How does someone die of hypothermia at home in Ireland in 2011?

[PaddyJoe]

What in the name of christ is going on here?:mad::

A YOUNG Dublin mother of two died of hypothermia during last January’s cold snap after the city council turned off her heating, an inquest has heard.

Rachel Peavoy (30) of Shangan Road, Ballymun, Dublin, was found dead in her flat on January 11th, 2010. The pathologist found she had suffered hypoth

The inquest heard how Dublin City Council had turned off the heating in Ms Peavoy’s flat. The single mother had contacted the council about it but was told the heating would not be turned on as a number of flats around her were empty and because regeneration was ongoing.

Counsel for the family Dr Ciaran Craven told the inquest that former junior minister for housing Noel Ahern had been contacted by Ms Peavoy and her family about the issue. He also made a number of representations on behalf of Ms Peavoy, Dr Craven said. He told the inquest that Ms Peavoy’s flat was “perilously cold” during the bad weather spell last January when Dublin was covered in snow. Calling for an inquiry, he said this was a case where “a young woman with no other system disorder died of hypothermia” and where there was “ample evidence in relation to the heating not working”.
How the **** do otherwise healthy people die of cold in one of the most advanced economies in the world?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0129/1224288526625.html

[Sam Lord]

That is truly shocking.

[Ah Well]

Dreadful reading ... asked her mother to mind her two sons ... would there have otherwise potentially been 3 fatalities

[C. Flower]

http://media.tcm.ie/media/images/r/RachelPeavoyINTERNAL.jpg





Dr Craven told the inquest Ms Peavoy’s flat was "perilously cold" during the bad weather spell last January.


Calling for an inquiry, he said this was a case where "a young woman with no other system disorder died of hypothermia" and where there was "ample evidence in relation to the heating not working".


The inquest heard how the garda who had examined the scene also noted the flat was "freezing".


The inquest also heard that Ms Peavoy’s doctor had said she attended his surgery on December 15, 2009, requesting a letter for heating costs.


Dublin City Coroner Dr Brian Farrell adjourned the inquest until February 24 to obtain further statements about the coldness of Ms Peavoy’s flat.


The victim, who had a borderline personality disorder, also suffered from back pain.

http://irishexaminer.com/ireland/froze-to-death-in-flat-143613.html

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Counsel for the family Dr Ciaran Craven told the inquest that former junior minister for housing Noel Ahern had been contacted by Ms Peavoy and her family about the issue. He also made a number of representations on behalf of Ms Peavoy, Dr Craven said. He told the inquest that Ms Peavoy’s flat was “perilously cold” during the bad weather spell last January when Dublin was covered in snow. Calling for an inquiry, he said this was a case where “a young woman with no other system disorder died of hypothermia” and where there was “ample evidence in relation to the heating not working”.You are quoting as fact, the statements of someone who stands to make money from a verdict of liability. How does this Craven know the flat was "perilously cold". Did he have a thermometer with him? <MODcf> How do we know <MODcf> as many people do, thereby putting themselves in danger.

Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system occasionally breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers legal "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.

[Andrew49]

Shocking & Shameful - and a snapshot of the society that we've created. There must be an independent inquiry into this needless death.

[TotalMayhem]

Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.

I would agree, if it weren't for THIS:


Next monday our Government in all their "wisdom" will be paying 750 million to unguaranteed Anglo bondholders:-

and THIS:


The feckless five Ministers who resigned from the executive team that drove Ireland into receivership for €85 billion are leaving with pensions worth an astonishing €18 million.

[wickedfairy]

time for a regime change as per Egypt. My condolences to her family. Someone should be charged with manslaughter. I note she attended the doctor looking for a letter re heating costs in 2009, a whole year before??

[TotalMayhem]

Someone should be charged with manslaughter.

Let's start with the criminally inept Minister for "Social Protection".

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Someone should be charged with manslaughter.In the left wing mindset, its always someone elses fault. Never the individuals fault.

In the socialist mind the state should give free heat, free food, free cars, free holidays, free arse-wiping services for the elderly. Everything can be free so long as the local Fergus Finlay type socialist bureaucrat designates you as a member of "the most vulnerable in society". And when the state misses a payment, then you get a lawyer to sue for some compo free money.

[Andrew49]

You are quoting as fact, the statements of someone who stands to make money from a verdict of liability. How does this Craven know the flat was "perilously cold". Did he have a thermometer with him? How do you know he's not just saying that in order to get some "compo"? How do you know he's not going to get a cut of whatever compo is doled out to the ambulance chasing solicitor who will soon file a suit. How do we know the victim was not drinking alcohol to keep warm, as many people do, thereby putting themselves in danger.

Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system occasionally breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers legal "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.

Do you have any idea what a '"perilously cold"' temperature is ? And if you are exposed to that '"perilously cold"' temperature continuously then hypothermia WILL set in. Look Hypothermia up and be surprised. Remember too that this mother died indoors - she wasn't outside performing duties or work.

Anyone can become hypothermic if they are exposed to very low temperatures for long enough.

[Andrew49]

In the left wing mindset, its always someone elses fault. Never the individuals fault.

In the socialist mind the state should give free heat, free food, free cars, free holidays, free arse-wiping services for the elderly. Everything can be free so long as the local Fergus Finlay type socialist bureaucrat designates you as a member of "the most vulnerable in society". And when the state misses a payment, then you get a lawyer to sue for some compo free money.

Some of the symptoms of Hypothermia:

* Pale skin.
* Drowsiness and lethargic behaviour.
* Mental confusion.
* A loss of co-ordination.
* Shivering.
* Heavy breathing and slurred speech.
* Feeling weak.
* A state of shock.

I think you can tick a few of those - An extra layer of clothes is recommended - and to prevent, or ease the pain of chilblains, soaking the feet and hands in warm water that has been used to boil potatoes - the nuns used to do that to me (and others) to revive me after I went into hypothermic shock.

[wickedfairy]

You are quoting as fact, the statements of someone who stands to make money from a verdict of liability. How does this Craven know the flat was "perilously cold". Did he have a thermometer with him? How do you know he's not just saying that in order to get some "compo"? How do you know he's not going to get a cut of whatever compo is doled out to the ambulance chasing solicitor who will soon file a suit. How do we know the victim was not drinking alcohol to keep warm, as many people do, thereby putting themselves in danger.

Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system occasionally breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers legal "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.

Because the gardai said the flat was perilously cold. And how can you think like that in the light of all the money, our money, including Ms Peavoys, that the bankers are walking away with, free money. I dont really get your point IJFIW.

[Andrew49]

Eamon O'Cuiv did say on Vincent Browne during the week that the Government made a few mistakes - they paid too much to welfare recipients, widows and the disabled.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Because the gardai said the flat was perilously cold.No they didnt. Counsel for the family said that.



And how can you think like that in the light of all the money, our money, including Ms Peavoys, that the bankers are walking away with, free money.Because they are completely unconnected. Im against bank bailouts, like everyone else. So what?



I dont really get your point IJFIW.My point was very clear. Read my post again. You cannot expect the state to keep every human being alive for ever. It is simply not possible. Do you expect the state to send a social worker to your house to spoon-feed you each morning. Why do you expect to receive free heat?

If someone in the prime of their life is incapable of keeping themselves alive, then there is obviously something wrong with them.

[geri222]

Another tragic scandalous death outlined below. A 40 year old died in a Hostel over the new year. His body was not discovered for 4 days !

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hostel-body-undiscovered-for-four-days-2515908.html

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Another tragic scandalous death outlined below. A 40 year old died in a Hostel over the new year. His body was not discovered for 4 days !People die. Thats life. Get over it.

Im not buying your crocadile tears, leftie.

[geri222]

People die. Thats life. Get over it.

Im not buying your crocadile tears, leftie.

And I dont buy your nasty comments and your dumb questionable name which says it all "Irish Jobs for Irish People"

[wickedfairy]

Because the gardai said the flat was cold, very very cold - well thats what the Irish Examiner says.

The inquest heard how the garda who had examined the scene also noted the flat was "freezing".


Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/ireland/froze-to-death-in-flat-143613.html#ixzz1CQuWrnA5

[wickedfairy]

And I dont buy your nasty comments and your dumb questionable name which says it all "Irish Jobs for Irish People"

Hi leftie, good to know you. ;):)

[wickedfairy]

imo, the way society treats the weakest, the old, the sick and the vunerable, is the measure of a decent, free society. Being equitable, this country being no such example, is good for all and prospers all. The Vincent de Paul should not have to run hostels on a charity basis, this is the responsibility of our government, there are only about 4 million of us, the same population as Manchester, surely it cant be that hard. They have always been there, even during the "Celtic Tiger" era, says a lot about us really.

[Andrew49]

imo, the way society treats the weakest, the old, the sick and the vulnerable, is the measure of a decent, free society. Being equitable, this country being no such example, is good for all and prospers all. The Vincent de Paul should not have to run hostels on a charity basis, this is the responsibility of our government, there are only about 4 million of us, the same population as Manchester, surely it cant be that hard. They have always been there, even during the "Celtic Tiger" era, says a lot about us really.

+1

At the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger 15 people were dying each and every day on the island of Ireland dur to the unequal nature, particularly in health, of society - no midnight meetings were held in Government Buildings, John Gormely was never roused from his sleep, the EU, the ECB or the IMF didn't see any need for intervention - they saw no need to twist the Government's arm on this silent holocaust; for you see these were poor people dying - 5,200 preventable deaths every year during the 'BOOM YEARS' - and not a squeak from Fine Gael/Labour, apparently the Government-in waiting. Fine Gael's priority is to fix the economy but not the unequal nature of society - a party who cheered during the 'BOOM YEARS' and actually called it the 'Celtic Snail' because, bizarrely, Fianna Fail were ... wait for this now ... just wait .... regulating too much!!!!! And Fine Gael don't see any correlation between lax regulations and the unequal nature of this society.

The Labour Party pay lip service to tackling inequality but are more hungry for power - power which they held before and actually dis-improved the lot of the most vulnerable in society.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

People die. Thats life. Get over it.

I live in a traditional irish cottage with no insulation. A couple of times it got down to 1C inside the house. No bleeding heart leftie gives me any free heat. I dont get this house for free. I pay for it from what I can earn with my labour. The state or "society" gives me nothing.

I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.

PRSI and welfare should be voluntary. I dont want social insurance and I dont want a payout. Bring on the IMF cuts and cut the spongers to the bone.

[Apjp]

Let's start with the criminally inept Minister for "Social Protection".

agreed. a traitor like his granda.

[Munnkeyman]

People die. Thats life. Get over it.

I live in a traditional irish cottage with no insulation. A couple of times it got down to 1C inside the house. No bleeding heart leftie gives me any free heat. I dont get this house for free. I pay for it from what I can earn with my labour. The state or "society" gives me nothing.

I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.

PRSI and welfare should be voluntary. I dont want social insurance and I dont want a payout. Bring on the IMF cuts and cut the spongers to the bone.

You should read the Irish Constitution.
Specifically Article 45.
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf

[mutley]

People die. Thats life. Get over it.

I live in a traditional irish cottage with no insulation. A couple of times it got down to 1C inside the house. No bleeding heart leftie gives me any free heat. I dont get this house for free. I pay for it from what I can earn with my labour. The state or "society" gives me nothing.

I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.

PRSI and welfare should be voluntary. I dont want social insurance and I dont want a payout. Bring on the IMF cuts and cut the spongers to the bone.

You don't think there is a moral responsibility for individuals to look out for the vunerable ?

Bully for you not wanting any help, you might change your mind though when you are old and infirm and require someone to come and wash you, feed you, change your incontinence pads, cause with your selfish attitude I can't see a queue of family or friends lining up to wipe your arse :)

[Apjp]

No they didnt. Counsel for the family said that.


Because they are completely unconnected. Im against bank bailouts, like everyone else. So what?


My point was very clear. Read my post again. You cannot expect the state to keep every human being alive for ever. It is simply not possible. Do you expect the state to send a social worker to your house to spoon-feed you each morning. Why do you expect to receive free heat?

If someone in the prime of their life is incapable of keeping themselves alive, then there is obviously something wrong with them.

Forever????? she was 30!!!! have ye no sense of humanity or are ye just trying to provoke the left of this forum???

[mutley]

No they didnt. Counsel for the family said that.


Because they are completely unconnected. Im against bank bailouts, like everyone else. So what?


My point was very clear. Read my post again. You cannot expect the state to keep every human being alive for ever. It is simply not possible. Do you expect the state to send a social worker to your house to spoon-feed you each morning. Why do you expect to receive free heat?

If someone in the prime of their life is incapable of keeping themselves alive, then there is obviously something wrong with them.

Yes there was something wrong with this woman, she had mental health problems

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

You don't think there is a moral responsibility for individuals to look out for the vunerable ?Youre getting to the nub of the issue now. Yes, I think INDIVIDUALS should look out for the vulnerable. The left expects the STATE to do it. Do you see the difference there. Its not that complicated.

I understand that the state is incapable of doing it. Because I understand that the state is just a bunch of bureaucrats sitting at desks, picking up a pay check and waiting to claim their pensions.

The left think the state is some kind of God that can cure all the suffering of the world. That is delusional, wishful thinking. You can accept reality. Or you can choose whining delusion

[Apjp]

People die. Thats life. Get over it.

I live in a traditional irish cottage with no insulation. A couple of times it got down to 1C inside the house. No bleeding heart leftie gives me any free heat. I dont get this house for free. I pay for it from what I can earn with my labour. The state or "society" gives me nothing.

I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.

PRSI and welfare should be voluntary. I dont want social insurance and I dont want a payout. Bring on the IMF cuts and cut the spongers to the bone.

I hope it goes below 1c very soon in your house. then we mightnt hear any more cruel minded snapping from ye on this forum.

[mutley]

Youre getting to the nub of the issue now. Yes, I think INDIVIDUALS should look out for the vulnerable. The left expects the STATE to do it. Do you see the difference there. Its not that complicated.

I understand that the state is incapable of doing it. Because I understand that the state is just a bunch of bureaucrats sitting at desks, picking up a pay check and waiting to claim their pensions.

The left think the state is some kind of God that can cure all the suffering of the world. That is delusional, wishful thinking. You can accept reality. Or you can choose whining delusion

Well you have said you don't want to help anyone, if everyone took that attitude, how many vulnerable would survive?

[Apjp]

Youre getting to the nub of the issue now. Yes, I think INDIVIDUALS should look out for the vulnerable. The left expects the STATE to do it. Do you see the difference there. Its not that complicated.

I understand that the state is incapable of doing it. Because I understand that the state is just a bunch of bureaucrats sitting at desks, picking up a pay check and waiting to claim their pensions.

The left think the state is some kind of God that can cure all the suffering of the world. That is delusional, wishful thinking. You can accept reality. Or you can choose whining delusion

your choice is quite clear. You are not aware of reality and you could not be if it danced naked in front of ye.

[Kev Bar]

I wld suggest that - reading between the lines - given the surrounding flats were empty due to 'regeneration' - < Modcf - Speculation >
Whatever fcuking use that is to the poor girl.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

your choice is quite clear. You are not aware of reality and you could not be if it danced naked in front of ye.Thats brilliant reasoning there.

Posters like you are why I dont post on this forum very often. When APJP logs on, the forum starts to feel like Bebo and I usually log off.

[mutley]

Thats brilliant reasoning there.

Posters like you are why I dont post on this forum very often. When APJP logs on, the forum starts to feel like Bebo and I usually log off.

Cheerio

[Kev Bar]

<Mod cf - Speculation>
Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system occasionally breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers legal "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.[/quote]



And why do you cynically presume the lawyer is not one of the admirable people working for the that Ballymun legal rights centre.

Before pontificating on free heat and legal vultures... a reading of the facts to have emerged so far might be instructive.

From an iniitial acquaintance with the aforementioned facts...it seems the issue was not one of individual 'payment or non payment ... but a seemingly ruthless imposition of logistics - (if not, perhaps, a deliibertate attempt to vacate).

[C. Flower]

No they didnt. Counsel for the family said that.


Because they are completely unconnected. Im against bank bailouts, like everyone else. So what?


My point was very clear. Read my post again. You cannot expect the state to keep every human being alive for ever. It is simply not possible. Do you expect the state to send a social worker to your house to spoon-feed you each morning. Why do you expect to receive free heat?

If someone in the prime of their life is incapable of keeping themselves alive, then there is obviously something wrong with them.

IJIW - I have modded post no. 5 as it contained innuendo and speculation. This case is going to be back in Court and may well be subject to legal proceedings in future. Please take care only to refer to published facts in order not to risk compromising any future Court action.
Please also check your facts.



Counsel for the family Dr Ciaran Craven told the inquest that former junior minister for housing Noel Ahern had been contacted by Ms Peavoy and her family about the issue. He also made a number of representations on behalf of Ms Peavoy, Dr Craven said. He told the inquest that Ms Peavoy’s flat was “perilously cold” during the bad weather spell last January when Dublin was covered in snow. Calling for an inquiry, he said this was a case where “a young woman with no other system disorder died of hypothermia” and where there was “ample evidence in relation to the heating not working”.
The inquest heard how the garda who examined the scene noted the flat was “freezing”.


Of course with air temperatures of - 11 or less and with empty flats all around hers, and with no working heating, the temperature was freezing.

[C. Flower]

It seems clear from the reports that she hadn't had working heating for a long while, possibly due to "regeneration works". I wonder how many other people are in a similar situation in the country?

The costs of using space heaters to heat a whole flat would be astronomic and way beyond someone on welfare benefits.

If the facts are as reported, there should be action taken against those responsible, up to City Manager level - if there is legislation that requires them to do their job.

[Fraxinus]

Youre getting to the nub of the issue now. Yes, I think INDIVIDUALS should look out for the vulnerable. The left expects the STATE to do it. Do you see the difference there. Its not that complicated.

I understand that the state is incapable of doing it. Because I understand that the state is just a bunch of bureaucrats sitting at desks, picking up a pay check and waiting to claim their pensions.

