Real Democracy Now - Spanish and Irish Protests in Ireland Against Banks and Politicians

[C. Flower]

I've opened a subforum for this new Spanish/Irish group which seems to have started very spontaneously to support the Madrid "campo" before the Spanish General Election.

The group is meeting regularly in Dublin and Cork and increasingly Irish people have joined in.

It has at the moment an "anti-politician" character at the same time as clearly being a political response. I will be interested to see if left parties will support the movement, and respect it's wish at this stage to exclude party political banners.

Perhaps this group will provide the "missing umbrella" under which people can come together to oppose the banks bailout and IMF/EU deal.


Minutes of the latest meeting -

Summary of Meeting 25th June 2011


1. We read the minutes from the last meeting
2. We created the following groups for a better information and the link of the person who will be the contact link. People can join any group where they believe they can fit in or they can help. The name on the list will be the person where we can contact to.
2. Groups and the contact names
Catherine Shangenesy is the contact person for the group who has a link with the True Democracy movements inside Ireland
Manuel Pombo is the contact person for the group who has a link with the True Democracy movements around Europe.
Sara Escudero is the contact person for the group who has a link with the True Democracy movements in Spain.
Paco Torres is the contact person for the creative group
Jesús García and Antonio Toral (Antonio O´Tralará in facebook) are the contact person for the Media Group
Federico Gonzalez y Manuel Pombo are the contact person for the Translation Group
Shane O´Curry and Mark Hoskins are the contact person for the Theorical Group ( ideas´s collector)
Vanessa O´Sullivan and Alvaro Irlanda are the contact person for the Protest Preparation Group


We also agreed that Laura Fitzgerald and Vanessa O´Sullivan will be the person in contact with the political organisations and parties.
The groups will be as simple as possible and we still must agreed a general coordinator group in the next assembly.


4. Protest.

Other cities are organising one on Sunday and some members suggested the idea of a change of the day. We decided to stick on Saturday as we already sent the even in Facebook to so many people.


During the protest we will give leaflets with the english version of the True Democracy Now manifesto. We will discuss to adjust the manifesto or not in futher meetings.


Some member proposed to change the name of the protest to something like an open meeting: Democracy take the streets.


A lot of members emphasised with the idea of not being involved with any political parties as this movement is a anti politician as they don't represent us and no involvement with any political is the main idea of the movement. Some members believe that if we had found values and beliefs in common we should stick to it. If we keep united we will be more powerful.


5. Agenda: Need to do and Actions Points


The next workshop will be on Friday at 7pm and also on Saturday at 11am to make the banners.
Vanessa O´sullivan will print leaflets of the english version of the True democracy manifesto
Mariche Navío will design the leaflet and she will send it to Vanessa O´sullivan to print
The cost of that it was 20e and everybody apported something
We discussed different ways to collect money. Some people prefered to put some ourselves and others were suggesting to use a box in the protest and people can feel free to give some donations.
We decided to ask for names and emails to person who will assist to the protest on Saturday
Vanessa O´Sullivan get a better sound system for the protest.
Everyone will bring some cardboard and markers to people be free to write something and use them in the protest so they can feel involved.
Everyone will try to get spoons and pots to use it in the protest and express our outrage
We created a 4 basic rules in the protest that we will follow and we will try to everyone follow

No political banners
No flags
No Violence
No alcohol/drug use

We will sort it out the slogan during the week in Facebook and on the workshops on Friday. There is some websites about slogan that some members posted on Facebook to get some ideas.
Everyone should bring as materials as we can such as spray cans, cardboard, markers, etc.
Even we don't need a Garda permit, we will send them an email to make sure we will not have any issues and to let them know.
The protest preparation group decided to use some steward in the protest ( a steward is a person who helps to supervise the event). We decided that the steward should be visual but invisible and all of us we will take the responsibility to face with something that is going wrong).
It is a open meeting and everybody in the protest is free to take the speakers and talk, but we can supervise the time to let everybody have a time to also speak.
We need 1 moderator and 5 deputies in the protest for that. Some member suggested to be the steward the moderator and we can keep it as simple as we can.



6. Suggestions


Some member suggested to use the protest as an assembly to organice ourselves instead of facebook as can be very fast.


Some people suggested to meet twice a week ( Tuesday as Wednesdays as Seomra let us a place) and keep in touch by internet of what we talk in the meetings.
Other members proposed to swap the Tuesday and Wednesday and then everybody wil be able to come at least once every two weeks.


We agreed that the next meeting will be on a Tuesday 5th June at 7pm in Seomra and it will be written on the leaflets.


We also recommend everyone to check Facebook often for a way to communicate with each other.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_222829654395291

[antiestablishmentarian]

It seems left groups are already involved in this.

[Apjp]

It seems left groups are already involved in this.

