Government to hold Referendum on Abolition of Seanad - 2012

[ang]

Oh well it looks like they are all jumping on the "Abolishing the Seanad" agenda.


THE GOVERNMENT is to consider holding a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad to be held on the same day as the general election.

Minister for Defence Tony Killeen confirmed yesterday that the future of the Seanad will be discussed at the first Cabinet meeting of the new year this week with a strong mood at senior levels in Government for the question to be put to the people on the day of the election.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0103/1224286669831.html

EDITThread title changed.

[Newsy]

It appears terribly peculiar that they couldn't hold three by-elections or a referendum on Childrens Rights in the pass year or more and yet they may be looking at holding a referendum on the abolishion of the Seanad the same day as the General Election.

[Count Bobulescu]

First post here. I won’t be frequent. Voted for Mary Robinson and promptly skipped the country, and only get back about four days a year. Discovered this site thru the Wiki page on the “other” site.
I’m too far removed to be up to speed on a lot of stuff. In general, I’m in favor of abolishing the Senate, but I would add a wrinkle. Let any referendum on abolishing the Senate, also include wording that would also include reforms of the Dail. I have no specific proposals, but I’ll guess others here have.
Back in 2000, former wrestler Jesse Ventura was elected “independent” Guv of Minnesota. All the “pun-dints” at the time proclaimed it a “freak show”. Ventura surprised most with his rational level headed approach. One of his signature issues, which failed, was the abolition of the upper house of the MN Leg. Hope you guys have a good debate on this, and end up making some long overdue reforms. Here’s a Wiki on Unicameralism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicameralism

[C. Flower]

First post here. I won’t be frequent. Voted for Mary Robinson and promptly skipped the country, and only get back about four days a year. Discovered this site thru the Wiki page on the “other” site.
I’m too far removed to be up to speed on a lot of stuff. In general, I’m in favor of abolishing the Senate, but I would add a wrinkle. Let any referendum on abolishing the Senate, also include wording that would also include reforms of the Dail. I have no specific proposals, but I’ll guess others here have.
Back in 2000, former wrestler Jesse Ventura was elected “independent” Guv of Minnesota. All the “pun-dints” at the time proclaimed it a “***** show”. Ventura surprised most with his rational level headed approach. One of his signature issues, which failed, was the abolition of the upper house of the MN Leg. Hope you guys have a good debate on this, and end up making some long overdue reforms. Here’s a Wiki on Unicameralism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicameralism

Welcome, Count. :)

I remember watching a video of Ventura, about his belated "vetting" by intelligence operatives, who were trying to fathom out how exactly an outsider had got elected, presumably so that they could make sure it didn't happen again. I'll be interested to look at the wiki entry.

I hope you find time to drop in on more that 4 days a year - we have several trans-atlantic members here, and as you might guess from our forum's name, aspirations to world domination ;).

[geri222]

In general, I’m in favor of abolishing the Senate, but I would add a wrinkle. Let any referendum on abolishing the Senate, also include wording that would also include reforms of the Dail. I have no specific proposals, but I’ll guess others here have.

A very good suggestion Count !

[Ah Well]

Can see a Referendum being in favour of its abolition - seeing as a considerable number of the Electorate have no Seanad vote anyway ....

One thing I would not like to see and I believe it will be inevitable ... is that we will end up with a Dail almost entirely full of parish pump party gombeens/clones without the likes of eg Sen Shane Ross who at least have some sort of voice which we occassionally hear in the Seanad

[Edo]

ah - quelle surprise as the french would say

Everybody laughed at Kenny when he first brought it up a few years ago - but it really gained traction with the general public and FF know it - sadly it is one of umpteen reforms proposed by FG - the others being ignored by both FF and Lab - and by far the least important one.

This is classic Fianna Fail - the thinking behind it is thus:

FF's main fear is that even their diehard support will not bother to turn up to vote on election day - thus including a referendum on a popular issue might get many of them to turn up and sure while they are there - shure they might fill in the ballot sheet for the GE and throw an aul vote or 2 to the FF candidates and shure arent they really great fellas from proposing to abolish the wasters in the senate!!

Never never underestimate how dirty FF are going to play in the next election - they are fighting for their political survival and thus everything and anything is on the table in their fight to keep at least 40+ seats.

personally - Im in two minds about senate - if it can be radically reformed and made relevant -as it was circa 1922 - 1934 when Dev first abolished it - keep it - if not get rid of the bastardised castrated version that dev gave us in the 1937 constitution.

