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View Full Version : Paul Murphy named as Joe Higgins replacement in EU Parliament



Jolly Red Giant
23-03-2011, 05:32 PM
Following his recent election to the Irish Parliament Joe Higgins the Socialist Party / CWI MEP for Dublin was obliged to announce his replacement as MEP from the election substitute list.

Today the Socialist Party announced that Paul Murphy will be the new Socialist Party / CWI MEP to take over from Joe Higgins. Paul Murphy has been a Parliamentary Assistant to Joe Higgins since the 2009 Euro elections.

morticia
23-03-2011, 10:06 PM
Well, best of luck to Paul Murphy. Hope Joe has instructed him to keep needling Barroso...I could do with some more amusement....

Ah Well
24-03-2011, 01:36 AM
Well, best of luck to Paul Murphy. Hope Joe has instructed him to keep needling Barroso...I could do with some more amusement....

Is it just me or is this fly under the radar I'm now an MEP cos i was co-opted of total indifference to the majority... this fellow has no proper mandate => he was not elected

Bad enough it's occurring at Cllr level in an Irish sense ...

Holly
24-03-2011, 01:39 AM
Is it just me or is this fly under the radar I'm now an MEP cos i was co-opted of total indifference to the majority... this fellow has no proper mandate => he was not elected

Bad enough it's occurring at Cllr level in an Irish sense ...

It is not just you; I am astounded that anyone can be an EU parliamentary representative without getting a single vote from his constituency. Something stinks here.

Ah Well
24-03-2011, 01:43 AM
It is not just you; I am astounded that anyone can be an EU parliamentary representative without getting a single vote from his constituency. Something stinks here.

It most certainly does stink ... and will continue to so reek until legislative changes occur to prevent these farces (Irish wise and European)

But that ain't gonna happen .... turkeys don't vote for Christmas ... and neither do Irish political parties, left or right for that matter ... just check out who is being co-opted onto Council seats for the now new TDs formerly Councillors blah blah

Joke

BOZG
24-03-2011, 07:18 AM
Is it just me or is this fly under the radar I'm now an MEP cos i was co-opted of total indifference to the majority... this fellow has no proper mandate => he was not elected

Bad enough it's occurring at Cllr level in an Irish sense ...

Well, if you want to be fussy, Paul Murphy received 82,366 votes after the 7th count, the same as Joe. During the European Elections, you don't just vote for the candidate, you also vote for their Replacement List knowing that there is a chance that the seat may be vacated and one of the replacements used to fill it. This was even more true of Joe's seat as he was quite explicit that he would contest the General Election and would take his seat in the Dáil if elected.

At a Councillor level it's slightly different as the replacements are directly co-opted.

On the other hand, there is a debate to be had over the issue of Replacement Lists. There is the arguments that have been raised - unelected, haven't faced electorate etc. I accept that most people probably don't realise they are voting for a Replacement List during the EP Elections.

On the other hand, party list systems can also be enormously positive. The significance of individuals and personalities in the Irish electoral system isn't a positive thing in any sense. It feeds into the parish pump, parochial style of politics and actually distracts away from the actual policies of the parties involved.

A move towards a vote based on the policies of a party not on its personalities, pretty faces or claimed differences between the central party and local candidate would be an enormous step forward for Irish politics. It has to be assumed that a huge number of people already do this and in that sense, they choose to put a Socialist Party member in the European Parliament and they choose to have a Socialist Party mandate there. The replacement list systems provides a continuation of that mandate.

C. Flower
24-03-2011, 09:06 AM
I think the EU system is reasonable but the replacement should be shown on the ballot. Irish cooption of candidates is a racket. Councillors step down and hand over to relations between elections maintaining their grip on a seat. Once they are in it is much easier to win the seat in the next election.
TheEP should cut out the travel to Strasbourg. That job seems to be more travelling than anything else.

BOZG
24-03-2011, 01:20 PM
I think the EU system is reasonable but the replacement should be shown on the ballot. Irish cooption of candidates is a racket. Councillors step down and hand over to relations between elections maintaining their grip on a seat. Once they are in it is much easier to win the seat in the next election.
TheEP should cut out the travel to Strasbourg. That job seems to be more travelling than anything else.

As far as I know (though I could be wrong), reference is made to the Replacement Lists on the ballot paper though the full List is not printed on it which it should be.

Yes, they should cut out the Strasbourg travel, it's a waste of time and money (in the region of €200 million each year). Most of the MEPs and their staff dislike it too. I believe Sarkozy has been quite adamant that he will not concede on the Strasbourg issue.