The left think the state is some kind of God that can cure all the suffering of the world. That is delusional, wishful thinking. You can accept reality. Or you can choose whining delusion

I think those of the left expect society to look out for people, and seeing that we live in a statist society the state becomes the main medium through which to help people.
Conjecture what you want but there is something very disturbing about a society that allows a young person to find themelves in circumstances in which they freeze to death while the said societies wealth is being hoovered up by a greedy minority.

Let us pray that none of us ever come across your cottage needing help at any time.

[mutley]

I think those of the left expect society to look out for people, and seeing that we live in a statist society the state becomes the main medium through which to help people.
Conjecture what you want but there is something very disturbing about a society that allows a young person to find themelves in circumstances in which they freeze to death while the said societies wealth is being hoovered up by a greedy minority.

Let us pray that none of us ever come across your cottage needing help at any time.

Why are scenes from the film Misery, running through my mind? :0

[Fraxinus]

Why are scenes from the film Misery, running through my mind? :0

Hide the sledge!

[ModestMouse]

....I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.....Bring on the IMF cuts and cut the spongers to the bone.

So you disagree with tax payers money being used to support people who are unable to support themselves but you agree with the IMF cuts that were brought about by tax payers money being used to bail out the banks???

Do you understand the phrase, "double standards"?

[carolmon]

Yes there was something wrong with this woman, she had mental health problems

How do you know this??

[mutley]

How do you know this??

In the article Cactus quoted, it claimed the woman had a borderline personality disorder

[C. Flower]

In the article Cactus quoted, it claimed the woman had a borderline personality disorder

Having said that, anyone might have problems trying to bring up two small children in an unheated flat and being given the run around by all the responsible parties.

[mutley]

Having said that, anyone might have problems trying to bring up two small children in an unheated flat and being given the run around by all the responsible parties.

Definitely

[Kev Bar]

So you disagree with tax payers money being used to support people who are unable to support themselves but you agree with the IMF cuts that were brought about by tax payers money being used to bail out the banks???

Do you understand the phrase, "double standards"?

"Double"? I think you are being a bit modest there mouse.


Outside of "XXX" are spongers but "YYY" are not circus of thought...there is the question of not just moral but perhaps legal responsbility.

You cld appear before a court for subjecting an animal to such conditions.

A young woman?

A mother who managed to save her kids from the appalling fate that befell her.

Landlords have responsiblities.
It appears this woman was destined to freeze even if she had a few quid.

And if the lady was one of the supposed 'spongers' that IrishIrishWorkJob rails about...then she was 'sponging' very very little if she ended up dying in artic conditions.

[Fraxinus]

"Double"? I think you are being a bit modest there mouse.


Outside of "XXX" are spongers but "YYY" are not circus of thought...there is the question of not just moral but perhaps legal responsbility.

You cld appear before a court for subjecting an animal to such conditions.

A young woman?

A mother who managed to save her kids from the appalling fate that befell her.

Landlords have responsiblities.
It appears this woman was destined to freeze even if she had a few quid.

And if the lady was one of the supposed 'spongers' that IrishIrishWorkJob rails about...then she was 'sponging' very very little if she ended up dying in artic conditions.

Absolutely....funny how the spongers that right wingers rave on about usually have very little and definitley don't have swimming pools in their back garden. Ya'd swear the deceased lady in this case had spent her heating money on building a lavish conservatory the way EmploymentByGenetics goes on.

[ModestMouse]

.....Outside of "XXX" are spongers but "YYY" are not circus of thought...there is the question of not just moral but perhaps legal responsbility.

That's what make you, and I, "Lefties" Kev.

You understand what the words "moral" and "responsibility" mean.

[truth.ie]

Had she no friends or family support?
I got locked out off my house one night whilst staying in dublin, I was young and dumb and had just spent the pittance i had, buying cheap plonk in Leeson St in the mistaken belief in would help me get laid (we're talkin' late 80's here)
It was bitterly cold and I'd just realised I lost the keys to the gaff. I had no credit card so I improvised and went to The Salvation Army for a kip and a bowl of hot soup in the morning.
I can't understand why this woman did not go to friends, family, or even lit a fire to keep warm. What happened to instincts of survival?
Apart from that, my heart goes out to her kids.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Having said that, anyone might have problems trying to bring up two small children in an unheated flat and being given the run around by all the responsible parties.If you cant feed 'em, dont breed 'em.

Heard someone on Newstalk the other day, discussing compulsory paternity testing for fathers who dont pay child support to their childrens mothers. It would have helped this lady enormously as she would have had money for heat without having to depend on the state. I hope the next government introduce it.

[truth.ie]

If you cant feed 'em, dont breed 'em.

Heard someone on Newstalk the other day, discussing compulsory paternity testing for fathers who dont pay child support to their childrens mothers. It would have helped this lady enormously as she would have had money for heat without having to depend on the state. I hope the next government introduce it.
How about the Fathers get the kids and the Mothers pay child support?
Try running with that piece of equality legislation.

[C. Flower]

If you cant feed 'em, dont breed 'em.

Heard someone on Newstalk the other day, discussing compulsory paternity testing for fathers who dont pay child support to their childrens mothers. It would have helped this lady enormously as she would have had money for heat without having to depend on the state. I hope the next government introduce it.

Off topic. Do you know anything at all about the economic circumstances?
She may well have been charged rent based on the flat being heated, for all we know.

This was a case of a failed heating system, not unpaid bills.

[morticia]

So you disagree with tax payers money being used to support people who are unable to support themselves but you agree with the IMF cuts that were brought about by tax payers money being used to bail out the banks???

Do you understand the phrase, "double standards"?

100 % agree, MM.

To change tack slightly

As a biologist, I would also like to advise that living in a cottage where the temp is 1 degree ambient is very dangerous. Your external blood vessels constrict and blood flow slows. Anyone with a tendency to DVT (1/12 of the population have thrombophilia, increased tendency to form clots, most do not know this until too late) is liable to formation of blood clots. Excessive cold is far more dangerous than excessive heat.

We had a heating prob at work last year (down to 14 degrees, 19 is the legal minimum in a work place, now fixed); as a healthy under 50 with a ready supply of woolly jumpers, I did not suffer unduly, but a friend and colleague spent almost a month off work having suffered pneumonia. She is someone with a heart murmur and low blood pressure, so would perhaps have been unusually vulnerable.

The common cold researchers at Cardiff University have also managed to show that chilled extremities vastly increase the chances of contracting colds and flu (flu especially leads to lung damage that leads to secondary lung infection which can lead to pneumonia), reason probably being that mucous membranes in the nose, mouth and leading towards the lungs have a lesser blood supply owing to cold related vasoconstriction, so the invading viruses are less likely to run into a white blood cell (the immune system's police).

Anyone in a 1 degree cottage, please, get some sort of heater, at least for the bedroom, or light a fire, or something!

[truth.ie]

How expensive can it bloody be to buy a second hand Superser. I'm seen many working ones dumped at the side of roads ffs.
What kind of money was this lady getting on benefits?
Sorry for coming across harsh but wtf is wrong with people. Are some people mollycuddled too much and unable to function as independent, sovereign people ?

[morticia]

How expensive can it bloody be to buy a second hand Superser. I'm seen many working ones dumped at the side of roads ffs.
What kind of money was this lady getting on benefits?
Sorry for coming across harsh but wtf is wrong with people. Are some people mollycuddled too much and unable to function as independent, sovereign people ?

Some of the flats built in the 1960s and 70s (a real architectural low period) might need more...hollow building blocks, vents and all that perhaps she had one?? I'm guessing she also may have had some sort of underlying biological vulnerability (DVT tendencies, low blood pressure, infection, or even just a very slight build) that may have tipped her over the edge.

We also don't know if she might have been in debt to moneylenders or something after trying to buy the kids Xmas presents.... some people are extraordinarily vulnerable, but too proud to ask for much help.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

How expensive can it bloody be to buy a second hand Superser. I'm seen many working ones dumped at the side of roads ffs.
What kind of money was this lady getting on benefits?
Sorry for coming across harsh but wtf is wrong with people. Are some people mollycuddled too much and unable to function as independent, sovereign people ?+1

I dont believe that an adult in the prime of their life is incapable of telling the difference between being cold and being in mortal danger.

Every human being and animal has a natural biological system that tells them when hypothermia is setting in and they have to get out of that situation. These systems dont function when alcohol or drugs are taken. No sober person would deliberately let themselves freeze to death.

[Andrew49]

Actually 'perilously cold' conditions doesn't mean living in temperatures in the minus figures. Temperatures of ONLY 14 degrees are perilously cold if you are exposed to them ALL THE TIME. Your body cannot take those temperatures and will eventually shut down - bit by bit. I know because I suffered a few times from hypothermia as a child ... once I even fainted in the chapel - which led to a beating which warmed me up! Once five of us were found 'asleep' in the boot-room all huddled together ... the room was that cold that we just dozed off. Needless to say the cold didn't effect the nuns as they were wearing several layers of clothes. Yet the children were always ALWAYS cold ... suffering from runny noses and chilblains on the hands and feet.

Constant exposure to (and living in) cold rooms can bring on hypothermia.

[Kev Bar]

+1

I dont believe that an adult in the prime of their life is incapable of telling the difference between being cold and being in mortal danger.

Every human being and animal has a natural biological system that tells them when hypothermia is setting in and they have to get out of that situation. These systems dont function when alcohol or drugs are taken. No sober person would deliberately let themselves freeze to death.


Jesus. You're right. It was probably due to that really cold Budweiser.

Or maybe she ran out of matches. l

PS Morticia mentioned legal limits in the workplace.

I wonder do they apply to landlords.

Obligations...responsbilities.

[Andrew49]

+1

I dont believe that an adult in the prime of their life is incapable of telling the difference between being cold and being in mortal danger.

Every human being and animal has a natural biological system that tells them when hypothermia is setting in and they have to get out of that situation. These systems dont function when alcohol or drugs are taken. No sober person would deliberately let themselves freeze to death.

You haven't the foggiest notion about hypothermia. Now you're implying that this mother was a drunk or drug abuser.

Hypothermia usually occurs from constant exposure to low temperatures. Any condition that decreases heat production, increases heat loss, or impairs thermo-regulation, however, may contribute.

The risk factors include:

Conditions that affect judgment (hypoglycemia),
Elderly
Inappropriate clothing,
Serious medical condition
Substance abuse
Homelessness
Living in a cold environment

And from the report it was stated that she was living in a cold environment. Nobody has suggested she was suffering the effects of alcohol or on drugs.

[Munnkeyman]

+1

I dont believe that an adult in the prime of their life is incapable of telling the difference between being cold and being in mortal danger.

Every human being and animal has a natural biological system that tells them when hypothermia is setting in and they have to get out of that situation. These systems dont function when alcohol or drugs are taken. No sober person would deliberately let themselves freeze to death.


Not necessarily so


Twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss
One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.
Source Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia


The report would have said otherwise if there was alcohol/ drug use that would have contributed to her death.

[Andrew49]

Not necessarily so, twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss
One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.

The report would have said otherwise if there was alcohol/ drug use that would have contributed to her death.

There is - for want of a better word - weird behaviour associated with the onset of hypothermia .... going under a bed or shelf or table ... huddling tightly in a corner ...

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

The risk factors include:

Conditions that affect judgment (hypoglycemia),
Elderly
Inappropriate clothing,
Serious medical condition
Substance abuse
Homelessness
Living in a cold environment

And from the report it was stated that she was living in a cold environmentWell obviously you have to be in a cold environment to get hypothermia! Jaysus! Thats like saying travelling by car is a risk factor of being in a car accident. You misunderstand the text you are plagiarising.

I refuse to believe that any human being would just sit there and let themselves die without being aware they are in mortal danger, unless their mind was affected by drugs or alcohol.

You cannot sleep through hypothermia, due to shivering. According to Wikipedia a person would have to go through three stages of hypthermia before dying. The second stage is characterised by violent shivering. You cannot die of hypothermia in your sleep unless youre drugged or drunk. Aons of evolution has designed humans and animals to wake up when our lives are in danger.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Not necessarily so, twenty to fifty percent of hypothermia deaths are associated with paradoxical undressing. This typically occurs during moderate to severe hypothermia, as the person becomes disoriented, confused, and combative. They may begin discarding their clothing, which, in turn, increases the rate of heat loss
One explanation for the effect is a cold-induced malfunction of the hypothalamus, the part of the brain that regulates body temperature. Another explanation is that the muscles contracting peripheral blood vessels become exhausted (known as a loss of vasomotor tone) and relax, leading to a sudden surge of blood (and heat) to the extremities, fooling the person into feeling overheated.

The report would have said otherwise if there was alcohol/ drug use that would have contributed to her death.Stop quoting from Wikipedia without using quote box, you dirty plagiariser. Jesus, what is it with you lefties, ye are so sneaky and dishonest.

This forum is the cut 'n' paste capital of the internet.

[Munnkeyman]

Stop quoting from Wikipedia without using quote box, you dirty plagiariser. Jesus, what is it with you lefties, ye are so sneaky and dishonest.

This forum is the cut 'n' paste capital of the internet.

No, I won't. You don't deserve referenced texts.

[morticia]

Needless to say the cold didn't effect the nuns as they were wearing several layers of clothes. Yet the children were always ALWAYS cold ... suffering from runny noses and chilblains on the hands and feet.

Constant exposure to (and living in) cold rooms can bring on hypothermia.

Indeed, that sounds ABSOLUTELY inhuman. Was this some sort of boarding school you were in?? You totally have my sympathy. Urrghh. Sounds a bit like the boarding school conditions in the UK described by some older people... whose parents were paying for the privilege.

I was nowhere near the nuns as a kid, but lived in a seriously draughty and dry rot ridden period house..... I can remember the thermometer in the hall reading 12 degrees and this was back in the 90s when it never snowed outside (well, rarely, anyway). I could only feel my feet for 3 months of the year... ya gotta love rising damp. To this day, an older relative insists that draughtiness repels dry rot and that one should never insulate a period house. He says this is perfectly OK carbon usage wise as only the "suburban" need much central heating. So unhealthy. He probably gets away with it as he's tall and well built; body mass really makes a difference in the insulation dept.

I have decided never to live in anything built before 1980, ever again.

Alcohol also tends to have an insulative effect to some extent; remember the p!ddled baker who survived the Titanic sinking... one of the few to survive immersion for 12 hours??

Re the legal situation, I don't know about domestic residences (as opposed to employment law), but as blocks of flats tend to be communally heated, I'd say there may well be liability in this case.

[C. Flower]

Well obviously you have to be in a cold environment to get hypothermia! Jaysus! Thats like saying travelling by car is a risk factor of being in a car accident. You misunderstand the text you are plagiarising.

I refuse to believe that any human being would just sit there and let themselves die without being aware they are in mortal danger, unless their mind was affected by drugs or alcohol.

You cannot sleep through hypothermia, due to shivering. According to Wikipedia a person would have to go through three stages of hypthermia before dying. The second stage is characterised by violent shivering. You cannot die of hypothermia in your sleep unless youre drugged or drunk. Aons of evolution has designed humans and animals to wake up when our lives are in danger.

You have a point about giving credit for sources, but your own contribution is an absolute disgrace of ill informed speculation and innuendo.

You have already been warned that this case is in /will be in the Courts and not to post insinuation, misinformation or speculation.
Banned for 24 hours.
<CFMOD>

[Andrew49]

Well obviously you have to be in a cold environment to get hypothermia! Jaysus! Thats like saying travelling by car is a risk factor of being in a car accident. You misunderstand the text you are plagiarising.

I refuse to believe that any human being would just sit there and let themselves die without being aware they are in mortal danger, unless their mind was affected by drugs or alcohol.

You cannot sleep through hypothermia, due to shivering. According to Wikipedia a person would have to go through three stages of hypthermia before dying. The second stage is characterised by violent shivering. You cannot die of hypothermia in your sleep unless youre drugged or drunk. Aons of evolution has designed humans and animals to wake up when our lives are in danger.

At risk of repeating repeating myself: You haven't the foggiest notion of hypothermia - either its causes or effects.

You can sleep through hypothermia: its called coma (sometimes leading to the heart actually stopping) - a person stops shivering as hypothermia progresses.

I hope you are writing this down now - give your fingers something to do and maybe generate some heat in your blood vessels and aid the supply of oxygen to your brain.

[Fing Fers]

You are quoting as fact, the statements of someone who stands to make money from a verdict of liability. How does this Craven know the flat was "perilously cold". Did he have a thermometer with him? <MODcf> How do we know <MODcf> as many people do, thereby putting themselves in danger.

Nobody has a right to free heat. Its nice to have and we should help those who cant fend for themselves. But if the socialist system occasionally breaks down, and people dont get their free handout, that does not make it the taxpayers fault if someone suffers.

We need to legislate to remove the taxpayers legal "duty of care" to citizens. And remove the parasitic lawyers who feed off it.

I think your off the mark a bit, here's whats said in the IT...


The inquest heard how Dublin City Council had turned off the heating in Ms Peavoy’s flat. The single mother had contacted the council about it but was told the heating would not be turned on as a number of flats around her were empty and because regeneration was ongoing.

Its not a case of the nanny state like you mention, as far as I know from reading the story, Dublin City Council turned off the heating. I take it those flats have a district heating system, prob no fire places. Sounds like the Council shut the whole heating system down due to the little amount of people left living in the flats. I dont hear any mention of the girl not being able to afford heat? All in all it should'nt of happend and as a result someone died, I dont think the girl had many options only to set the flat on fire. Its a sad story, you'll do well in politics who ever you are.

[Munnkeyman]

There is - for want of a better word - weird behaviour associated with the onset of hypothermia .... going under a bed or shelf or table ... huddling tightly in a corner ...

Definitely,
I can remember sleeping under a bivouac shelter with a bivi-bag a few times in near freezing conditions. After the shivering you can get quite lethargic and breathing becomes more forced. It is exhaustive to say the least.

[Andrew49]

Indeed, that sounds ABSOLUTELY inhuman. Was this some sort of boarding school you were in?? You totally have my sympathy. Urrghh. Sounds a bit like the boarding school conditions in the UK described by some older people... whose parents were paying for the privilege.

