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ang
01-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Michael Taft gives his reasons ( Notes on the Front) as to why Labour should not enter coalition with FG.

I doubt that Michael will be listened to the mercs and perks would seem to be a lot more appealing to Labour:-


Labour has a historic opportunity to become the official opposition. This is nothing to dismiss. Up to 40 percent of the electorate voted for Left parties and independents, electing 60 deputies. This is the largest contingent of progressive TDs since the founding of the state. Given what might have been – with a number of progressive candidates just missing out, the potential for growing this progressive alliance in the short-term is high.

In many areas the Left is the dominant force. In a number of areas the combined Left vote exceeded 50 percent with some exceeding 60 percent (Dublin Central, South Central, North West). These types of results should be a game changer.

Fianna Fail’s collapse was not just an indictment on that party’s policies, but on the outdated political divide that has dominated Irish politics since the 1930s – namely, Fianna Fail vs. everyone else. That divide no longer exists. It has been substituted by a divide between the Left and the Right.

A strong, cooperative Left in the Dail could achieve many things against a Fine Gael government supported by right-wing independents and an emaciated Fianna Fail (which would have no choice but to support a party that is essentially carrying its own policies). It could build a broad alliance in civil society – bringing together trade unions and social organisations to campaign on a progressive consensus that already exists on economic issues.

It could expose the failure of austerity economics which Fine Gael is determined to carry through – public spending cuts, wage devaluation, privatisation, public sector downsizing, etc.

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2011/02/when-i-re-tweeted-labour-councillor-cian-ocallaghans-news-statement-calling-on-labour-not-to-enter-coalition-with-fine.html

Sidewinder
01-03-2011, 12:37 PM
I was making the same point yesterday that FG + right indos don't need an absolute majority, or a formal arrangement with FF, as there's nothing FF can do but support & abstain FG implementing roughly the same agenda anyway. And the remaining FF voters - rural, elderly, Catholic, conservative - wouldn't be happy about Fianna Fáil cuddling up to a collections of "shinners and socialists" in the rest of the Opposition. Not that Lab/SF/ULA would want anything to do with them anyway.

It makes far more sense for Lab to stay in Opposition on the left opposing an FG/Ind minority Govt. And FF are reduced to a pointless irrelevance who have no choice but to support FG. And FG get to govern alone for a few years and demonstrate if they are any use - do any sort of a half-decent job and they will hoover up the conservative vote next time.

Buddha
01-03-2011, 01:30 PM
I was making the same point yesterday that FG + right indos don't need an absolute majority, or a formal arrangement with FF, as there's nothing FF can do but support & abstain FG implementing roughly the same agenda anyway. And the remaining FF voters - rural, elderly, Catholic, conservative - wouldn't be happy about Fianna Fáil cuddling up to a collections of "shinners and socialists" in the rest of the Opposition. Not that Lab/SF/ULA would want anything to do with them anyway.

It makes far more sense for Lab to stay in Opposition on the left opposing an FG/Ind minority Govt. And FF are reduced to a pointless irrelevance who have no choice but to support FG. And FG get to govern alone for a few years and demonstrate if they are any use - do any sort of a half-decent job and they will hoover up the conservative vote next time.

I agree Sidewinder, but of course Labour will enter into coalition with FG. They will use the same reason that the PDs, the Greens, DL, and Labour in the past have made. And maybe they truly believe that they will be protecting the weakest of our society. And maybe some of them believe in Santa. I don't have hope for those of us on say, Invalidity Pension for instance. I'm already down to 185 euros per week. Lucky me, I get to spend time in hospital so that saves on the bills a bit. Oh, I shouldn't have said that. Now they will start charging me for bed and board!

However, I have to say that I am very relieved that FG did not get an overall majority. Thank be to whatever it is you believe in.

TotalMayhem
01-03-2011, 07:21 PM
Labour will experience a wipe out like the Green Party when this government is finished and Fianna Fáil will be back with a vengeance... but hey, Mercs are Mercs and perks are perks.

Buddha
01-03-2011, 07:53 PM
Labour will experience a wipe out like the Green Party when this government is finished and Fianna Fáil will be back with a vengeance... but hey, Mercs are Mercs and perks are perks.

Hey, if we all pray to our own Sky Fairy, it might not be so. Maybe we are being too hard. Maybe miracles do happen and an honest, well-meaning, people's party might emerge from this embrace.

Oh look, a pig just flew by!

Kid Ryder
01-03-2011, 08:00 PM
Labour will experience a wipe out like the Green Party when this government is finished and Fianna Fáil will be back with a vengeance... but hey, Mercs are Mercs and perks are perks.

