsk treaty). In the instance of his critique of third-way politics, the communist leader was actually more concerned with class struggle and contemptuous of those, like liberal socialists, who did not take a firm and uncompromising position in this struggle against the bourgeois class. In fact, a reference that would have better served Asad apologists is Lenin’s disagreement with Rosa Luxemburg over backing the third-world bourgeoisie. Lenin’s critique of third-way politics may thus ironically lend itself more to backing calls for no compromise with Asad, given that the Syrian uprising’s class is largely made up of the countryside peasantry and suburban working class. It is true that the peasantry have a very dubious representation in the intellectual history of Marxism. In the case of Syria, the dominant political expression of their uprising has not only taken on a reactionary form (read “religious” in Marxist terms). It is in fact, contrary to what many pro-uprising folks want us to believe for romantic or more sinister reasons, backed by imperialist and reactionary regional regimes. However, admitting this problematic political expression of the uprising necessitates a third way, not a stance that is apologetic for the Asad regime.

The Left seems to be universally locked into support for national bourgeois radical, or formerly radical, regimes to the exclusion of the possibility of independent action by the working class and peasantry.

Both the outside powers with their expat 'rebels' and the left, backing Assad, are hostile to the 'organic revolution' mentioned by the writer.

With a vacuum of leadership and organisation on the left, this will inevitably take on religious or other random forms.

The whole discourse on the left, including this writer, seems to think that anti-Imperialist national regimes like Assad's can be relied on for social progress.

Instead of which they are not capable of even defending past gains. The US and UK are voracious for new and deeper territorial control and these regimes, without support of their populations, are not capable of resistance.

C. Flower
27-07-2012, 11:17 AM
The recent senior Syrian army "defectors" are - surprise surprise - emerging as would-be replacements for Assad, presumably US-backed, putting forward a managed 'transition' (Clinton's term has really caught on) as in the Yemen and Egypt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/26/us-syria-crisis-tlas-idUSBRE86P1ES20120726

Saudi Arabia appears to be acting as the main US proxy and has put forward a UN resolution seeking 'humanitarian access' to Syria.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/48684/World/Region/Saudi-Arabia-seeks-new-UN-resolution-on-Syria-.aspx

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/0/48626/World/0/Two-more-Syrian-generals-defect-to-Turkey-diplomat.aspx

In the meantime, the local armed opposition, reportedly only with light arms, is being drawn into battle in Aleppo, where they are under attack from the Syrian airforce and army.

I hope they keep on the move, keep their heads down and stay alive.

riposte
27-07-2012, 12:48 PM
In the meantime, the local armed opposition, reportedly only with light arms, is being drawn into battle in Aleppo, where they are under attack from the Syrian airforce and army.

I hope they keep on the move, keep their heads down and stay alive.

The sooner they get their balaclava clad heads blown off the better.

bormotello
27-07-2012, 01:57 PM
Few more photos from Aleppo

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5671/1000nxm.jpg

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8581/ghaithssyriangallery002.jpg

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/9580/i727a503e1abcb83b6e6cae.jpg

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/6479/freesyrianoppositionfig.jpg

What is interesting, guys on first two photos have M16 and M24 sniper rifles.
The only countries in region who use them are lebanon and Israel. Turkey use M16, but mostly M16A4 with different handguard and they don't use M24, because they prefer German sniper rifles

Kev Bar
27-07-2012, 03:35 PM
The day that they reveal anything of any significance about Israel is the day that they will gain credibility.

They have published information that was damaging to relationships between India and Pakistan ....... and to the Irish "left."

Who knows the mind of the CIA?

When American policy makers are critical of Israel is when you are liklely to read leaked US communication critical of Israel.

You can only leak what exists.


Foreign correspondents are spies

Great news.

Perhaps you could tell me to whom I should address an invoice for several years of service as I could badly do with the money.

bormotello
27-07-2012, 03:39 PM
Few more photos
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8976/76406653302f8d2a3d37o.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2843/7511347408b719c79ae7o.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9423/75113527169fd455cb1eo.jpg
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/9673/7559697116d903519a9fo.jpg


http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/512/210781087.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3315/210781090.jpg
Looks like camera is important as ammunition for DSHK

bormotello
27-07-2012, 03:40 PM
In the meantime, the local armed opposition, reportedly only with light arms, is being drawn into battle in Aleppo, where they are under attack from the Syrian airforce and army.