I was nowhere near the nuns as a kid, but lived in a seriously draughty and dry rot ridden period house..... I can remember the thermometer in the hall reading 12 degrees and this was back in the 90s when it never snowed outside (well, rarely, anyway). I could only feel my feet for 3 months of the year... ya gotta love rising damp. To this day, an older relative insists that draughtiness repels dry rot and that one should never insulate a period house. He says this is perfectly OK carbon usage wise as only the "suburban" need much central heating. So unhealthy. He probably gets away with it as he's tall and well built; body mass really makes a difference in the insulation dept.

I have decided never to live in anything built before 1980, ever again.

Alcohol also tends to have an insulative effect to some extent; remember the p!ddled baker who survived the Titanic sinking... one of the few to survive immersion for 12 hours??

Re the legal situation, I don't know about domestic residences (as opposed to employment law), but as blocks of flats tend to be communally heated, I'd say there may well be liability in this case.

Yeah ... kind of boarding schools ... two actually ... only these were called Industrial Schools. One of my jobs, in the one run by the nuns, was to check the cots in the nursery to see if any of the babies had died during the night - if I found a dead baby I had to place the body in a cold room [an ice-house] - kind of a walk in fridge. This is not a memory from way way back but from Ireland in the late-50s and early 60s.

[Citizens Defence]

I live in a traditional irish cottage with no insulation. A couple of times it got down to 1C inside the house. No bleeding heart leftie gives me any free heat. I dont get this house for free. I pay for it from what I can earn with my labour. The state or "society" gives me nothing.

I dont want any freebies from anyone. And I dont want to share what I have with anyone else. It is everyones responsibility to take care of themselves. Expecting someone else to give you free heat, housing or money, is a form of theft.



But society quite clearly gives you the internet. It gives you the computer you use. It manufactured the bricks, glass and wiring in your 'traditional cottage'. It puts clothes on your back and provides you food.

Eh, mister not-so-self-sufficient, what planet are you on.

Oh but wait - you bought these things with your own money that you earned, right.

But money is incapable of measuring an individuals social contribution or hard work. Infact, without society giving definition and value to money it is worth nothing but the paper it is written on.

I understand that this woman has two children. This indicates that she contributes something to society in the form of domestic labour and child rearing. Not - might I say - that an individuals social contribution or hard work is measurable - which it is not.

Your religious belief in the capitalist market has lead you down a road of twisted and irrational thinking.

[morticia]

Yeah ... kind of boarding schools ... two actually ... only these were called Industrial Schools. One of my jobs, in the one run by the nuns, was to check the cots in the nursery to see if any of the babies had died during the night - if I found a dead baby I had to place the body in a cold room [an ice-house] - kind of a walk in fridge. This is not a memory from way way back but from Ireland in the late-50s and early 60s.

Oh my Lord, I'm so sorry. I'm well aware of those places (sure aren't we all these days). It seems you've managed to survive, sanity intact (well done on that one!). I hope that there were, in the case of the places you were in, at least some examples of decent humanity..... :(:eek::mad:

[C. Flower]

I've seen this kind of situation before. A refurbishment to be done, and "decanting" of some families, and the most vulnerable left living on a building site.

I'm wondering what minimum standards apply to social housing?

Dublin City Council management did not, apparently, even send anyone to the inquest.

[morticia]

Dublin City Council management did not, apparently, even send anyone to the inquest.

OK, now I'm really upset!! At least it appears the poor woman got her kids out of there...Lord have mercy.

Is there anything we can do about this?? Does Dublin City Council have a complaints section??

[C. Flower]

OK, now I'm really upset!! At least it appears the poor woman got her kids out of there...Lord have mercy.

Is there anything we can do about this?? Does Dublin City Council have a complaints section??

Sadly, if she had kept her children with her, and they had all gone to bed together, they would probably have survived. But - 11 is brutal without heating.

I just feel that people should feel angry about this. There are a lot of decent public servants, but the bureaucracy that could deliver this is, as an entity, an obscenity.

[morticia]

Amen, sister. Fume, wail.... I've two kids and I've no idea how I would keep them semi-healthy without the heating... they spend all winter with runny noses and if it gets too cold inside, bronchitis is always the inevitable result. Well can I believe the stats that in 1930's UK and Ireland, one in 15 children died before the age of 5. Usually of pneumonia.

[Fraxinus]

Sadly, if she had kept her children with her, and they had all gone to bed together, they would probably have survived. But - 11 is brutal without heating.

I just feel that people should feel angry about this. There are a lot of decent public servants, but the bureaucracy that could deliver this is, as an entity, an obscenity.

I wonder will there be HSE style accountability here as well. The public service as a whole is failing the citizens horribly.

People are so cynical and angered by it from worst case scenarios like this one, to relatively minor inncidents when dealing with day to day stuff with different departments. Now there is a situation where people want to see privatisation and the supposed efficiency it brings.

[Munnkeyman]

I've seen this kind of situation before. A refurbishment to be done, and "decanting" of some families, and the most vulnerable left living on a building site.

I'm wondering what minimum standards apply to social housing?

Dublin City Council management did not, apparently, even send anyone to the inquest.


OK, now I'm really upset!! At least it appears the poor woman got her kids out of there...Lord have mercy.

Is there anything we can do about this?? Does Dublin City Council have a complaints section??

Dublin City Council
Housing Welfare Section
Upper Ground Floor, Block 1
Civic Offices
Wood Quay
Dublin 8
Tel: (01) 222 2233
Fax: (01) 222 2699
Email: housing.welfare@dublincity.ie (housing.welfare@dublincity.ie)

Ballymun area representatives.


Councillor John Lyons (Lab)
Councillor John Redmond (Lab)
Councillor Dr.Bill Tormey (FG)

Councillor Dessie Ellis (SF)
Councillor Paul McAuliffe (FF)


Minister Pat Carey TD (FF)
Noel Ahern TD(FF)
Roisin Shortall TD
I wonder in the G.E. will any party be gauche enough to use this politically?

[morticia]

Thanks! I will at some point, give out to someone.

[Andrew49]

I've seen this kind of situation before. A refurbishment to be done, and "decanting" of some families, and the most vulnerable left living on a building site.

I'm wondering what minimum standards apply to social housing?

Dublin City Council management did not, apparently, even send anyone to the inquest.

Ask the Justice Minister - apparently in his constituency social housing used to contain houses (over 600 houses in one area) where the fronts and backs of the houses were made from asbestos sheets ... window frames were made from white deal apparently that kind of wood is usually used for making matchsticks. I think the asbestos sheetings were replaced in the 90s - new fronts are now beauty board with pebbles glued on and plastic framed windows have been put in.

I believe Dermot wants to work in the Third World .. he doesn't have far to go if you ask me.

[youngdan]

Because the gardai said the flat was perilously cold. And how can you think like that in the light of all the money, our money, including Ms Peavoys, that the bankers are walking away with, free money. I dont really get your point IJFIW.

I don'y get your point of view. How did the bankers get MS Peavoy's money.

[Fraxinus]

I don'y get your point of view. How did the bankers get MS Peavoy's money.

Through taxes or benefit cuts.

[tea drinker]

I'm all for people having to live with their choices. Many people simply decided they didn't want to work and received enough to get by on. Someone with mental problems is not in this category though, and would likely not have the skills to maintain a job, and very doubtfully do it with a family. This is a horrible situation.
It's a damning indictment of our state and community.

[Apjp]

"Double"? I think you are being a bit modest there mouse.


Outside of "XXX" are spongers but "YYY" are not circus of thought...there is the question of not just moral but perhaps legal responsbility.

You cld appear before a court for subjecting an animal to such conditions.

A young woman?

A mother who managed to save her kids from the appalling fate that befell her.

Landlords have responsiblities.
It appears this woman was destined to freeze even if she had a few quid.

And if the lady was one of the supposed 'spongers' that IrishIrishWorkJob rails about...then she was 'sponging' very very little if she ended up dying in artic conditions.

I only wish the poor woman went to her mothers as well...:( I guess it was her home and she wanted to stay :confused:

[C. Flower]

I only wish the poor woman went to her mothers as well...:( I guess it was her home and she wanted to stay :confused:

Very likely there was no room. I think she's from a big family, from the RIP notice.

[Apjp]

Had she no friends or family support?
I got locked out off my house one night whilst staying in dublin, I was young and dumb and had just spent the pittance i had, buying cheap plonk in Leeson St in the mistaken belief in would help me get laid (we're talkin' late 80's here)
It was bitterly cold and I'd just realised I lost the keys to the gaff. I had no credit card so I improvised and went to The Salvation Army for a kip and a bowl of hot soup in the morning.
I can't understand why this woman did not go to friends, family, or even lit a fire to keep warm. What happened to instincts of survival?
Apart from that, my heart goes out to her kids.

my sentiments exactly. i mean i feel for her, but why stay on your own? why not go back to your mothers with the kids and in return cntribute what you can from your benefits and through working around the house etc. It just makes no sense. Surely to god the mother would not have refused her own daughter??

[C. Flower]

Ask the Justice Minister - apparently in his constituency social housing used to contain houses (over 600 houses in one area) where the fronts and backs of the houses were made from asbestos sheets ... window frames were made from white deal apparently that kind of wood is usually used for making matchsticks. I think the asbestos sheetings were replaced in the 90s - new fronts are now beauty board with pebbles glued on and plastic framed windows have been put in.

I believe Dermot wants to work in the Third World .. he doesn't have far to go if you ask me.

We've another thread here about house fires - a lot of these houses are tinder boxes without fire breaks between them in the roof.

I've been in houses in DLR Co Co ownership - a wealthy area - with windows nearly falling out and wiring poking out of the walls.

[C. Flower]

my sentiments exactly. i mean i feel for her, but why stay on your own? why not go back to your mothers with the kids and in return cntribute what you can from your benefits and through working around the house etc. It just makes no sense. Surely to god the mother would not have refused her own daughter??

Space!!!! There is a huge amount of serious overcrowding in Dublin - and down the road thousands of empty flats and houses.

[morticia]

my sentiments exactly. i mean i feel for her, but why stay on your own? why not go back to your mothers with the kids and in return cntribute what you can from your benefits and through working around the house etc. It just makes no sense. Surely to god the mother would not have refused her own daughter??

I think that under current welfare rules she may have needed to maintain a separate residence from her mother to qualify for most benefits?? could be wrong there?

[Apjp]

How about the Fathers get the kids and the Mothers pay child support?
Try running with that piece of equality legislation.

well thats ireland for you. dont get on the wrong side of yer missus. dad had problems for ages as social services just wouldnt believe what he said my alco mother was like when we were forced to live with her. he was treated like a criminal by the stupid authorities. I owe my life to that man and he doesnt have the same rights as my whino of a mother-having said that evrything was eventually resolved thank god and every case is different. most divorced parents prob are at least civil. my mother hasnt known what civil is for several years now.

[Legacy]

I felt compelled to contribute to this thread as I live in Ballymun and I am terribly, terribly upset by what happened that young woman. I currently live in a house but I lived in the flats for 16 years.

Some of the facts about the regeneration process are:

The Regeneration Project ran out of funding almost three years ago and as such many projects have stalled in the area. There are half-built housing estates dotted throughout which are now derelict as the building contractors have gone out of business. In the case of those being re-homed from Shangan, many of the tenants were rehomed over the past few years but a substantial minority still remain to be re-housed. They have been living in a nightmare with empty flats all around them, rising vandalism and criminality and, in this womans case, the withdrawal of essential heating for their homes.

Its worth noting that the day after this woman was found dead, the heating was turned BACK ON in the block where she lived. This woman was waiting to be homed but didnt have enough 'points' and was therefore way down the list of priorities. DCC's rationale for turning off the heating was that it was costing too much to heat the block of flats because most of them were empty and the heat was simply going straight out the windows. There is a centrally located heating system in Ballymun which heats all the flats to the same temperature. No individual has control of their heating. When you sign a tenancy agreement with DCC for a flat in Ballymun you agree to pay xx percentage on top of your rent for heating costs. So there is no question but that anyone in Ballymun gets 'free' heating. I know from local knowledge that this woman was up to date with her rent payments so there is no question of her having her heating 'cut off' because of that. Anyway as I said its impossible to cut off one flat from the centrally located system. The only control that the system has is to turn off the heating from the outside spine blocks inwards towards the central boiler and close down the pipes block by block.

This young woman had made endless efforts to try and get the heating issue resolved. When it was clear that DCC were not going to turn the heating back on she tried to get help with alternative heating costs. There are limited alternative heating options in these flats. Gas cylinders are banned because in the past they caused explosions in the flats, risking the lives of other nearby flat dwellers. There are no fireplaces so thats not an option either. The only option was electric heaters and trying to appropriately heat a large, cold concrete box with electric heaters would have been next to impossible.

She did have an electric fan heater and used her oven to dry clothes so she was trying to do the best she could I guess.

When this young woman went to sleep that night, I suggest that she would never have thought for a minute that she wouldnt wake up. Sure she was cold - but then again many people are. I know if I was in that situation I might have thought 'if I put enough clothes on me I will, at worst, have a bad nights sleep'. Thank God she brought her kids to her mothers home. They must have been feeling the cold very badly during that cold snap in January 2010.

As to whether she should have stayed in the flat or not - with hindsight of course she shouldnt. Hindsight is a great thing though. Many residents of those blocks have stories of being 'forced' to leave their homes to stay with friends ostly because of the fear they have of living in such isolated conditions riddled with anti social behaviour. The problem is that if you leave your home, the chances are that it will be burgled and your property either destroyed or stolen. The story in the link below is just one of a few I'm aware of. The picture of Shangan flats in the background gives you an idea of how many are empty and boarded up.

http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/3585/57/

Anyway, thats all I have to say. The Inquest has been adjourned til Feb 24th so best to leave the speculation out til then. The few things that are clear however is that she did die from hypothermia, she was a young woman with no underlying system conditions and that she has left two young children behind her.

[C. Flower]

Thank you Legacy for that very helpful post. I can't say how angry and sad I feel about this too.

Action needs to be taken in Ballymun and similar situations elsewhere in Dublin, where housing estates are half empty, to change the situation without any delay.

[youngdan]

Through taxes or benefit cuts.

That is one hell of a simple minded view.

You seem to think that the money being given to the banks is coming from a big pile of cash in Lenahans pocket.

You have the idiotic notion that money borrowed and given to the banks is the same as money not borrowed and not given to a poor person.

It is no wonder the country is in trouble.

[C. Flower]

With permission, I've posted Legacy's very informative and thoughtful post on the Political World blog -

http://itsapoliticalworld.wordpress.com/2011/01/30/a-young-mother-dies-of-hypothermia-in-ballymun-rachel-peavoy-r-i-p/

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

I've been in houses in DLR Co Co ownership - a wealthy area - with windows nearly falling out and wiring poking out of the walls.Thats what happens when you let the state own and manage peoples homes. The public sector bureaucrat who's job it is to manage them, doesnt give a ***** about anybody except himself. He's totally focussed on retiring at 55 with his tax free lump sum.

People should own or lease their own homes. Then at least someone would have an interest in maintaining them.

State owned housing projects like Ballymun have been a disaster and are now being phased out in most countries. Good riddance to them.

[morticia]

State owned housing projects like Ballymun have been a disaster and are now being phased out in most countries. Good riddance to them.

This is indeed true. Many examples of large flats in the UK with inadequate fire escapes, heating, insulation, damp proofing, the works. Not to mention the fact that it is probably hard to get the baby's buggy to the 13th floor if the lifts are out.....

What makes me laugh is that some local council in the UK is being prevented from demolishing one such block because it is of "architectural interest"

Spare me!!!

Would be interested to know if the flats in Ballymun and some parts of the city centre are the only such examples in the Republic, or do Cork/Limerick/Galway have their own such disasters??

[C. Flower]

Thats what happens when you let the state own and manage peoples homes. The public sector bureaucrat who's job it is to manage them, doesnt give a ***** about anybody except himself. He's totally focussed on retiring at 55 with his tax free lump sum.

People should own or lease their own homes. Then at least someone would have an interest in maintaining them.

State owned housing projects like Ballymun have been a disaster and are now being phased out in most countries. Good riddance to them.

In Ireland there is privately owned rental housing that would make a Ballymun flat look palatial.

[Munnkeyman]

This is indeed true. Many examples of large flats in the UK with inadequate fire escapes, heating, insulation, damp proofing, the works. Not to mention the fact that it is probably hard to get the baby's buggy to the 13th floor if the lifts are out.....

What makes me laugh is that some local council in the UK is being prevented from demolishing one such block because it is of "architectural interest"

Spare me!!!

Would be interested to know if the flats in Ballymun and some parts of the city centre are the only such examples in the Republic, or do Cork/Limerick/Galway have their own such disasters??

Hi Morticia,
Galway had it's own disasters in Rahoon on the west side of the city.
They were in an atrocious condition at the end of their life, badly maintained
inadequate heating, dark and dirty.
Here's an interesting documentary made in 1998.

YouTube - Spotlight On Rahoon

I was a student at the time and spent a summer slabbing the new houses
that were built there, a much better idea!!!
The residents were glad to see the back of those flats.

[ModestMouse]

Thats what happens when you let the state own and manage peoples homes. The public sector bureaucrat who's job it is to manage them, doesnt give a ***** about anybody except himself. He's totally focussed on retiring at 55 with his tax free lump sum.

People should own or lease their own homes. Then at least someone would have an interest in maintaining them.

State owned housing projects like Ballymun have been a disaster and are now being phased out in most countries. Good riddance to them.

No. That's what happens when local authority budgets are cut to the point that they are unable to service public housing.

State housing is only being phased out to provide demand for private rented housing owned by people wealthy enough to afford more than one property. Just one of the numerous Capitalist policies adopted by our governments in order to divert more wealth to the middle classes.

[Legacy]

No. That's what happens when local authority budgets are cut to the point that they are unable to service public housing.

State housing is only being phased out to provide demand for private rented housing owned by people wealthy enough to afford more than one property. Just one of the numerous Capitalist policies adopted by our governments in order to divert more wealth to the middle classes.