They are. a girl called vanessa who ive seen at all the enough meetings is very involved in the swp i think, as well as numerous non party campaigns. in any event i dont see the ula hijacking this but via the Enough campaign they are promising much needed resources which is to be welcomed in my view. with respect cass, i think after portugal and greece and holland and france, germany and finland have all marched consistently in the last week for similar reasons, this should be a european democratic revolutionary thread. its so much bigger than ireland or spain. also, hows the blog going as re. a retweet etc. other groups at tuesdays meeting included the anti war movement and WSM-the biggest irish anarchist movement if memory serves correctly. The guy from the WSM, marcus something or other, had a lot to contribute in terms of experience on organizing things which was handy as on tuesday it boiled over on things based on some italians and spaniards thinking we must focus on Ireland and others determined to link back to 15m in spain. one guy even spent ages talking hysterically about a PR campaign and the need to set off hoax devices in dublin to keep the movement alive for 'marketing' reasons. Thankfully I think most of his advice was ignored. I agreed with the Italians-we need to realize we are in Ireland and that only we, the Irish people, can change this country. Also, I proposed that we include in what the group hopes to design when there are enough members(perhaps this saturday at the outdoor assembly/commission styled protest by the spire, weather permitting) was that we need a NATIONWIDE manifesto. There was also one very sound greek chap there so a good mix of Irish, spanish, italian and greek were present.

Arguably this should include some of the spanish manifesto, but I think we should follow portugals and Englands examples and draw up our own completely whilst drawing on the popular global movement that is present atm in Chile, Burma, the Arab nations, Europe, and other countries like Serbia(just outside the EU) too I think. I made the point we need to get enough people to camp out like the Icelandics did, only it would be under our public buildings like the GPO, Customs house etc. and we need to link Ireland, Iceland and Spain via a mortgage strike-which again I argued should be in any upcoming manifesto. However so many ideas are floating around and its so rapidly growing that it differs everyday. I couldnt make last night as confused the location, but the location for the next meeting is Seomra Spraoi, near mountjoy sq./gardiner st. Friday at 7pm I think. and there will be another meeting, I think in the same location, at 11am to prepare slogans, banners etc for the protest on Saturday which is again at the spire 2-5, which I will stay for the full 3 hours this time as the democratic structure it will take is unprecedented in this country, weather permitting of course. We are talking open assemblies, so many minutes on the open mic for everyone who has something to say within the 3 hours, possibly suggestion boxes, and commissions on various issues, which I am not sure how they work at present but I think its one commission per issue. I will be asking for meetings to be held besides the planned ones on Tuesdays and Wednesdays as I will have evening classes for those evenings the whole summer after june 7th and 15th respectively. I hope we can meet Mondays and Wednesdays or Tuesdays and Thursdays instead. I will also be 90 mins from Paris for mon sejour in September and 2 hours from northern switzerland and southwestern germany, so perhaps I can help re. linking up and get involved in the french/swiss/southern german movements from that point onwards.

Some people have said europe has had its biggest awakening in 43 years and thats why the international media from athens to abbey st. refuse to report it. But we have technology on our side which makes us more likely to succeed, if we use that tool effectively. De gaulle thought the game was up in 68 and he had left france by helicopter. However, as in 68 and 36 all of these movements have inherently left wing positions without all being socialist. participative democracy is inherently left wing as pro self governance involves a certain degree of 'workers democracy' rather than bourgois democracy. some people, in fact numerous ones amongst us, are emphasising the need for greater things as the system is the problem-ie a new economic model. However it is not a socialist revolution yet, and whether peoples democracy is the final aim of the movement, as well as an end to austerity, or whether we will all see the need to propose an alternative system, remains to be seen. One can be sure though that the CIA and Washington is watching this very closely. any remotely left wing govts, even peoples democratic ones, will not be long overthrown in their view, going forward of course. and they have great form for counter revolutionary activities as 4'000 cuban civilians, thousands of chilians, hondurans etc. since 1970 unfortunately found out.

Ultimately its a european revolution and the IMF visit seems to be our target for that 10 day period in July, culminating on the 16th. the spanish worked towards may 15th for four months. we have less than 3 to prepare. So, could we change the thread to a european revolutionary one akin to the very good arab one on this? Also i dont understand why people say we havent a square. parnell square is very symbolic re. freedom. q is how many would it hold?

[antiestablishmentarian]

They are. a girl called vanessa who ive seen at all the enough meetings is very involved in the swp i think, as well as numerous non party campaigns. in any event i dont see the ula hijacking this but via the Enough campaign they are promising much needed resources which is to be welcomed in my view.

SWP... ah jaysus. They'd want to watch out if that's the case. No disrespect meant, but the SWP have a tendency to hijack anything they get involved in and this would be no different.

[C. Flower]

SWP... ah jaysus. They'd want to watch out if that's the case. No disrespect meant, but the SWP have a tendency to hijack anything they get involved in and this would be no different.

They would want to watch out, but if everyone backs off everything the SWP goes near, nothing will ever come to anything.

At this stage, this seems to be an open process and anyone who fears that it will be railroaded down a dead end of empty activity and sloganising can get involved and put up their own proposals.

Last week's protest was almost exclusively Spanish: Richard Boyd Barrett spoke, amongst other people, but I'm quite sure anyone else would have been welcome to.

[Apjp]

SWP... ah jaysus. They'd want to watch out if that's the case. No disrespect meant, but the SWP have a tendency to hijack anything they get involved in and this would be no different.

yeah im not their biggest fan anti. ive always had the feeling they were a little like this, not to mention the fact that only full on trots are welcome it would seem in that party. I spoke to a few members recently and they laughed at when I said we could rule ourselves by referenda. too many people in that party obsessed with central committees via Leninism if ye ask me. So really they contradict themselves-trots who propose workers democracy and then they revert to leninism when peoples democracy is proposed. Theyve their heads in the clouds sometimes. I must read negris books over the summer and see what this autonomism 'detente, detente' lark is about. Unlike most communists I've known I dont revere any one theorist but rather I take the good and the bad from each one, even Stalin to a small extent. Thats weird I know.

