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Holly
07-07-2011, 02:17 PM
This day in history 7 July 2005
Three English Muslims and a Jamaican Muslim detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession and a fourth aboard a double-decker bus later in Tavistock Square. Fifty-six people, including the bombers, were killed in the attacks, and about 700 were injured.
Many must have remembered the prophecy of Enoch Powell who warned about "rivers of blood" back in 1968 when he criticized Commonwealth immigration.

C. Flower
07-07-2011, 02:26 PM
This day in history 7 July 2005
Three English Muslims and a Jamaican Muslim detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession and a fourth aboard a double-decker bus later in Tavistock Square. Fifty-six people, including the bombers, were killed in the attacks, and about 700 were injured.
Many must have remembered the prophecy of Enoch Powell who warned about "rivers of blood" back in 1968 when he criticized Commonwealth immigration.

I don't get the impression that many did, as this is the first time in the five years that I've seen it referred to in this context. Many though may have given a few minutes thought to the fact that repeated invasions, theft of natural resources and bombings of middle eastern countries, might result in some backlash.

Other people question whether this attack was entirely unknown to the British authorities, before it happened.

By and large, Britain has been very successful as a country incorporating different racial and national groups and Powell's prophecy, in spite of this one violent incident, has so far proven to be a dud.

Griska
07-07-2011, 02:35 PM
Without meaning to downplay the awful events of that day, my friend came up with one of the funniest quips ever that morning.

We were in a hotel in Cork, desperately hung over having watched Nick Cave at The Marquee the night before.
All the way down in the car the day before the radio went on and on about how London had pipped Paris in the contest to host the Olympics.

I got a text and said to my friend, "****. Bombs in London".
Straight away, he said "Those French are really bad losers"!

Sorry if anybody is offended, but as it's a day in history thread, I thought I'd share how I experienced it.

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 03:19 PM
This day in history 7 July 2005
Three English Muslims and a Jamaican Muslim detonated four bombs, three on London Underground trains in quick succession and a fourth aboard a double-decker bus later in Tavistock Square. Fifty-six people, including the bombers, were killed in the attacks, and about 700 were injured.
Many must have remembered the prophecy of Enoch Powell who warned about "rivers of blood" back in 1968 when he criticized Commonwealth immigration.

It is a typically ridiculous juxtaposition on your part.

Powell was predicting racial wars (43 years later we are still waiting:rolleyes:)
whereas the London bombings were political acts.  

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 03:23 PM
I have a problem with the title of this thread btw.

It would be like a newspaper heading saying "Irish catholics kill 2 in London" after the Docklands bombing by the IRA.

It seems designed to incite hatred in my view.

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
I have a problem with the title of this thread btw.

It would be like a newspaper heading saying "Irish catholics kill 2 in London" after the Docklands bombing by the IRA.

It seems designed to incite hatred in my view.

[Thread title has accordingly been modded]

antiestablishmentarian
07-07-2011, 03:49 PM
The bombings were politically motivated, that much is clear. These men, from what I can gather, spanned a number of different racial groups, and the only thing uniting them was political belief, nothing to do with racism or a clash of cultures.

Cáthasaigh
07-07-2011, 07:50 PM
This day in history 7 July 2005
Three English Muslims and a Jamaican Muslim detonated four bombs,

....with a little help from their friends. The story of the bus and the way in which casualties were maximised is perhaps the most telling. Suicide bombers make the ultimate 'patsies'.

Andrew_t
07-07-2011, 07:55 PM
Irish Catholics kill 2 in London might have been offensive but as a headline after the Docklands murders it would have been accurate.

Holly
07-07-2011, 07:58 PM
The bombings were politically motivated, that much is clear. These men, from what I can gather, spanned a number of different racial groups, and the only thing uniting them was political belief, nothing to do with racism or a clash of cultures.