Actually its even worse than that. A substantial amount of the private housing that is replacing the public housing is every bit as bad (and arguably worse in some cases) than the ones being demolished. See this story from The Sunday Independent back in 2007

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/faulty-towers-hit-by-836422m-wrangle-1248587.html


The most ambitious urban regeneration project in the history of the state -- the €2.5bn rebuilding of Ballymun is now beset by a multi-million euro legal row over alleged shoddy workmanship as well as anti-social behaviour including drug taking, joyriding and wanton vandalism.

New private apartment blocks designed to be a showcase for the new Ballymun are in danger of becoming worse than the infamous towers they replaced, residents claim.

The apartment blocks in question are the ones at the junction of Santry Lane/Ballymun Road on the left as one goes towards the airport from the City Centre. They are in an appalling condition to this day..

[Newsy]

This young woman had made endless efforts to try and get the heating issue resolved. When it was clear that DCC were not going to turn the heating back on she tried to get help with alternative heating costs. There are limited alternative heating options in these flats. Gas cylinders are banned because in the past they caused explosions in the flats, risking the lives of other nearby flat dwellers. There are no fireplaces so thats not an option either. The only option was electric heaters and trying to appropriately heat a large, cold concrete box with electric heaters would have been next to impossible.

She did have an electric fan heater and used her oven to dry clothes so she was trying to do the best she could I guess.

When this young woman went to sleep that night, I suggest that she would never have thought for a minute that she wouldnt wake up. Sure she was cold - but then again many people are. I know if I was in that situation I might have thought 'if I put enough clothes on me I will, at worst, have a bad nights sleep'. Thank God she brought her kids to her mothers home. They must have been feeling the cold very badly during that cold snap in January 2010.

As to whether she should have stayed in the flat or not - with hindsight of course she shouldnt. Hindsight is a great thing though. Many residents of those blocks have stories of being 'forced' to leave their homes to stay with friends ostly because of the fear they have of living in such isolated conditions riddled with anti social behaviour. The problem is that if you leave your home, the chances are that it will be burgled and your property either destroyed or stolen. The story in the link below is just one of a few I'm aware of. The picture of Shangan flats in the background gives you an idea of how many are empty and boarded up.

http://www.dublinpeople.com/content/view/3585/57/

Anyway, thats all I have to say. The Inquest has been adjourned til Feb 24th so best to leave the speculation out til then. The few things that are clear however is that she did die from hypothermia, she was a young woman with no underlying system conditions and that she has left two young children behind her.

Thank you Legacy.

You have so very well, put a human face on this shameful tragedy that should never have happened.

This woman is a sister, a mother, a daughter, a friend.......she could be from any of our families.......she is a person.......she died in circumstances that should never have gotten to the stage they did. She tried. She tried. And she tried.

Sometimes, all the trying in the world, just isn't enough, because the ears of those who are in positions to make the conditions and circumstances better, are closed. There can be a coldness and a hardness that is closed to the suffering of humanity. That truly is shameful.

[IrishJobsForIrishWorkers]

Whenever you give socialist bureaucrats power over peoples lives, then people will die. 90% of what the state allocates to helping people will be swallowed up by public sector salaries and pensions. Only 10% actually goes to the people in need.

State bureacracies grow rapidly like a virus when there is money available as more and more layers of bureaucrats are added. The more public spending is increased, the more the system becomes loaded down with parasite bureacrats, gaming the system, trying to hit the tax free pension jackpot.

Working people can take care of themselves better than any state can. We must cut taxes on the working poor to zero. No working person making less than 50k should pay any tax at all. Fund the cut by abolishing most forms of welfare which doesnt work.

[Kev Bar]

Legacy - Appreciate the backdrop to that tragedy

[Legacy]

Legacy - Appreciate the backdrop to that tragedy

You're welcome.

I was just listening to Newstalk a few moments ago and they covered the story. They interviewed Fr. Peter McVerry who said that just a few weeks ago, during our most recent cold weather, he had a woman come to him who was in the exact same situation as Rachel. Her heating had been turned off to facilitate the regeneration and she had three small kids and was absolutely freezing. He asked her to make representations to DCC but she got no positive response. He said he managed to get a number of electric heaters for her which helped the family over the worst of it.

Newstalk said they will be watching the Rachel Peavoy case with interest and invited someone from DCC to come on and comment. They reported that Noel Ahern TD had made representations on Rachel's behalf to DCC and they wanted to know about the outcomes of those representations.

Im glad to see this story is being picked up by the main media. I could be wrong but I havent heard anything on RTE about it. Has anyone else?

[C. Flower]

There is a rumour that RTE may report on this on Primetime tonight. Even if this is true I find it disgraceful that there has been no news report on her inquest. They must be aware of it has been reported in every newspaper and all over the internet.

Legacy, there have been at least 9 comments on your blog, one of them from someone who also has first hand experience of a similar appalling act of negligence by the authorities.

http://itsapoliticalworld.wordpress.com/

[Griska]

I could only half-listen, but it was mentioned on Pat Kenny this morning.

[Andrew49]

There is a rumour that RTE may report on this on Primetime tonight. Even if this is true I find it disgraceful that there has been no news report on her inquest. They must be aware of it has been reported in every newspaper and all over the internet.

Legacy, there have been at least 9 comments on your blog, one of them from someone who also has first hand experience of a similar appalling act of negligence by the authorities.

http://itsapoliticalworld.wordpress.com/

I think Pat Kenny's 'Frontline' will NOT cover it. Pat wants to talk about 'jobs-jobs-jobs' tonight. Judging by the attention RTE has given this tragedy though, Rachel's death might just as well have been the result of some skirmish far faraway from the frontline. It will be interesting to see if this is raised ,,, and how Pat Kenny deals with it.

[Legacy]

There is a rumour that RTE may report on this on Primetime tonight. Even if this is true I find it disgraceful that there has been no news report on her inquest. They must be aware of it has been reported in every newspaper and all over the internet.

Legacy, there have been at least 9 comments on your blog, one of them from someone who also has first hand experience of a similar appalling act of negligence by the authorities.

http://itsapoliticalworld.wordpress.com/

Thanks Cactus. I noticed a fair bit of twitter pressure today on Miriam O'Callaghan. I hope they cover it - if not today then tomorrow. I agree that its incredible there has been no news report on her inquest. They are definitely aware of it because these news bods watch Twitter like a hawk!

I just read that other story on the blog. Appalling isnt the word for it. I feel guilty here sitting in my warm house knowing there is a mother and five kids somewhere not more than a couple of hundred yards away who are freezing cold through no fault of their own.

I personally hold Ballymun Regeneration Ltd equally responsible to DCC for this situation. They are the ones charged with managing the building site which is Ballymun. I dont use the term 'building site' lightly either. The whole area is officially designated as a building site so as to allow complete control of all aspects of the space. I believe its the largest building site in Europe as a matter of fact.

The regeneration process as been going on some 10 or 11 years now and because they have run out of money it looks like we will be left with half built housing estates, pyrite damaged homes and underdeveloped waste sites. Meanwhile those families who didnt make it to their new homes before the regen stalled may be condemned to live in sub-human conditions for many years to come. A great legacy eh?

[ang]

Interesting that Michael Martin today promoted Cllr Mary Fitzpatrick DCC to Housing and Urban Renewal

http://maryfitzpatrick.blogspot.com/

[morticia]

Interesting that Michael Martin today promoted Cllr Mary Fitzpatrick DCC to Housing and Urban Renewal

http://maryfitzpatrick.blogspot.com/


He's betting de 'lectorate gives Cyp the Order of the Boot so?? Probably correctly.....

[ang]

He's betting de 'lectorate gives Cyp the Order of the Boot so?? Probably correctly.....

I had been thinking of how "insensitive" it may have been to promote someone from a local area authority involved in such a tragedy to the Housing and Urban Renewal portfolio.

[Griska]

I had been thinking of how "insensitive" it may have been to promote someone from a local area authority involved in such a tragedy to the Housing and Urban Renewal portfolio.

Do you think that even crossed Martin's mind? Personally, I doubt it.

[C. Flower]

Thanks Cactus. I noticed a fair bit of twitter pressure today on Miriam O'Callaghan. I hope they cover it - if not today then tomorrow. I agree that its incredible there has been no news report on her inquest. They are definitely aware of it because these news bods watch Twitter like a hawk!

I just read that other story on the blog. Appalling isnt the word for it. I feel guilty here sitting in my warm house knowing there is a mother and five kids somewhere not more than a couple of hundred yards away who are freezing cold through no fault of their own.

I personally hold Ballymun Regeneration Ltd equally responsible to DCC for this situation. They are the ones charged with managing the building site which is Ballymun. I dont use the term 'building site' lightly either. The whole area is officially designated as a building site so as to allow complete control of all aspects of the space. I believe its the largest building site in Europe as a matter of fact.

The regeneration process as been going on some 10 or 11 years now and because they have run out of money it looks like we will be left with half built housing estates, pyrite damaged homes and underdeveloped waste sites. Meanwhile those families who didnt make it to their new homes before the regen stalled may be condemned to live in sub-human conditions for many years to come. A great legacy eh?

And at the same time, thousands of skilled building workers are unemployed and thousands of finished homes are empty. It shouldn't be impossible to square this circle.

If it is a building site then I believe it is "in the ownership" of the contractor/s ?

[Legacy]

And at the same time, thousands of skilled building workers are unemployed and thousands of finished homes are empty. It shouldn't be impossible to square this circle.

If it is a building site then I believe it is "in the ownership" of the contractor/s ?

Yes it is but its complicated in that Ballymun Regeneration Ltd (BRL) is a company that was set up by Dublin City Council to plan and manage the regen. Because it is a separate corporate entity however, it most likely operates at a legal arm's length from DCC - but Im no legal expert on this.

BRL have a range of Health, Safety and Environmental Statements on their website - some of which cannot be reproduced without permission so I cant quote any of them here. Here is a link to their website:

http://www.brl.ie/

Some things however can be reproduced and this one was of particular interest.


Document No: 1
Project Safety, Health, Environmental & Community Management Strategy

This is Ireland’s single largest urban reconstruction scheme and one of the largest regeneration schemes in all of Europe. This consequently creates substantial challenges in relation to Health and Safety.

There are about 20,000 inhabitants currently residing in the Ballymun area. There are 10 schools: 7 Primary schools (with approximately 3000 pupils), and 3 Secondary schools (with approximately 900 pupils). We place the health and safety of all residents in the area (including, not least the children) to the forefront of our concerns.

There is a need however, to maintain quality of life for those living and operating businesses within and around the new developments, and present a positive image to the local community and through traffic.



It strikes me that Rachel Peavoy's (and others) quality of life was severely compromised by whoever was responsible for disconnecting the heating to that block of flats.

No doubt there will be plenty of 'buck passing' going on in the coming weeks. I wonder, if as a result of this inquest, the heating has been turned on for those tenants who still await re-housing? I sincerely hope so. I have good contacts with a community organisation here in the area and I will ask them to raise this question with BRL. Mind you, their history of getting any response from that company is abysmal to say the least. BRL are very much despised in the area for their total lack of respect for local concerns and they have an unsurpassed ability to simply turn a blind eye to the most serious of local issues.

[Kev Bar]

Yes it is but its complicated in that Ballymun Regeneration Ltd (BRL) is a company that was set up by Dublin City Council to plan and manage the regen. Because it is a separate corporate entity however, it most likely operates at a legal arm's length from DCC - but Im no legal expert on this.

BRL have a range of Health, Safety and Environmental Statements on their website - some of which cannot be reproduced without permission so I cant quote any of them here. Here is a link to their website:

http://www.brl.ie/

Some things however can be reproduced and this one was of particular interest.



It strikes me that Rachel Peavoy's (and others) quality of life was severely compromised by whoever was responsible for disconnecting the heating to that block of flats.

No doubt there will be plenty of 'buck passing' going on in the coming weeks. I wonder, if as a result of this inquest, the heating has been turned on for those tenants who still await re-housing? I sincerely hope so. I have good contacts with a community organisation here in the area and I will ask them to raise this question with BRL. Mind you, their history of getting any response from that company is abysmal to say the least. BRL are very much despised in the area for their total lack of respect for local concerns and they have an unsurpassed ability to simply turn a blind eye to the most serious of local issues.

Legacy,
Surely DCC must have some legal obligations to a tenant.

We saw that charming policeman recently being dragged to court over the unfit state of his rented property...so there must be some legally enforceable standards.

Tragic that DCC are behaving in the same manner as a rogue pig.

[Legacy]

There was another article related to this in today's IT. This family lived in the same block as Rachel at the time of her death and have first hand experience of the conditions there.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0205/1224289077170.html?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d4c9f1f30a3613c,0


DUBLIN CITY Council repeatedly told a family living in the Ballymun tower block in which Rachel Peavoy died of hypothermia last year, that their flat was warm enough to live in, a resident has claimed.


Ms Sherry had advised Ms Peavoy the night before she died to get heaters from social services, as she had done after becoming frustrated with the response from the council.

“She said she hadn’t been sleeping, she couldn’t get the heat into her and that is when I said to her, ‘Make sure you go up’ [to a social worker] but she didn’t get the chance, she was gone the next day,” said Ms Sherry.

I'm glad the family have, what seems to be, good legal counsel. There are a lot of local people here very angry and distressed by what happened this young woman. The community are seeking answers from BRL and Dublin City Council so if I have any update I will post about it.

Ironically my little foster son said to me the other day (he overheard me talking on the phone to one of the local organisations organising a response to what happened to Rachel) and he said 'Do you remember the boy you gave a lift to the pictures a few weeks ago with me? That was his Mammy that froze to death in the flats and he is always talking about it. He keeps saying that he came over from his Nanny's and found his Mam dead in the bed'. These kids had been openly discussing it and yet my little fella hadnt even spoken to me about it before. Some of these kids have become numb to trauma at this stage :(

I remember the little lad very well. He was a very quiet, blond, slight, timid little kid sitting in the back of the car. He was just 'one of those strays' that I often end up jaunting here or there to different places - football, cinema, gaelic, etc :) Little did I realise at the time who he was. Life throws up some strange connections at times, eh?

[C. Flower]

There was another article related to this in today's IT. This family lived in the same block as Rachel at the time of her death and have first hand experience of the conditions there.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0205/1224289077170.html?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d4c9f1f30a3613c,0


I'm glad the family have, what seems to be, good legal counsel. There are a lot of local people here very angry and distressed by what happened this young woman. The community are seeking answers from BRL and Dublin City Council so if I have any update I will post about it.

Ironically my little foster son said to me the other day (he overheard me talking on the phone to one of the local organisations organising a response to what happened to Rachel) and he said 'Do you remember the boy you gave a lift to the pictures a few weeks ago with me? That was his Mammy that froze to death in the flats and he is always talking about it. He keeps saying that he came over from his Nanny's and found his Mam dead in the bed'. These kids had been openly discussing it and yet my little fella hadnt even spoken to me about it before. Some of these kids have become numb to trauma at this stage :(

I remember the little lad very well. He was a very quiet, blond, slight, timid little kid sitting in the back of the car. He was just 'one of those strays' that I often end up jaunting here or there to different places - football, cinema, gaelic, etc :) Little did I realise at the time who he was. Life throws up some strange connections at times, eh?

It's hard to get those two children out of the mind as being orphaned is such a blow to life chances. I wonder was it said in the inquest that she was found by her children. :(

[Legacy]

It's hard to get those two children out of the mind as being orphaned is such a blow to life chances. I wonder was it said in the inquest that she was found by her children. :(

No, it said her brother and someone else that I cant recall at the moment found her. Im not even sure if the kid was actually with them when they found her and the papers didnt report it. Of course its just as likely that he has created this false memory from what he remembers of the events of the day. Trauma can do that very easily.

[Griska]

It's hard to get those two children out of the mind as being orphaned is such a blow to life chances. I wonder was it said in the inquest that she was found by her children. :(

The children will not only suffer understandable grief and shock, the likelyhood is that there will be enormous anger issues much later on.
This, untreated, can have huge repercussions- relationships, education etc.

[PaddyJoe]

The Irish Times is back on the story today(Saturday 5/2/2010):

DUBLIN CITY Council repeatedly told a family living in the Ballymun tower block in which Rachel Peavoy died of hypothermia last year, that their flat was warm enough to live in, a resident has claimed.

Dawn Sherry, a friend of Ms Peavoy’s, lived in one of only three occupied flats in the block on Shangan Road in which the body of the 30-year-old mother of two was found on January 11th, 2010.

An inquest last week was told that the council had turned off the heating in Ms Peavoy’s flat. After contacting the council, she was told the heating would not be turned on because a number of flats around her were empty and because regeneration was ongoing.

After repeated complaints to the council, inspectors did come to measure the temperature, but according to Ms Sherry, the inspectors only checked one room, which was warmer than the rest of the flat.

Ms Sherry and her three sons (aged 17, 15 and 10), lived two floors above Ms Peavoy and to combat the cold, the entire family had been sleeping in the living room.

“They were telling me there was heat in the flat when there wasn’t. They were saying that they can test only one room and I said, ‘Even body heat would make a room a little bit warmer’.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0205/1224289077170.html

[Mervyn Crawford]

The capitalist state intentionally creates a layer of bureaucrats to brutalise the working class and ensure that things are done in the interest of the wealthy only.

The Ballymun regeneration is a con foisted on the residents.

A major access from the M50 to the city centre cuts right through the area. The roar of the M50 itself is only a few hundred metres away from most residents. The proposed Metro link from the city centre to the airport will follow the same route on the surface, with trains running every two minutes.

Residents have had a long history of battles with the council over the conditions of their environment, lifts, heating, damp ingress and of course the drug gangs. It was the actions of the residents themselves that greatly curbed the activities of the drug peddlers.

Ballymun under the regeneration is now the site of two tax write-off hotels; and a state-of-the-art gardai station. The dignity and warmth of Ballymun residents is a well known aspect of the Dublin personality.

The regeneration, apart from making the area look more appealing for the developers and retailers (Ikea emporium), would have been designed to atomise the Ballymun community. The cynics and bullies who slither to the top in the state bureaucracies have an in-built hatred for the working class, understand only to well their role in oppressing them - often of course through stock phrases of 'investigation', 'concern', 'action', etc etc.

