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View Full Version : Eamon Gilmore's Lie on the Lisbon Referendum - Political Credibility Gone - Should Resign



C. Flower
01-06-2011, 10:59 AM
The US State Department cables being published this week by the Independent have revealed that Eamon Gilmore blatantly and deliberately lied about the second Lisbon Referendum.

While he repeatedly told the Daíl and the Press that he was opposed to a Second Referendum and to the Treaty, he quickly informed the US State Department that this was only for political expediency. He went on to support a Yes vote in the Second Referendum.

This lie goes beyond the norm of broken election promises and was an utterly cynical betrayal of the public and Labour party members.

The result of Lisbon 2 has been to consolidate central control of the EU by the dominant German and French states and to weaken the case of a referendum on the extraordinary measures being taken in the economic crisis.

Eamon Gilmore's lie to the public and his party members - and the fact that he felt more duty bound to be honest to the US State Department - in my opinion is a fundamental breach of trust. Labour Party members should demand that he stands down as party leader and Tanaíste and should conduct an internal party investigation into this matter.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/wikileaks/gilmore-took-opposing-views-in-public-and-in-private-2662663.html



After the No vote in the first Lisbon referendum in June 2008, the Labour leader said the "Lisbon Treaty is dead" and opposed a second referendum being held.

But Mr Gilmore presented a different scenario a month later to US embassy staff, according to then US Ambassador Thomas Foley.

Posture

"Gilmore, who has led calls against a second referendum, has told the embassy separately that he fully expects, and would support, holding a second referendum in 2009. He explained his public posture of opposition to a second referendum as 'politically necessary' for the time being," the Ambassador said in a 'confidential' dispatch sent to his colleagues in Washington and across the EU.

Of course, a year later, when the Government secured concessions on Lisbon, Mr Gilmore and Labour did back the second referendum.

ang
01-06-2011, 11:07 AM
This lie has cost this Country Billions.

The EU/ECB didn't start "the kicking" until they got the yes which is exactly why "we are where we are"

Had it been left at the NO they would not have been able to wield the axe so heavily.

Gilmore Must GO

Sam Lord
01-06-2011, 11:10 AM
His position is unsustainable in my view.

I wonder what the excuse will be .... all politicians lie to the public?

Seán Ryan
01-06-2011, 11:19 AM
I wouldn't expect too much to come of this.

Call me cynical, but I'd not believe a single word that came from Mr Gilmore's lips, ever. And I'd not expect any better from the majority of his comrades.

It's nice, I suppose, to have the US acknowledge that Gilmore and the rest of the scum, give them more respect and loyalty than those who stupidly elect them. But again, no surprise there.

As an anarchist, I don't vote. Sometimes folks confuse this stance with the idea that I might disrespect the right to vote. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just refuse to soil myself by supporting the idea that scum represents me.

C. Flower
01-06-2011, 11:23 AM
I've added a poll to this....... I never said that I wouldn't...;)

antiestablishmentarian
01-06-2011, 11:24 AM
I doubt anything will come of this. Perhaps an 'it was taken out of context' style excuse from Gilmore or whoever is wheeled out to defend him. It is an absolute disgrace though, and if Labour had an ounce of moral integrity, they'd demand his immediate resignation and perhaps lobby to leave government if he refuses to budge. I reckon this could have a strong effect on their younger grassroots members, especially Labour Youth, where many of the lads I know have a problem with Labour supporting various things like water charges and PS pay cuts to bail out bankers.

Seán Ryan
01-06-2011, 11:25 AM
I've added a poll to this....... I never said that I wouldn't...;)

Hah! You left out the choice where he should toss himself out a window from the top of an office block! "Jump you fu**er! Jump!"

DCon
01-06-2011, 11:27 AM
I have no doubt, none at all, that the champagne socialist Gilmore would be a FF member if he was cunning/clever or connected enough to weasel his way to the top of that party

Baron von Biffo
01-06-2011, 11:28 AM
If that's true then Gilmore's position is untenable. Has he made any public comment on it yet?

Apjp
01-06-2011, 11:28 AM
His position is unsustainable in my view.

I wonder what the excuse will be .... all politicians lie to the public?

Or twas of systemic importance to say yes or starve when told to do so.

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Ah Well
01-06-2011, 11:51 AM
Seems as good a time as any to recall what Gilmore said when he appeared on the RTE Six One News on 13th June 2008 following the No Vote in the Lisbon Treaty Referendum in Ireland and when interviewed by Brian Dobson.

I think the Lisbon Treaty is dead. The Lisbon Treaty to be ratified requires 27 Member States to ratify it. The Irish people have now decided in a Referendum that they do not wish to have it ratified therefore Ireland cannot ratify the Lisbon Treaty and therefore the Lisbon Treaty falls

When Brian Dobson suggested that Brian Cowen seemed to be holding out at least the possibility that it would be put again to the people as Lisbon 2, Eamon Gilmore then went on to state;

I don't think there's any question of this Treaty being put a second time to the people. This isn't like what happened at the Nice Referendum when there was a low turnout the first time round. The Government went back got some additional Declarations and there were some changes made to our own domestic Law about how we handle European Law and it was put on that basis and it went through on that basis. This was a good turnout of Electors. People have made a decision. The Lisbon Treaty cannot now be ratified. And I think that the decision that has been made by the Irish people has got to be respected by everybody. Got to be respected by the Taoiseach, by the Government, by the other Member States, by the political leadership in Brussels.