Three were English-born of Pakistani origin and one was a Jamaican immigrant. All were Muslims or, as Sam would say, "Islamists".
There is no doubt whatever that a clash with Taliban-style Islamic culture, now endemic in parts of England, was at the root of the terrorist bombs.

truth.ie
07-07-2011, 08:04 PM
Three were English-born of Pakistani origin and one was a Jamaican immigrant. All were Muslims or, as Sam would say, "Islamists".
There is no doubt whatever that a clash with Taliban-style Islamic culture, now endemic in parts of England, was at the root of the terrorist bombs.
Daily images at the time, of mutilated and murdered civilians in Blairs war on Iraq was at the root of the bombs. The bombers said as much in the "farewell video"
"You bomb our civilians, we'll bomb yours" was what one said.

antiestablishmentarian
07-07-2011, 08:05 PM
Was their motivation not that the UK was killing muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan? Surely that's more political than cultural? And where are there Taliban enclaves in Britain where a great cultural war is raging?

C. Flower
07-07-2011, 08:09 PM
Three were English-born of Pakistani origin and one was a Jamaican immigrant. All were Muslims or, as Sam would say, "Islamists".
There is no doubt whatever that a clash with Taliban-style Islamic culture, now endemic in parts of England, was at the root of the terrorist bombs.

All also were were male, and I'm sure had other factors in common.

They didn't do what they did because they were Moslems. Militant jihadism is a particular political stance, and very much a minority one, at that.

truth.ie
07-07-2011, 08:11 PM
Several members of the Irish community in Britain went quite extreme after Bloody Sunday.
What was happening in Iraq and Afghanistan circa 2005 was infinately worse than anything the Irish suffered.
I'm only surprised there wasn't a sustained campaign of bombings instead of the one-off.

Holly
07-07-2011, 08:11 PM
Was their motivation not that the UK was killing muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan? Surely that's more political than cultural? And where are there Taliban enclaves in Britain where a great cultural war is raging?

Militant Islam is both cultural and political. Most English Muslims have never lost their roots in Pakistan and their enclaves in English cities is testament to the failure of English immigration policy from the Commonwealth and the refusal of the Muslims to integrate.
This is common knowledge, A.

antiestablishmentarian
07-07-2011, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE]Most English Muslims have never lost their roots in Pakistan and their enclaves in English cities is testament to the failure of English immigration policy from the Commonwealth and the refusal of the Muslims to integrate.
Surveys generally show that British muslims are quite well integrated despite what the Torygraph and the BNP would have you believe.



This is common knowledge, A.
There's no such thing as common knowledge. It was 'common knowledge' for many people that cuts needed to be made to balance the budget, however if you did a little research you'd find most serious economists thought otherwise.

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 08:20 PM
Irish Catholics kill 2 in London might have been offensive but as a headline after the Docklands murders it would have been accurate.

I wouldn't agree.

Andrew_t
07-07-2011, 08:21 PM
They were Irish, they were Catholics, they killed two people, it was in London, which bit would you not agree with?

truth.ie
07-07-2011, 08:23 PM
They were Irish, they were Catholics, they killed two people, it was in London, which bit would you not agree with?
There were English communists, U.S citizens and Irish atheists jailed for IRA bombings during this period too.

Andrew_t
07-07-2011, 08:28 PM
I know that, but they did not carry out the Docklands bombing.

morticia
07-07-2011, 08:28 PM
Three were English-born of Pakistani origin and one was a Jamaican immigrant. All were Muslims or, as Sam would say, "Islamists".
There is no doubt whatever that a clash with Taliban-style Islamic culture, now endemic in parts of England, was at the root of the terrorist bombs.

I'm afraid that much of this was said in Britain at the time of the bombings (I lived there at the time). The Beeb ran a rash of commentaries/documentaries, both on Islamists and on Enoch Powell's predictions.

I have worked with many Muslims, both of English and eastern origin; all would tend to have agreed with the fact that islamist culture (not main stream muslim) was both at the root of terrorism, and had been allowed to take strong root in some places in the West prior to 911. London was referred to as "Londonistan" by some EU nations' secret services, they were so horrified that the like of Abu Hamza etc were allowed to roam free. Now, M15/6 were quick enough to round 'em up and corral them after 911, arguably far too late. There is an excellent book by a bloke called Ed Hussain (called the Islamist, i think), which details his own recruitment by Islamist groups and his eventual dissilusionment with them. The ways in which they ran rings around the authorities are well described.

The problem for the security forces is that there are so many to watch (perhaps 7% of the UK population are Muslim, concentrated in a few city centres, largely). They had watched one of the 7/7 bombers and decided that he was a second tier threat, took their eyes off the ball.