The diabolicalally cruel treatment of Rachel Peavoy and the other afflicted residents is nothing less than sadism.

The Ballymun people must set up their own public investigation into the death of Ms Peavoy. In this they should seek the help of other communities in Dublin and of staff in Dublin City Council who are also under the cosh of the bureaucrats.

[C. Flower]

I must say, that while I find your language on the formal side :p Mervyn C. , the idea of an independent enquiry might be worth while - but the wishes of Rachel Peavoy's family and friends should surely be respected and supported first and foremost ?

[Andrew49]

There was a great reaction to the MINUS 3% All-Island Conference which was organised by Dublin’s sustainable energy agency, Codema and took place on the 25th November 2010 in the Wood Quay Venue. The conference heard how Dublin City Council has cut its carbon emissions by over 700 tonnes by implementing the MINUS 3% project into the local authority. Campaigns to encourage changes in staff behaviour, the adoption of eco-friendly driving methods by the council’s fleet drivers, virtualisation of computer servers and energy upgrades to the lighting system have all contributed to Dublin City Council making a significant impact on reducing its carbon footprint.

Dublin City Council is a partner in the MINUS 3% Project, a European initiative which aims to reduce energy consumption in local authorities by at least 3 per cent each year, with an overall reduction target of 33 per cent by 2020. Along with Dublin, there are five other cities involved in the project; Derry, Graz (Austria), Malacky (Slovakia), Maribor (Slovenia) and Teruel (Spain). The conference highlighted the work that has been carried out to improve energy efficiency in local authorities around the country and to highlight future plans for increasing energy-efficiency even further. The MINUS 3% project is a practical example of how large organisations can use less energy effectively.

Dublin City Council's Minus 3% Project - Source (http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/greening-communities/going-greener/dublin-citys-minus-3-proj/index.xml)

I'm hearing that, in the retiring Minister for Justice's constituency, street lights in at least one local authority area have been switched off for the past 3 nights. So even as this despicable Government retire to their comfortable pensions their depredations against the low-waged, the poor and the vulnerable live on.

No doubt these people will spout the usual 'tough decisions have to be taken' line but in reality it isn't hard to attack vulnerable groups - they are the least able to fight back.

[Porcupine]

I must say, that while I find your language on the formal side :p Mervyn C. , the idea of an independent enquiry might be worth while - but the wishes of Rachel Peavoy's family and friends should surely be respected and supported first and foremost ?

Considering that the Dublin City Coroner who is sitting over the death inquest is himself appointed by, and his salary paid by, the Dublin City Council, there is an obvious conflict of interest given that any findings he makes may have implications for liability etc. The least he should do is to appoint a Jury in this inquest, which he has NOT done although the inquest was first started in the Coroners Court in October 2010. It is quite right that the family has now got legal advice and representation and have called for a public enquiry to ensure that a fair hearing will be conducted.

[Porcupine]

Just heard through the grapevine that the inquest date of 24 February may be postponed. Doesn't surprise as its the day before the election and the press moratorium on the election will be in effect so this case could get a lot of attention.... maybe somewhere someone has decided that it may be embarrassing or damaging for the Rachel Peavoy story to be reported the day before the election????

[morticia]

Just heard through the grapevine that the inquest date of 24 February may be postponed. Doesn't surprise as its the day before the election and the press moratorium on the election will be in effect so this case could get a lot of attention.... maybe somewhere someone has decided that it may be embarrassing or damaging for the Rachel Peavoy story to be reported the day before the election????

Very likely. Grrr!

[C. Flower]

Just heard through the grapevine that the inquest date of 24 February may be postponed. Doesn't surprise as its the day before the election and the press moratorium on the election will be in effect so this case could get a lot of attention.... maybe somewhere someone has decided that it may be embarrassing or damaging for the Rachel Peavoy story to be reported the day before the election????


If true, a very shabby reason for the delay and added stress on Rachel Peavoy's family.

[whydontwe]

You die of hypothermia at home in Ireland in 2011.....if those that the electorate elected... didn't or don't or won't (in the next election)....consider any one's human, moral rights...but only want to feather their own nests!! Surely it's a simple enough concept...that the elected 'look after' the poorest...and less enfranchised...in the society that...only a few days before the election...they were shaking hands with...and holding baby's hands etc etc...??? Why should I vote??...afraid I'm not being convibnced guys!!!

[Mervyn Crawford]

C. Flower

I do not agree with the raising of the issue of the 'family's wishes' in the manner that you have done. Particularly in the context of first criticising the tone of my comment.

Militant polemics on behalf of the socialist struggle have long established calls on the working class to action to defend it's own interest. This is an entirely legitimate and progressive method. The use of the imperative is not an instruction; but a statement of the necessity imposed by the demands of the struggle in this class society. Especially the need for working people to take an independent path.

The cruel death of Rachel Peavoy is a new step in the attacks of the capitalist state on the working class.

None of the so-called leaders of the working class, whether political, trade union or 'community based' have fought to lead the working class into battle with the capitalist class and it's state apparatus.

The issue of Ms Peavoy's death is political in it's sharpest sense. Her death does not restrict the outcome to the wishes of the family, which you have raised. Her death is an issue for the whole community and the whole class.

Dublin City Council are reaching new depths of savagery in their attacks on workers. These attacks need determined, organised and political resistance.

Ms Peavoy was from a proud working class comunity. An enquiry into Ms Peavoy's death
organised by the community itself is an established means to expose the means by which the state is oppressing the working class; and is of course therefore also a means to mark the sacrifice that she made.

[C. Flower]

C. Flower

I do not agree with the raising of the issue of the 'family's wishes' in the manner that you have done. Particularly in the context of first criticising the tone of my comment.

Militant polemics on behalf of the socialist struggle have long established calls on the working class to action to defend it's own interest. This is an entirely legitimate and progressive method. The use of the imperative is not an instruction; but a statement of the necessity imposed by the demands of the struggle in this class society. Especially the need for working people to take an independent path.

The cruel death of Rachel Peavoy is a new step in the attacks of the capitalist state on the working class.

None of the so-called leaders of the working class, whether political, trade union or 'community based' have fought to lead the working class into battle with the capitalist class and it's state apparatus.

The issue of Ms Peavoy's death is political in it's sharpest sense. Her death does not restrict the outcome to the wishes of the family, which you have raised. Her death is an issue for the whole community and the whole class.

Dublin City Council are reaching new depths of savagery in their attacks on workers. These attacks need determined, organised and political resistance.

Ms Peavoy was from a proud working class comunity. An enquiry into Ms Peavoy's death
organised by the community itself is an established means to expose the means by which the state is oppressing the working class; and is of course therefore also a means to mark the sacrifice that she made.

Point taken, Mervyn Crawford, I think you're right on this. I also think that there's a need to organise action to stop DCC making people live in these inhuman conditions.

[Legacy]

I managed to get a text question read out on DCU FM this week when they had a debate amongst the DNW constituency members. I asked them all for their comments on the death of Rachel Peavoy from hypothermia in her council flat.

The presenter only allowed Dessie Ellis from SF to comment. He said that her death was a tragic one and needed investigation because of the implications for the Council, etc but at the moment it was one in which it was difficult to comment on until the full inquest hearing took place. Very quickly he was interrupted by, I think, Bill Tormey who said 'we cant say there are implications for the Council yet, etc'. The presenter cut the question off at that stage.

Pat Carey didn't attend the debate.

I have started the debate locally with one of the Community umbrella organisations putting it on their agenda. I'm not going to let this one go.

Like everyone, we are in a bit of a limbo until the full Inquest is heard. At that point I think the community will be better placed to make comment and get behind (or call for) a public inquiry.

[Mervyn Crawford]

Legacy
Any link I try to DCU FM seems to be broken.

Is it possible do you know to replay the discusion including Desi Ellis?
Or do you remember more of that?

I am asking because SF are not for the working class, as they imply. Although Adams trumpets he will burn the bondholders and shut down Anglo, SF have also stated they will repay the Anglo debt (the good bank/bad bank split a la Fine Gael no less).

SF are riding the backs of the working class, engaging in the worst sort of patronising and encouragement of backwardness. The last development SF wish to see is a mass movement from below. Their 'identification' with working people is very much akin to that of the Socialist Party.

Communities such as Ballymun have a fervent desire to seize the political initiative and link up in common cause with the whole country AND internationally. The Egytian revolution is being watched very closely by working people in Ireland for lessons to be learned and dangers to be exposed.

[Porcupine]

I managed to get a text question read out on DCU FM this week when they had a debate amongst the DNW constituency members. I asked them all for their comments on the death of Rachel Peavoy from hypothermia in her council flat.

The presenter only allowed Dessie Ellis from SF to comment. He said that her death was a tragic one and needed investigation because of the implications for the Council, etc but at the moment it was one in which it was difficult to comment on until the full inquest hearing took place. Very quickly he was interrupted by, I think, Bill Tormey who said 'we cant say there are implications for the Council yet, etc'. The presenter cut the question off at that stage.

Pat Carey didn't attend the debate.

I have started the debate locally with one of the Community umbrella organisations putting it on their agenda. I'm not going to let this one go.

Like everyone, we are in a bit of a limbo until the full Inquest is heard. At that point I think the community will be better placed to make comment and get behind (or call for) a public inquiry.


Are we surprised that Bill Tormey jumped to the defence of the council. Isn't he the DCC NW area (Ballyman/Finglas) CHAIRPERSON? He must be the only doctor who does not know about hypothermia.... In his capacity as NWD chairperson, his reaction to the Rachel Peavoy case is quite disgraceful and I hope no one in NWD will vote for him. In fact FG should be quite ashamed of their candidate!

Rachel was messed around by the council before her death. Her family is still being messed around by the council after her death. Although the coroner (note: the Dublin City Coroner whose service is provided by the Dublin City Council) and the family/lawyers etc all agreed on the inquest date of the 24February, and that witnesses for the family have taken the trouble to make sure they are available to attend that day, they have now been told that the case has been taken off and a new date has yet to be arranged!!! Under normal circumstances, the coroner would have heard the evidence on the set date (24 February) and then adjourn further if necessary.... why is he bending over to suit the council especially if the council had earlier indicated that they did not want to participate in the inquest at all??? Can someone suggest a reason why the case should not be heard (or more importantly REPORTED) on 24 February 2011, the day of the moratorium before the GE?

Let us not forget about Rachel Peavoy. The council cannot and should not be allowed to sweep this under the carpet.

[Mervyn Crawford]

Inquiry into Rachel Peavoy’s death

I believe the Ballymun community should hold an initial meeting to raise the know facts surrounding Rachel Peavoy’s death.

This meeting must demand that Dublin City Council release all information they hold.

Experience has taught working people that state institutions are organised to oppress them. A call on DCC staff to support the community in their fight for the truth will immediately undermine the power that the DCC wield over the working class of Dublin.

DCC will resist every attempt to get to the truth. Independent investigation, including the calling of witnesses and expert opinion, by the Ballymun community will be the only means that Ballymun people will have to bring to light what led to the cruel death of Rachel Peavoy.

[Mervyn Crawford]

www.dcufm.com

The link to DCU FM is working now; and the interviews are linked on the main page.Tormey is ex-Labour. He went independent after Shortall out-maneuvered him as the Labour candidate. After two(?) failed general election outings he then joined Fine Gael

[Mervyn Crawford]

On the DCU FM panel discussion:

Ellis stated that the issue is 'sensitive': that the truth needs to be found; who were the people who may have been "negligent". Finally he emphatically said the truth WILL come out. Implying the processes of the state will do that.

Ellis is a representative of the system that is designed to oppress the working class. To try and sow illusions in the role of the DCC and the Gardai is his role.
However, the daily struggle of those suffering under the attacks of the DCC and the Government tells working people the opposite of the claims of Ellis

The DCC were not 'negligent'. What was done to Rachel Peavoy in her own home was brutal in the extreme. To terrorise someone from their home is the action of loyal servants of the rich and powerful. The action of someone who has outright contempt for the 'small' person.

DCC workers who oppose the terror tactics of the Council should organise themselves to come out in support of the Dublin communities.

[Porcupine]

On the DCU FM panel discussion:

The DCC were not 'negligent'. What was done to Rachel Peavoy in her own home was brutal in the extreme. To terrorise someone from their home is the action of loyal servants of the rich and powerful. The action of someone who has outright contempt for the 'small' person.

DCC workers who oppose the terror tactics of the Council should organise themselves to come out in support of the Dublin communities.

Judging from the way the Dublin City Coroner is bending over backwards to "postpone" the inquest to suit the timetable of his employers the Dubln City Council, I wouldn't be surprised if enough doubts will be "created" as to minimise any potential damage to the council's reputation in the inquest.

In addition to Bill Tormey, the head of DCC, namely the Lord Mayor Gerry Breen, is also standing for FG in DNW, there should be many opportunities for voters to ask him a few l'il questions....

[Mervyn Crawford]

Tormey was beaten by Shortall with the help of the then Militant, now the Socialist Party. There is not a scrap of principle amongst ANY of those standing in the election.

Where was the concerted campaign by Clare Daly as the Aer Lingus cabin crew were being led up the garden path by IMPACT? The Socialist Party are committed to the unions; and the unions are committed to defending this capitalist system.

If DCC workers are to link up with Dublin communities they have to do it outside the unions. The unions will attempt to create a sectional interest in supposedly 'defending' 'their' members. The real interest of DCC staff lies with the Dublin working class and not with the rotten organisations that are SIPTU, IMPACT et al.

A seasoned Fianna Failer has absolutely nothing to teach a hardened union hack.

[Mervyn Crawford]

"Irish general election campaign: All main parties committed to savage cuts"
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/irel-f15.shtml

The election campaign is a fraud. The Hobson’s choice of bourgeois ‘democracy’. There is nothing to gain from supporting any of the candidates. Indeed, there is everything to lose by letting pass any of the lies of those claiming to represent the people.

It is essential that the deceits of the so-called leaders of the working class are laid bare for everyone to see. The struggle against the capitalist system requires clear-sightedness by the working class.

[Mervyn Crawford]

The Detroit people fighting the shutting off of their heat:

Video: Wanda Scott tells her story
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/feb2011/vide-f12.shtml

[ThomasB]

It seems very easy in this "civilised society", all the Good people of Ireland must have been out that night I guess. !!!!

[Legacy]

Legacy
Any link I try to DCU FM seems to be broken.

Is it possible do you know to replay the discusion including Desi Ellis?
Or do you remember more of that?

I am asking because SF are not for the working class, as they imply. Although Adams trumpets he will burn the bondholders and shut down Anglo, SF have also stated they will repay the Anglo debt (the good bank/bad bank split a la Fine Gael no less).

SF are riding the backs of the working class, engaging in the worst sort of patronising and encouragement of backwardness. The last development SF wish to see is a mass movement from below. Their 'identification' with working people is very much akin to that of the Socialist Party.

Communities such as Ballymun have a fervent desire to seize the political initiative and link up in common cause with the whole country AND internationally. The Egytian revolution is being watched very closely by working people in Ireland for lessons to be learned and dangers to be exposed.

Heres a link to the debate

http://www.dcufm.com/?p=1857

PS - Should have read the rest of the posts first - I see you found it already

[Legacy]

Good news. Apparently the family had a meeting with the Coroner today to argue against the postponement of the Inquest and as a result it has been re-instated for this Thursday 24th February. Don't have this verified completely yet as I just saw it posted on another forum. Fingers crossed

[Legacy]

Yep it appears it is definitely going ahead on the 24th but its not expected to conclude on that day.

[C. Flower]

Yep it appears it is definitely going ahead on the 24th but its not expected to conclude on that day.

Thanks for the update. I hope that evidence will be given by Dublin City Council. Perhaps I misunderstand the convention, but it seems disrespectful to me that they didn't send anyone to the first day.

[Mervyn Crawford]

Legacy

Thank you for checking the DCU FM issue for me.

Could you please tell me the other site where you read the information concerning the coroner?

(My broadband is very poor and it can take a very long time for me to do a search.)

Information may come to light via the coroner's office; but the true role of Dublin City Council will generally be obscured.

There really is only one road open to working people, and that is independent action. All the organisations of the state, and all the political parties and groups who promote illusions in the state, are attempting to tie the hands of working people and blindfold them.

[Legacy]

Legacy

Thank you for checking the DCU FM issue for me.

Could you please tell me the other site where you read the information concerning the coroner?

(My broadband is very poor and it can take a very long time for me to do a search.)

Information may come to light via the coroner's office; but the true role of Dublin City Council will generally be obscured.

There really is only one road open to working people, and that is independent action. All the organisations of the state, and all the political parties and groups who promote illusions in the state, are attempting to tie the hands of working people and blindfold them.

I replied to your PM. It was from a thread on Politics.ie

I see the mainstream media finally reported on the case. It was on the Six one news today.

The inquest has been adjourned for another two weeks for more statements. RTE reported that the inquest was told that DCC did not turn on the heating for the winter period (as is usual) and heard from a neighbour who lived in the same block who said that she had used electric heaters and was faced with a resultant bill something in the order of €1300.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0224/peavoyr.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Andrew49]

Comparisons with other European countries

Healy (2003) is described, by the EC Public Health web site, as ‘the most extensive study on excess winter mortality in Europe’. The research used data for 14 EU countries (those which were member states during the years 1994 to 1997) for 1988 to 1997 (data for later years were not available for all countries), and for each expressed the number of ‘additional’ winter deaths as a percentage of the average number of deaths in a four-month
‘non-winter’ period (a statistic which is called the ‘Increased Winter Mortality index’ in Table 4 of GROS's current release). The results were as follows (listing the countries in order of their index values):

10% - Finland
11% - Germany, Netherlands
12% - Denmark, Luxembourg
13% - Belgium, France
14% - Austria
16% - Italy, overall mean for the 14 countries
18% - Greece, UK
21% - Ireland (Republic), Spain
28% - Portugal

The paper also gave figures for the countries within the UK: England 19%; Wales 17%; Northern Ireland 17% and Scotland 16%. Therefore, in percentage terms, increased winter mortality in Scotland was the same as the overall figure for the 14 EU countries covered by the study.