Eamon Gilmore went on to say subsequently during the interview that;

I think at this stage there is no point in us rerunning the Campaign. The fact of the matter is that a decision has now been made

and;

I certainly think that this particular proposal is now gone

Richardbouvet
01-06-2011, 12:43 PM
My view has been that Gilmore was heppy to see the end of Lisbon, but that he was pushed by a powerful pro-Brussels clique, including possibly Quinn and De Rossa, as well as the European Socialist parties, into backing a second referendum. I still tend to think that.

Holly
01-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Gilmore is a professional politician for whom words are never meant to be taken as having a fixed meaning. He is at the peak of his career now as the leader of a "socialist" party.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 01:04 PM
Isnt there a rule about representatives caught lying to the Oireachtas having to resign?

On the 18th June 2008 during first Lisbon referendum statements just after the Treaty had been rejected Eamon Gilmore stood in the Dail and said:

'The process of closer co-operation on vital global issues, which Lisbon was intended to advance, will not succeed unless the Irish vote is fully respected. Nor can Europe prosper unless it is fully committed to the principle of equality among member states. That is why there can be no question of going back to the people for a simple re-run of the Lisbon treaty. We must, instead, listen to the concerns of the Irish people and understand them.'

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2008-06-18.173.0&s=Lisbon+2008-06-18..2008-06-18#g199.0


According to the Indo report of the wikileaks cable Foley in the US Embassy was reporting home that Gilmore had said within weeks;

"But in that same week in July [of Sarkozy's visit to Dublin, four weeks later] Mr Gilmore was presenting a different view to the US Embassy.

Mr Foley wrote his cable on July 23 -- just two days after Mr Sarkozy met with the Yes and No campaigners in Dublin -- where he presents Mr Gilmore's expectation of a second referendum and his "politically necessary" opposition to a second vote.'http://www.independent.ie/national-news/wikileaks/gilmore-took-opposing-views-in-public-and-in-private-2662663.html

Doesn't this look like Eamon Gilmore stood and lied knowingly in the Oireachtas that a second vote was 'out of the question'?

This is beginning to look more like a resignation matter than I first thought.

Kid Ryder
01-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Isnt there a rule about representatives caught lying to the Oireachtas having to resign?

On the 18th June 2008 during first Lisbon referendum statements just after the Treaty had been rejected Eamon Gilmore stood in the Dail and said:

'The process of closer co-operation on vital global issues, which Lisbon was intended to advance, will not succeed unless the Irish vote is fully respected. Nor can Europe prosper unless it is fully committed to the principle of equality among member states. That is why there can be no question of going back to the people for a simple re-run of the Lisbon treaty. We must, instead, listen to the concerns of the Irish people and understand them.'

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2008-06-18.173.0&s=Lisbon+2008-06-18..2008-06-18#g199.0


According to the Indo report of the wikileaks cable Foley in the US Embassy was reporting home that Gilmore had said within weeks;

"But in that same week in July [of Sarkozy's visit to Dublin, four weeks later] Mr Gilmore was presenting a different view to the US Embassy.

Mr Foley wrote his cable on July 23 -- just two days after Mr Sarkozy met with the Yes and No campaigners in Dublin -- where he presents Mr Gilmore's expectation of a second referendum and his "politically necessary" opposition to a second vote.'http://www.independent.ie/national-news/wikileaks/gilmore-took-opposing-views-in-public-and-in-private-2662663.html

Doesn't this look like Eamon Gilmore stood and lied knowingly in the Oireachtas that a second vote was 'out of the question'?

This is beginning to look more like a resignation matter than I first thought.

Sure lying to the Oireachtas is far more important a matter than mere trivia like lying to the people...

Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Yep- on other sites its all concentrated about his public statements outside the Oireachtas where its all part of the political game.

But if Gilmore's statement INSIDE the Oireachtas is now known to have been a false one calculated to mislead the Oireachtas as to his opposition to a second referendum then he does have to resign.

That is standard for any politician caught lying to a Parliament.

Stendec
01-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Stendecs terrible disappointed in that man!!! :(:(:(

Andrew49
01-06-2011, 01:40 PM
His position is unsustainable in my view.

I wonder what the excuse will be .... all politicians lie to the public?

Gilmore's duplicity is just one of the signs that the Irish Labour Party has lost it's soul.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 01:48 PM
The new PDs/Greens.

It'll take a while for people to realise but the Labour Party leadership is no different to the Greens as minor partner in a coalition government. John Gormley becomes Eamon Gilmore and the whole game of gradual realisation begins anew.

All we're short now is a Constant Tweeter issuing breathless updates hinting that Labour may draw lines in the sand or 'might' find something hard to swallow and the whole political Dallas drama begins to take familiar shape.

Apjp
01-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Yep- on other sites its all concentrated about his public statements outside the Oireachtas where its all part of the political game.