All those who say that UK foreign policy was idiotic are, of course, all entirely correct. Iraq = red rag to bull.

While I neither approve or condone anti-Muslim sentiment, I have to say that I'd also predict that UK city centres may become tinderboxes. The view of the white British benefit recipients/lowest paid is very trenchantly that the "Pakistanis"...yeah, we all know what term they'd actually use....even if the "immigrants" in question have been UK based for 3 generations.....are "taking their dole", and housing benefits, and council housing etc. They may have a point, in that the authorities are trying quite hard to placate minorities rather than sort the problem (more and better integrated education). Austerity will make all that far worse.

A UK social worker of my acquaintance has been quoted as saying that you often have a legit British Asian who may be disabled, or become disabled. The response is often to import Bangladeshi/Pakistani rellies illegally, but the social workers are pretty much ignoring this as it means the patient is being looked after and not at the maximum expense to the State, either. I can understand why this is being done, I have to say, unfortunately. Futhermore, some families are importing veiled brides from villages as British Asians are judged insufficiently virtuous (insufficiently malleable, more like). All of this is entrenching cultural differences and the sort of segregation we're used to in places like Belfast. Except it is one degree worse, as there's usually a visible identifiable racial difference that means different communities can identify each others' members visually. At least in the North, you'd usually need to start a conversation....

The plus is that the more educated, as ever, are tending to integrate better. But, shure, hasn't Cammy just closed the gates to the Unis... can't see that many British muslims having 9K per annum for that.

The gates of Hell are insecurely bolted.....

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 08:33 PM
They were Irish, they were Catholics, they killed two people, it was in London, which bit would you not agree with?

I do not know that they were catholics for a start and I'm not sure how you do.

But in any case to highlight something entirely incidental to the matter would not be my idea of accurate reporting.

Fraxinus
07-07-2011, 08:40 PM
I know that, but they did not carry out the Docklands bombing.

The point is their religion is irrelevant. If they were trying to instal the Catholic church as the established church by force in Britain then their religion would be relevant.

Holly
07-07-2011, 09:08 PM
....
The gates of Hell are insecurely bolted.....

You made a thoughtful post, morticia. Thanks.

morticia
07-07-2011, 09:10 PM
How is it we started debating Islamists across the water and ended up back on Irish issues again??

Not all problems originate here, or with the Church....

morticia
07-07-2011, 09:16 PM
You made a thoughtful post, morticia. Thanks.

It is unfortunate, but political correctness does not get to the root of all problems. Much as we wish that it would.

Those who have never lived in the UK would be unaware of the bubbling racism under even middle class facades. It's not something of which I approve, but one becomes forcibly aware of it after a few months.

I'm no fan of Enoch Powell, but give that system enough austerity and the race riots will be lethal. Don't forget that inflation there is 5% and the benefits, to my knowledge, aren't increasing at the same rate. Oh, and they only produce 60 odd percent of their own food needs, and the treatment of the farmers by the Big 4 supermarkets exacerbating that problem.

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 09:40 PM
All were Muslims or, as Sam would say, "Islamists".


It is not the same thing.

Sam Lord
07-07-2011, 09:46 PM
It is unfortunate, but political correctness does not get to the root of all problems. Much as we wish that it would.



And what in your view would get to the root of the problem of racism in Britain, to whatever extent it exists ...

Griska
07-07-2011, 09:58 PM
And what in your view would get to the root of the problem of racism in Britain, to whatever extent it exists ...

And that is the thing.
It is greatly exaggerated as an issue.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but the tinderbox argument is more to do with social deprivation than race.
There is a stigma about being labelled racist in Britain that I would welcome here.
Hopefully, it will happen in time.

Andrew_t
08-07-2011, 08:44 AM
True enough that they may not have been (practicing) Catholics. That they were Irish, and that that was the point of the hypothetical headline, is not in dispute.

Justin Casey
08-07-2011, 05:53 PM
Is this the thread for our favourite Enoch Powell stories? Oh good!