RPG's and IED are more deadly against tanks than cannons in CQB
&#x202b;مسرب من هاتف ا*د جنود الاسد&#x202c;&lrm; - YouTube

C. Flower
27-07-2012, 03:51 PM
Good thread on Military Photos here -

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?204322-Syrian-Uprising-Photos-and-Videos-Thread/page249

riposte
27-07-2012, 03:53 PM
When American policy makers are critical of Israel is when you are liklely to read leaked US communication critical of Israel.

You can only leak what exists.



Great news.

Perhaps you could tell me to whom I should address an invoice for several years of service as I could badly do with the money.

You wouldn't be trusted Kev ....... there's a suspicion going around that you are honest.

C. Flower
27-07-2012, 03:56 PM
Any source for those camera photos bormotello? Not much in the image to say where or what it is.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/512/210781087.jpg

bormotello
27-07-2012, 06:17 PM
Any source for those camera photos bormotello? Not much in the image to say where or what it is.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/512/210781087.jpg

From here


Good thread on Military Photos here -

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?204322-Syrian-Uprising-Photos-and-Videos-Thread/page240

C. Flower
27-07-2012, 06:34 PM
From here

Ah. Looking at that image across Google, it appears to mainly have been published across Russian media. It could be anywhere.

C. Flower
27-07-2012, 06:53 PM
Interesting - who's who in the Syrian rebellion ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/captive-photojournalists-saved-by-syrian-rebels-560923.html

riposte
27-07-2012, 07:18 PM
Captive photojournalists saved by Syrian rebels

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/captive-photojournalists-saved-by-syrian-rebels-560923.html

and they didn't blame Assad..... they are falling down on the job.

Kev Bar
27-07-2012, 11:50 PM
You wouldn't be trusted Kev ....... there's a suspicion going around that you are honest.

I'm sure Sam Lord would rid you of that suspicion.:)

This rescued journo sounds like an impressive gent.



His captors bandaged his wounds but kept the two men handcuffed and blindfolded after that, he said.

"I was wounded, but the bullets missed all the vital parts, and I'm frisky as a puppy and enormously happy that I've survived it all, that it ended well," he said.

C. Flower
28-07-2012, 12:51 AM
I'm sure Sam Lord would rid you of that suspicion.:)

This rescued journo sounds like an impressive gent.

A touch euphoric, I thought. :D

People Korps
28-07-2012, 12:54 AM
A lot of military jets flying east over Paris quite low tonight

C. Flower
28-07-2012, 12:01 PM
Battle on in Aleppo.

riposte
28-07-2012, 12:37 PM
The rebels must be very well armed to declare war on Russia.


Syria Rebels May Attack Russia Naval Base

http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/nightwatch/2012/07/28/syria_rebels_may_attack_russia_naval_base

C. Flower
06-08-2012, 03:41 PM
Bashar al Assad not seen since the bomb of 18th July. Some rumours about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/01/bashar-al-assad-seen-public

C. Flower
07-08-2012, 03:04 AM
PM has "defected"

Carrot and stick / take the money or wait for the next "suicide bomb" ?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/syrian-pm-and-family-flee-country-562013.html

C. Flower
11-08-2012, 09:05 AM
Just came across this Sunday Times report from last January that gives a picture that is consistent with the youtubes coming out of Syria at that time.

http://milesamoore.com/2012/01/29/inside-syria-florist-martyr-spurs-syrian-rebels/

At that stage, there were street protests going on an armed opposition was poorly equipped and mainly consisted of defectors from the Syrian army.

C. Flower
11-08-2012, 09:27 AM
Here's the youtube of al-Harati

Al Mahdi Al Harati.mpg - YouTube

And another.

As would be expected, comments on him are very much divided. He clearly has leadership capabilities.

&#x202b;كيف تمت السيطرة على طرابلس وإسقاط القذافي ؟&#x202c;&lrm; - YouTube

Sam Lord
13-08-2012, 12:28 PM
Interesting article in the Sunday Times on how the US is stopping the importation of anti-tank weapons and surface to air misiles to the opposition in Syria. RPG's and AK's are fine but anything more sophisticated is being embargoed.

The US strategy appears to be to keep the conflict running as long as possible at its current level.

