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20 yards of linen=1 coat
27-02-2011, 07:41 PM
Is for stuff like this to be set up.
http://anticutsspace.wordpress.com/
Or possibly even for the non-affiliated politicised groups who the space is there for, to form in the first place. Not sure how one could go about making that happen.

Anyway, the 26th of March looks like the big test of what's to come for the UK...

If anyone is in London and interested they should check out that or the reallyfreeschool.wordpress.com

morticia
27-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Thanks for that, very interesting!

The British government actually have the opportunity to inflate their way out of the mess (unlike us), yet their approach has been to enact even more savage cuts, in some cases, than our lads (9K uni fees, anyone??? The old age pension is just over 400 quid a month...dole 60 something quid a week).

C. Flower
27-02-2011, 07:49 PM
Is for stuff like this to be set up.
http://anticutsspace.wordpress.com/
Or possibly even for the non-affiliated politicised groups who the space is there for, to form in the first place. Not sure how one could go about making that happen.

Anyway, the 26th of March looks like the big test of what's to come for the UK...

If anyone is in London and interested they should check out that or the reallyfreeschool.wordpress.com

I see that they offer heckler training. Given the very limp standard of heckling in this GE campaign, the sooner it's provided here, the better.

jpc
27-02-2011, 07:56 PM
Get rid of the restrictions that were placed on the FOI Act.
It left the last shower of gangsters get away with a lot.
Keep things open and honest.

morticia
27-02-2011, 07:59 PM
I think we need to adopt the British libel laws. Their press get away with an awful lot more freedom than ours do.... more importantly, the sex scandals would liven things up a bit!!

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 08:13 PM
Thanks for that, very interesting!

The British government actually have the opportunity to inflate their way out of the mess (unlike us), yet their approach has been to enact even more savage cuts, in some cases, than our lads (9K uni fees, anyone??? The old age pension is just over 400 quid a month...dole 60 something quid a week).

England is a fairly depressing place to live if you are on the dole but if you think our politicians have finished with their "austerity measures" then think again. Especially when our "sophisticated voters" (LMFAO) have just given the other Irish Conservatives full endorsement to carry on with the cuts, and a huge majority with a FG/Lab coalition with which to enforce them.

Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot. I sometimes wonder if the average Joe has any clue about politics at all.

Anyway, if you are waiting for some form of resistance to the ongoing economic oppression you would be best advised not to hold your breath. The Irish might be great at moaning and complaining but they appear to be resigned to their fate and completely unaware of what to do about it, as usual.

Griska
27-02-2011, 08:29 PM
The left need to prepare for the next election which, I reckon, will be in the next two years.

Labour, if they enter government, will not be able to temper FG.

When they begin to see themselves achieve the poll ratings of the Lib Dems across the water, they'll run to save their electoral hides.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 08:31 PM
Thanks for that, very interesting!

The British government actually have the opportunity to inflate their way out of the mess (unlike us), yet their approach has been to enact even more savage cuts, in some cases, than our lads (9K uni fees, anyone??? The old age pension is just over 400 quid a month...dole 60 something quid a week).

what exactly do ye mean by inflate their way out? If they print money the pound will eventually become worthless, import prices like oil will rise and people's lowered incomes will be worthless. higher interest rates and local charges would just increase homelessness and unemployment. the reality is that the only way to take this line is by outright devaluing on a massive scale (vietnam style-1000th of a USD) and changing your oil suppliers to venezueal etc and to have lower consumption taxes and higher income taxes. Thats how you begin to recover not by cuts like we have here or 'inflating' through stupidly making your money worthless like britain and america are. enda wants to borrow the dollar as well!! its funny money!!!

Apjp
27-02-2011, 08:37 PM
The left need to prepare for the next election which, I reckon, will be in the next two years.

Labour, if they enter government, will not be able to temper FG.

When they begin to see themselves achieve the poll ratings of the Lib Dems across the water, they'll run to save their electoral hides.

well i ask you this-who in the ula do you trust in merrion?? Id sooner have meself in there tbh. have you not seen their site?? there is one page of policies and they are all two lines long with no numbers! these people dig their own graves!

Hapax
27-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Is for stuff like this to be set up.
http://anticutsspace.wordpress.com/
Or possibly even for the non-affiliated politicised groups who the space is there for, to form in the first place. Not sure how one could go about making that happen.