[Apjp]

They would want to watch out, but if everyone backs off everything the SWP goes near, nothing will ever come to anything.

At this stage, this seems to be an open process and anyone who fears that it will be railroaded down a dead end of empty activity and sloganising can get involved and put up their own proposals.

Last week's protest was almost exclusively Spanish: Richard Boyd Barrett spoke, amongst other people, but I'm quite sure anyone else would have been welcome to.

I invited pearse doherty and peadar toibin again this weekend as well as mings page and mick wallace. be interesting to see if only a ULA politician turns up again. I certainly wont stand idly by either and watch the SWP hijack anything. However they are very small compared to other left parties like SF and we may have bigger worries re. Hijacking. one wonders how long before gerry et al turn up.

[C. Flower]

yeah im not their biggest fan anti. ive always had the feeling they were a little like this, not to mention the fact that only full on trots are welcome it would seem in that party. I spoke to a few members recently and they laughed at when I said we could rule ourselves by referenda. too many people in that party obsessed with central committees via Leninism if ye ask me. So really they contradict themselves-trots who propose workers democracy and then they revert to leninism when peoples democracy is proposed. Theyve their heads in the clouds sometimes. I must read negris books over the summer and see what this autonomism 'detente, detente' lark is about. Unlike most communists I've known I dont revere any one theorist but rather I take the good and the bad from each one, even Stalin to a small extent. Thats weird I know.

I think that the fact that there are now very extensive populations of people who are highly educated - and that there is far more potential for processes of mass decision making, both face to face and electronically, means that government can be very different from anything possible in Russia in the 1910s.
However, there will always be a need at times for decisions to be taken very quickly, by a small number of people who we delegate to make those decisions.

[C. Flower]

This group is burning a white heat on Face Book - never seen anything like it.




This is the press realase guys
Demonstrations organised in Dublin and Cork to show solidarity with Spanish protestors.

A demonstration to express solidarity with the Spanish protests will take place in Dublin and Cork on Saturday, 28th May.

The protest has been called by members of Ireland’s Spanish community and by local people who support the ongoing protests in Spain.

The demonstrations will take place this Saturday in the following cities:

- Dublin at 2pm at the Spire, O’Connell Street
- Cork at 2pm at Gran Parade

Growing numbers of Spaniards have been taking to the streets over the last three weeks demanding a real choice in the forthcoming elections. Frustrated by a steadily rising unemployment rate, economic stagnation and corrupt politicians with a two-party state that offers little political choice, old and young Spaniards have been protesting in central plazas and thoroughfares the length and breadth of Spain.

Taking the Arab revolts as their inspiration the peaceful demonstrations have a distinctive grassroots feel and have been organised via social networking and word-of-mouth.

Our rules for the protest are 4 simple ones:
1. No Political Parties Bans
2. No Flags
3. No alcohol/Drug Use
4. No Violence

An international call for solidarity and support has been made through social networking sites, blogs and twitter, and already protests have been organised in more than 100 international cities around the world, including Cork and Dublin.

for further information contact:

Dublin: Jesus Garcia on 085 2755995 or Leticia Ortega 0872399654
Cork: Borja Sanz 087 9546451

Notes:

• Up to date information on the Spanish Protests can be accessed on twitter at #SpanishRevolution
• Spains unemployment rate sits above 20% and is the highest of any industrial nation. It disproportionately affects young people, with 40% of under 30s unemployed in some cities.

• Two political parties dominate Spanish parliament the social-democratic PSOE and the conservative PP.

• Facebook event pages have been set up for the Dublin and Cork Demostrations.

Dublin: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=100502930043468&notif_t=event_wall#wall_posts
Cork: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=211967275501008Protest: for a true democracy now!
Location: O´connell Street ( at the spire) Dublin
Time: ‎2:00PM Saturday, May 28th

[ang]

Spanish protesters are currently being shot at by police after violent eviction from square in Barcelona.

[ang]

This is the start of the violent eviction no footage as yet of the rubber bullets:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Geg_6Xoy04s


Leil-Zahra Mortada
People en #Barcelona are entering the square after violent eviction. Police hysterically firing rubber bullets.

[Dr. FIVE]

This is rough.

edit: watch at 54seconds, jesus christ

http://www.20minutos.tv/video/bmuvFKLO-brutalidad-en-la-plaza-de-cataluna/0/

Meanwhile at home Garda Dean Foley just got to walk free (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0527/foleyd.html) as he was likely to suffer more in prison.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Still think that non-violence is the answer?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Sooner or later it is going to dawn on protestors that the way to deal with violent police in heavy rubberised gear is a flamethrower.

Not advocating it naturally as that would be against the rules of the forum but a copper with his riot gear on fire isn't going to follow orders. The anarchists will twig that one sooner or later.

Police on horseback aren't used so much now because rioters copped that you can't train a horse to ignore laserlights flicking across their eyes- the horse is likely to panic and throw its rider and the last thing a cop on horseback wants to happen is to be suddenly on his back on the street surrounded by rioters.

Won't be long before all this turns incredibly nasty. I note none of those spanish cops were wearing any kind of ID either.