You're not wrong there me 'oul c0ck! Interposing oneself between a Labour TD and a ministerial Merc. is like standing between a Friesian cow and a meal-bin. Expect to get trampled. And sure look at the age of most of 'em - e.g. Gilmore, Kathleen Lynch, Burton, Penrose - they'll see this as their last and best chance to 'make a difference'. 'Labour must wait', but these vain and greedy Labour TDs can't.

Apjp
01-03-2011, 08:12 PM
Michael Taft gives his reasons ( Notes on the Front) as to why Labour should not enter coalition with FG.

I doubt that Michael will be listened to the mercs and perks would seem to be a lot more appealing to Labour:-



http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2011/02/when-i-re-tweeted-labour-councillor-cian-ocallaghans-news-statement-calling-on-labour-not-to-enter-coalition-with-fine.html

This man is the closest to socialism ive seen from an american economist. hes very much in between keynesianism and marxism-i really like taft. A shame eamon gilmore is more concerned about being tanaiste now than taoiseach of a left govt in a few years.

TotalMayhem
02-03-2011, 07:23 PM
Interposing oneself between a Labour TD and a ministerial Merc. is like standing between a Friesian cow and a meal-bin. Expect to get trampled.

:D :D :D

Speaking of whom, a Friesian cow would make a better finance minister than Moan Burton.

Fraxinus
02-03-2011, 07:57 PM
Labour recieve a whipping at the polls after every time they have gone into coalition with FG. There is nothing to suggest the next time will be any different....in fact it could be worse given that a strong SF will be in a good position to recieve Labour's left wing vote.

C. Flower
02-03-2011, 10:21 PM
Labour recieve a whipping at the polls after every time they have gone into coalition with FG. There is nothing to suggest the next time will be any different....in fact it could be worse given that a strong SF will be in a good position to recieve Labour's left wing vote.

SF and also possibly the ULA and other Left parties.

Baron von Biffo
02-03-2011, 10:39 PM
Labour recieve a whipping at the polls after every time they have gone into coalition with FG. There is nothing to suggest the next time will be any different....in fact it could be worse given that a strong SF will be in a good position to recieve Labour's left wing vote.


SF and also possibly the ULA and other Left parties.

IF Lab governs with FG they probably will get the traditional savaging at the polls. Their voters will be angry that Lab stood over savage cuts and the media will lament the fact that they prevented even worse.

I wouldn't bet on SF/ULA reaping the rewards though. This time the electorate was in ABFF mode, next time they wont and the FF organisation is still there as the basis for a comeback.

Baron von Biffo
02-03-2011, 10:40 PM
:D :D :D

Speaking of whom, a Friesian cow would make a better finance minister than Moan Burton.

Would you rather Noonan or Varadkar?

TotalMayhem
02-03-2011, 10:56 PM
Would you rather Noonan or Varadkar?

I' say, thanks to our European partners and our friends in the IMF the question is rather moot.

Baron von Biffo
02-03-2011, 10:59 PM
I' say, thanks to our European partners and our friends in the IMF the question is rather moot.

If it was moot Mr. Beans wouldn't have had his minions campaigning for FG.

Apjp
02-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Would you rather Noonan or Varadkar?

thats like saying how should i kill you!!!!

Baron von Biffo
02-03-2011, 11:01 PM
thats like saying how should i kill you!!!!

:D

Some deaths are better than others - I've been dead, I know.

yoganmahew
02-03-2011, 11:11 PM
Labour recieve a whipping at the polls after every time they have gone into coalition with FG. There is nothing to suggest the next time will be any different....in fact it could be worse given that a strong SF will be in a good position to recieve Labour's left wing vote.

How did Labour in government with FF work out? It could be argued that the poor showing in 1997 was the result of going into coalition with FF. Or perhaps it is that Labour were the only party in power all the time between 1992 and 1997? And that they left FF to join FG and DL without precipitating an election?

edit: PS Mr. Taft believes that Labour are the natural party of opposition then?

Baron von Biffo
02-03-2011, 11:35 PM
How did Labour in government with FF work out?

After their trouncing in 97 the right wing reporter Stephen Collins praised Lab for getting over 90% of their policy implemented through the 2 governments they were in in the previous 5 years.

Their fate was a clear lesson to other parties that teh voters don't give a damn about policy.


It could be argued that the poor showing in 1997 was the result of going into coalition with FF.

In order for that analysis to stand you must believe that the voters punished Lab for going into coalition with FF by replacing them with FF. It simply doesn't make any sense.