But if Gilmore's statement INSIDE the Oireachtas is now known to have been a false one calculated to mislead the Oireachtas as to his opposition to a second referendum then he does have to resign.

That is standard for any politician caught lying to a Parliament.

Wondering should I email wor gerra on this 1? They did very well in court for people before, and we all stand2gain from gilmore resigning as it hastens labours race to the park.

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Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 01:52 PM
I think the distinction between lying to the public is one thing and the Oireachtas is another.

The first is to be expected but the second is regarded as a resignation matter. All it takes is a journalist to ask Mr Gilmore to whom he was lying in June/July between his statement on Lisbon on 18th June 2008 and the Sarkozy visit in July- Foley at the US Embassy or the Oireachtas?

antiestablishmentarian
01-06-2011, 01:59 PM
[QUOTE]The new PDs/Greens.

It'll take a while for people to realise but the Labour Party leadership is no different to the Greens as minor partner in a coalition government. John Gormley becomes Eamon Gilmore and the whole game of gradual realisation begins anew.

They were always going to be the mudguard to the blueshirt bicycle, but they're in a far stronger position than na Glasraí were last time out and could exert some pressure if they so wished to change decisions at cabinet. That they haven't and have rowed back on election promises already shows their true character. I remember marching against college fees in Dublin two years ago and hearing Ruairi Quinn do the Labour equivalent of an Ian Paisley when addressing the crowd- 'college fees will never be raised by Labour'. This weekend, he said on RTE radio that new fee hikes could be on the way. This is as serious imo as Gilmore's statement, as the USI told students to vote Labour based on the strength of their pre-election promises to reverse fees. And many students did for precisely that reason. Not that I was surprised but many who had illusions in Gilmore were and are shocked that they could lie- FF yes, who'd believe that shower, but Ruairi and Eamon? Weren't they different?


All we're short now is a Constant Tweeter issuing breathless updates hinting that Labour may draw lines in the sand or 'might' find something hard to swallow and the whole political Dallas drama begins to take familiar shape.We already have one, Tommy Broughan, albeit sans twitter. Someone just needs to direct him towards the tweet machine and he'll have completed the metamorphosis

antiestablishmentarian
01-06-2011, 02:01 PM
I think the distinction between lying to the public is one thing and the Oireachtas is another.

The first is to be expected but the second is regarded as a resignation matter. All it takes is a journalist to ask Mr Gilmore to whom he was lying in June/July between his statement on Lisbon on 18th June 2008 and the Sarkozy visit in July- Foley at the US Embassy or the Oireachtas?

Given his position as Foreign Affairs minister, neither option is particularly palatable :D

Ah Well
01-06-2011, 02:13 PM
Yep- on other sites its all concentrated about his public statements outside the Oireachtas where its all part of the political game.

But if Gilmore's statement INSIDE the Oireachtas is now known to have been a false one calculated to mislead the Oireachtas as to his opposition to a second referendum then he does have to resign.

That is standard for any politician caught lying to a Parliament.

Any chance of tracking down that particular provision in chapter and verse Capt C?

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/CodesofConduct/TDs/
http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/CodesofConduct/OfficeHolders/

Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 02:27 PM
Don't think you will find it in SIPO Ah Well. Lying to the people outside the chamber is perfectly acceptable but making false statements inside it is also unacceptable to parliaments. I believe it is part of the parliamentary privilege set-up and frowned upon by all parliamentarians. You can be evasive as much as you like but deliberate false statements are resignation jobs if you get caught.

Didn't Brian Lenihan Sr have to resign for something along those lines?

Captain Con O'Sullivan
01-06-2011, 02:31 PM
Although this section applies I think;


'2.2.2. Accountability to the Houses of the Oireachtas
Office holders, who are members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, are accountable to the Houses of the Oireachtas in accordance with the arrangements set out in the Constitution or in the Standing Orders of the respective Houses. It is of paramount importance that office holders give accurate and truthful information to the Houses of the Oireachtas, correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity.'

If the leader of the Labour Party stands up and states that the referendum result must be observed and it can be shown that he made that statement for optics rather than truthfully then he is in breach of SIPO as well as parliamentary practise.

Griska
01-06-2011, 02:31 PM
I've added a poll to this....... I never said that I wouldn't...;)

Will there be a second poll?

Griska
01-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Gilmore will not resign.

He'll either tell us that Wikileaks can't be trusted or remind us that we have "more pressing" issues to worry our little heads with.

I'd imagine Joan B is having a little giggle.

Apjp
01-06-2011, 02:50 PM
[quote=Captain Con O'Sullivan;150744]

They were always going to be the mudguard to the blueshirt bicycle, but they're in a far stronger position than na Glasraí were last time out and could exert some pressure if they so wished to change decisions at cabinet. That they haven't and have rowed back on election promises already shows their true character. I remember marching against college fees in Dublin two years ago and hearing Ruairi Quinn do the Labour equivalent of an Ian Paisley when addressing the crowd- 'college fees will never be raised by Labour'. This weekend, he said on RTE radio that new fee hikes could be on the way. This is as serious imo as Gilmore's statement, as the USI told students to vote Labour based on the strength of their pre-election promises to reverse fees. And many students did for precisely that reason. Not that I was surprised but many who had illusions in Gilmore were and are shocked that they could lie- FF yes, who'd believe that shower, but Ruairi and Eamon? Weren't they different?