The EC Public Health web page comments on these results as follows: ‘the premature death toll is higher in countries with a warmer winter climate. Housing standards are a potential factor behind this paradox. Houses in countries with comparatively warm climates all year round tend to lose heat easily, so people find it hard to heat their homes when winter arrives. This is especially true in Portugal, Spain, and Ireland, where winter temperatures are comparatively mild and excess mortality rates in winter very high.
Conversely, houses in countries with severe climates – such as Scandinavia – have to be thermally efficient to retain warmth.’

Source (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/increased-winter-mortality/increased-winter-mortality-background-info.pdf)

Has anybody in Dublin City Council read this report or any report?

All-ireland Policy Paper on Fuel Poverty and Health 2007 (http://www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/45784/1/9138.pdf)

Reading the 2007 report we should expect more deaths like Rachel's as the table on page 10 bears out - almost 70 deaths due to hypothermia at the height of the 80s recession. No doubt if Rachel's death was caused by a plane crash in heavy fog the media would have been all over it -the churches would have got involved (and got the media spotlight) with prayers and services but as Rachel died in an area of social, political and economic exclusion it's only her family and friends who are able to draw attention to this incident of official and criminal neglect.

There will be a scurrying now to cover 'ass' and what's the betting that the tragic victim in this incident will be blamed!

[C. Flower]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0225/1224290837359.html


THE NEIGHBOUR of a young mother of two who died of hypothermia in Ballymun flats told an inquest she had made a number of complaints to Dublin City Council about the lack of heating in the complex.
Rachel Peavoy (30), of Shangan Road, Ballymun, Dublin, was found dead in her flat on January 11th, 2010. The pathologist found she had suffered hypothermia.
Her neighbour Linda McLoughlin told an inquest at Dublin Coroner’s Court yesterday: “I complained on nine different occasions to Dublin City Council . . . no one ever got back to me.”
Ms McLoughlin said she also made representations to her allocations officer regarding the lack of heating.
“My allocations officer said they would send an inspector over but never did.”
Ms McLoughlin said the heating was turned off every summer and turned back on again in September. However, in September 2009, it never came back.
“I had to use electric heaters as the flat was freezing . . . my ESB bill for that period was €1,300 . . . usually it would be around €300, maybe €350 for the same period.”
Ms McLoughlin said she was friends with Ms Peavoy as both their sons went to the same school.
“A few days before she died, she [Rachel] joked to me that it was warmer outside her flat than inside,” Ms McLoughlin told the inquest.
Ms McLoughlin said both her and her three sons all had flu over the Christmas period of 2009 as a result of being freezing in their flat.
“After Rachel passed away I complained further about the lack of heating. They [Dublin City Council] turned it back on for a week, maybe two, and then it went back off again.”
Ms Peavoy’s friend of 25 years, Michelle Quigley, said she had stayed at Rachel’s apartment on Shangan Road a number of weeks before Ms Peavoy had died.
“I live in Co Westmeath, so spent the night in Rachel’s flat when I was up for a school reunion in November. I decided not to have a shower at the flat as it was too cold and I didn’t want to catch a cold.
“I noticed the curtains in Rachel’s room were blowing like the window was open, it wasn’t.
“After I returned from the school reunion we sat on the couch in the living room with two duvets and a halogen heater,” Ms Quigley said.
“I kept my coat on as it was too cold.”
Ms Peavoy’s sister Leontia also confirmed Rachel’s apartment was freezing at yesterday’s inquest.
“I was a regular visitor and each time I kept my coat on as it was so cold,” she said.
“Rachel had told me she had complained several times to Dublin City Council . . . on the day we found Rachel’s body there was no heat in the flat.”
The Dublin City Coroner adjourned the case until March 24th at the request of John Keogh, counsel for Dublin City Council.
Mr Keogh said the council wished to obtain further statements.


Some more details of the inquest from the Independent.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tragic-mum-begged-for-heating-2555834.html?start=2

[Mervyn Crawford]

People in Ballymun and throughout Dublin should establish just how many people are without heat, power or any utilities through the actions of Dublin City Council or any utility provider.

DCC staff should also blow the whistle on the actions of DCC. They must ignore instructions from SIPTU, IMPACT and the other unions to wait for and comply with 'due process'. The unions are in effect agents of the government inside the working class which STOP the working class from organising in any meaningful way.

State inquiries will be used to hide the truth.

The staff of DCC and the communities of Dublin must unite and establish workers commissions to investigate the links between DCC, the unions and private developers.

[C. Flower]

People in Ballymun and throughout Dublin should establish just how many people are without heat, power or any utilities through the actions of Dublin City Council or any utility provider.

DCC staff should also blow the whistle on the actions of DCC. They must ignore instructions from SIPTU, IMPACT and the other unions to wait for and comply with 'due process'. The unions are in effect agents of the government inside the working class which STOP the working class from organising in any meaningful way.

State inquiries will be used to hide the truth.

The staff of DCC and the communities of Dublin must unite and establish workers commissions to investigate the links between DCC, the unions and private developers.

They should demand that the heating is turned on - or more to the point that the remaining families from the flats are given suitable new homes built to modern building standards - surely DCC owns a large amount of "affordable housing" its unable to sell, that could be used ?

[Porcupine]

According to the post below, all the remaining tenants have since been relocated (perhaps more quickly as a result of Rachel's death?) and this is one of the reasons which the DCC presented in court in its bid to argue that the witnesses should not be heard as the conditions [of the flats] is no longer an issue. What a bizzarre argument! Even prisons have heating and why are private landlords governed by law while public authority landlord can do what they like. Is there one law for the powerful and another for the poor?

"The evidence given by the witnesses was reported in detail in some papers. Perhaps this information would shed a light on the reason why this case had initially been taken off the list for 24 February, and was only reinstated after a heated debate in the Coroner’s Court?

What was most striking, to me, is the behaviour of the DCC, which in earlier hearings, had told the court they had nothing to say and did not wish to participate in the inquest, and later fought hard to have it adjourned to a later date. When the inquest was resumed yesterday, the first thing the DCC tried to do, in a most unusual manner, was to object to the witnesses giving evidence in open court! Their arguments, which included the fact that the flats have since been detenanted (implying that the circumstances/coldness is no longer relevant?!) were of course rightly rejected by the Coroner. Moreover, their rep jumped up again even after Rachel’s sister was sworn in in the witness box, trying to stop her from giving evidence on the allegation that what she was about to say was “hearsay”! Why was the DCC trying so hard to stop the witnesses giving evidence???

The rep did confirm that a DCC housing manager will be giving evidence in due course, and that his statement will be ready in 2 weeks. But given the case had been adjourned from January, and the fact that this manager was identified as being present in the public area in court yesterday, one wonders why he couldn’t have sent in his statement earlier and given his evidence in court yesterday? We even see him scurrying out of the Coroner’s Court after the lawyers on the Rte newsclip ! "

[C. Flower]

According to the post below, all the remaining tenants have since been relocated (perhaps more quickly as a result of Rachel's death?) and this is one of the reasons which the DCC presented in court in its bid to argue that the witnesses should not be heard as the conditions [of the flats] is no longer an issue. What a bizzarre argument! Even prisons have heating and why are private landlords governed by law while public authority landlord can do what they like. Is there one law for the powerful and another for the poor?

"The evidence given by the witnesses was reported in detail in some papers. Perhaps this information would shed a light on the reason why this case had initially been taken off the list for 24 February, and was only reinstated after a heated debate in the Coroner’s Court?

What was most striking, to me, is the behaviour of the DCC, which in earlier hearings, had told the court they had nothing to say and did not wish to participate in the inquest, and later fought hard to have it adjourned to a later date. When the inquest was resumed yesterday, the first thing the DCC tried to do, in a most unusual manner, was to object to the witnesses giving evidence in open court! Their arguments, which included the fact that the flats have since been detenanted (implying that the circumstances/coldness is no longer relevant?!) were of course rightly rejected by the Coroner. Moreover, their rep jumped up again even after Rachel’s sister was sworn in in the witness box, trying to stop her from giving evidence on the allegation that what she was about to say was “hearsay”! Why was the DCC trying so hard to stop the witnesses giving evidence???

The rep did confirm that a DCC housing manager will be giving evidence in due course, and that his statement will be ready in 2 weeks. But given the case had been adjourned from January, and the fact that this manager was identified as being present in the public area in court yesterday, one wonders why he couldn’t have sent in his statement earlier and given his evidence in court yesterday? We even see him scurrying out of the Coroner’s Court after the lawyers on the Rte newsclip ! "

Shocking that Dublin City Council appears to want to evade a thorough inquest into the circumstances of Rachel Peavoy's death.

[jimmymalone]

Comparisons with other European countries

Healy (2003) is described, by the EC Public Health web site, as ‘the most extensive study on excess winter mortality in Europe’. The research used data for 14 EU countries (those which were member states during the years 1994 to 1997) for 1988 to 1997 (data for later years were not available for all countries), and for each expressed the number of ‘additional’ winter deaths as a percentage of the average number of deaths in a four-month
‘non-winter’ period (a statistic which is called the ‘Increased Winter Mortality index’ in Table 4 of GROS's current release). The results were as follows (listing the countries in order of their index values):

10% - Finland
11% - Germany, Netherlands
12% - Denmark, Luxembourg
13% - Belgium, France
14% - Austria
16% - Italy, overall mean for the 14 countries
18% - Greece, UK
21% - Ireland (Republic), Spain
28% - Portugal

The paper also gave figures for the countries within the UK: England 19%; Wales 17%; Northern Ireland 17% and Scotland 16%. Therefore, in percentage terms, increased winter mortality in Scotland was the same as the overall figure for the 14 EU countries covered by the study.

The EC Public Health web page comments on these results as follows: ‘the premature death toll is higher in countries with a warmer winter climate. Housing standards are a potential factor behind this paradox. Houses in countries with comparatively warm climates all year round tend to lose heat easily, so people find it hard to heat their homes when winter arrives. This is especially true in Portugal, Spain, and Ireland, where winter temperatures are comparatively mild and excess mortality rates in winter very high.
Conversely, houses in countries with severe climates – such as Scandinavia – have to be thermally efficient to retain warmth.’

Source (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/increased-winter-mortality/increased-winter-mortality-background-info.pdf)

Has anybody in Dublin City Council read this report or any report?

All-ireland Policy Paper on Fuel Poverty and Health 2007 (http://www.lenus.ie/hse/bitstream/10147/45784/1/9138.pdf)

Reading the 2007 report we should expect more deaths like Rachel's as the table on page 10 bears out - almost 70 deaths due to hypothermia at the height of the 80s recession. No doubt if Rachel's death was caused by a plane crash in heavy fog the media would have been all over it -the churches would have got involved (and got the media spotlight) with prayers and services but as Rachel died in an area of social, political and economic exclusion it's only her family and friends who are able to draw attention to this incident of official and criminal neglect.

There will be a scurrying now to cover 'ass' and what's the betting that the tragic victim in this incident will be blamed!

Wow!! That's quite shocking. Thanks for that information. Why is the figure for Ireland 5% higher than Scotland?

[morticia]

Wow!! That's quite shocking. Thanks for that information. Why is the figure for Ireland 5% higher than Scotland?

Scotland always gets snow every year (even during the mild 1990s, early Noughties); they're probably that bit more careful about heat retention. The trad cottages there have smaller windows and thick stone walls. Eastern Scotland in particular has a pretty harsh climate.

[PaddyJoe]

The Rachel Peavoy inquest was opened and adjourned once again today. The Prime Time piece on the story that was due tonight has been postponed because of the adjournment.

At today’s inquest, Dublin City Council engineer Brendan Furlong denied that the heating in Ms Peavoy’s flat was turned off, saying it was working at the time of her death.
Mr Furlong, a senior executive engineer specialising in heating, ventilation and air conditioning, said a weather compensation system was in place at the Shangan Road flats and the heating was only disabled when outside temperatures reached about 20 degrees Celsius.
However, he said air temperatures could be lowered and heat lost by an infiltration of air into a flat, or neighbouring flat. “There could be a dissipation of heat and lowering of temperatures if an adjacent flat had infiltration through draughts et cetera."

Area housing manager in Ballymun, Donal Barron, told the inquest he was told by Inspector Andrew Waters that the windows were open in the flat at the time of Ms Peavoy's death.
Dublin city coroner Dr Brian Farrell adjourned the case after Dr Ciaran Craven said this was new evidence.
The case was adjourned until Wednesday April 6thhttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0324/breaking58.html

[whydontwe]

PJMcG....thanks for keeping up with that.

[C. Flower]

The Rachel Peavoy inquest was opened and adjourned once again today. The Prime Time piece on the story that was due tonight has been postponed because of the adjournment.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0324/breaking58.html

I find it hard to understand why this inquest could not be run on consecutive days until it's finished. It can't be conducive to the peace of mind of the family, or to coherent thought, to have it interrupted constantly.

[whydontwe]

I find it hard to understand why this inquest could not be run on consecutive days until it's finished. It can't be conducive to the peace of mind of the family, or to coherent thought, to have it interrupted constantly.

Sadly CF...it's just down to 'optics'...and to hell with the affected.
Have to say g'night all now...Arthir playin havoc.

[jinnyjoe]

Sadly CF...it's just down to 'optics'...and to hell with the affected.
Have to say g'night all now...Arthir playin havoc.

I have listened to this on the 9pm news tonight, and had followed this harrowing story previously on this very thread (thanks to the thread starter) and I still find it hard to believe that this poor women would of had her windows open on a freezing cold night, this is obviously my opinion, I have heard from the inquest that she had a bath, and am in the mind that just maybe she opened the bathroom window slightly to let out the condensation but (IMO) would a slightly open bathroom window in a supposedly heated flat contribute to a death from hypothermia?? I had showers and baths during that time of year and opened the bathroom window too. That is my opinion, take from it what you will. Lots of questions to be answered still and my heart and prayers go out to her poor family and I hope they eventually find the justice they need.

[C. Flower]

I have listened to this on the 9pm news tonight, and had followed this harrowing story previously on this very thread (thanks to the thread starter) and I still find it hard to believe that this poor women would of had her windows open on a freezing cold night, this is obviously my opinion, I have heard from the inquest that she had a bath, and am in the mind that just maybe she opened the bathroom window slightly to let out the condensation but (IMO) would a slightly open bathroom window in a supposedly heated flat contribute to a death from hypothermia?? I had showers and baths during that time of year and opened the bathroom window too. That is my opinion, take from it what you will. Lots of questions to be answered still and my heart and prayers go out to her poor family and I hope they eventually find the justice they need.

I only half heard the report on RTE, but the evidence on whether or not the windows were open seemed far from clear. There seemed to be some hearsay. I hope there is a thorough report on proceedings in tomorrows newspapers.

A person might be cold at 17 degrees (the lower end of what might be allowable in a workplace) but they surely would not die of hypothermia.

It doesn't add up. Hopefully there will be some conclusive evidence by the time this inquest is complete.

[jinnyjoe]

I only half heard the report on RTE, but the evidence on whether or not the windows were open seemed far from clear. There seemed to be some hearsay. I hope there is a thorough report on proceedings in tomorrows newspapers.

A person might be cold at 17 degrees (the lower end of what might be allowable in a workplace) but they surely would not die of hypothermia.

It doesn't add up. Hopefully there will be some conclusive evidence by the time this inquest is complete.

Agreed C, I wasn't suggesting for a minute the windows were open, but just imo suggesting what could have happened, If I'm being really honest I don't think any windows were open, but that again is my opinion. But we shall wait and see and hope that the powers of real justice will prevail (well we can but hope)

[Porcupine]

It was a most extraordinary day in terms of proceedings.

Garda inspector Andrew Waters who was NOT present at the scene at the time allegedly told the DCC housing manger months ago that the windows in the flat were open. This information was not in the garda report furnished to the Coroner. Three gardai who were present at the scene gave evidence. They were completely unaware of this. One would imagine that, an experienced garda, trained to make observations, would have noticed and made a note if a window was open at a scene of an unnatural death. It was likely that the curtains were drawn – as one would in the middle of winter when there is snow outside –especially if one is taking a bath. Evidence was given last month (before this open window theory was put forward) by a friend who stayed in Rachel’s flat who said that she was changing in her room and thought the window was open as the curtains were moving. Rachel told her it wasn’t, but it was always like that. It was just the draft form the ill fitted (single glazed?) window. The coroner dismissed this as something that happened before Rachel’s death – but would a drafty window have mended itself? Would the gardai have checked deliberately behind curtains to see if the windows were open on a snowy day? This Senior Housing manager apparently was told this months ago, before Christmas, and had told his lawyers. How come this important piece of information was never brought to the attention of the Coroner in earlier hearings? How come he did not mention it in his sworn statement read out in Court, but only reluctantly recalled it at the prompt and lead of the DCC’s newly appointed senior counsel? Was it a red herring?

If the Engineer was correct, were tax payers paying for a whole block of mainly vacant flats to be heated to a spec of 24-55C whenever the temperature falls below 20C? And that these residents would have heating normally 6am to 11pm, but 24hours non stop during the Christmas holiday period? Wow, that would also mean that the heating would be on most of the year as Met Eireann data shows that the mean maximum daily temperature at Dublin Airport, over a 30 year period, was below 20C even in July and August!

According to the Met Eireann monthly summary (http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly_summarys/jan10.pdf), January 2010 was “the coldest January for at least 25 years”. Is there any reason this supposedly working “weather compensation system” as described by the engineer not kicked in automatically at Shangan Road?


So were all the residents who complained of the cold flats lying? Did they also lie about meeting with this same Housing Manager after Rachel’s death and were told by him that Rachel had taken her own life? Was it true that the odd day the heating was off was a day when the system was undergoing repairs – not as the evidence which suggested that Rachel was without heating for months.

The cause of death was hypothermia. It appears that the Coroner has been allowing possible suggestions to be put forward that it had nothing to do with the council whose Engineers and Managers were on top of things, provided heating and dealt with any complaints efficiently and effectively. Then why did correspondence which were read out suggest that after visiting Rachels flat before Christmas 2009, an engineer from the Council reported that nothing could be done and recommended that Rachel should be transferred to more suitable accommodation?