Yes, I think you're right - this combines the symbolic effect of direct action, the occupation, with practical preparations for further action:


“Our occupation has been carried out with the express intention of
equipping anti-cuts movements with the resources they need. This is a
new tactic for the movement.”

I've seen little sign of that sort of imagination or initiative here. Everyone (well, the vast majority) still seems frozen in the headlights, and unable to take even simple steps towards organized resistance to what's coming at us.

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 08:57 PM
well i ask you this-who in the ula do you trust in merrion?? Id sooner have meself in there tbh. have you not seen their site?? there is one page of policies and they are all two lines long with no numbers! these people dig their own graves!

So who do you trust in FG or Labour?? We won't agrue about FF, just yet.

There's only one election promise that FG will adhere to, and that's the promise that there will be more cuts and more hardship. So what if they have all the speil and all the gloss. Is that what politics is all about? Whoever seems more professional, more glossy or more sophisticated or whoever comes up with the right soundbites, they're the one we vote for??

It's no wonder we're all up sh*t creek if that's all that matters to voters.

What should matter to voters is simply who will best look after their interests in the new Dail, whether in government or opposition.

If you are on the dole, working for a low wage or struggling to pay your mortgage and you had the wisdom to vote FG then good luck to you, you are going to need it in the next 2 years.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 08:59 PM
im amazed and fearful of why people dont protest. from me own viewpoint its emigration-if 52000 people werent leaving every year wed have a lot more unemployed. again looking at it i am thinking i have so many options and dreams that meself and people me age can pursue if we leave-whats there to stay for? is it worth resisting and running for election when clearly ireland is a right wing country more concerned with farmers grants and privitisation than excellent fisheries and state revenues from our 2 trillion euro fuel reserves..but then again what will history say if we do not?? i dont want reeling in the years saying 'another generation turns its back on ireland'. itr always says that. in reality the state has turned its back on this generation so history is a very judgemental friend. so many reasons to leave, just two to stay. family/friends and revolution. no sign of the latter anytime soon. if the masses flee to ff again i will be on the next plane outta here. thats a promise.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 09:04 PM
So who do you trust in FG or Labour?? We won't agrue about FF, just yet.

There's only one election promise that FG will adhere to, and that's the promise that there will be more cuts and more hardship. So what if they have all the speil and all the gloss. Is that what politics is all about? Whoever seems more professional, more glossy or more sophisticated or whoever comes up with the right soundbites, they're the one we vote for??

It's no wonder we're all up sh*t creek if that's all that matters to voters.

What should matter to voters is simply who will best look after their interests in the new Dail, whether in government or opposition.

If you are on the dole, working for a low wage or struggling to pay your mortgage and you had the wisdom to vote FG then good luck to you, you are going to need it in the next 2 years.

if you think id vote fg we clearly havent met on this before!! im a communist but the ula know nothing about economics except maybe seamus healy of social justice ireland. i dont know how pointing out the fact that the ula-and their own members have admitted this here before-have no economic policies for when we default(or even for if we could get a better deal, which i know we cant) or even any at all beyond default implies im fg. clearly youve jumped to a conclusion.

I want my economics lecturer as head of the central bank and i want a competent marxist economist in merrion. im starting a party very soon and i will post more info on things like these as we discuss them-esp. the need for the far left to actually use economics. and i trust no one in fg/lab. id sooner trust meself in merrion than burton or noonan.

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 09:14 PM
im amazed and fearful of why people dont protest....

There's only three reasons why people don't protest. No leadership, fear of getting a kicking from the militia and too damn lazy.

Kid Ryder
27-02-2011, 09:37 PM
I think we need to adopt the British libel laws. Their press get away with an awful lot more freedom than ours do.... more importantly, the sex scandals would liven things up a bit!!

HMG could teach the Chinese and Burmese a thing or two about restricting press freedoms. D-Notices anybody?

Apjp
27-02-2011, 09:39 PM
There's only three reasons why people don't protest. No leadership, fear of getting a kicking from the militia and too damn lazy.

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=128055347268007 6 so far-feel free to come along ;D:D

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 09:52 PM
Mmm, Wednesday, hum ha, have to take a day off work, hum ha, socialists?????? hum ha!

Look, I admire your making the effort and I have no doubt you're serious about changing the corruption and greed that is dragging this country in an ever decreasing downward spiral, but I was thinking more about a national day of protest involving thousands of people organised by one of our many self appointed social protectors, such as the unions or SF and involving coordinated marches in Dublin and Cork. (have you seen the price of petrol) but ok, I'll meet you half way.