[Ah Well]

personally - Im in two minds about senate - if it can be radically reformed and made relevant -as it was circa 1922 - 1934 when Dev first abolished it - keep it - if not get rid of the bastardised castrated version that dev gave us in the 1937 constitution.

First thing to dump would be the Taoiseach Nominees ... look what Ahern endowed us with

[ang]

It would seem that according to Dan Boyle a Referendum to abolish the Seanad will not happen he can't see the Seanad supporting it. I too never believed turkeys voted for Christmas:-
Some tweets

@sendboyle Dan, are the Greens seriously considering facilitating a referendum on Seanad abolition? Wouldn't this be contrary to our policy?

Dan Response:-


@mcullinane I don't see it happening. I don't see The Seanad supporting it.

[Newsy]

I wouldn't wish to see the Seanad go. However, it needs massive reform, e.g. work a 'normal week', not the three days at present......less members but more democratically selected/elected.......more representative of the people.....rather than of party....

[TotalMayhem]

I'm always surprised by the monumental level of mass self-deception in our society.

Since we have peacefully surrendered the nation's wealth and future to the financial crime syndicate, we might as well abolish Dáil Eireann as we simply cannot afford the luxury of paying for a bunch of morons who will have nothing to decide in the first place, never mind the senate. The pleasure of electing the debt collectors who will suck you dry to me is a pretty masochistic one, one I can do very well without.

The elections and referenda so many here seem to be craving for are no different from the Sunday game or a Premiership match. Cheap entertainment for the masses, enjoy the illusion while it lasts. Those with a cent worth of brains take matters into their own hands and take care of themselves and their families.

[morticia]

'twould save us a lot of money, I suppose....without an immediate effect on the living standards of many people.

If not abolition, then reform. The way senators are currently elected/appointed is somewhat elitist and undemocratic.

[ang]

The Labour party have issued a warning over Seanad Referendum:-


The Labour Party warned today a referendum on abolishing the Seanad cannot be held on the same day as an election.

The Government is considering plans for the massive reform which could be put to the public in the spring.

But a Labour spokesman it would not be feasible to hold such a major poll while party political issues were also being debated.

“There are 60 separate references to the Seanad in the Constitution and all of them would have to be removed,” a Labour spokesman said.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/labour-issues-warning-over-seanad-referendum-487842.html

[Kid Ryder]

Isn't it interesting that Paedo Fáil are showing interest in the Seanad's abolition only when it is certain that they no longer dominate its electorate. If they still had the largest share of council seats this kite would never be flown. If they can't find refuge in the hot air factory after being rejected at the polls, then no-one else should be allowed to.

[C. Flower]

Another non-event, it seems, if Dan Boyle's latest tweet is to be believed ;)

[Count Bobulescu]

Thx. CF and Geri222 for kind words. A quick note about Minnesota. It has a reputation for the most open and least corrupt government in the US. It was largely settled by Scandinavians. Could there be a connection?
Looks like no Senate Ref. on GE. day. Might be a good thing? The announcement of a possible Ref. on GE day struck me as a rush job without time for adequate public debate.
(Why am I not surprised by that?) Maybe significant reform would be better than abolition. If so, this community should use the extra time available, to draw up a list of desired reforms voted on by the members. Also, draw up a list of desired reforms for the TeeDee’s to be included in the Ref. You guys are the new kids on the block, you have a chance to make a difference, seize it, and punch above your weight. Admin/Mods build a database of members by constituency to effect pressure broadly.
One suggestion, Senators directly elected by Dail constituency?? If you end up keeping the Senate, try to make it more effective.

On the broader issue of guv-mint reform, two links below, both tied to Minnesota. (I own no shares in Minnesota, honest.)
http://www.publicus.net/articles/egovten.html
http://forums.e-democracy.org/

[Baron von Biffo]

This is coming up in the PK thread but it's big enough to deserve a thread of its own.


One Seanad reform would be to have it elected on the same day as the Dail to avoid the parties stuffing it with rejects.


Good one ... plus of course extend the voting rights to all of the Electorate who basically would then have GE votes for the Dáil & the Seanad .... and ditch the farce of Taoiseach Nominees at the same time

If everyone has a vote in Seanad elections how would that house differ from the Dail? Wouldn't it mean in effect that we had a unicameral system?