So in that case they are not authorised police but a gang using weapons and to my mind that releases anyone from any civil obligation toward them.

[Frankie Lee]

Is there anything unlawful about bringing hurls and sliothars onto protests and have an auld puck around on O'Connell street. Might serve as a good deterrent against violence.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I still think demos like this are useful only these days as a distraction and to soak up policing attention.

If it really kicks off you wouldn't find me near anything like that. Flashmobbing should be used to run police resources all over the city. Static demos are easy to police. I notice that the students in London have copped to that and were able to use diversionary tactics on the police.

A number of three or four person teams could have a police team alerted to one area only to have them rediverted to another area and so on and on all day and all night if it was properly organised.

All the cops rely on a central communications center and feeding false info and alerts into that would be good fun and to run some fat off their arses as well.

[Dr. FIVE]

Just think how difficult it would be for them. With only the one cup of tea and all.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The entire concept of riot policing is based on centralised communications, depends on the crowd being in one easily managed area and being confined to that area.

One large crowd with ten small teams to do flash mobbing at angles away from the main demonstration with panicky calls coming into the comms centre would cause a lot of confusion and have the Gardai in a town like Dublin at sixes and sevens fairly quickly.

In a way it would be like the main demo pinning down the majority of police instead of the other way around. A way of kettling the police. You wouldn't even need a lot of organisation because false calls into the police on crowds forming elsewhere would have them running around as well.

No one need get hurt either.

[Apjp]

The entire concept of riot policing is based on centralised communications, depends on the crowd being in one easily managed area and being confined to that area.

One large crowd with ten small teams to do flash mobbing at angles away from the main demonstration with panicky calls coming into the comms centre would cause a lot of confusion and have the Gardai in a town like Dublin at sixes and sevens fairly quickly.

In a way it would be like the main demo pinning down the majority of police instead of the other way around. A way of kettling the police. You wouldn't even need a lot of organisation because false calls into the police on crowds forming elsewhere would have them running around as well.

No one need get hurt either.

Meanwhile general petain joins herr goebbels for a nice chat on fionnuala and the kids. #irishrevolution #july16

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I think we are inevitably moving toward a point where authorities attempt to downgrade the lifestyles of everyone in order to pay to maintain the lifestyles of an elite. There is evidence of that from the US right through to eastern Europe and Russia. Possibly even China.

Which means that it will dawn at some point on the majority of the population that they are in fact what they always were- tax cattle.

'Taxes are for the little people' (Leona Hemsley).

So far individual governments such as in Ireland have managed to set private sector employees against public sector employees so that the entire working class don't notice that they are both having their living conditions adjusted in favour of an emerging oligarchy mostly consisting of 'wealth creators' (rubbish), bankers, barristers and the usual professions who merely manipulate data to create the impression of wealth rather than actually produce anything.

Fianna Failers if you notice never actually invent anything or innovate. In Ireland the route to business success is to find a way to insert yourself into the public purse or divert some of it your way and that holds for barristers, developers, politicians, doctors, basically the professional classes who don't want to actually have to do any work for money.

The ultimate aim was reached in the last Dail where someone had the super wheeze of not waiting for the public income stream to meander in their direction and fill up their little tributary off it but decided instead to damn the whole river and divert it for them and their friends.

Can you imagine if we found out that Dermot Desmond, McManus and some FF connected names were the actual bondholders who Lennie was chucking the national income for the foreseeable future at?

Ahern and people like Brendan Halligan are poised with directorships to benefit from the sale and breakup of national assets and a nudge of what remains of the public income stream in their direction via Oireachtas policy.

It is one long drawn out theft and the rest of the country is bickering between themselves over who gets to pay the bill for it.

This is why sometimes I think the Irish nation deserves everything the oligarchy throws at it. Other times I'd like to see gibbets in use for the oligarchy all around the fringes of the Phoenix Park and a lot of land and property seized with as a nice touch a few firing squads in action to reduce the professions involved to a more humble and wary station.

Not half enough blood was spilt and not half enough assets were seized in our little rebellion as far as I can see.

[Kev Bar]

I've opened a subforum for this new Spanish/Irish group which seems to have started very spontaneously to support the Madrid "campo" before the Spanish General Election.

The group is meeting regularly in Dublin and Cork and increasingly Irish people have joined in.

It has at the moment an "anti-politician" character at the same time as clearly being a political response. I will be interested to see if left parties will support the movement, and respect it's wish at this stage to exclude party political banners.

Perhaps this group will provide the "missing umbrella" under which people can come together to oppose the banks bailout and IMF/EU deal.

I wish they would get the month right on the declaration, it would give me more faith in their ability to take on the world.

[Apjp]

I think we are inevitably moving toward a point where authorities attempt to downgrade the lifestyles of everyone in order to pay to maintain the lifestyles of an elite. There is evidence of that from the US right through to eastern Europe and Russia. Possibly even China.

Which means that it will dawn at some point on the majority of the population that they are in fact what they always were- tax cattle.

'Taxes are for the little people' (Leona Hemsley).

So far individual governments such as in Ireland have managed to set private sector employees against public sector employees so that the entire working class don't notice that they are both having their living conditions adjusted in favour of an emerging oligarchy mostly consisting of 'wealth creators' (rubbish), bankers, barristers and the usual professions who merely manipulate data to create the impression of wealth rather than actually produce anything.