Holly
24-03-2011, 01:30 PM
What if a the electorate want to vote for a candidate who has a mind of his own and does not belong to or follow a party line on every matter. Are we bound to vote for other party members like them or not? Can an independent candidate contest a seat for the European parliament?

Griska
24-03-2011, 02:33 PM
What if a the electorate want to vote for a candidate who has a mind of his own and does not belong to or follow a party line on every matter. Are we bound to vote for other party members like them or not? Can an independent candidate contest a seat for the European parliament?

Of course an independent can contest a seat. I doubt it's mandatory to include a list of substitutes.

Another point, I think there can be up to five potential replacements named, so it's very difficult to know who will replace the elected person.
I remember fun and games in the WP when Des Gerraghty replaced de Rossa in Europe. This was when the split was looming, and people were unsure as to whether Garland (who was also named as a replacement) would fight Gerraghty for the seat. It was all very nasty, but slightly amusing to someone who had already made the decision to leave!

Holly
24-03-2011, 02:36 PM
Of course an independent can contest a seat. I doubt it's mandatory to include a list of substitutes.

Another point, I think there can be up to five potential replacements named, so it's very difficult to know who will replace the elected person.
....

This is manifestly undemocratic. There ought to have been a by-election for that seat.

BOZG
24-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Of course an independent can contest a seat. I doubt it's mandatory to include a list of substitutes.

Another point, I think there can be up to five potential replacements named, so it's very difficult to know who will replace the elected person.
I remember fun and games in the WP when Des Gerraghty replaced de Rossa in Europe. This was when the split was looming, and people were unsure as to whether Garland (who was also named as a replacement) would fight Gerraghty for the seat. It was all very nasty, but slightly amusing to someone who had already made the decision to leave!

No, it's not mandatory. The seat would then be automatically vacated by an appointee of the Dáil.

In relation to the numbers of candidates on the replacement list, non-party and independents can nominate three people for their replacement list, registered political parties can nominate up to four names more than the number of party candidates in the constituency.

C. Flower
24-03-2011, 02:49 PM
It seems to me that Joe Higgins has an unerring instinct for being at the right place in the wrong time. Last year, when we needed him here running up to the IMF/EU takeover, he was in Brussels. This year, when the business end of things is now in Europe, with the Competitivity Pact to be fought, he is in the echoing and empty Daíl.

Griska
24-03-2011, 02:50 PM
It seems to me that Joe Higgins has an unerring instinct for being at the right place in the wrong time. Last year, when we needed him here running up to the IMF/EU takeover, he was in Brussels. This year, when the business end of things is now in Europe, with the Competitivity Pact to be fought, he is in the echoing and empty Daíl.

How very true.

whydontwe
24-03-2011, 08:21 PM
This 'subject' was aired on 'liveline' today. Many people were of the opinion that it will be hypocritical of Higgins etc to 'have a go' at other parties for their 'jobs for the boys' strategy in the future! Have to say...it's an interesting dilemma for the Socialists !

C. Flower
24-03-2011, 08:25 PM
Following his recent election to the Irish Parliament Joe Higgins the Socialist Party / CWI MEP for Dublin was obliged to announce his replacement as MEP from the election substitute list.

Today the Socialist Party announced that Paul Murphy will be the new Socialist Party / CWI MEP to take over from Joe Higgins. Paul Murphy has been a Parliamentary Assistant to Joe Higgins since the 2009 Euro elections.

Would it have been possible to have an election, as an alternative ?

Holly
24-03-2011, 08:34 PM
Would it have been possible to have an election, as an alternative ?

Apparently this is forbidden by the EU and if there had not been a list of replacements it would have been left to the Irish government to send a replacement.

Griska
24-03-2011, 09:09 PM
Would it have been possible to have an election, as an alternative ?

Nope, it is verboten.

Hate the game, not the player:cool:

Baron von Biffo
25-03-2011, 09:09 AM
It is not just you; I am astounded that anyone can be an EU parliamentary representative without getting a single vote from his constituency. Something stinks here.

Isn't it the case that substitutes are declared at the time of the EP elections?

C. Flower
25-03-2011, 10:52 AM
Nope, it is verboten.

Hate the game, not the player:cool:

I don't have a problem with it tbh, and think there should be the same system for local authority councillors.

antiestablishmentarian
25-03-2011, 11:17 AM
Isn't it the case that substitutes are declared at the time of the EP elections?