The Taoiseach's nominees allow the chance to bring specific talents to the Oireachtas. Granted it's never been used that way but if we changed the way they were appointed - Say, let the Taoiseach propose people who must then win a weighted majority in the Dail.

[Holly]

....
If everyone has a vote in Seanad elections how would that house differ from the Dail? Wouldn't it mean in effect that we had a unicameral system?

Because everyone does not have a vote, the Senate is, intentionally, undemocratic and designed to reflect vested interests. Do Irish people not feel shame that because someone has had the opportunity to get an education and degree from Trinity College, Dublin, s/he gets a vote (even if s/he lives in England) while a person who went to work after the Inter Cert is not represented?


The Taoiseach's nominees allow the chance to bring specific talents to the Oireachtas. Granted it's never been used that way but if we changed the way they were appointed - Say, let the Taoiseach propose people who must then win a weighted majority in the Dail.

There is no justification in permitting a Taoiseach to pad the Senate with cronies, especially since his/her Cabinet can already pass any legislation in the Dáil. This is bizarre.

Frankly, I see no purpose for the Senate and it ought to be abolished.

[Buddha]

Does anyone know if legislation passed by the Dáil was ever rejected by the Seanad?

[C. Flower]

Should we merge the two threads on Senate reform ?

[antiestablishmentarian]

Does anyone know if legislation passed by the Dáil was ever rejected by the Seanad?

Doesn't matter if it rejects or not- it can only be delayed, then it must pass after a certain amount of time, 3 months I think.

[Holly]

Should we merge the two threads on Senate reform ?

Why not?

[ang]

Referendum on Abolition of Seanad to be held next year:-


RTÉ News
The Taoiseach has told the #dail he intends to call a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad in 2012

[Baron von Biffo]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-seanad-referendum-likely-next-year-506361.html

Kenny is saying that the referendum to abolish the Seanad is likely to be held next year. A bit crass to do it on the first day that the new Seanad, which includes his nominees, sits.

[Baron von Biffo]

Apologies, I've just spotted that there's already a thread on this. Maybe the mods could delete this thread.

:o:o:o

[Baron von Biffo]

Abolition of the Seanad on DriveTime now. I wont say it's being discussed because Wilson is in full 'Shut up and listen to me' mode, interrupting and talking over her guests.

[C. Flower]

Elaine Byrne - a good article on why the Seanad should be fixed, not demolished.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/elaine-byrne-democracy-in-danger-of-being-another-casualty-of-recession-3338800.html

[C. Flower]

Discussion on this now on the Pat Kenny now.

Joe Higgins is arguing for "Direct democracy" and abolition of the Seanad.

No analysis from Joe of Fine Gael's removal of or pressurising of balancing institutions on Dail Minister's powers.

Direct democracy is a long way from socialism. Is this the new SP line ? Is the SP being influenced by movements taking part in CAWHT ?

[Dr. FIVE]

Direct democracy is a long way from socialism. Is this the new SP line ? Is the SP being influenced by movements taking part in CAWHT ?

Think it's what happens when you're content on a protest footing.

[C. Flower]

Think it's what happens when you're content on a protest footing.

I think you are on the nail.

[Andrew49]

Higgins just doesn't inspire me. He's just too much into plodding. I'm sure his dissertation (and it would be a dissertation) on what he means by 'Direct Democracy' would be miles and miles away from Direct Democracy.

[Dr. FIVE]

tips nose*

[C. Flower]

Higgins just doesn't inspire me. He's just too much into plodding. I'm sure his dissertation (and it would be a dissertation) on what he means by 'Direct Democracy' would be miles and miles away from Direct Democracy.

With any change that affects our Constitution in such a fundamental way we need to ask why the item was put there in the first place. Our Constitution, for all its weaknesses, did set out to provide safeguards to prevent Alan Shatter or Enda Kenny operating an unchallengeable dictatorship between elections.

[C. Flower]

Discussion on this on TWIP now.

On Higgins, someone suggested to me that perhaps he thinks abolition of the Senate is a first step towards revolution...maybe Fine Gael will abolish the Dail next. Oh wait....

[Simonsays]

Does anyone know if legislation passed by the Dáil was ever rejected by the Seanad?

Yes. A bill in 1959. (Seriously!)

The Dáil overrode the rejection.