You get 100 people to sign up to this before this Wednesday and I'll meet you there. Definate.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 10:05 PM
Mmm, Wednesday, hum ha, have to take a day off work, hum ha, socialists?????? hum ha!

Look, I admire your making the effort and I have no doubt you're serious about changing the corruption and greed that is dragging this country in an ever decreasing downward spiral, but I was thinking more about a national day of protest involving thousands of people organised by one of our many self appointed social protectors, such as the unions or SF and involving coordinated marches in Dublin and Cork. (have you seen the price of petrol) but ok, I'll meet you half way.

You get 100 people to sign up to this before this Wednesday and I'll meet you there. Definate.

haha ill try!! join it on fb yerself and tell yer friends! people on this forum-not you- are very talk the talk when it comes to this. many are far lefties like me but wont actually protest-they are too busy admiring the libyans etc to get their finger out. that needs to change. and i point that accusation at every leftie on this that refuses to regularly protest.

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 10:14 PM
haha ill try!! join it on fb yerself and tell yer friends! people on this forum-not you- are very talk the talk when it comes to this. many are far lefties like me but wont actually protest-they are too busy admiring the libyans etc to get their finger out. that needs to change. and i point that accusation at every leftie on this that refuses to regularly protest.

I'm like everybody else. I'm not far Left and I'm not anywhere near the Right. I'm just another Joe Soap just sitting here waiting for the call and wondering why the hell it hasn't happened yet.

But I'll stick to my word. You just need to convince another 94 people.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 10:16 PM
I'm like everybody else. I'm not far Left and I'm not anywhere near the Right. I'm just another Joe Soap just sitting here waiting for the call and wondering why the hell it hasn't happened yet.

But I'll stick to my word. You just need to convince another 94 people.

ha. ok. and for future marches may i hold ye to it?? like i said please like the event and tell yer friends :)

ModestMouse
27-02-2011, 10:31 PM
ha. ok. and for future marches may i hold ye to it?? like i said please like the event and tell yer friends :)

Yeah, I'll do that no problem, but I think most people are like me, waiting for the big one.

I'll even give you a bit more time. Confirm 94 more by this day week and I'll see you there. :D

C. Flower
27-02-2011, 10:37 PM
haha ill try!! join it on fb yerself and tell yer friends! people on this forum-not you- are very talk the talk when it comes to this. many are far lefties like me but wont actually protest-they are too busy admiring the libyans etc to get their finger out. that needs to change. and i point that accusation at every leftie on this that refuses to regularly protest.

I think you'll find a close correlation between admiration for the very brave Libyan protestors (and others), and taking part in protests ( and vice versa).
You may do well to remind people of the inspirational examples of Tunis, Cairo and Tripoli.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I think you'll find a close correlation between admiration for the very brave Libyan protestors (and others), and taking part in protests ( and vice versa).
You may do well to remind people of the inspirational examples of Tunis, Cairo and Tripoli.

of course. but i stand by what i said. people should stop JUST doing this and actually get up off their arse. You would do even better to join with me in reminding others of that. people need the belief to know we dont have to obsequoisly admire others-we are a sovereign people. if we dont get justice we should march until we have it-be that referenda, ant-austerity stances or whatever. the point remains and no one, including yerself has tackled it, people are too busya dmiring others to show the world and ourselves that the irish aint lame ducks and that we can stand up for ourselves. people would be answered better to quit admiring others so much and start doing things themselves. hang on, why the hell cant we do both????

C. Flower
27-02-2011, 10:57 PM
of course. but i stand by what i said. people should stop JUST doing this and actually get up off their arse. You would do even better to join with me in reminding others of that. people need the belief to know we dont have to obsequoisly admire others-we are a sovereign people. if we dont get justice we should march until we have it-be that referenda, ant-austerity stances or whatever. the point remains and no one, including yerself has tackled it, people are too busya dmiring others to show the world and ourselves that the irish aint lame ducks and that we can stand up for ourselves. people would be answered better to quit admiring others so much and start doing things themselves. hang on, why the hell cant we do both????

Don't make me remind you that you were too busy to come and picket the first day of the last Dail Term....

I think people should, if they possible can, go to the new Daíl on its first day and lobby the new TDs, if only so they know they are being watched.