Fianna Failers if you notice never actually invent anything or innovate. In Ireland the route to business success is to find a way to insert yourself into the public purse or divert some of it your way and that holds for barristers, developers, politicians, doctors, basically the professional classes who don't want to actually have to do any work for money.

The ultimate aim was reached in the last Dail where someone had the super wheeze of not waiting for the public income stream to meander in their direction and fill up their little tributary off it but decided instead to damn the whole river and divert it for them and their friends.

Can you imagine if we found out that Dermot Desmond, McManus and some FF connected names were the actual bondholders who Lennie was chucking the national income for the foreseeable future at?

Ahern and people like Brendan Halligan are poised with directorships to benefit from the sale and breakup of national assets and a nudge of what remains of the public income stream in their direction via Oireachtas policy.

It is one long drawn out theft and the rest of the country is bickering between themselves over who gets to pay the bill for it.

This is why sometimes I think the Irish nation deserves everything the oligarchy throws at it. Other times I'd like to see gibbets in use for the oligarchy all around the fringes of the Phoenix Park and a lot of land and property seized with as a nice touch a few firing squads in action to reduce the professions involved to a more humble and wary station.

Not half enough blood was spilt and not half enough assets were seized in our little rebellion as far as I can see.

Id make phoenix park into something useful for the public. like i dont know..a park? my guess is that dunner, berties best pal vis a vis the 2004 wedding call was a bondholder and that so were many politicians. the best example of evidence that politicians invest our money, which the steal through laws they made, in bonds is noonan who is a german bondholder. at least half the last dail in my view could have been bondholders for all we know. some of them junior and unguaranteed as well, perhaps? There will be heavy repercussions for the elites soon in my view, the only question is how soon #irishrevolution #july16 #eurevolution #worldrevolution

[ang]

Pictures here including a wheelchair user a victim of police brutality:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/acampadabcnfoto/sets/72157626817385780/with/5765018458/

[truth.ie]

Cops in that police riot have their numbers removed from their uniforms

[Fing Fers]

Pictures here including a wheelchair user a victim of police brutality:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/acampadabcnfoto/sets/72157626817385780/with/5765018458/

Peaceful protests and Police Brutality seem to go hand in hand these days.

http://www.20minutos.tv/video/bmuvFKLO-brutalidad-en-la-plaza-de-cataluna/0/

[whydontwe]

Apjp...I said just that 'many-moons' ago....but, of course...there are not enough who want to change here....just look how they were fooled last election. People still think they can grab a piece of the pie...they still don't accept that the pie-makers have hidden most of the 'meat' in their own freezers !!

[Apjp]

I think we are inevitably moving toward a point where authorities attempt to downgrade the lifestyles of everyone in order to pay to maintain the lifestyles of an elite. There is evidence of that from the US right through to eastern Europe and Russia. Possibly even China.

Which means that it will dawn at some point on the majority of the population that they are in fact what they always were- tax cattle.

'Taxes are for the little people' (Leona Hemsley).

So far individual governments such as in Ireland have managed to set private sector employees against public sector employees so that the entire working class don't notice that they are both having their living conditions adjusted in favour of an emerging oligarchy mostly consisting of 'wealth creators' (rubbish), bankers, barristers and the usual professions who merely manipulate data to create the impression of wealth rather than actually produce anything.

Fianna Failers if you notice never actually invent anything or innovate. In Ireland the route to business success is to find a way to insert yourself into the public purse or divert some of it your way and that holds for barristers, developers, politicians, doctors, basically the professional classes who don't want to actually have to do any work for money.

The ultimate aim was reached in the last Dail where someone had the super wheeze of not waiting for the public income stream to meander in their direction and fill up their little tributary off it but decided instead to damn the whole river and divert it for them and their friends.

Can you imagine if we found out that Dermot Desmond, McManus and some FF connected names were the actual bondholders who Lennie was chucking the national income for the foreseeable future at?

Ahern and people like Brendan Halligan are poised with directorships to benefit from the sale and breakup of national assets and a nudge of what remains of the public income stream in their direction via Oireachtas policy.

It is one long drawn out theft and the rest of the country is bickering between themselves over who gets to pay the bill for it.

This is why sometimes I think the Irish nation deserves everything the oligarchy throws at it. Other times I'd like to see gibbets in use for the oligarchy all around the fringes of the Phoenix Park and a lot of land and property seized with as a nice touch a few firing squads in action to reduce the professions involved to a more humble and wary station.

Not half enough blood was spilt and not half enough assets were seized in our little rebellion as far as I can see.

capt. what part of england you in again? you know the english have their own movement up now too? why not get involved! ireland is the 2nd biggest nationality in England!

[Apjp]

Apjp...I said just that 'many-moons' ago....but, of course...there are not enough who want to change here....just look how they were fooled last election. People still think they can grab a piece of the pie...they still don't accept that the pie-makers have hidden most of the 'meat' in their own freezers !!

Your insightfulness is as ever, very poignant ;) ever think of blogging on such issues?

[Kev Bar]

Looks like the rhizomatic revolution has finally arrived.

Popped down to see the vibe of the protest preparation.
A real pleasant lack of stridency. I think a digital psyche replacing an analogue one may have played a role in that.
Hip looking young geezer is there busy doing a poster.
I look at the one already completed.

"If You Don't Let Us Dream, We Won't Let You Sleep."

Wow.