Sam Lord
15-08-2012, 01:23 PM
Interesting bit of Syrian history from the Guardian. In 1957 the Brits and the Yanks planned to assassinate what they saw as the three "top men" in Damascus (including the head of the Communist Party) invade the country and install a "friendly" regime. They understood that this regime would be unpopular and acknowledged that it would "would probably need to rely first upon repressive measures and arbitrary exercise of power."

Making the world safe for "democracy". :)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/27/uk.syria1

TotalMayhem
27-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Hollande calls on the rebels to form a provisional government which France would recognise, also threatens Assad with military strikes.

riposte
27-08-2012, 08:24 PM
All the media's lies explained in a single video.

Are they lying about Syria? You bet your life they are.

LIBYA: A Journalist tells the Truth & the lies explained - YouTube

Sam Lord
27-08-2012, 09:39 PM
Are they lying about Syria? You bet your life they are.


What are the lies Riposte? Perhaps you could outline a few of the bigger ones. I watched most of the video and Syria was not mentioned so I understood nothing from it.

riposte
27-08-2012, 10:52 PM
What are the lies Riposte? Perhaps you could outline a few of the bigger ones. I watched most of the video and Syria was not mentioned so I understood nothing from it.

Sam Syria wasn't mentioned because they hadn't got around to Syria when the video was made ........ but the modus operandi holds true for Syria and Syria was always on their list. However, they thought that Russia and China would roll over as they did with Libya ....... but then they can't be right all the time.

None of these "Springs" were home grown..... what surprises me is that a Marxist like yourself could be taken in by all this stuff.

Sam Lord
28-08-2012, 12:19 AM
Sam Syria wasn't mentioned because they hadn't got around to Syria when the video was made ........ but the modus operandi holds true for Syria and Syria was always on their list. However, they thought that Russia and China would roll over as they did with Libya ....... but then they can't be right all the time.

None of these "Springs" were home grown..... what surprises me is that a Marxist like yourself could be taken in by all this stuff.

I'm just asking what are the lies about Syria. You seem determined to keep them to yourself.

As a marxist I take a materialist approach to things. I would see the basis of the Arab spring in the material conditions in these countries ... the increasing inability of the society to find employment for the youth, the increasing difficulty of the masses in being able to sustain themslelves .. obtain food etc.

Others would have an idealist approach of various sorts. Some will tell you that it is all the doing of Islamic fundamentalists while others will assert that the hand of the US is behind everything.

riposte
28-08-2012, 12:36 AM
I'm just asking what are the lies about Syria. You seem determined to keep them to yourself.

As a marxist I take a materialist approach to things. I would see the basis of the Arab spring in the material conditions in these countries ... the increasing inability of the society to find employment for the youth, the increasing difficulty of the masses in being able to sustain themslelves .. obtain food etc.

Sam having been to Egypt ......I've seen at first hand the poverty of the people there.. so I don't under estimate that as a factor. However, this is not a new phenomen ...... why didn't it happen over the last 30 years.? Answer ..... the great powers were too busy fighting their proxy wars in Africa and Asia.

I'd be a right idiot to believe that the "Arab Spring" was all about a loaf of bread.



Others would have an idealist approach of various sorts. Some will tell you that it is all the doing of Islamic fundamentalists while others will assert that the hand of the US is behind everything.

You can include me in that motley crew Sam ...... my problem is .......I'm so impatient to see the Islamic fundamentalists stab the US in the back.

These guys believe in God.

Kev Bar
28-08-2012, 12:43 AM
All the media's lies explained in a single video.

Are they lying about Syria? You bet your life they are.

LIBYA: A Journalist tells the Truth & the lies explained - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8F5bYbU9-g&feature=related)


But by your own absolutist logic, Collon must be lying.


But.. what great new light is being shed here?

Politics is cynical

The first casualty of war is truth.


None of these "Springs" were home grown

So are you telling us that when in Tahrir, what the eagle eyed Flower saw as homegrown was really US hyroponics?

Or when looking for true romance, she was sold a Roma rose?

riposte
28-08-2012, 12:53 AM
But by your own absolutist logic, Collon must be lying.


But.. what great new light is being shed here?

Politics is cynical

The first casualty of war is truth.



So are you telling us that when in Tahrir, what the eagle eyed Flower saw as homegrown was really US hyroponics?

Or when looking for true romance, she was sold a Roma rose?

Far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of our host ...... but Tahrir turned out to be a lot different from the radical secular lie we were sold at the time ...... did you check out the election results?