We already have one, Tommy Broughan, albeit sans twitter. Someone just needs to direct him towards the tweet machine and he'll have completed the metamorphosis

Tommy voted against govt. 1 td we can trust as a future left ind.
Re lab. I have a mate who did same and must feel sick that fees will keep going up!my uncle voted them most prob cos of no property tax promises. People voted for understandably selfish real life reasons and dont really care about imf deal, shannon us flights etc. id expect the far left ula to break 20 seats next time out. To go from no seats to 5 was great for the left in general. I expect very few of the people I know that voted lab to do so anytime soon again. 2014 will be quite big. Meeting robin wilson this week to discuss autonomy ireland
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antiestablishmentarian
01-06-2011, 03:27 PM
Will be interesting to see how Labour come out and field this one- will they let it hang and hope it dies a death, with the aid of RTE (not a whimper on their news website or Aertel- nothing like a Labour Minster for Communications to concentrate minds in Montrose), or try and pre-empt any fallout by saying that it was taken out of context?

Seán Ryan
01-06-2011, 04:13 PM
From Gilmore's speech to the Dáil on 18th June 2008.


Blah blah blah...

It must be admitted that the result last week also reflects an erosion of confidence in politics. The people did not accept the advice of the main political parties. That erosion of confidence which is not unrelated to a decade of revelations at tribunals, must be of real concern. As political leaders, we must acknowledge that and seek a way forward. We must also learn the lessons from the campaign and the manner in which it was conducted, and the Labour Party will accept its share of responsibility in that regard.

As a result of the vote last week, Ireland is facing its biggest diplomatic challenge since the Second World War. Fifty years of foreign policy centred on the objective of putting Ireland at the heart of Europe, and the many patent accomplishments won on the back of that policy, are now at stake. How we respond and the leadership we offer will determine, perhaps for a generation, what it means to be Irish in Europe, and how the Union deals with the democratic verdict of the Irish people will speak volumes about the value placed on democracy and the status of smaller member states in a community of nations dedicated to peace and democracy.

The process of closer co-operation on vital global issues, which Lisbon was intended to advance, will not succeed unless the Irish vote is fully respected. Nor can Europe prosper unless it is fully committed to the principle of equality among member states. That is why there can be no question of going back to the people for a simple re-run of the Lisbon treaty. We must, instead, listen to the concerns of the Irish people and understand them.

Blah blah blah...

The Labour Party is disappointed with last Thursday’s result but we can look anybody in the eye today and tell them that we told them the truth about the Lisbon treaty, that we gave our honest opinion on its merits and that we did so in the best interests of Ireland and of the Irish people who we represent. We fully respect the right of citizens to make up their own minds and to decide on the treaty. That, after all, is what a referendum is about. That is why we have referenda, namely, so that citizens can exercise their sovereignty.http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/06/18/00008.asp


From his subsequent speech on 25th June 2008.


Blah blah blah...

As I have said consistently since the first results of the referendum became known, the people have spoken, and the result of the referendum must be fully respected. At the same time, as a result of that vote Ireland is confronted by our greatest diplomatic challenge since the Second World War. Since that time, Ireland has faced challenges on the international stage but none which had the potential to so profoundly affect our vital national interests. The gains of 50 years of patient diplomacy, which has sought to put Ireland at the heart of the European project, are now at stake.

Blah blah blah...

Let us be clear, however, about one thing. This is not just an Irish problem. It is also a European problem. Ireland is the only country to hold a popular vote on the Lisbon treaty. The people have spoken and their voice must be respected. It would be entirely wrong, inappropriate and counterproductive for the European Union to proceed on the basis of any settlement that does not fully respect the voice of the Irish people.

Blah blah blah...

I emphasise again that this is not just an Irish problem. The work must progress at home and abroad. We must seek to ascertain fully why it was that the Irish people rejected the treaty and we must also engage with our European partners on what options are available. There seems to be an assumption that has grown that Ireland will automatically move to a second referendum. I have made no such assumption. The people have spoken and there can be no question of putting the same package in front of them as before, with a request that they might think better of it a second time. That simply will not fly, nor should it.

Blah blah blah...

The reality which we must face up to is that the governance of the European Union for the foreseeable future will not be based on the Lisbon treaty but on the Nice treaty. We must address the issue of how that will be squared with the immediate requirements that are coming down the track. Some of the more immediate issues are, for example, the European Parliament elections next year and how they will be conducted and the composition of the European Commission. The Lisbon treaty would have deferred a decision on the latter until 2014 but ironically, the retention of the Nice treaty brings that date forward to 2009. There is a requirement under the Nice treaty that the Commission be reduced and we must determine how that is to be squared. No matter which way one looks at this — even those who are hoping for a renegotiation must admit — continuing on the basis of Nice is inevitable. We are talking about renegotiating not with one entity but with 26 other member states, which will take time, even if it were to happen. Therefore, in the short term, we must constructively address the issue of how the European Union continues on the basis of the Nice arrangements. Otherwise, we are de facto accepting either that there will be a two-speed Europe or another referendum and frankly, if we did have a second referendum, I do not believe the outcome would be any different. In that context, I share Deputy Creighton’s view as to where we might end up in terms of overall vote.