Instantly thought I think I can be an adherent to a revolution, that can articulate itself like that.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

capt. what part of england you in again? you know the english have their own movement up now too? why not get involved! ireland is the 2nd biggest nationality in England!

Already am involved Apjp although you won't find me in demos. Horses for courses ...;)

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Looks like the rhizomatic revolution has finally arrived.

Popped down to see the vibe of the protest preparation.
A real pleasant lack of stridency. I think a digital psyche replacing an analogue one may have played a role in that.
Hip looking young geezer is there busy doing a poster.
I look at the one already completed.

"If You Don't Let Us Dream, We Won't Let You Sleep."

Wow.

Instantly thought I think I can be an adherent to a revolution, that can articulate itself like that.

That really is quite brilliant.

[Apjp]

Already am involved Apjp although you won't find me in demos. Horses for courses ...;)

:D :D :D

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[Apjp]

That really is quite brilliant.

Yes. There were many others. "generation dole" was the simplest 1 there. There were so many nationalities. Irish spanish germans greeks italians libyans syrians and senegalese. My thoughts were summed up by 1 poster that said "if ye dream of a better world,let's dream together!' Blogging on this later. I cant expect every blog to be published by cass but ill link it to here, twitter and fb via the andypurfield daily! Which I copied the idea of from ang.

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[Kev Bar]

Turnout was a little on the lack lustre side, to put it mildy. Paddy/Paloma ratio still a source of national shame.
Tomorrow is supposedly going to be bigger.

[Kev Bar]

That really is quite brilliant.

It is, isn't it!

[PaddyJoe]

Looks like the rhizomatic revolution has finally arrived.

Popped down to see the vibe of the protest preparation.
A real pleasant lack of stridency. I think a digital psyche replacing an analogue one may have played a role in that.
Hip looking young geezer is there busy doing a poster.
I look at the one already completed.

"If You Don't Let Us Dream, We Won't Let You Sleep."

Wow.

Instantly thought I think I can be an adherent to a revolution, that can articulate itself like that.
Nice translation of the Spanish original:

si no nos dejáis soñar, no os dejaremos dormir”

[Kev Bar]

Nice translation of the Spanish original:

Yeah had spotted that. Think works better in English.
(Or maybe I just can't pronouce Spanish well enough)

[PaddyJoe]

Yeah had spotted that. Think works better in English.
(Or maybe I just can't pronouce Spanish well enough)
But can you roll your errreres?:)

[PaddyJoe]

Off topic but I have been told by people who know(:)) that there is an occasional Spanish red haired kid who can't roll the 'r' and has to get special speech tuition.
Or maybe that's apocryphal.
Sorry:o

[Kev Bar]

But can you roll your errreres?:)

I head Maghreb side to clear my lungs.

[PaddyJoe]

I head Maghreb side to clear my lungs.
Ahh...golden Morrocco:)

[Apjp]

Nice translation of the Spanish original:

interestingly you can see the similarity bewteen spanish and french here. dormir means to sleep in french as well. and the verb penser-to think-is also used in both languages. fascinating. just the way latin developed i s'pose

[Apjp]

a message from me to the democracy now dublin page: 'someone pointed it out on the protest event page and i thought it was a good point that anyone who doesnt adhere to party material not being brought to the protests should get no speaking rights. marcus of the WSM-the anarchist movement, who didnt bring any of their material-correctly pointed out today that the swp have had people at all the meetings and its hard to therefore see how it wasnt intentional that 5 or 6 of them were handing out their propaganda today. In my view they did what the swp does best, they ignored the rules. the socialist party and the WSM are heavily involved and they respect the assemblies rules. theres no excuse for the swp not to in my view and i move that anyone who doesnt in future shouldnt get speaking rights.'

I have to say my respect for the WSM has grown hugely on their wise choice to adhere to what the assemblies vote on. the SP has also taken a back burner approach and let the people decide. the SWP is a disgrace in my view. No wonder they're so marginalized in our society if they cant even let people decide. They're a far cry from RBB who never seems to self promote himself or PBP/the SWP itself when he speaks. I even recall him asking me not to address him at an enough campaign meeting as a speaker of the ULA or PBP/SWP as he wasnt there in that capacity! Contrast that with some of his more hardline extremist members who seem very undemocratic if they cant even adhere to assembly rules and I think I'd rather live in a participative democracy where socialism is a possibility than a semi socialist state where party members undermine people's democracy. You can't have it both ways and clearly the rumours about the swp seeking to overthrow democracy completely, rather than to have workers democracy, are quite true in my view. I mean what could be more democratic than a self governing, potentially socialist semi-anarchist society?? it was something i gave out about in my 2 cents on the mic saying they shouldnt force themselves on others or hijack events and that theres a fine line between democratic socialism through regular votes like we have in the assemblies(which prove you can do things with regular votes if you get my drift on wider society) and semi-stalinism in one's approach to participative democracy. I think we now see the swp in their through light. there are good honest democratic trots like RBB but there are many who would favour a leninist, even semi stalinist approach of centralisation of choice making. i mean these are simple rules, voted on by the people present every week(which is EXACTLY what the people of europe are fighting for now in increasing numbers throughout the eu) and the fact that i was sneered at by 4 swp members recently 'oh you really think things like that would have a small chance of working' re regular-weekly if needed- referenda just backs up my view that the only socialism can be democratic socialism, and how socialist we are should be decided on by the people. not by underhands who undermine democracy over leaflets and propaganda newspapers!!