In August 1976, Eric Clapton [later CBE] performed at the Birmingham Odeon, just minutes away from where Powell made his “rivers of blood” speech at the Midland Hotel in 1968. Clapton’s performance included a racist rant. “Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? Wogs I mean… I think you should all leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country… I don’t want you here in the room or in my country… Listen to me, man, I think we should vote for Enoch Powell… I think Enoch’s right, I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white [the National Front slogan]. I used to be into dope, now I’m into racism – it’s much heavier, man… Britain is becoming overcrowded and Enoch will stop it and send them all back. The black wogs and coons and Arabs and fuckking Jamaicans… etc.”

Two years previously, in 1974, Clapton had one of the biggest hits of his career and his only US Number One with I Shot The Sheriff. This was a cover version (rip-off?) of a song by Jamaican musician Bob Marley. Jamaica is a British colony with a majority black population. And we know how the British created this colony, don’t we? (In fact much of Clapton’s career has been influenced by the style of African-American music known as “blues” including cover versions of Robert Johnson songs.)

The incident is like a metaphor for the attitudes of racist fools. Although I wouldn’t expect them to understand an abstract concept such as metaphor. Or irony.

morticia
08-07-2011, 08:33 PM
And that is the thing.
It is greatly exaggerated as an issue.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but the tinderbox argument is more to do with social deprivation than race.


On the first point, categorically not true. The situation is analogous to our banks in 2007-8...rumblings of unease, but no real issues you could put yer fingers on, yet...

On the second point, you are absolutely 300% correct. In my view, the class/wealth problem in the UK is far more pernicious than the racism problem. However, the problem is that the two go hand in hand and are multiplicative in nature.

Sam, the UK has an effectively segregated schooling system (by class, not race, entirely). The issue is that 10-15 years ago under Bliar's "if it moves, slap targets on it" regime, Ofsted (school inspection agency) was asked to publish its school ratings in the interest of public transparency.

Plan: poor schools could be shamed into improvements or have more work put in, good schools would be rewarded in terms of status... oh, and the mantra of parental choice...now therein lies the problem..

Reality: the minute the first ratings were issued, wealthy parents paid 80-200K more for a house in the right catchment area, the poor were shut out entirely and mostly stuck with failing schools. Since immigrant families tend to live in more disadvantaged areas, you can see where this might be going on the race relations front.

Then, of course, people copped on to the fact that parents of a more conservative nature had a better way of insisting that little Johnny and Belinda did their homework to the required standard (and didn't bring knives to school). So there was a mad rush towards church schooling, too. Amazing, the number of Damascene conversions as soon as people saw that little red/blue line on the tester stick.

Of course, as soon as the C of E and Catholic church decided to expand their educational facilities, the Muslims jumped on that particular bandwagon and asked for their own, Muslim schools. Reasonable enough, you might think, except that it makes it much easier for the less liberal imam to spread slightly incendiary messages, should they be so inclined. It also allowed some to keep their daughters very segregated, and permits entire communities to remain unmixed. Granted, I'm sure the majority are responsible, but BBC/C4 undercover cams have uncovered some vipers nests.

Typically enough, too, if the local secular comp happens to be more than 10% immigrant composition, the wealthier (usually white, occasionally Hindu or Chinese) parents decide to a) move house or b) stick little Johnny and Belinda into the mucho posho public school down the road. Expensive, yes, but not any more so than taking out an extra 100K mortgage to be in the right catchment...

Result; effective segregation at school level, which persists into adult life in the non-Uni educated. Oh, and now we have 9K Uni fees.

Yes, the problem is more class based than race, but that doesn't make it ANY less incendiary.

in my view, it's like Northern Ireland in the 1960's..... and it WILL blow as the austerity measures get tighter.

Solution: desegregate the schools and force secularism on all of them if necessary. However, because the C of E is a bastion of the State in the UK (an anachronism which doesn't benefit that church these days imho), there will be serious resistance.

Integrating schools has worked in the North, but there is ironically huge resistance to it, even there.

morticia
08-07-2011, 10:26 PM
The incident is like a metaphor for the attitudes of racist fools. Although I wouldn’t expect them to understand an abstract concept such as metaphor. Or irony.

I wonder why Clapton hasn't suffered more flak for that one? Was he made apologise? These days, that would be a career killer.

These issues need solutions, not abuse. Starting with the education system.

However, denying any problem exists is, as we know re the banks, not the best way to solve it.