Apjp
27-02-2011, 11:04 PM
@cf I did actually catch the end of it after doing early exams, but thanks for the grudge :p i attended 7 protests in dublin and navan last semester so im as active as anyone thanks. they should and i hope people here respond to me reverse psychology and come along :) it was intentionally scheduled for lunch time to aid that. ok so i cant just upsticks to egypt like you-though im happy you did that-, but i have twice as many college subjects as most people i know because me degree is so broad, so if i get to 1 protest every 2nd or third week thats pretty good considering i have 5 projects due in the next three weeks. im sure you know of similar stress??

Hapax
27-02-2011, 11:08 PM
I think people should, if they possible can, go to the new Daíl on its first day and lobby the new TDs, if only so they know they are being watched.

You're right, CF, that's an obviously symbolic occasion conveniently available to be exploited. What date is it, do you know?

Apjp
27-02-2011, 11:11 PM
You're right, CF, that's an obviously symbolic occasion conveniently available to be exploited. What date is it, do you know?

march 9th. im getting a small group together at the gpo for 1230 and by the dail for 1ish as people are off work for lunch then. youd be very welcome. if we get over 20 id be humbled.

20 yards of linen=1 coat
27-02-2011, 11:13 PM
Of course, one reason this cant happen in ireland is because of the draconian anti-squatting laws. Am I right in saying that any attempt to squat someone else's property is immediately treated as criminal? Wonder how long its gonna be before people are getting locked up left right and center for living in the ghost estates. Well, with any luck there wont be any police around there anyway.

Also, maybe ye could organise some kind of solidarity demo with the big one here on 26/3? Spose the unions would never think of it themselves would they?

Hapax
27-02-2011, 11:17 PM
march 9th. im getting a small group together at the gpo for 1230 and by the dail for 1ish as people are off work for lunch then. youd be very welcome. if we get over 20 id be humbled.

I might make it, but it's a long way from Cork to LH, or the GPO for that matter. We'll see. It's awkward timing, but it's a gift of an opportunity.

Kid Ryder
27-02-2011, 11:27 PM
Of course, one reason this cant happen in ireland is because of the draconian anti-squatting laws. Am I right in saying that any attempt to squat someone else's property is immediately treated as criminal?

The legacy of one Duzzie O'Mawlley, an anti-agitation law that was designed to criminalise Sinn Féin's campaign on public housing in the late '60s and very early '70s. One of the tactics used by the campaign was squatting public and private housing deliberately left empty. It (SF's campaign) really embarrassed the urban landlord class, a long-standing component of the Paedo Fáil family. Its continued existence on the statute books is eloquent testament to its utility for paedofáils involved in 'housing provision'.

Kev Bar
28-02-2011, 02:25 AM
The legacy of one Duzzie O'Mawlley, an anti-agitation law that was designed to criminalise Sinn Féin's campaign on public housing in the late '60s and very early '70s. One of the tactics used by the campaign was squatting public and private housing deliberately left empty. It (SF's campaign) really embarrassed the urban landlord class, a long-standing component of the Paedo Fáil family. Its continued existence on the statute books is eloquent testament to its utility for paedofáils involved in 'housing provision'.

Squatting. Jesus. We can't have that. Call the cops. Call Austin Currie.

Theresa
28-02-2011, 08:33 AM
Sorry but no time to read everything. What needs to happen and apologies if anyone else has posted this -

We need to get our act together on energy and food. The basics. No country will bring jobs to an energy insecure island. We are at the end of a very long supply line with ever increasing prices. We are not in control of those prices hence not competitive to attract business.

Food security is a major issue and there have been many problems in history started by food problems. Between the rising cost of food globally and the increased cost of it's main ingredient - oil - we would be best off providing our own, diverse, food supply and have some independence on that score also.

We need a radical overhaul to regain our independence. We have fallen as we are part of an international mess. We have put too many eggs in one global basket. In the wake of 2016 we should be looking at a fresh kind of independence - not one dictated by global food and energy prices.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
28-02-2011, 08:59 AM
Absolutely. There's only one realistic way to look at the Irish economy and what its strengths and deficiencies are if its to comfortably underpin Irish society as a whole and that means moving away from the aspirational stuff we see elsewhere and focusing on Irish infrastructure being linked to what resources we have.

Rising food prices may be a double edged sword in a country like Ireland and may shortly prove that agricultural land may return to a premium rather than building land so it may pay to knock down ghost estates and rezone them back to agri-land. Thats one way the state might actually make something out of nama'd debts.