[PaddyJoe]

interestingly you can see the similarity bewteen spanish and french here. dormir means to sleep in french as well. and the verb penser-to think-is also used in both languages. fascinating. just the way latin developed i s'pose
Pensive here but certainly not dormant:)

[Kev Bar]

Pensive here but certainly not dormant:)

Aren't we the erdudite crew. Soon time to swap brains for the aforementioned bullion.

[PaddyJoe]

Aren't we the erdudite crew. Soon time to swap brains for the aforementioned bullion.
Me duele la cabeza pensandolo:)

[Kev Bar]

Me duele la cabeza pensandolo:)

An occupational hazard. Or so am told.

[PaddyJoe]

An occupational hazard. Or so am told.
Tis only an ould grump at de back of de head. Golden brown, I'll be sound:)

[Apjp]

I only know that from french translation class and fb posts haha. http://defaultnowwithnewpuntandstopdelayingtherevolution. wordpress.com/ Ive 2 New blog posts out including 'Socialism is back on the table, but the revolution must not be hijacked' and What will it take for the Irish to rise up and be strong? #Multiple Ireland’s a result of hidden and obvious economic devastation. If anyone would be so kind as to RT them Id appreciate it! :) The first one focuses on why socialism can only gain from participative democracy-ie why its not in any left thinking persons interests to hijack this revolution by subverting democracy in a Leninist or quasi Stalinist way. I finally copped ontio the fact after 2 years of blogging that FB posts on debating pages can be used as mini blog posts.

[Kev Bar]

I only know that from french translation class and fb posts haha. http://defaultnowwithnewpuntandstopdelayingtherevolution. wordpress.com/ Ive 2 New blog posts out including 'Socialism is back on the table, but the revolution must not be hijacked' and What will it take for the Irish to rise up and be strong? #Multiple Ireland’s a result of hidden and obvious economic devastation. If anyone would be so kind as to RT them Id appreciate it! :) The first one focuses on why socialism can only gain from participative democracy-ie why its not in any left thinking persons interests to hijack this revolution by subverting democracy in a Leninist or quasi Stalinist way. I finally copped ontio the fact after 2 years of blogging that FB posts on debating pages can be used as mini blog posts.

Ap.
I think your concern about hijacking is a tad premature. You're still very far the wrong side of the mass mobilisation phase.

[Kev Bar]

Tis only an ould grump at de back of de head. Golden brown, I'll be sound:)

Sometimes 'tis those fleets of mothers in your mind that stop you doing your best to lose it.
Golden Missus Browns.

[PaddyJoe]

Sometimes 'tis those fleets of mothers in your mind that stop you doing your best to lose it.
Golden Missus Browns.
Sorely tempted to go look for the appropriate #hashtag :D
And fish n' chips

[Apjp]

Ap.
I think your concern about hijacking is a tad premature. You're still very far the wrong side of the mass mobilisation phase.

Not at all. Ever watch Nikolas and Alexandra? The Bolshevik party was tiny at first. Trotsky led and plotted the details the whole revolution as Lenin was often away or theorising and Stalin plotted to power from day 1. This is EXACTLY the moment to ensure the admittedly small atm democratic revolution in Ireland doesn't have people subverting democracy, because as Stalin showed, 1 man undermining the wishes of millions is all it takes. If there are a number of people who cannot even adhere to simple votes, who can say what they'd be like when it came to oh i dont know national referenda which they disagreed with?

[Kev Bar]

Not at all. Ever watch Nikolas and Alexandra? The Bolshevik party was tiny at first. Trotsky led and plotted the details the whole revolution as Lenin was often away or theorising and Stalin plotted to power from day 1. This is EXACTLY the moment to ensure the admittedly small atm democratic revolution in Ireland doesn't have people subverting democracy, because as Stalin showed, 1 man undermining the wishes of millions is all it takes. If there are a number of people who cannot even adhere to simple votes, who can say what they'd be like when it came to oh i dont know national referenda which they disagreed with?

Perhaps I'm wrong and the horizontal will always be forced vertical. But it's the rhizomatic nature of this current gig that I find interesting.
But even on that level, it has not growm enough to be exploited big time.

[Kev Bar]

Sorely tempted to go look for the appropriate #hashtag :D
And fish n' chips

Mind the fat grams.

[Apjp]

Perhaps I'm wrong and the horizontal will always be forced vertical. But it's the rhizomatic nature of this current gig that I find interesting.
But even on that level, it has not growm enough to be exploited big time.

Ok. Point taken though im still wary. Whats rhizomatic? Too lazy to google ha

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[Kev Bar]

Ok. Point taken though im still wary. Whats rhizomatic? Too lazy to google ha

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It's a term derived from root like horizontal growth as opposed to tree like vertical ... but has was taken up by a couple of Leftist French Philosophers, Deleuze and Guattari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizome_%28philosophy%29), to caputure the digital zeitgeist and how a rarefied hierarchial approach to knowledge has been replaced by a more democratic one. The politics thereof are still under debate.