Sam Lord
28-08-2012, 12:59 AM
@Riposte.

Any chance of telling us some of the lies about Syria?

Sam Lord
28-08-2012, 01:03 AM
Far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of our host ...... but Tahrir turned out to be a lot different from the radical secular lie we were sold at the time ...... did you check out the election results?

What does who won the election have to do with who occupied Tahrir?

And the Muslim Brotherhood were in Tahrir and played a significant role in defending the square. This was always known. It was not a secret to anyone observing. It was also known, however, that the Brotherhood only joined in after the uprising had been going on for some considerable time and were never at any stage in control of it.

riposte
28-08-2012, 01:08 AM
@Riposte.

Any chance of telling us some of the lies about Syria?

Can't do that Sam, next you'd be looking for proof.

riposte
28-08-2012, 01:10 AM
What does who won the election have to do with who occupied Tahrir?

And the Muslim Brotherhood were in Tahrir and played a significant role in defending the square. This was always known. It was not a secret to anyone observing. It was also known, however, that the Brotherhood only joined in after the uprising had been going on for some considerable time and were never at any stage in control of it.

You're moving the goal-posts again Sam.

Sam Lord
28-08-2012, 01:14 AM
Can't do that Sam, next you'd be looking for proof.

So it's all lies but you can't tell us what the lies are. We just have to take your word for it. :rolleyes:

And what is your problem with the Egyptian "spring". The gains for the people have been slow coming and small to date but there is no down side that one could point to. The position of US imperialism has been weakened there in my view as it has been in Tunisia and Libya. It's all good.

riposte
28-08-2012, 01:26 AM
So it's all lies but you can't tell us what the lies are. We just have to take your word for it. :rolleyes:

No Sam you don't have to take my word for it.

"Truth crushed to earth will rise again" William Cullen Bryant.




And what is your problem with the Egyptian "spring". The gains for the people have been slow coming and small to date but there is no down side that one could point to. The position of US imperialism has been weakened there in my view as it has been in Tunisia and Libya. It's all good.

So what happened to the people of Libya was all good.

The word "Good" must have a different meaning in your dictionary to mine.

Kev Bar
28-08-2012, 01:32 AM
Far be it from me to doubt the sincerity of our host ...... but Tahrir turned out to be a lot different from the radical secular lie we were sold at the time ...... did you check out the election results?

You are bouncing about the place.
.

Tahrir is not in any way denied by the election results.

It's hopes perhaps.

But not the reality.

Which was complex even then.

Check the coverage of people protecting other's praying.

Muslim bros defending protesters of their own accord.

The party slowly moving to catch up with some of the vangaurd.

Check the coverage warning of how the secular agigitators were rock n roll and dandy but lacked the reach and the machine of the BROS.

Check the coverage of the yanks panicing as their old order crumbled.

Check the coverage of the yanks reaching to the Cairo Bazaari BROS to reach a capitalist accord.

Check Israel in panic.

The geezer in your clip should also have thrown in that other old chesnut: nothing is ever simple.

The US/West far from being the architect was like a confused ambulance chaser.

Like a poker player wondering if Aces was still a winning hand.

Homegrown/Pruning on the hoof/random throwing of feriliser/ praying for rain/anyone for hydroponic and the threat of copious weedkiller.

All growing wild.

But Rip it up Riposte.

Then Sam will have to change his views when he sees a bourgeois navel gazing reactionary sharing some of his great insights:D

riposte
28-08-2012, 01:43 AM
Kev...... I'm as anxious as the next to see " yanks panicing as their old order crumbles"..... but there's an awful lot of wishful thinking going down here.

The lies told about all the wars that the US has been involved have all been gradually exposed from Vietnam right up to Iraq ...... When Hilary Clinton says something ... I know she is lying ..... it makes no difference who corroborates it.

These guys can't tell the truth to save their lives . period.

If the US is for it .... I'm against it.

Kev Bar
28-08-2012, 02:50 AM
Kev...... I'm as anxious as the next to see " yanks panicing as their old order crumbles"..... but there's an awful lot of wishful thinking going down here.

The lies told about all the wars that the US has been involved have all been gradually exposed from Vietnam right up to Iraq ...... When Hilary Clinton says something ... I know she is lying ..... it makes no difference who corroborates it.

These guys can't tell the truth to save their lives . period.