To say that there were inconsistencies was an understatement. Let’s see what the Coroner makes of it. Does he look at what is more likely to be the truth or does he give the Council the “benefits of doubts” given it’s the Council who signs his paycheck?

It was hearbreaking, when Rachel's elderly mother got up, at the end of the day, when the Coroner decided to adjourn in light of this new hearsay evidence allegedly from a garda inspector who was neither at the scene nor in court, and told the coroner that she would not be back on the next date as she had heard enough lies.

[C. Flower]

It was a most extraordinary day in terms of proceedings.

Garda inspector Andrew Waters who was NOT present at the scene at the time allegedly told the DCC housing manger months ago that the windows in the flat were open. This information was not in the garda report furnished to the Coroner. Three gardai who were present at the scene gave evidence. They were completely unaware of this. One would imagine that, an experienced garda, trained to make observations, would have noticed and made a note if a window was open at a scene of an unnatural death. It was likely that the curtains were drawn – as one would in the middle of winter when there is snow outside –especially if one is taking a bath. Evidence was given last month (before this open window theory was put forward) by a friend who stayed in Rachel’s flat who said that she was changing in her room and thought the window was open as the curtains were moving. Rachel told her it wasn’t, but it was always like that. It was just the draft form the ill fitted (single glazed?) window. The coroner dismissed this as something that happened before Rachel’s death – but would a drafty window have mended itself? Would the gardai have checked deliberately behind curtains to see if the windows were open on a snowy day? This Senior Housing manager apparently was told this months ago, before Christmas, and had told his lawyers. How come this important piece of information was never brought to the attention of the Coroner in earlier hearings? How come he did not mention it in his sworn statement read out in Court, but only reluctantly recalled it at the prompt and lead of the DCC’s newly appointed senior counsel? Was it a red herring?

If the Engineer was correct, were tax payers paying for a whole block of mainly vacant flats to be heated to a spec of 24-55C whenever the temperature falls below 20C? And that these residents would have heating normally 6am to 11pm, but 24hours non stop during the Christmas holiday period? Wow, that would also mean that the heating would be on most of the year as Met Eireann data shows that the mean maximum daily temperature at Dublin Airport, over a 30 year period, was below 20C even in July and August!

According to the Met Eireann monthly summary (http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly_summarys/jan10.pdf), January 2010 was “the coldest January for at least 25 years”. Is there any reason this supposedly working “weather compensation system” as described by the engineer not kicked in automatically at Shangan Road?


So were all the residents who complained of the cold flats lying? Did they also lie about meeting with this same Housing Manager after Rachel’s death and were told by him that Rachel had taken her own life? Was it true that the odd day the heating was off was a day when the system was undergoing repairs – not as the evidence which suggested that Rachel was without heating for months.

The cause of death was hypothermia. It appears that the Coroner has been allowing possible suggestions to be put forward that it had nothing to do with the council whose Engineers and Managers were on top of things, provided heating and dealt with any complaints efficiently and effectively. Then why did correspondence which were read out suggest that after visiting Rachels flat before Christmas 2009, an engineer from the Council reported that nothing could be done and recommended that Rachel should be transferred to more suitable accommodation?

To say that there were inconsistencies was an understatement. Let’s see what the Coroner makes of it. Does he look at what is more likely to be the truth or does he give the Council the “benefits of doubts” given it’s the Council who signs his paycheck?

It was hearbreaking, when Rachel's elderly mother got up, at the end of the day, when the Coroner decided to adjourn in light of this new hearsay evidence allegedly from a garda inspector who was neither at the scene nor in court, and told the coroner that she would not be back on the next date as she had heard enough lies.

Surely there were other tenants who could give evidence as to whether or not the heating was on ? From the best of my memory, Rachel Peavoy was not the only tenant remaining in the block.

This third hand hearsay if it was a criminal case would not be allowable.

I hope that Rachel's friends and family can gather themselves up to go one more time to this hearing.

The Press reports are very inadequate. Anyone listening to RTE would have got the impression that direct evidence had been given that the windows were open.

After what happened in the Moriarty Tribunal, we sadly can't just assume that all public servants tell the truth in Court.

[Porcupine]

Surely there were other tenants who could give evidence as to whether or not the heating was on ? From the best of my memory, Rachel Peavoy was not the only tenant remaining in the block.

This third hand hearsay if it was a criminal case would not be allowable.

I hope that Rachel's friends and family can gather themselves up to go one more time to this hearing.

The Press reports are very inadequate. Anyone listening to RTE would have got the impression that direct evidence had been given that the windows were open.

After what happened in the Moriarty Tribunal, we sadly can't just assume that all public servants tell the truth in Court.


Rachel's sister and neighbour gave evidence on the last occasion on 24 February about the coldness of the flats. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0224/peavoyr.html.

Evidence was also given about how warm the flats used to be when the block was fully occupied and the fact that residents used to dry luaundry on the heated floor, and how warm Rachel's flat was when her sister returned 3 days after her death, to collect school uniforms for the boys. I think she said when the door opened, it was so warm her glasses steamed up.

Linda McLoughlin gave evidence that she ran up an electricity bill of €1300 (against a "normal" bill of around €300 if the heating was on) as she had to use electric heaters. She had to seek help from the Vincent de Paul as a result to help her pay the bill. I am sure the ESB and Vincent de Paul could verify this - but if what the Engineer said was true - then Linda must have made it up!

RTE did not report on this case at all initially -selective reporting is irresponsible and it is unprofessional, to say the least, for media to report on the "evidence" of the open windows without giving details and that the 3 gardai who were first at the scene had not noticed such an important observation. Maybe they weren't doing their jobs? If this psychic inspector knew the windows were open without having been at the scene, why did he not include this in the garda report?????? Maybe he should be asked to solve all murder cases with his supernatural power....

[Kev Bar]

The woman would hardly have gone out of her way to lobby to have heating turned on that was already on.

Strange that in all the coverage at the time, the council never thought to "correct" the "erroneous" facts being disseminated by the media about regeneration and the problem posed by heating empty flats.
And now they are saying the heating was on?
So, given the gravity of the situation, did they not check at the time.

Some of the more sceptical posters on this thread may feel their rather harsh stance somewhat vindicated by the presence of valium and opiates.
There was debate about the possibility of sleeping in such cold conditions.
The combination of benzodiazepam and opiates, however, can knock people out and can certainly induce heavy sleep.
And if it was, as the Gardai said, so 'cold'...perhaps assistance sleeping was seen as a pretty attractive option.
Anyhow irrespective of any medication the young lady may have required or taken,
hypothermia should not be a possible consequence.

[Porcupine]

The woman would hardly have gone out of her way to lobby to have heating turned on that was already on.

Some of the more sceptical posters on this thread may feel their rather harsh stance somewhat vindicated by the presence of among medications of valium and opiates.
There was debate about the possibility of sleeping in such cold conditions.
The combination of benzodiazepam and opiates, however, can knock people out and can certainly induce heavy sleep.
And if it was, as the Gardai said, so 'cold'...perhaps assistance sleeping was seen as a pretty attractive option.
Anyhow irrespective of any medication the young lady may have required or taken,
hypothermia should not be a possible consequence.

Kev, Your are spot on. There was no alcohol in Rachel's body. All the medications found were of a theurapeutic range. Rachel suffered from anxiety – which is hardly surprising given she was living in such unsuitable condition with her two young boys, and all her pleas for heating had fallen on deaf ears. Even her GP wrote to the Council in early December 2009 to request heating or heating assistance as she had recurrent chest/lung infections.

The Council’s lawyer tried to present a picture of her overdosing on meds– I think he tried to say 8 drugs – but was quickly corrected that it was 8 substances – a tablet can contain several substances. The pathologist agreed that some of the drugs may cause drowsiness (maybe helping her sleep), but under normal circumstances, ie if a person remains alive, then the drugs will metabolise in the body. In other words, the person is expected to wake up as the drugs wear off, unless of course, hypothermia sets in as the ambience temperature causes the body temperature to fall, and the victim never regains consciousness.

It was a disgrace the way the Housing manager denied ever telling the other residents at a meeting that Rachel took her own life. There were many present and I am sure they will be prepared to testified otherwise. So if this senior public servant is telling the truth -did Rachel open her windows when it was snowing outside, took drugs and tried to kill herself by getting hypothermia ??!!!

[jinnyjoe]

The woman would hardly have gone out of her way to lobby to have heating turned on that was already on.

Strange that in all the coverage at the time, the council never thought to "correct" the "erroneous" facts being disseminated by the media about regeneration and the problem posed by heating empty flats.
And now they are saying the heating was on?
So, given the gravity of the situation, did they not check at the time.

Some of the more sceptical posters on this thread may feel their rather harsh stance somewhat vindicated by the presence of among medications of valium and opiates.
There was debate about the possibility of sleeping in such cold conditions.
The combination of benzodiazepam and opiates, however, can knock people out and can certainly induce heavy sleep.
And if it was, as the Gardai said, so 'cold'...perhaps assistance sleeping was seen as a pretty attractive option.
Anyhow irrespective of any medication the young lady may have required or taken,
hypothermia should not be a possible consequence.

Agreed

[C. Flower]

Shame, shame, shame.

[Kev Bar]

Kev, Your are spot on. There was no alcohol in Rachel's body. All the medications found were of a theurapeutic range. Rachel suffered from anxiety – which is hardly surprising given she was living in such unsuitable condition with her two young boys, and all her pleas for heating had fallen on deaf ears. Even her GP wrote to the Council in early December 2009 to request heating or heating assistance as she had recurrent chest/lung infections.

The Council’s lawyer tried to present a picture of her overdosing on meds– I think he tried to say 8 drugs – but was quickly corrected that it was 8 substances – a tablet can contain several substances. The pathologist agreed that some of the drugs may cause drowsiness (maybe helping her sleep), but under normal circumstances, ie if a person remains alive, then the drugs will metabolise in the body. In other words, the person is expected to wake up as the drugs wear off, unless of course, hypothermia sets in as the ambience temperature causes the body temperature to fall, and the victim never regains consciousness.

It was a disgrace the way the Housing manager denied ever telling the other residents at a meeting that Rachel took her own life. There were many present and I am sure they will be prepared to testified otherwise. So if this senior public servant is telling the truth -did Rachel open her windows when it was snowing outside, took drugs and tried to kill herself by getting hypothermia ??!!!

I wasn't aware of that assertion at the meeting and its denial.
But that makes the possibility of the council lying about the heating issue far more credible.
It sounds like a campaign of evasion.
Suicide?
Well a few drinks combined with a few tablets would be a far more certain way to die.
Somehow, I just don't think many people would be aware of the efficacyor liklihood of hypthermia.

Where was Ms Peavoy found?
If she was trying to kill herself via hypothermia, she would hardly go to bed and cover herself up.

[PaddyJoe]

As far as I recall from what I've read about the case Rachel was first found by relatives?
They would surely remember whether there were windows open in the flat when they got in?

[Porcupine]

Rachel was found her by sister and a friend who got worried when they could not contact her. 3 gardai arrived at the scene soon after them - none of these 5 people had recalled that the wiondows were open. One would imagine that at least one of these 5 people, including 3 trained gardai, would have noticed an open window on a snowy day at the scene of an unnatural death, and made a note of it. It was likely that the curtains were drawn.

Inspector Andrew Waters who allegedly "knew" this information was not at the scene at all. This information was not included in the gardai report either. Nor was it in the statement sworn by the Senior Manager who claimed he was told months ago by Inspector Andrew Waters. He was very reluctant to give the name of the Inspector when asked by the Coroner. How come such a vital piece of information, so beneficial to the Council's claim that the heating was working, was not produced until the final minutes of the inquest. Is it a red herring they made up to stall the inquest and to create a "plausible" scenario and pass on the blame? It was a most unusual way to proceed - and i hope if what the Senior Manager said was true (I think his credibility was severely challenged ) , the Gardai will investigate internally how this Inspector knew about the windows if three of his colleagues did not notice it, and why this important information was passed on to the Housing Manager and not the Coroner!

We hope the truth will come out in the end. Was the Council lying the the heating being working, or did the Ballymun residents made up all their stories???

[C. Flower]

The Irish Mail on Sunday has a page report on the inquest.

They publish extracts from Council documents.

The wording on one "Communication Record" to Noel Ahern from Niall McCullagh dated 23/12/09 says

" I spoke to Catherine Quinlan this morning. They have arranged from someone from the heating section to go and look at this - She says that they may actually have to move her to another flat. This does not mean a transfer, but moving her to a similar type of flat that is not as isolated - she says that it can often be difficult to keep a flat heated if all the other flats around it are unoccupied. This is probably what the maintenance people meant when they said she would "Probably have to get a transfer".

It is not at all clear from this whether or not the heating was turned on or not.

In late 2009, from another memo, it was clear that the heating was on "they checked the temperature of the flat and found that it was below the desired levels. In view of this they have set the distribution temperature at maximum."

The problem was assumed to be broke or open windows in adjacent empty flats.

The Council had a "target date of January 27th" to repair the heating, and she died 16 days before that. The heating was finally repaired in June.

Problems of cold and damp were logged in November 2009 and on two occasions logged as not fixed.

Donal Barron the Ballymun Housing Manager was informed of the problems. Was he the main person responsible for management of repairs and heating services ? It was he who made the claim that the windows were open. "The Irish Mail on Sunday understands that the Gardai who attended the scene did not discuss the case with Insp. Waters". In that case, where did he get his information from ?

It is still completely unclear from the news reports whether any evidence was given to prove the heating was on, or if on, if it was working.

The flats are linked by ducts and if there were open or broken widows would have been like a wind tunnel if the heating was on.

The Daily Mail report makes it clear that there was "nothing abnormal" about the levels of prescription drugs in Rachel Peavoy's system at the time of her death.


The report was by Warren Swords (warren.swords@mailonsunday.ie)

[Porcupine]

Lets spare a though for Rachel and her family today. The inquest is due to be reconvened at 4pm.

What should have been parties assisting the coroner in a death inqueat has become an ugly football match Dublin City Council v Peavoy family with the coroner facilitating the Council with some last minute "open windows" theory which was not in any statement or gardai report. Lets wait and see what this Inspector Waters has to say on oath. Is his evidence going to support the Council's claim, that the heating was on but Rachel froze herself by leaving her windows open on a freezing day??? It is obvious what the Council is trying to do - but will they succeed? Is there justice in the system?

[PaddyJoe]

RTE report on the inquest:

There were angry scenes following the inquest into the death of Ballymun woman who died of hypothermia when a verdict of misadventure found.
30-year-old Rachel Peavoy of Shangan, who was a single mother of two boys, died during snowy weather on 11 January 2010.
Dublin City Coroner Dr Brian Farrell heard that detenanting of other flats in Ms Peavoy's block could have caused heat loss in her flat.


In recording his verdict, Dr Farrell said he was asking Dublin City Council to review its procedures for detenanting and regeneration.
But he cited the evidence of a friend of Ms Peavoy, Jacqueline Johnson, who discovered the body and made a new statement recently denying that the flat was cold.
He said the heating supply to the flat had not been cut off by Dublin City Council.
But relatives and friends of the dead woman protested and shouted out 'shame on the corporation' and applauded a call for a public inquiry.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0406/peavoyr.html

[PaddyJoe]

Examiner report on the inquest:

An inquest into Rachel Peavoy's death from hypothermia in her Ballymun flat has heard that she had not eaten for three days.

A friend, Jacqeline Johnston, has given evidence that she knew the 30-year-old mother of two was dead when she found her lying on the floor of her bedroom on January 11 2010.

Dublin City Council insisted the heating was working when Ms Peavoy died of hypothermia in her Ballymun flat during very cold winter weather.

At its last sitting, a garda who attended the scene told the inquest the flat was freezing and an issue then arose as to whether the windows had been open or closed.

This evening Rachel's friend Jacqueline Johnston, who first discovered the mother of two's body, told the inquest that the temperature in the flat seemed normal.

She said there was a sickly, musty, smell so she opened windows before the ambulance arrived, like she always did when she found Rachel like this.

She said there was vomit in the sink and toilet and she knew from a phone conversation that Ms Peavoy had not eaten properly for three days.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/inquest-told-that-deceased-woman-in-ballymun-flat-had-not-eaten-for-three-days-500191.html#ixzz1ImQD8SSZ

[C. Flower]

I hope that someone who was at the inquest will write a clesr account. I wonder if she was so ill that it wasnt picked up by the autopsy.

[PaddyJoe]

The fullest account of the inquest that I have seen so far appears in the Irish Times:

At the inquest, Garda Insp Andrew Waters of Ballymun Garda station said he was very disappointed that comments he made about windows in Ms Peavoy’s flat were misrepresented in court.
Dr Farrell adjourned an earlier inquest after Donal Barron, the Ballymun area housing manager, said he was told by Garda Insp Waters that the windows were open in the flat at the time of Ms Peavoy’s death.
Referring to the issue yesterday, Garda Insp Waters said: “It was a very informal conversation based on hearsay . . . I said the windows may or may not have been open. I also said that the investigating officer Garda Caitríona Byrne had no record of the windows being opened or closed in her notebook.
“I am very disappointed selected parts of an informal conversation I had were misrepresented in court. I was asked what I knew about the death of Rachel Peavoy. I explained I knew nothing of the specifics,” he added.
Ms Peavoy’s friend Jacqueline Johnson told the inquest that she had opened the windows. Ms Johnson and Ms Peavoy’s sister Leontia had let themselves into Rachel’s flat after they couldn’t make contact with her. Ms Johnston found the body of her longtime friend in the main bedroom.
Ms Johnson said she was overcome by a damp/musty smell when she first entered the flat and opened the windows.
Ms Johnson said she did not notice whether the flat was warm or cold, but that you would notice when the heating was on, as “it would be boiling”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0407/1224294101099.html

[Porcupine]

A poster who attended the inquest today reported on the proceedings quite comprehensively:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056232005

I agree completely with this poster. The coroner relied almost soley on the "new" evidence of Ms Johnston - who , to anyone in court, except perhaps the coroner, did not come across as credible at all, and was quite unsure when questioned about her statement and how she came to make a second statement literally out of the blue , apparently without being requested by anyone. Apparently, although she had made a statement last year, she "had read the papers which were driving her mad" and called a friend Sabrina , who knew a garda who called her in to make another statement. When asked why she did not contact the gardai who were the investigating the case, as their names were in the papers as well, she was all but convincing and said she didnt read the papers ! The whole of the public gallery caracked up laughing at that - such was her perfaormance in court as star witness!