[whydontwe]

Cap'n...what you say 'bout the 'identity' of bondholders is...as I've been saying Ifor 'yonks'...logically, in no doubt! It goes against reason that politicians and the rest of the elite are not bondholders saving their millions! It just defies logic...and not just here...but throughout Europe. If I'm wrong...why are these saved bondholders anonymous?
I firmly believe the 'so-called' European project is finished...and those in power know it...and when the future is written we will discover that ordinary folks and their children and grandchildren have been well and truly raped by those who could have avoided it... but decided to save themselves and theirs.
Lastly...I do not believe capitalism can work any more; it certainly has'nt on a global scale for decades upon decades (from the 3d world's perspective). The world (and Ireland) needs to wake up radically and very quickly...if many more millions are not to suffer under financial despots.

[Apjp]

http://lockerz.com/s/108890585 Spanish revolution ongoing. Greeks were shown on 9 o'clock news waving irish flags and one lad gave a very pro solidarity interview to a rare top rte clip. Can we change this to European protests as it was never confined to Ireland and spain as im sure from her tweets, cass is well aware of. it would also help to keep this going as when it dies down in 1 place another tends to keep lively!

[C. Flower]

http://lockerz.com/s/108890585 Spanish revolution ongoing. Greeks were shown on 9 o'clock news waving irish flags and one lad gave a very pro solidarity interview to a rare top rte clip. Can we change this to European protests as it was never confined to Ireland and spain as im sure from her tweets, cass is well aware of. it would also help to keep this going as when it dies down in 1 place another tends to keep lively!

This thread topic is about protests based in Ireland. I'll change the thread title to make that clearer. There are separate threads on Spain and Greece.
I see that France is on the go too.

[Apjp]

This thread topic is about protests based in Ireland. I'll change the thread title to make that clearer. There are separate threads on Spain and Greece.
I see that France is on the go too.

seperate threads imply a need for seperate interests. why not have just 1? worked well on the arab thread!

[C. Flower]

seperate threads imply a need for seperate interests. why not have just 1? worked well on the arab thread!

Well, we have separate Egypt, Libyan and Yemen threads. Some discussion on the Greek economy threads covers the protests, and the same with other countries.

No harm in mentioning the overall protests here, but I think it makes sense to have a thread for posting about the Irish events (or lack of them).

[Uncorruptable]

why are these saved bondholders anonymous?
.

Bonholders of anglo listed here,

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HLD-3KNiebg/TLr-M1e2p-I/AAAAAAAAAAg/9gcaIADoGBw/s1600/ai-bondholders.gif

Not hard to join all the dots once you know the company names.

Source (http://golemxiv-credo.blogspot.com/2010/10/who-are-bond-holders-we-are-bailing-out.html)

[C. Flower]

An event of protest "against the politicians and banks" is on at four o'clock at the Spire on Sunday.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10150207163062900&set=a.134106002899.107077.777387899&type=1&theaterhttp://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2011/irelandwontsell.jpg

[PaddyJoe]

An event of protest "against the politicians and banks" is on at four o'clock at the Spire on Sunday.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10150207163062900&set=a.134106002899.107077.777387899&type=1&theaterhttp://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2011/irelandwontsell.jpg

De gremlins have got at that link:)

[PaddyJoe]

Cork Grand Parade 19J protest 4pm:
http://www.facebook.com/truedemocracynowcork

[C. Flower]

People have apparently according to Face Book been practising their chants for tomorrow..



We don't pay your debt, F you IMF!

No, no, they don't represent us, No, no, they don't represent us

From Madrid to Berlin we will fight and we will win!!

I want my future back! No to Euro pact!

Against the Euro pact, Irish people act!

Wake up, wake up, take your future (or the power) back!

Wake up, wake up, fight for your rights!

Politicians are the PIGS, IMF get out of Greece!

Watch up, watch up, the IMF is back

No pact, have them sacked!

What are you doing Enda? The IMF agenda

The IMF are muppets, we are not your puppets!

When the media lies, we're losing our rights!

Say no to Europact, Europact slavery (Ring of Fire)

Europact no way, we don't have a say!

Bankers are the PIGS, we don't pay your bills!

Politicians are the monkeys, bankers are financial junckies!

To the politicians actions, here are our reactions!

[C. Flower]

Photos of yesterday's protest at the Spire

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.227501427277144.74747.222360371124583

[morticia]

How many people present, do you reckon?? More than the "where's Wally" brigade??

[whydontwe]

morticia....alas....you're correct...admire the Greeks...despair of the Irish ! g'night and take care all !

[C. Flower]

How many people present, do you reckon?? More than the "where's Wally" brigade??

Not as many as in a hurling final either. I don't see the relevance though.

[morticia]

Not as many as in a hurling final either. I don't see the relevance though.

I suspect there are more people wanting to have a good time and forget about the bad stuff than protest about it. Unlike Greece.

I had a Greek colleague for a while, who went home on holiday in 2008/9 and said that she couldn't believe the contrast between the two places; at the time, no-one in Greece seemed at all worried about the financial crisis, while it was all the Irish could talk about.

It appears that situation has reversed.

[The Moth]

Relax. When the Irish get going it will be full on. I predict revolution when they start selling the state assets. We do not like people taking our stuff. Early days yet! Save your ********!

[Fraxinus]

Relax. When the Irish get going it will be full on. I predict revolution when they start selling the state assets. We do not like people taking our stuff. Early days yet! Save your ********!

Interesting observation. And when ya look at history, there is usually a substantial period where we put up with a lot of sh1t and then we just flip.