If the US is for it .... I'm against it.

Sounds very George W to me.

Kev Bar
31-08-2012, 01:10 AM
Fisk doing what he does:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-minister-for-information-who-wants-to-go-straight-8096841.html

Kev Bar
31-08-2012, 02:54 AM
And check this out.

Morsi calls on Iran to support Syrian rebels.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/30/egyptian-leader-iran-syrian-rebels

Count Bobulescu
31-08-2012, 08:28 PM
And check this out.

Morsi calls on Iran to support Syrian rebels.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/30/egyptian-leader-iran-syrian-rebels
Thats interesting, Morsi has everyone scratching their heads. He upset US/Israel by going to Tehran. Iran wanted him to join them in an anti Saudi pact. He might be doing something right.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/30/morsis_just_not_that_into_iran_0

Count Bobulescu
06-09-2012, 10:31 PM
More trouble in Syria.


Western spy agencies suspect the Syrian government has dispersed several hundred tons of chemical weapons and precursor components across as many as 20 sites across the country, heightening anxieties over the ability to secure the arsenals in the event of a complete breakdown of authority in the war-torn nation, U.S. and Middle Eastern officials say.

Officials are monitoring the sites, but the officials said there is growing fear that they have not identified every location and that some of the poisons could be stolen or used by Syrian troops against civilians.
The stockpile appears to be larger and more scattered than originally believed, according to two officials who have seen the intelligence reports. They said the most dangerous chemical stocks are kept in bunkers in about a half-dozen locations, while as many as 14 other facilities are used to store or manufacture components.
Because of the risks posed by the stockpile, U.S. intelligence agencies have devoted enormous resources to monitoring the facilities while they devise plans to safeguard them if the crisis worsens, current and former U.S. officials said.
Syria is believed to possess the worlds third-largest stockpile of chemical weapons after United States and Russia, whose Cold War arsenals are being dismantled and destroyed. Syrias weapons, predominantly deadly nerve agents that can be delivered by artillery rockets, shells and aircraft munitions, were developed for use in a war against Israel.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/worries-intensify-over-syrian-chemical-weapons/2012/09/06/13889aac-f841-11e1-8253-3f495ae70650_story.html?hpid=z1

riposte
06-09-2012, 11:46 PM
Can't be true...... if U.S. intelligence agencies said it.

C. Flower
07-09-2012, 05:47 PM
More trouble in Syria.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/worries-intensify-over-syrian-chemical-weapons/2012/09/06/13889aac-f841-11e1-8253-3f495ae70650_story.html?hpid=z1

Syria has moved chemical weapons to avoid having them fall into opposition hands. I'm not a supporter of Assad by any means, or of chemical weapons. It is cynical of Obama/the US to focus on the moving of these weapons, as they know quite well that they have been moved, and would have to be moved again, if they were stored in an area that might be overrun by forces unknown or shelled.

The US knows quite well that this is the case. So why are they pushing this point ?

Count Bobulescu
07-09-2012, 07:09 PM
Syria has moved chemical weapons to avoid having them fall into opposition hands. I'm not a supporter of Assad by any means, or of chemical weapons. It is cynical of Obama/the US to focus on the moving of these weapons, as they know quite well that they have been moved, and would have to be moved again, if they were stored in an area that might be overrun by forces unknown or shelled.

The US knows quite well that this is the case. So why are they pushing this point ?
I think the issue of concern is that when Assad finally goes, accounting for chemical weapons will be a priority, lest they fall into dangerous hands. That will likely be done by the west, and the US has announced that it now realizes that it does not have as good a handle on there locations as was previously believed, thus alerting for caution.

riposte
07-09-2012, 08:47 PM
I think the issue of concern is that when Assad finally goes, accounting for chemical weapons will be a priority, lest they fall into dangerous hands. .

They are already in dangerous hands .... the USA has them.

C. Flower
07-09-2012, 09:55 PM
I think the issue of concern is that when Assad finally goes, accounting for chemical weapons will be a priority, lest they fall into dangerous hands. That will likely be done by the west, and the US has announced that it now realizes that it does not have as good a handle on there locations as was previously believed, thus alerting for caution.

The sheer arrogance of "the west" is extraordinary.

I well remember the conferences not that long ago at which "the west" decided what was going to happen in Syria, and who should form a government.

The idea that Syria is a sovereign state in international law did not seem to come in to it.