She claimed the water in the bath was tepid - but how could it be if Rachel died hours ago? Even a child who attended commented on Ms Johnston's evidence about the "warm air" she felt as she enetered the flat - and queried how a person could die of hypothermia if it was warm. And more surprisingly, if she had left a kitchen window open as she claimed, how can 6 gardai, trained to make observations in potential crime scanes - did not notice this especaially on such a cold night??

Well, the coroner sumarised picking on the evidence he chose to select - ignoring the fact that Inspector Watters robustedly rebuted what the Senior Housing Manager. Not only did he confirm that both Barron and Mary Taylors' evidence were "incorrect", he expressed disappointment at how an informal conversation was mispresented by the council Officials in court and went as far as saying that on the day the court sat, he received a call, al home from Barron at 5:01 pm who asked him if he could give eveidnec etc. The public and the media couldnt believe it !

Well, what more is there to say. The coroner was sitting under the City Council coat of arms. His findings defy logic - there was plenty evidence to suggest there were on going problems with the heating, but the coroner concluded that it was working on the night that Rachel died of hypothermia.

It was a disgrace, an insult to one's intelligence.

A jury should have been called to decide on the verdict, not a <mod> official.

[Andrew49]

We need a public enquiry - what's happening smacks of 'blame the victim'.

Internal council records [] have shown that the council had long been aware of the lack of heat in Rachel's flat – and had set a ‘target date’ of resolving the problem by January 27 - two weeks after she died. Problems had been recorded two months previously, when the council noted a severe dampness problem, and in an internal email the council acknowledged that the fact there were empty flats beside Rachel’s – which had broken windows, causing any heating to leak out.

[Andrew49]

On tonight's Prime Time - a film from Frank Shouldice on the Rachel Peavoy story.

[C. Flower]

Thanks Porcupine.


....I attended the hearing today and was quite simply flabbergasted by the outcome.

The Coroner recorded Ms. Peavoy's death as death by misadventure, and concluded that the cause of death was hypothermia. Yet he was satisfied that it was not freezing cold in the flat at the time of Ms. Peavoy's death and that the heating was working in the flat. He relied strongly on the evidence given by a former friend of Ms. Peavoy (Jacqueline Johnston) who during questioning by Dr. Craven BL resiled (sic) significantly from her written deposition to the inquest on a number of points. She came across as lacking any credibility during questioning, particularly since this was her second lot of evidence given to the Court. This new statement apparently only being made since the last adjournment.

The Coroner relied on the fact that the written testimony stated it was warm in the flat when Ms. Johnston arrived (she resiled from this under questioning) and that she subsequently opened a kitchen window and that's why the Gardai that arrived all felt it was cold in the apartment. He entirely refused to deal with the fact that when Ms. Peavoy was found on the floor she was stone cold, her hair was wet and towels on the floor were soaking wet. Dr. Craven BL put it to him that if the heating the Ballymun flats was working (and the heating works through heated panels in the floor and roof) then the towels and hair would surely have been dry rather than wet. Which seemed to me to be an entirely sensible point. The Coroner seemed to attach no weight to any evidence given by the Gardai, other residents of the flats, and he often seemed to defy common sense. The Coroner also appeared to misunderstand / attached undue weight to points made with regard to the medication (all of it prescribed) that Ms. Peavoy was taking.

How can someone die of hypothermia in a flat where the heating was working perfectly ? - given that the cause of hypothermia is prolonged exposure to cold. Evidence was produced to the Court of numerous complaints about the lack of heating over a period of three months, residents were being given money to buy electric heaters by the County Council because of this. An earlier County Council inspection of the temperature found it to be "sub optimal" yet we're supposed to believe that on the night this lady died everything was fine, yet text messages from her phone in preceding days made reference to the cold in the flat.

A little bit of me died today in that hearing. It was an avoidable tragedy, and the result of the inquest, in my opinion, is laughable based on the evidence adduced.

If I was a cynic {SNIP}

What avenues can Ms. Peavoy's family go down now ?

I presume the Coroners Court can be subject to Judicial Review ?

I've a feeling there is a lot more to run on this story.

It is impossible to say much about this based on the very incomplete and contradictory information available to anyone who was not at all three sittings of the inquest.

This is the first stage at which I read that she may have been found on the floor, with wet towels. There had been reference before to her bed clothes being inadequate.

I would be very interested to read a transcript of the inquest, or even read the written statements. Does anyone know if they are available ?

[C. Flower]

If she had, as J. Johnston said, been throwing up for three days, I would have thought it would be odd to find any significant quantity of Tramadol, or anything much, in her system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0407/1224294101099.html


Will DCC have an enquiry into Barron's apparent conduct, in discussing "hearsay" with a Senior Guard and in phoning the Coroner at home in the middle of the inquest ?

[Andrew49]

Thanks Porcupine.


It is impossible to say much about this based on the very incomplete and contradictory information available to anyone who was not at all three sittings of the inquest.

This is the first stage at which I read that she may have been found on the floor, with wet towels. There had been reference before to her bed clothes being inadequate.

I would be very interested to read a transcript of the inquest, or even read the written statements. Does anyone know if they are available ?

Can the report of an inquest be obtained?

Copies of the post-mortem report and depositions taken at inquest including a copy of the verdict are available from the coroner’s office on payment of the statutory fee, once the inquest has concluded. It should be noted that inquest papers are generally not available prior to the inquest being held.

The Freedom of Information Act 1997 does not apply to coroners inquests and inquiries. Documents are available under the Coroner’s Act 1962 [see also S.I. No. 429 of 2000 (Fees and Expenses)].

Source (http://www.coronerdublincity.ie//faqs/inquest.htm)

[Mervyn Crawford]

Sinn Fein damn themselves:

DUBLIN PEOPLE
Following the inquest, local TD Dessie Ellis (SF) said it was clear that Rachel should have been rehoused long ago rather than being left “isolated” in her Ballymun flat.
“It’s clear from this whole episode that nobody should be left isolated in the manner that Rachel was,” he told Northside People.
“Rachel should have been housed long before her death.
“Had she been housed she would have had better access to family and friends along with a much improved standard of housing.
“These things are hugely important and I believe that had Rachel been re-housed then her untimely death may not have occurred.”

[C. Flower]

Can the report of an inquest be obtained?

Copies of the post-mortem report and depositions taken at inquest including a copy of the verdict are available from the coroner’s office on payment of the statutory fee, once the inquest has concluded. It should be noted that inquest papers are generally not available prior to the inquest being held.

The Freedom of Information Act 1997 does not apply to coroners inquests and inquiries. Documents are available under the Coroner’s Act 1962 [see also S.I. No. 429 of 2000 (Fees and Expenses)].

Source (http://www.coronerdublincity.ie//faqs/inquest.htm)

Thanks Andrew49. I only just saw this. Does anyone have them yet ?

Otherwise, I may get them.

[C. Flower]

There's a petition calling for a public inquiry into Rachel Peavoy's death on Petitions Online. We don't allow online permissions to be directly linked here because of the privacy issue, but I've linked it on my Cass Flower Face Book page if anyone would like to sign.

[PaddyJoe]

From Twitter:
jemb123 (http://twitter.com/jemb123)
Pls RT. Public Meeting to campaign for justice for #RachelPeavoy (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23RachelPeavoy). Axis Centre, Ballymun Road. Tues 3 May 2011 8pm

[C. Flower]

"Protest on the 12th of may at 11.30 outside the civic centre in ballymun where Dublin city council are situated"

Friends of Rachel Peavoy have organised this protest.

[C. Flower]

Protest (see previous post) on this morning, for anyone within reach of Ballymun.

[C. Flower]

Protest (see previous post) on this morning, for anyone within reach of Ballymun.

About 70 people joined the picket at Ballymun Civic Centre including Rachel Peavoy's eldest son and her older sister.

[Dr. FIVE]

Extracts from Rachel Peavoy's letters to DCC

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/desperate-pleas-of-hypothermia-death-mum-2656782.html


"I feel I should not be left in this, but also feel I am not being listened to by Dublin Corporation. I really feel it is necessary for me to break out of this environment, for myself and my boys for me to give them the best I can."




"There has been three occasions when my friends came to visit and the windows of their cars were smashed. My windows have been put through numerous times -- sitting room, my boys' room and my own room," she wrote.

"I am on the first floor so it's an easy target for all those gangs out there that don't have a clue on life. I'm really trying to give my kids some sort of proper life, where they are able to play out with their friends."

[Kev Bar]

Extracts from Rachel Peavoy's letters to DCC

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/desperate-pleas-of-hypothermia-death-mum-2656782.html


"I feel I should not be left in this, but also feel I am not being listened to by Dublin Corporation. I really feel it is necessary for me to break out of this environment, for myself and my boys for me to give them the best I can."




"There has been three occasions when my friends came to visit and the windows of their cars were smashed. My windows have been put through numerous times -- sitting room, my boys' room and my own room," she wrote.

"I am on the first floor so it's an easy target for all those gangs out there that don't have a clue on life. I'm really trying to give my kids some sort of proper life, where they are able to play out with their friends."

Staggering. And seems to shoot holes through the offensive corpo defence which seemed to imply the heat was working but loonie lady left the windows open...as you do when it's dropping way below zero.

[C. Flower]

Extracts from Rachel Peavoy's letters to DCC

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/desperate-pleas-of-hypothermia-death-mum-2656782.html


"I feel I should not be left in this, but also feel I am not being listened to by Dublin Corporation. I really feel it is necessary for me to break out of this environment, for myself and my boys for me to give them the best I can."




"There has been three occasions when my friends came to visit and the windows of their cars were smashed. My windows have been put through numerous times -- sitting room, my boys' room and my own room," she wrote.

"I am on the first floor so it's an easy target for all those gangs out there that don't have a clue on life. I'm really trying to give my kids some sort of proper life, where they are able to play out with their friends."



In a letter to Dublin City Council, Rachel wrote: "I have no heating in my home and was recently told they can't fix this problem... everywhere in the flat is damp, windows, walls, clothes, etc.

"I feel I should not be left in this, but also feel I am not being listened to by Dublin Corporation. I really feel it is necessary for me to break out of this environment, for myself and my boys for me to give them the best I can."

The Herald can reveal that Rachel -- who suffered from anxiety and serious back pain -- was told that her living conditions did not fall into the category of "exceptional medical circumstances", meaning she couldn't be rehoused or given alternative accommodation.

In a letter sent to Rachel just four days before she was found dead, an officer for Dublin City Council stated: "The City Council's Chief Medical Officer has carried out an independent assessment of the medical documentation submitted by you and I regret to inform you that on the basis of the information supplied, Overall Medical Priority was not awarded."

Rachel described the threats and continuous abuse that her family received.

She wrote that she "would like to be able to come home and relax, without the hassle of the gangs around".

"There has been three occasions when my friends came to visit and the windows of their cars were smashed. My windows have been put through numerous times -- sitting room, my boys' room and my own room," she wrote.

"I am on the first floor so it's an easy target for all those gangs out there that don't have a clue on life. I'm really trying to give my kids some sort of proper life, where they are able to play out with their friends."

Rachel's brother Terry last night spoke of the "devastating effects" her death has had on her two young sons, Warren (12) and Leon (8).

"She was just so full of love. Her two lads Warren and Leon meant everything to her," he said. "Her death has had a massive effect on the two lads. Leon's only eight but he often hears a song that Rachel liked and he'd start talking about her."

Rachel's family and friends are now calling for a public inquiry into her death.

"We just want justice for Rachel," Terry said. "She should not have been living in those awful conditions. Her death could have been prevented if she was properly looked after."




I would expect Dublin City Council to have carried out their own internal investigation into this case. It should be made public.

[C. Flower]

Rachel Peavoy is very far from being forgotten.


hi,
hope all is well we would just like to update people who have been helping out in our fight to get justice for Rachel and her family,we will be having another protest
outside Dublin city council at 2.30 pm on the 17th of June we would be grateful if people can show support in any way , also we will be going to to dail in Friday the 17th
at 10 am we are trying to get a public inquiry, and tonight at 7pm we will be going in to city hall ,theres also an event we will be putting together for Rachel in the coming weeks will
keep people up to date with this thanks for the support ,

regards

catherine greene .

[Andrew49]

Rachel Peavoy is very far from being forgotten.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/Rachels.jpg

The human rights of families still living in almost fully detenanted blocks of flats in Ballymun were being violated and these people must be rehoused as soon as possible, Dublin City Council was told yesterday. Members of the Justice for Rachel Peavoy campaign, protested outside the civic offices in Ballymun yesterday, saying the circumstances in which Ms Peavoy died last year must not be allowed to continue for other families.

At the inquest into her death in April the cause of death was found to have been hypothermia. Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0618/1224299153913.html)

[C. Flower]

[QUOTE=Andrew49;155325]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c135/theknitter/Rachels.jpg

The human rights of families still living in almost fully detenanted blocks of flats in Ballymun were being violated and these people must be rehoused as soon as possible, Dublin City Council was told yesterday. Members of the Justice for Rachel Peavoy campaign, protested outside the civic offices in Ballymun yesterday, saying the circumstances in which Ms Peavoy died last year must not be allowed to continue for other families.

At the inquest into her death in April the cause of death was found to have been hypothermia. Source (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0618/1224299153913.html)[/QUOTE

Just a few feet away from the civic offices, there's a block in shocking condition with people still living in it.

[C. Flower]

Three blocks of flats in Ballymun are still in the neglected and half empty condition that Rachel Peavoy's was, with mothers and young children facing into the winter in freezing conditions.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0907/1224303638638.html

[Andrew49]

Three blocks of flats in Ballymun are still in the neglected and half empty condition that Rachel Peavoy's was, with mothers and young children facing into the winter in freezing conditions.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0907/1224303638638.html

Such is Ireland ... and all of this was happening BEFORE Ireland was sold to the IMF/ECB. And it's still happening despite an election that was supposed to change things. Why aren't the media 'doorstepping' Dublin City Council?

[Andrew49]

Is this (the official neglect) a deliberate ploy by DCC? They move some people out and hope the neglect and anti-social activities will drive the others out?

[C. Flower]

Is this (the official neglect) a deliberate ploy by DCC? They move some people out and hope the neglect and anti-social activities will drive the others out?

Housing departments in local authorities often seem to be very inefficient and also lacking in any human feeling for tenants, who frequently complain of being treated with total disrespect.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

[fluffybiscuits]

Housing departments in local authorities often seem to be very inefficient and also lacking in any human feeling for tenants, who frequently complain of being treated with total disrespect.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

I work in public sector and a lot of people call us mistakenly about the issues they have which come under the councuil. We always refer them on to the Ombudsmans office which is there to take complaints if a council is not doing their job. There is a also Threshold too which may be able to help if anyone is experiencing difficulties. It shouldnt be happening in this day and age though people dying of hypothermia and other illnessess associated with conditions such dampness etc. I know times are tough but if they spent less on big expenses and silly art projects the normal human being may be saved. On the subject of customer services, most them dont seem to give a **** , I had cause to ring them a couple of weeks back and all I spoke to was some snotty litltle rat who tried fobbing me off till I dug my heels in.

[C. Flower]

The Daily Mail reported today that the ESB is disconnecting up to 44 homes a day.

16,000 households were disconnected from electricity last year. There were thousands of gas disconnections, too. More people are going onto metered services, which may mean they are unable to afford a continuous supply to meet their needs.

[eamo]

We are been driven into dire poverty, my family included. It comes as no surprise to those who could see the class nature of our capitalist Ireland, but it has come as a terrible shock to many decent folk who bought into the FF/FG/PD bull***t.

[C. Flower]

We are been driven into dire poverty, my family included. It comes as no surprise to those who could see the class nature of our capitalist Ireland, but it has come as a terrible shock to many decent folk who bought into the FF/FG/PD bull***t.

Exactly. Many people don't associate social "safety nets" with organisation of working people as that bit of history was never taught at school, and they have seen Union fat cats hob nobbing with corrupt politicians.

[C. Flower]

"Ballymun Lullaby" on now, RTE TV, 1.

Looks to be an interesting documentary.

[Dr. FIVE]

Three years ago today. RIP

[C. Flower]

Sad. Condolences to her family and especially her children.

[morticia]

We are been driven into dire poverty, my family included. It comes as no surprise to those who could see the class nature of our capitalist Ireland, but it has come as a terrible shock to many decent folk who bought into the FF/FG/PD bull***t.

I don't think anyone's got it easy at the moment, Eamo, and I'm not sure it's a class issue. There's little relation between gross income and disposable income any more, especially if you have small children in child care and a mortgage. The Irish Times had an article today saying the average mortgage was 300k.... Add crèche fees and even supposed high earners are cutting back on the central heating. The real divide is generational; those who were settled in houses before the boom really got going are in clover. Those who didn't, aren't.

[C. Flower]

I don't think anyone's got it easy at the moment, Eamo, and I'm not sure it's a class issue. There's little relation between gross income and disposable income any more, especially if you have small children in child care and a mortgage. The Irish Times had an article today saying the average mortgage was 300k.... Add crèche fees and even supposed high earners are cutting back on the central heating. The real divide is generational; those who were settled in houses before the boom really got going are in clover. Those who didn't, aren't.

I think it is a class issue, but people are falling out of the middle class into poverty across Europe. Nothing new - Marx wrote about it 150 years ago.
The same happened in the 1930s. Once well-to-do families having to sell everything.

There is a core of wealthy people who are getting wealthier. People living on wages or unemployment overwhelmingly are getting poorer.

There are people hungry and homeless.

[C. Flower]

There are still people protesting and demanding and inquiry - just heard about someone withholding rent from DCC in protest.