Or perhaps it is that Labour were the only party in power all the time between 1992 and 1997? And that they left FF to join FG and DL without precipitating an election?

Lab had their best ever result up to then and they asserted themselves in government. No one would say they were far left loonies but the thought of them getting even stronger frightened the sh1te out of our betters.

They were subjected to a ferocious onslaught in the media. It even descended to the farce of criticising Spring, who was minister for foreign affairs, for using the government jet.

When Reynolds threw the head in 94 the public was riveted to the drama as it unfolded. People were tuning in to live Dail coverage as never before. The influence of the media temporarily waned and Lab picked up in the polls. Had Spring opted for a GE then instead of crossing the floor they could have salvaged something. Instead he gave the press a breathing space and they went back on the attack right up to the infamous 'It's payback time' headline.

Putting the unpopular Bruton into the Taoiseach's office didn't help - remember that in 92 FG lost more seats than FF and from a smaller base - nor did contesting the GE as a government rather than a party but I always believed that the biggest factor in the 97 result was the relentless harrying by the media.

yoganmahew
03-03-2011, 09:15 AM
Fair enough, I wasn't in the country at the time!

The point still remains, though, if Labour are not to go into government with FG and not with FF, are they to just sit in opposition?

TotalMayhem
03-03-2011, 11:04 AM
The point still remains, though, if Labour are not to go into government with FG and not with FF, are they to just sit in opposition?

Of course, any strategic thinker could tell them that power will simply fall into their laps if only they had the patience to wait for this government to go under. However, greed and an imaginary entitlement for Mercs will be their downfall, but what do you expect from a 'political leader' who has "no problem" with his wife $crewing the taxpayer for half a mill?

Don't believe for one minute Pat Rabbitte's waffling about reining in FG, they won't have the power and will be annihalited as the scapegoat when this show is over, Pat Rabbitte is only interested in becoming the next Ceann Comhairle, nothing could be of less concern to him than the interests and well-being of the people.

OTH, we should be grateful for that, the thought of putting real power into the hands of the likes of Gilmore, Burton, Rabbitte and Bacik fills me with horror. Who knows, maybe Enda will go down in history as the man from Mayo who shut down Labour. ;)

Bernie
03-03-2011, 11:09 AM
No disrespect, but this line of logic is clearly misguided !


Of course, any strategic thinker could tell them that power will simply fall into their laps if only they had the patience to wait for this government to go under.

TotalMayhem
03-03-2011, 11:16 AM
How so? The most likely outcome is the disappearance of Labour and the return of Fianna Fáil.

Labour has nothing to gain (apart from straw polls for the ministerial car pool and pension entitlements) but everything to loose. Their influence in government will be squat.

yoganmahew
03-03-2011, 11:24 AM
What would they lose? They are at a historic high water mark. Either the economy is still stuffed at the time of the next election and they retain that level of support (having been in opposition) or the economy recovers a bit and they lose out through not being in government (FF will be screaming for lower taxes by that point).

I don't see that Labour have a hope of getting a non-urban vote without being able to show rural voters that they are worth electing. And the only way they can do that is by being in government.

Of course they run the risk of being Greened, but to be fair, they have long experience of it and at this stage, you'd hope they understand the pitfalls and how to avoid them.

You might also hope that the electorate understands this too... might be a hope too far, though...

TotalMayhem
03-03-2011, 11:47 AM
I don't see that Labour have a hope of getting a non-urban vote without being able to show rural voters that they are worth electing. And the only way they can do that is by being in government.

Didn't work for the Green Party, now did it? :D

Bernie
03-03-2011, 12:04 PM
I was referring to your naive comment that "power will simply fall into their laps" !!


How so? The most likely outcome is the disappearance of Labour and the return of Fianna Fáil.

Labour has nothing to gain (apart from straw polls for the ministerial car pool and pension entitlements) but everything to loose. Their influence in government will be squat.

TotalMayhem
03-03-2011, 12:14 PM
I was referring to your naive comment that "power will simply fall into their laps" !!

Well, do you really believe Fine Gael worked extraordinary hard and well in opposition and is now deservedly reaping the harvest of their efforts???

Opposition parties never "win" an election, it's always the government $crewing up, hernce my naive comment stands.

Bernie
03-03-2011, 12:23 PM
Glad we agree its naive.


Well, do you really believe Fine Gael worked extraordinary hard and well in opposition and is now deservedly reaping the harvest of their efforts???

Opposition parties never "win" an election, it's always the government $crewing up, hernce my naive comment stands.

TotalMayhem
03-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Your belief that Labour will gain popularity from being in government with Fine Gael is no less naive.