It is, and if memory serves correct there were a number of newspapers which raised this point in connection to Joe and Alan Kelly after they were elected, as both made it clear they would run for the Dáil in this GE.

Baron von Biffo
25-03-2011, 11:21 AM
It is, and if memory serves correct there were a number of newspapers which raised this point in connection to Joe and Alan Kelly after they were elected, as both made it clear they would run for the Dáil in this GE.

While I'd prefer to see casual vacancies filled by means of by-elections there's no doubt that the replacements have a valid mandate.

Holly
25-03-2011, 01:53 PM
Isn't it the case that substitutes are declared at the time of the EP elections?

I voted in that election and there were no substitutes listed on my ballot paper.
The is a better way to deal with this and it is to have a by-election for vacated seats.

BOZG
25-03-2011, 06:28 PM
I voted in that election and there were no substitutes listed on my ballot paper.
The is a better way to deal with this and it is to have a by-election for vacated seats.

But it's pointed out that there is a replacement list on the ballot paper and that it's available to be viewed in the polling station.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

bormotello
25-03-2011, 10:19 PM
But it's pointed out that there is a replacement list on the ballot paper and that it's available to be viewed in the polling station.

Do you think that anybody will ever look at the end of replacement list?

BOZG
27-03-2011, 07:52 PM
Do you think that anybody will ever look at the end of replacement list?

Probably very few people do but that's hardly the fault of the Socialist Party. And if people voted on the basis that they assumed that Ruth would fill the seat, that's their prerogative but no one in the Socialist Party ever insinuated that would be the case, particularly as circumstances can change very quickly and repeatedly within what is nearly a two-year time frame since the replacement list was submitted.

Regardless, had Ruth filled the MEP vacancy, we'd still have the same claims of "cronyism" and "nepotism" considering that Ruth has worked alongside Joe in Dublin West for over a decade and that she took the council seat after Dual Mandate was abolished. And we'd have the same accusations of undemocratic tactics when someone was co-opted to Ruth's council seat.

The reality is that these attacks on the Socialist Party, particularly on P.ie are about political point scoring and nothing to do with the injured sensibilities of internet politicos.

C. Flower
27-03-2011, 07:59 PM
Probably very few people do but that's hardly the fault of the Socialist Party. And if people voted on the basis that they assumed that Ruth would fill the seat, that's their prerogative but no one in the Socialist Party ever insinuated that would be the case, particularly as circumstances can change very quickly and repeatedly within what is nearly a two-year time frame since the replacement list was submitted.

Regardless, had Ruth filled the MEP vacancy, we'd still have the same claims of "cronyism" and "nepotism" considering that Ruth has worked alongside Joe in Dublin West for over a decade and that she took the council seat after Dual Mandate was abolished. And we'd have the same accusations of undemocratic tactics when someone was co-opted to Ruth's council seat.

The reality is that these attacks on the Socialist Party, particularly on P.ie are about political point scoring and nothing to do with the injured sensibilities of internet politicos.

While we're doing that so:D:), what are the options for local authority seats, and how does the Socialist Party deal with this ?

Jolly Red Giant
28-03-2011, 09:53 PM
While we're doing that so:D:), what are the options for local authority seats, and how does the Socialist Party deal with this ?

The Socialist Party uses the rules that exist on councils. In Fingal Clare Daly nominated Eugene Coppinger as her replacement.

Does the Socialist Party agree with this method of replacement - no it doesn't - councillors should be replaced by a local council by-election. But unfortunately the government would ahve to change the law to facilitate this. In the meantime if the Socialist Party didn't nominate its own replacement then the majority group on the council would nominate one of their cronies.

C. Flower
28-03-2011, 09:59 PM
The Socialist Party uses the rules that exist on councils. In Fingal Clare Daly nominated Eugene Coppinger as her replacement.

Does the Socialist Party agree with this method of replacement - no it doesn't - councillors should be replaced by a local council by-election. But unfortunately the government would ahve to change the law to facilitate this. In the meantime if the Socialist Party didn't nominate its own replacement then the majority group on the council would nominate one of their cronies.


Co-option I think is particularly toxic - worse than leaving the seat unfilled (which doesn't seem to be an option) - as the main parties tend to use it to slot into position meritless relations of the deceased or relocated incumbents.

Once they are in the seat, of course it is relatively easy to keep it, as they can pose as having "given" voters a house, streetlight, transfer or whatever.