Blah blah blah...

The referendum was two weeks ago. It is over and we have a decision. It is time to stop re-running the argument. Let us stop talking about the “Yes” side and the “No” side. There can now be only one side and that is Ireland’s side. In that context, it is not sufficient for anybody to simply say this is a problem for the Government. Everybody, especially those who argued for the “No” vote, has a responsibility to find a solution, not just in terms of setting down demands but also of delivering support for whatever the perceived solution is and support for that which is beyond these shores. All of us through our respective linkages with other parties and our political groupings in Europe have a responsibility to help resolve this difficulty. Certainly, the Labour Party will play its part in doing that.

Blah blah blah...

The treaty cannot be ratified, which is clear. We should not go down the road of a second referendum, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. The renegotiation will take time. The reality is that we are stuck with Nice. We must turn our minds to how the continuing operation of the EU can be squared with Nice. The working assumption must be developing our proposals based on Nice rather than developing on the assumption that Lisbon will happen.

Blah blah blah...http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/06/25/00007.asp

Bolding and blah blah blahs by me.

An absolute and utter toe rag. He'll make a fine taoiseach some day...

Kid Ryder
01-06-2011, 05:17 PM
We already have one, Tommy Broughan, albeit sans twitter. Someone just needs to direct him towards the tweet machine and he'll have completed the metamorphosis

How many chins does Tommy have? I daresay he'll need to grow a few before he becomes the spit of ol' Tweety!

greengoose
01-06-2011, 05:41 PM
From Gilmore's speech to the Dáil on 18th June 2008.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/06/18/00008.asp


From his subsequent speech on 25th June 2008.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/06/25/00007.asp

Bolding and blah blah blahs by me.

An absolute and utter toe rag. He'll make a fine taoiseach some day...

Feck ya! I thought the blah, blah was part of the speech. Frankly it would have been the only credible part! ;)

Labour are a hypocritical disaster, even worse that the Greens it seems. Gilmore for Taoiseach indeed! Quinn is another self serving champagne socialist. These eejits will eventually make FF look good again.

Dr. FIVE
01-06-2011, 05:59 PM
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/handsblix/dlg.png

Has a nice ring to it.

TotalMayhem
01-06-2011, 08:05 PM
So Mr Gilmore is an opportunistic liar? Who would have thunk it?

DO'F
01-06-2011, 08:26 PM
http://thechatteringmagpie14.blogspot.com/2011/06/normal-0-false-false-false-en-ie-x-none.html - we will not be derailed.

Fing Fers
01-06-2011, 08:41 PM
Good man Eamon for sticking with the tradition of lying through your teeth for the sake of a couple of votes, FF would be proud of him. This Lab / FG Government could turn out to be worse than FF. How these people live like this I have no idea.

Legacy
01-06-2011, 09:01 PM
I am convinced that Eamon Gilmore is a political psychopath. He has all the hallmarks of one.


Psychopaths lie with ease; they do not have any moral scruples when it comes to character assassination, empty promises, shameless self-promotion, cutthroat tactics, and using any means to justify the end.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/210473-Ponerology-101-The-Political-Psychopath

Ah Well
02-06-2011, 02:34 AM
TÁNAISTE Eamon Gilmore pressed Irish ambassadors to help restore our economic sovereignty and stop the severe battering of the country’s reputation abroad.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfojgbojmhau/rss2/#ixzz1O4u3HMeQ

Hilarious .... not

Economic sovereignty is it Eamo? :mad:

And yet you do a weasel about turn, advocate a yes to Lisbon and now we're being screwed royally by our EU Colleagues with a penal bailout interest rate well above what the IMF are charging

Cretin ...

Ah Well
02-06-2011, 02:42 AM
These eejits will eventually make FF look good again.

Therein lies the sad truth

TotalMayhem
02-06-2011, 09:45 AM
A 'real' Labour Party would have no business with Fine Gael in government, none whatsoever. These characters are in it for the Mercs and perks and nothing else! When they're done, the political representation of workers' interests in Ireland will be diminished like the Green Party (and rightly so!) and FF will be back with a vengeance.

"Pencil Revolution", me @rse. As Bismarck once said: "Not through speeches and majority decisions will the great questions of the day be decided ... but by iron and blood."

Fing Fers
02-06-2011, 11:03 AM
Just wactching them all in the Dail on TG4, Eamons being asked questions, its a joke. The whole lot keep breaking into fits of laughter, no seriousness what so ever.

antiestablishmentarian
02-06-2011, 11:21 AM
Shades of the Willie fiasco last year when FF sat on the goverment benches and laughed at FG and Inda when they were trying to nail him. Kind of recalls the last passage of 'Animal Farm' to me.

Dr. FIVE
02-06-2011, 03:04 PM
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l213/handsblix/dec.png

LOL

DCon
03-06-2011, 09:33 AM
It wasn't a lie at all says the closet Fianna Failer


TÁNAISTE EAMON Gilmore has denied that he engaged in a “public posture” of opposition to the second Lisbon referendum when in fact he supported it.