European farming subsidies may not last past next GATT talks so we really should be preparing for our natural resources such as good fertile soil for crops to come back to the fore.

We need to use the sea better. We should have fish and mollusc farms on a much more streamlined basis- we have a great resource to the west of us I don't think we are using enough in sustainable fashion. Factory farms lose a lot of wastage through disease so there's value in selling toward the top end of the market with Ireland's clean and green reputation already pretty good for wild salmon.

Some traditional industries may make something of a comeback in the next few years with demand for food soaring and I hope Pearse Doherty will have a plan for co-ops along the west coast to surf any emerging trends.

Apjp
28-02-2011, 10:48 AM
I might make it, but it's a long way from Cork to LH, or the GPO for that matter. We'll see. It's awkward timing, but it's a gift of an opportunity.

Ok. maybe hold one in cork around the same time?? or a few days after to the local govt tds??

Theresa
28-02-2011, 11:27 AM
If only the rest of the country were more like Cork..............

As a Dub, with links to Clare, Donegal and Kildare living in Laois - that is some wish :)

TotalMayhem
28-02-2011, 11:35 AM
If only the rest of the country were more like Cork..............

Like returning 300% more Fianna Fáil TDs than Dublin? :D

Theresa
28-02-2011, 12:11 PM
TDs aren't everything - people can actually do it for themselves. Cork shows that - powerful people regardless of their political views.

morticia
28-02-2011, 07:08 PM
No country will bring jobs to an energy insecure island.

Spot on. We need to persuade people to develop any offshore fossil fuel resources that can actually be tapped, build nuclear power stations, and continue with developing renewables.

The FDI will disappear overnight (probably to Canada or somewhere else vaguely civilised with decades of oil supply left), leaving everyone else on subsistence rations only, the minute the rolling blackouts start.

And it's not just us that are banjaxed. At least we have a food and water surplus (apart from Dublin) and are massively underpopulated. Meanwhile, next door, the Brits produce only 60 odd% of what they eat....... and the racial tensions there and across much of the rest of Europe could be cut with a knife.

Theresa
28-02-2011, 07:29 PM
http://www.postcarbon.org/newsletter/263355-post-carbon-newsletter-middle-east

why does everything come back to oil????

I wonder! :D

morticia
28-02-2011, 08:02 PM
Sure it only underpins practically everything in our society.

To be fair to Bush, Cheney and Co., they spotted that before the rest of us.

Sadly, though, they chose all the wrong solutions. Imagine if all that Iraq war money had gone into wind, wave and nuclear....

Theresa
28-02-2011, 08:25 PM
but that would have been logical....................

Apjp
28-02-2011, 09:59 PM
Spot on. We need to persuade people to develop any offshore fossil fuel resources that can actually be tapped, build nuclear power stations, and continue with developing renewables.

The FDI will disappear overnight (probably to Canada or somewhere else vaguely civilised with decades of oil supply left), leaving everyone else on subsistence rations only, the minute the rolling blackouts start.

And it's not just us that are banjaxed. At least we have a food and water surplus (apart from Dublin) and are massively underpopulated. Meanwhile, next door, the Brits produce only 60 odd% of what they eat....... and the racial tensions there and across much of the rest of Europe could be cut with a knife.

I take issue with what you say. Firstly we have the expertise ourselves if we stop letting graduates emigrate. we should get statoil or someone else in because shell wont stand for tax on our 2 trillion euro fuel reserves. nuclear stations are not needed as clearly WE have potential decades of fuel to use and export. And we can use the money from it to build wind and wave farms.

Our fishing industry is worth at least 2 billion euro a year and then theres catering, exports, restauarant and take away sectors etc. that would get boost from it. There is hope after default.

ModestMouse
28-02-2011, 10:33 PM
I take issue with what you say. Firstly we have the expertise ourselves if we stop letting graduates emigrate. we should get statoil or someone else in because shell wont stand for tax on our 2 trillion euro fuel reserves. nuclear stations are not needed as clearly WE have potential decades of fuel to use and export. And we can use the money from it to build wind and wave farms.....

I fully agree, but that depends on our politicians getting their act together and creating the situation you describe before the lack of supply and/or cost of oil leave us fumbling around in the dark looking for the candles, which probably don't exist anymore because the Greens have outlawed them.

Do you honestly believe that our politicians are capable of organising our energy strategy so that we are self sufficient in green energy before the oil runs out without resorting to nuclear power????

I say start building them now, before it's too late.