Mr Gilmore said the second referendum involved a different proposition from the first referendum, and he insisted his position on the Lisbon Treaty was absolutely consistent.

He was responding yesterday to assertions in a leaked US diplomatic cable written by US ambassador Thomas Foley in July 2008 and sent to his colleagues in Washington and other EU member states.

Anti-Lisbon campaigner Declan Ganley said the leak exposed Mr Gilmore’s “two-faced” campaigning on the issue and said the Tánaiste should resign. Fianna Fáil called on him to make a statement on the issue to the Dáil.


In the cable released by WikiLeaks, Mr Foley states: “Gilmore, who has led calls against a second referendum, has told the embassy separately that he fully expects, and would support, holding a second referendum in 2009. He explained his public posture of opposition to a second referendum as ‘politically necessary’ for the time being”.

Asked yesterday if he was embarrassed by the WikiLeaks revelation of his views, he said the second Lisbon referendum was a “different proposition” from the first. “It was always the case that we could not put the same proposition a second time to the Irish people and of course the same proposition wasn’t put a second time to the Irish people. What was put to the Irish people in the second referendum was a different, if you like renegotiated proposition.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0602/1224298260141.html

Ah Well
03-06-2011, 09:47 AM
It wasn't a lie at all says the closet Fianna Failer





http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0602/1224298260141.html

He can try dress it up any way he wants ... fact is he did a complete u-turn following the defeat of the first Lisbon referendum, when he said the Treaty was dead

TotalMayhem
03-06-2011, 10:49 AM
It was always the case that we could not put the same proposition a second time to the Irish people and of course the same proposition wasn’t put a second time to the Irish people. What was put to the Irish people in the second referendum was a different, if you like renegotiated proposition.”

Why does it make me cringe when this [email protected][email protected] refers to the "Irish people", the nice folks who filled the missus' coffers with €550k...

Captain Con O'Sullivan
03-06-2011, 10:58 AM
Pure Fianna Failism. His statement in the Dail was along the same lines as Brian Cowen's 'the people have spoken'. The second attempt at a referendum was not available or announced I believe when he stood in the Dail and said what he did nor was it announced by the time of the Sarkozy visit some fourweeks later.

So by the time he was telling the Dail one thing and the American Ambassador of his 'political necessity' in lying to the Dail and the people the second referendum hadn't even been arranged.

He's lying now as well. At the time of the four week period June to July 2008 there wasn't even a second referendum on Lisbon announced.

Sam Lord
03-06-2011, 02:54 PM
Pure Fianna Failism. His statement in the Dail was along the same lines as Brian Cowen's 'the people have spoken'. The second attempt at a referendum was not available or announced I believe when he stood in the Dail and said what he did nor was it announced by the time of the Sarkozy visit some fourweeks later.

So by the time he was telling the Dail one thing and the American Ambassador of his 'political necessity' in lying to the Dail and the people the second referendum hadn't even been arranged.

He's lying now as well. At the time of the four week period June to July 2008 there wasn't even a second referendum on Lisbon announced.

Good point Captain.

There is also the small matter of:



He explained his public posture of opposition to a second referendum as 'politically necessary' for the time being," the Ambassador said ...


He is not telling the Ambassador that if the matter was renegotiated he would look at the new proposition and might support it being put to the electorate if it was substantially different. He is simply saying that his public position is not his real one and it is being put forward for political reasons. In other words that he is lying for political purposes.

He is indeed trying to cover up his original lies with more lies. It is absolutely scandalous.

disability student
03-06-2011, 04:26 PM
Gilmore would make any FF proud re his lies. I think his credibility is gone as far as i'm concerned. No matter any statement of his, which may come further is not to be trusted.

Anyway his statements in the future is to be treated as a pinch of salt. Nobody would take it at all as a matter of importance. You will have to remind yourself that he came from a Workers party then to Democracric left and finally Labour.

Here is a man with no fixed policies which would define or mark him out as Workers party or DL etc. He is a restless one (re 2 switches to a political party) and he is in all for himself nothing more or less NOT for the party itself.

DCon
05-06-2011, 09:19 AM
Pure Fianna Failism. His statement in the Dail was along the same lines as Brian Cowen's 'the people have spoken'. The second attempt at a referendum was not available or announced I believe when he stood in the Dail and said what he did nor was it announced by the time of the Sarkozy visit some fourweeks later.

So by the time he was telling the Dail one thing and the American Ambassador of his 'political necessity' in lying to the Dail and the people the second referendum hadn't even been arranged.

He's lying now as well. At the time of the four week period June to July 2008 there wasn't even a second referendum on Lisbon announced.

Gene Kerrigan agrees, in the Sindo tody.Very much calls a shovel a shovel.


But what has been revealed about Gilmore is shocking and his reputation was exploded by his own words. His efforts last week to claim he did nothing wrong dug him a deeper hole.


The Lisbon Treaty was defeated at a referendum in June 2008. Some Yes supporters were apoplectic at the result and openly began debating how they might subvert the will of the people. Not Eamon Gilmore.

He took a perfectly clear and admirable public position -- although he supported the treaty, he was respectful of the democratic will.

"It's a clear decision. It's a decision we respect and it's the end of the Lisbon Treaty. The speculation that there will be a second bite at it -- there won't be."

Gilmore continued in public, in the words of one of the secret cables, to lead "calls against a second referendum". In private, according to the cable, he told the embassy that "he fully expects, and would support, holding a second referendum in 2009".

As we all know, in October 2009, a second Lisbon Treaty referendum was successful. And the apparent reasonableness of people like Gilmore was a factor in that. He had respected the democratic decision of the people -- until he deemed the treaty "renegotiated" sufficiently to legitimise another referendum.

Last week, Eamon Gilmore used this argument in an attempt to explain away his words in the US Ambassador's cable.

It was true, he said, "that we could not put the same proposition a second time to the Irish people and of course the same proposition wasn't put a second time to the Irish people.

"What was put to the Irish people in the second referendum was a different, if you like renegotiated, proposition."

Now, some would say there was no real renegotiation. Lucinda Creighton, for instance, Gilmore's fellow minister and treaty supporter, said: "Nothing has changed in the Lisbon Treaty and it would be dishonest to suggest otherwise." But that's just her point of view.

Let's accept that Gilmore genuinely believed that the treaty was renegotiated. Let's accept that he was fully entitled to support a new referendum once he believed that the substance of the treaty was changed.

And by October 2009, 15 months after the first referendum, he might have genuinely believed that. But it was just 41 days after the first referendum that the US Ambassador reported that Gilmore "fully expects, and would support, holding a second referendum in 2009".

Just five days earlier, Gilmore had ostentatiously rejected a request to meet Nicholas Sarkozy when the French leader came to Dublin to talk about the treaty.

"That debate is over and the referendum has delivered a result", Gilmore said. (He later met Sarkozy, after promising to deliver some "straight talking". Eamon is big on "straight talking".)

What occurred between the rejection of the Treaty on 12 June, 2008 and his soiree with US diplomats in July 2008 that might have converted Mr Gilmore to support a rerun? Nothing at all. There was no "renegotiation", real or otherwise.


From now until the day he leaves office, anything Eamon Gilmore says can be legitimately discredited with a single sentence: "Ah, yes, Minister, but is that what you're telling the American Embassy?"

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-gilmore-hasnt-a-shred-of-credibility-left-2666664.html

TotalMayhem
05-06-2011, 11:38 AM
His efforts last week to claim he did nothing wrong dug him a deeper hole.

The law of the hole is universal. ;)

Ah Well
05-06-2011, 01:19 PM
The law of the hole is universal. ;)

Particularly if it's a black hole

Will Eamo be sucked into it :)

C. Flower
05-06-2011, 03:49 PM
"But what did you say to the State Department, Eamon ?"

Rumours of a Labour Party potential heave abound. Any news on this ?

antiestablishmentarian
05-06-2011, 04:33 PM
First I've heard of it. Perhaps we could do with another 'heave' thread.

Dr. FIVE
05-06-2011, 06:45 PM
I think you've made one already AntiE

Griska
05-06-2011, 07:07 PM
"But what did you say to the State Department, Eamon ?"

Rumours of a Labour Party potential heave abound. Any news on this ?

Sarah McInerney and Stephen O'Brien in the Sunday Times:

Some (TDs) have even talked about the possibility of creating a separate group within the party-akin to the 1922 Committee in Britain's Conservative Party-to channel backbench concerns.

Not quite a heave, but significant nonetheless.
If this were to come to pass, Gilmore would be finished.

DCon
06-06-2011, 11:46 PM
A Senator in the U.S. has managed to out-lie Gilmore. Literally caught with his pants dow, this bloke


Saying he has not been honest with his family and constituents, Rep. Anthony Weiner today admitted that he exchanged graphic photos with six women over Twitter and Facebook, but said he will not resign, even as Democratic leaders called for an ethics investigation.

"I have not been honest with myself," a tearful Weiner said today, adding that it was a "hugely regrettable mistake."

The New York Democrat said some of the relationships dated back three years and that he generally met the women on Facebook. He added that he did not have a physical relationship with any of the women and that he mistakenly treated it as a "frivolous" thing.

"[I] have engaged in several inappropriate conversations ... with women I have met online," he said. "[I'm] deeply ashamed of my terrible judgment and actions. ... This was a very dumb thing to do."


Weiner called the news conference, but before he took the stage, the man who broke the story, conservative blogger Andrew Breitbart, got there first and took the mic himself.

Breitbart first said he was there to watch himself be vindicated, but then took to the podium and criticized Weiner for claiming that his Twitter and Facebook accounts had been hacked, and the media for its coverage of the story.

"This is a legitimate story," he said from the same podium from where Weiner was set to speak. There "is a continual attempt to blame the messenger."

Breitbart today got the apology he was demanding from Weiner, who also apologized to the media for lying.

Earlier today, Breitbart posted a shirtless photo of Weiner that the congressman allegedly sent to another woman. Though the picture only shows half the subject's face, the chin, chin and nose all resemble Weiner's.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/anthony-weiner-york-democrat-admits-internet-affairs/story?id=13775137

kerdasi amaq
07-06-2011, 12:16 AM
I knew he was faking it at the time.

He was probably hoping to draw anti-Lisbon voters to the Labour party.

TotalMayhem
07-06-2011, 12:34 AM
A Senator in the U.S. has managed to out-lie Gilmore. Literally caught with his pants dow, this bloke

The year is 2011, right? :D

I just read "Asquith's letters to Venetia Stanley", I wonder what would have happened to the good Prime Minister if they would have had Twitter and Facebook a hundred years ago. :D

P.S. this is quite off topic and might deserve a thread of its own.

Sam Lord
07-06-2011, 12:45 AM
A Senator in the U.S. has managed to out-lie Gilmore. Literally caught with his pants dow, this bloke




Unfortunate name ....

jimmymalone
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Is Eamon Gilmore a KGB defector now working for the CIA??

PaddyJoe
11-07-2011, 01:07 AM
Gene Kerrigan returns to this today:

THERE has been a new twist in the controversy involving Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore and the apparent conflict between what he said in private and what he said in public. While the matter remains unresolved, the possibility has been raised that Mr Gilmore was wronged, and that the event widely remarked upon (in this newspaper and elsewhere) never took place.

Or, perhaps it did. In which case, the controversy is verging into Twilight Zone territory.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/did-he-or-did-he-not-gilmore-dispute-enters-twilight-zone-2817724.html

Griska
11-07-2011, 01:52 AM
Gene Kerrigan returns to this today:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/did-he-or-did-he-not-gilmore-dispute-enters-twilight-zone-2817724.html

That's interesting PaddyJoe.
But serves only to muddy the waters, really.
Obfuscation. It hasn't gone away, you know!

Sam Lord
11-07-2011, 01:52 AM
Gene Kerrigan returns to this today:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/did-he-or-did-he-not-gilmore-dispute-enters-twilight-zone-2817724.html

So here is what happened. They lied to one of Staggs constituents hoping to appease him/her and thinking that the matter would go no further. Unfortunately for them the constituent sent the letter to Kerrigan. Now the mess is even messier.

Griska
11-07-2011, 01:57 AM
So here is what happened. They lied to one of Staggs constituents hoping to appease him/her and thinking that the matter would go no further. Unfortunately for them the constituent sent the letter to Kerrigan. Now the mess is even messier.

Dear me Sam.
Same point at the same time.
Us middle aged, middle class, failed hacks have mastered synchronicity.
(That's a Police album, for you crazy young 'uns who don't know):eek:

C. Flower
10-10-2011, 05:11 PM
Good journalism by Kerrigan. I will be blunt about it and say that it appears that Gilmore and/or Stagg are in probability lying when they say that Gilmore refuted it in the Dail. Kerrigan offers Gilmore a way of putting his claim that he didn't say it on solid ground. I haven't heard anything about that happening.

Anyway, back to business.

Gilmore now says we should not have another Referendum.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-no-appetite-for-another-lisbon-referendum-523823.html

So when is it going to be ?

disability student
10-10-2011, 05:53 PM
Good journalism by Kerrigan. I will be blunt about it and say that it appears that Gilmore and/or Stagg are in probability lying when they say that Gilmore refuted it in the Dail. Kerrigan offers Gilmore a way of putting his claim that he didn't say it on solid ground. I haven't heard anything about that happening.

Anyway, back to business.

Gilmore now says we should not have another Referendum.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-no-appetite-for-another-lisbon-referendum-523823.html

So when is it going to be ?

He knows that it's highly likely that referendum would be rejected as the electorate felt betrayed by Lisbon mark I and II. Inda Kenny had stated this tin EU meeting.:rolleyes:

ang
10-10-2011, 10:03 PM
Good journalism by Kerrigan. I will be blunt about it and say that it appears that Gilmore and/or Stagg are in probability lying when they say that Gilmore refuted it in the Dail. Kerrigan offers Gilmore a way of putting his claim that he didn't say it on solid ground. I haven't heard anything about that happening.

Anyway, back to business.

Gilmore now says we should not have another Referendum.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-no-appetite-for-another-lisbon-referendum-523823.html

So when is it going to be ?

Enda has joined the queue and is meeting Barrosso for discussions on the debt crisis on Thursday:-


The Taoiseach is to hold a special meeting with the president of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso on Thursday to discuss the Eurozone debt crisis.

It comes after the government said it would oppose any efforts by EU leaders to change the Lisbon treaty - a move which would trigger another referendum in Ireland.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-and-barroso-to-meet-on-debt-crisis-523850.html#ixzz1aPnGalPm

concernedparent
10-10-2011, 10:07 PM
What is worrying the government appropos another referendum is they know that they would have an impossible job selling it to the people.

Lisbon II was sold on the basis of safeguarding jobs and look where we are now.

Ah Well
10-10-2011, 11:13 PM
What is worrying the government appropos another referendum is they know that they would have an impossible job selling it to the people.

Lisbon II was sold on the basis of safeguarding jobs and look where we are now.

That rules 'em out rehashing the old posters so to save costs in these times

New slogan - Vote Yes and Often :rolleyes: