Irish General Election 2011 - Fine Gael Planning Coalition with FF ?

[C. Flower]

In a bizarre form of words, the Independent is talking today about an "FF backed FG single party government."

An FF-FG coalition, surely ?

This should not come as any surprise, as both parties have a much bigger interest in squeezing out the possibility of a left-dominated government than they do obstructing each other.

The Tallaght Strategy and the failure to try to pull together a government in 2007 would suggest that FG has no fundamental / in principle objection to forming a government.

This debate last emerged seriously at the time of the attempted heave against Kenny run by Bruton and followers. At that stage, Kenny, who seems to represent some kind of FG independence tendency, won out.
The move of the IMF/EU into Irish governance fits like a glove with Bruton's politics.

I am wondering if the Independent article, as well as being a "flyer" about FG/FF alliance, is linked to another anti-Kenny heave process?

The advantage of such an alliance would be that it forces Labour once and for all to put up or shut up and that it would put both FF and FG to the electoral test.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html


SENIOR Fine Gael (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fine_Gael) strategists are eyeing up the prospect of a single-party government -- with the voting support of Fianna Fail (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fianna_Fail)
Fine Gael (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fine_Gael) is not targeting an overall majority -- a senior party source has admitted that it is highly improbable the party will win enough seats.
"Bertie missed out (on an overall majority) with 40 per cent of the vote so we're not going to do it with 30 per cent."
But in a reprise of Fianna Fail (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Fianna_Fail)'s attempt in 2002 to 'sneak up' on an overall majority, top-level Fine Gael strategists have not dismissed the possibility that should the party win more than 70 seats, a humiliated Fianna Fail may feel the best opportunity for recovery would be to support a Fine Gael government.
In the run-up to election 2011, Fine Gael is already well positioned to take advantage of the contrasting woes of its two main electoral rivals, Fianna Fail and Labour.
One top strategist noted "the recent polls show that FF is the sick man of Irish politics. They will not be sitting up in bed in the recovery ward eating a soft boiled egg any time soon either.''
Senior Fine Gael figures are suggesting the real election in 2011 will be between Fine Gael and a left-wing alliance of Labour, Independent Socialists and Sinn Fein (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Sinn_Fein).
One said this new development provided the lead opposition party with a "real opportunity to quietly get our vote up into the mid-30 per cent bracket and aim for a majority''.
A key election theme will be that "Ireland (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Ireland) cannot afford a hard left government'' and that the Fine Gael strike force of Michael Noonan (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Michael_Noonan_%28politician%29), Leo Varadkar (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Leo_Varadkar) and Brian Hayes (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Brian_Hayes) can offer stability and competence and, in the shape of Mr Noonan, experience in key government posts.
Fine Gael strategists are convinced Labour is "fighting on two flanks".
"Labour's working class support is now being threatened, while the high-earning ABC1 voters, who are the softest element of the Labour vote, will flee in droves if they see Sinn Fein coming in the back door''.
Speaking to the Sunday Independent, one veteran strategist said: "Every campaign has its moment where somebody gains momentum. That could be us -- for on policy as we have the hard yards done. Unlike others, we are not waffling. We have actually spent the last two to three years thinking through what has to be done''.



Fianna Fail leadership contender Micheal Martin and the retiring minister Noel Dempsey (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Noel_Dempsey) have both indicated they could support a Fine Gael government if it was implementing policies broadly compatible with those of Fianna Fail

[Tommy]

Nonsense - this will not happen. Period.

[C. Flower]

Nonsense - this will not happen. Period.

Any thoughts on what will happen ?

[Lifeisagame]

This should not be dismissed lightly. Only FF have the inside track on All the Finances. Any new Government will just be taking a poison Chalice and they will spend years try to pick their way through the Finances.
However, No current Party in the State will get a vote from me.
While FF may have the inside track, they are just as incompetent as the rest. I Could say, even more so, but I believe the next lot will be the same.

[Tommy]

Any thoughts on what will happen ?


Labour and FG coalition....simple as

[Lifeisagame]

Labour and FG coalition....simple as
So Wise One, what will they achieve? Ehh try and explain in more that 2 words.

[Frankie Lee]

Harris is saying pretty much the same too
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/eoghan-harris/eoghan-harris-tell-me-does-my-asset-look-big-in-my-new-nama-2474208.html

It really is hard to believe he is not a genius satirist at this stage. He also has a strange thing for Marc McSharry.

[Sidewinder]

Just Sindo spin - at all costs De Party must be pushed and promoted as vitally important players, no matter the reality. If you keep endlessly banging on about various loony scenarios where the next Govt is still somehow dependent on, or involving, Fianna Fáil then that keeps them relevent in the minds of idiots, who are then more easily persuaded during the campaign itself to go in and vote 1,2,3FF all over again.

Think about this. If the meeja narrative at this stage was already simply dismissing FF post-election as the tiny discredited toxic rump of despised traitors they should rightfully be, and simply blanking FF from any consideration of the post-election political landscape, as FF will be irrelevant in any scenario as nobody else will talk to them....if that was the meeja narrative from now to the election how many people would still vote FF? 5% maybe?

I find it amazing at this stage that so few still cannot grasp the simple tricks of propaganda, and how easily the herd is distracted with shiny babbling bullshyte.

[Griska]

This is from the same paper who's headline today tells us how much respect we all had for BBL (Brave Brian Lenihan).

I've said it before, I can see FF somewhere down the line merging with FG.

[Lifeisagame]

Just Sindo spin - at all costs De Party must be pushed and promoted as vitally important players, no matter the reality. If you keep endlessly banging on about various loony scenarios where the next Govt is still somehow dependent on, or involving, Fianna Fáil then that keeps them relevent in the minds of idiots, who are then more easily persuaded during the campaign itself to go in and vote 1,2,3FF all over again.

Think about this. If the meeja narrative at this stage was already simply dismissing FF post-election as the tiny discredited toxic rump of despised traitors they should rightfully be, and simply blanking FF from any consideration of the post-election political landscape, as FF will be irrelevant in any scenario as nobody else will talk to them....if that was the meeja narrative from now to the election how many people would still vote FF? 5% maybe?

I find it amazing at this stage that so few still cannot grasp the simple tricks of propaganda, and how easily the herd is distracted with shiny babbling bullshyte.
You do a wonderful job of criticising anyone that has a thought or idea. But you NEVER Post a potential solution that You think will resolve the destruction. It is very easy to be an Opposition Politician and that is the game you play.
So let us hear what you have to offer.

[Baron von Biffo]

In a bizarre form of words, the Independent is talking today about an "FF backed FG single party government."

An FF-FG coalition, surely ?

This should not come as any surprise, as both parties have a much bigger interest in squeezing out the possibility of a left-dominated government than they do obstructing each other.

The Tallaght Strategy and the failure to try to pull together a government in 2007 would suggest that FG has no fundamental / in principle objection to forming a government.

This debate last emerged seriously at the time of the attempted heave against Kenny run by Bruton and followers. At that stage, Kenny, who seems to represent some kind of FG independence tendency, won out.
The move of the IMF/EU into Irish governance fits like a glove with Bruton's politics.

I am wondering if the Independent article, as well as being a "flyer" about FG/FF alliance, is linked to another anti-Kenny heave process?

The advantage of such an alliance would be that it forces Labour once and for all to put up or shut up and that it would put both FF and FG to the electoral test.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html

It looks like Mr. Beans is getting nervous about the strength of Lab.

The idea that Lab, SF and various Inds will have a majority in the next Dail is risible and if FG and Lab are in coalition the thought of including SF and Inds would have no appeal for Lab or SF/Inds. What's going on here is an attempt to affix a 'Hard Left' label to Lab to frighten away their middle class support.

When Dukes came up with the Tallaght Strategy it was partly because he wanted to buy some time to get FG into shape and partly because of that tedious FG self flagellation instinct so often expressed as 'We put country ahead of party.' Whatever the motivation it was the second most idiotic stunt by an Irish political party. The likelihood that FF will be so stupid as to repeat it is fanciful at best.

An FG/FF coalition is even farther from reality. Neither party would have anything to gain from letting even the most dull and disinterested citizen see that there really isn't any political difference between them. Even from an immediately practical perspective we can see it would be impossible. Kenny will have enough difficulties managing dashed ministerial hopes in a coalition with Lab but just picture the fury if he had to tell Hayes, Shatter or Varadkar that they wouldn't be getting mercs because he had to accommodate Coughlan, O'Cuiv and Willie O'Dea.

Mr. Beans and his minions will know that the next government is going to be FG/Lab and that the real battle in the GE will be between those two to boost their relative strength and influence. By pushing a Reds under the beds scare while talking up the prospects of a becalmed FG they are making their new allegiance very clear.

[Lifeisagame]

An American View

The Haircut

One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut. After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, 'I cannot accept money from you, I'm doing community service this week.' The florist was pleased and left the shop. When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a 'thank you' card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.

Later, a cop comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, 'I cannot accept money from you , I'm doing community service this week.' The cop was happy and left the shop. The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a 'thank you' card and a dozen donuts waiting for him at his door.

Then a Congressman came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill, the barber again replied, 'I can not accept money from you. I'm doing community service this week.' The Congressman was very happy and left the shop. The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen Congressmen lined up waiting for a free haircut.

And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it.

BOTH POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON!

[Tommy]

So Wise One, what will they achieve? Ehh try and explain in more that 2 words.

Doesnt matter - this will be the next govt

[C. Flower]

It looks like Mr. Beans is getting nervous about the strength of Lab.

The idea that Lab, SF and various Inds will have a majority in the next Dail is risible and if FG and Lab are in coalition the thought of including SF and Inds would have no appeal for Lab or SF/Inds. What's going on here is an attempt to affix a 'Hard Left' label to Lab to frighten away their middle class support.

When Dukes came up with the Tallaght Strategy it was partly because he wanted to buy some time to get FG into shape and partly because of that tedious FG self flagellation instinct so often expressed as 'We put country ahead of party.' Whatever the motivation it was the second most idiotic stunt by an Irish political party. The likelihood that FF will be so stupid as to repeat it is fanciful at best.

An FG/FF coalition is even farther from reality. Neither party would have anything to gain from letting even the most dull and disinterested citizen see that there really isn't any political difference between them. Even from an immediately practical perspective we can see it would be impossible. Kenny will have enough difficulties managing dashed ministerial hopes in a coalition with Lab but just picture the fury if he had to tell Hayes, Shatter or Varadkar that they wouldn't be getting mercs because he had to accommodate Coughlan, O'Cuiv and Willie O'Dea.

Mr. Beans and his minions will know that the next government is going to be FG/Lab and that the real battle in the GE will be between those two to boost their relative strength and influence. By pushing a Reds under the beds scare while talking up the prospects of a becalmed FG they are making their new allegiance very clear.

Sinn Fein has scalped Labour in the latest polls. The one thing that's correct in the article is that Labour is caught between the rock of attachment to Fine Gael, which will drive leftish voters to SF or ULA, and the hard place of the faint possibility of a left / republican coalition government, that might push a few voters from Labour to FG.

We still don't have an election date: until we do, it's too soon to say where the radicalisation of the Irish vote will stop.

[Lifeisagame]

Doesnt matter - this will be the next govt
So that I am very clear on this, you are saying "FG/LAB will be the next Government and it does not matter what they do in Power" is that correct?

Bear in mind you started a Thread today berating some unfortunite tourists as Idiots for following a SatNav.

So we are all just to roll over with our paws in the air and give up????

[Sidewinder]

You do a wonderful job of criticising anyone that has a thought or idea. But you NEVER Post a potential solution that You think will resolve the destruction. It is very easy to be an Opposition Politician and that is the game you play.
So let us hear what you have to offer.

Arseology as usual. I've been advocating alternative policies here and on the other parish for the last 6 years and I'm tired of repeating myself to fearful status-quo merchants.

Rip out the corruption, jail the corrupt, liquidate the corrupt insolvent banks, dismantle the rigged and corrupt markets and dodgy support mechanisms for artificially-inflated prices across the Irish economy, radically overhaul all the failed institutions of this failed pseudo-republic, dismantle the reactionary mind-destroying "education" system in Ireland, renege on the debts that lunatic Lendahand has racked up in the banks. The entire global system is a criminal one and continuing to "play the game, don't rock the boat, keep the head down, shure it'll all be grand" is a recipe for decades of slavery.

Not that any of this will ever actually happen of course, you'll all sleepwalk into slavery and be grateful for it. Me, I'm going to protect myself and continue to adjust my position in life so that I'm as disconnected from the criminal system as possible.

If there's one thing the last decade has taught me it's that most people don't want to confront the truth and don't want to hear how things actually are. They want lollipops, promises of jam today, comfort blankies about the hard work being done by their glorious leaders, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the large majority of people want to be controlled, directed, dependent, told what to think and how to behave.

It's not a game I'm willing to play, but hey if it makes you happy then continue wearing those psychological chains.

[Lifeisagame]

Arseology as usual. I've been advocating alternative policies here and on the other parish for the last 6 years and I'm tired of repeating myself to fearful status-quo merchants.

Rip out the corruption, jail the corrupt, liquidate the corrupt insolvent banks, dismantle the rigged and corrupt markets and dodgy support mechanisms for artificially-inflated prices across the Irish economy, radically overhaul all the failed institutions of this failed pseudo-republic, dismantle the reactionary mind-destroying "education" system in Ireland, renege on the debts that lunatic Lendahand has racked up in the banks. The entire global system is a criminal one and continuing to "play the game, don't rock the boat, keep the head down, shure it'll all be grand" is a recipe for decades of slavery.

Not that any of this will ever actually happen of course, you'll all sleepwalk into slavery and be grateful for it. Me, I'm going to protect myself and continue to adjust my position in life so that I'm as disconnected from the criminal system as possible.

If there's one thing the last decade has taught me it's that most people don't want to confront the truth and don't want to hear how things actually are. They want lollipops, promises of jam today, comfort blankies about the hard work being done by their glorious leaders, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the large majority of people want to be controlled, directed, dependent, told what to think and how to behave.

It's not a game I'm willing to play, but hey if it makes you happy then continue wearing those psychological chains.
Well, having started off with your usual abusive comment, I gather you are going to build a bunker for yourself, because the Whole World is corrupt.
Regarding people wanting to be guided or led, what is wrong with that? Some people genuinely feel more comfortable having someone lead the way.
But let us try to come back to our internal reality, Ireland and the mess.
Ranting about it is not going to get anywhere. Trying to correct it all at once is unrealistic.
The first thing we need is a Leader and we do not have that in Any Party. But I believe there is a Leader among us and people should urge those they believe have potential to go forward.
Now we need a Government, but it must be transparent and set up to take the Whole Country into it's decision making process. The people will elect a new Government soon and if it is the wrong mix then the country will collapse and your vision will come through. But we, the citizens have a part to play and the future will be in our hands when and if we decide to walk into a Ballot Box.
But whatever happens, life will go on and we will adjust. The damage is done and now we will pay for it, but there are generations to follow us and we owe it to them to try.

[Tommy]

So that I am very clear on this, you are saying "FG/LAB will be the next Government and it does not matter what they do in Power" is that correct?
Bear in mind you started a Thread today berating some unfortunite tourists as Idiots for following a SatNav.
So we are all just to roll over with our paws in the air and give up????
This is very simple, please take time to read what I am posting so you dont look a simpleton again. The question is on FF/FG merger . . . .the answer is this will not happen as FG AND Labour will form the next government . . . .What they will or wont do in government is not for discussion on this thread. Understand? If not please keep rereading until you do . . . .

[Lifeisagame]

This is very simple, please take time to read what I am posting so you dont look a simpleton again. The question is on FF/FG merger . . . .the answer is this will not happen as FG AND Labour will form the next government . . . .What they will or wont do in government is not for discussion on this thread. Understand? If not please keep rereading until you do . . . .
Dear oh Dear, we are an abusive little sod.
The Thread is set to discuss the possibility of this merger and Members will discus and debate the issue and alternatives.
However, having seen a few of your Posts, it is obvious that you do not participate in such trivial activities and only operate black and white.
Fair enough, well you are best ignored so.
Maybe you should spend a few days reading a few Threads and Posts by various Members to see how it is done.
I will ignore the Simpleton comment This Time.

[Tommy]

Dear oh Dear, we are an abusive little sod.
The Thread is set to discuss the possibility of this merger and Members will discus and debate the issue and alternatives.
However, having seen a few of your Posts, it is obvious that you do not participate in such trivial activities and only operate black and white.
Fair enough, well you are best ignored so.
Maybe you should spend a few days reading a few Threads and Posts by various Members to see how it is done.
I will ignore the Simpleton comment This Time.
I would appreciate you not engaging with me until you improve your IQ or your manners - preferably both.

[Lifeisagame]

I would appreciate you not engaging with me until you improve your IQ or your manners - preferably both.
Did you join just to abuse Members? My manners are fine and my IQ is quite satisfatory, thank you. Now run along and abuse someone else, thank you.

[Tommy]

Did you join just to abuse Members? My manners are fine and my IQ is quite satisfatory, thank you. Now run along and abuse someone else, thank you.

Please . . . I cannot engage with someone with your level of simplicity . . . I have requested you cease harassing me . . . .please

[Griska]

Please . . . I cannot engage with someone with your level of simplicity . . . I have requested you cease harassing me . . . .please

Comrade, you obviously are here for some bizarre, attention seeking buzz. It would be best if you took a look at what a site is for before diving in and making yourself look silly.

[Lifeisagame]

Comrade, you obviously are here for some bizarre, attention seeking buzz. It would be best if you took a look at what a site is for before diving in and making yourself look silly.
Thank you

[Tommy]

Thank you

Please . . . I cannot engage with someone with your level of simplicity . . . I have requested you cease harassing me and referring to me. . . .please

[Lifeisagame]

Moderator intervention required here please.

[Sidewinder]

Well, having started off with your usual abusive comment, I gather you are going to build a bunker for yourself, because the Whole World is corrupt.
Regarding people wanting to be guided or led, what is wrong with that? Some people genuinely feel more comfortable having someone lead the way.
But let us try to come back to our internal reality, Ireland and the mess.
Ranting about it is not going to get anywhere. Trying to correct it all at once is unrealistic.
The first thing we need is a Leader and we do not have that in Any Party. But I believe there is a Leader among us and people should urge those they believe have potential to go forward.
Now we need a Government, but it must be transparent and set up to take the Whole Country into it's decision making process. The people will elect a new Government soon and if it is the wrong mix then the country will collapse and your vision will come through. But we, the citizens have a part to play and the future will be in our hands when and if we decide to walk into a Ballot Box.
But whatever happens, life will go on and we will adjust. The damage is done and now we will pay for it, but there are generations to follow us and we owe it to them to try.

You know, after you starting this discussion by attacking me for apparently "only ever complaining and not making any suggestions" - which was completely untrue - you then unleash this stream of mindless Lenny-esque gibberish.

None of that post actually means anything you know. It's just emotionalist handwringing appeals to.....well, do nothing much, respect your betters, and muddle through the same as always, as far as I can make out.

I really should have learned to stop responding to you after the last few turns on the merry-go-round with you. Yer a content-free zone, LIAG. And whether knowingly or not, an agent of confusion and apathy.

[Lifeisagame]

You know, after you starting this discussion by attacking me for apparently "only ever complaining and not making any suggestions" - which was completely untrue - you then unleash this stream of mindless Lenny-esque gibberish.

None of that post actually means anything you know. It's just emotionalist handwringing appeals to.....well, do nothing much, respect your betters, and muddle through the same as always, as far as I can make out.

I really should have learned to stop responding to you after the last few turns on the merry-go-round with you. Yer a content-free zone, LIAG. And whether knowingly or not, an agent of confusion and apathy.
:D But you know I am not and enjoy Posting with you too.:D

[Tommy]

You know, after you starting this discussion by attacking me for apparently "only ever complaining and not making any suggestions" - which was completely untrue - you then unleash this stream of mindless Lenny-esque gibberish.

None of that post actually means anything you know. It's just emotionalist handwringing appeals to.....well, do nothing much, respect your betters, and muddle through the same as always, as far as I can make out.

I really should have learned to stop responding to you after the last few turns on the merry-go-round with you. Yer a content-free zone, LIAG. And whether knowingly or not, an agent of confusion and apathy.

Agreed, IQ issues I reckon.....he thinks he's smarter than he is (which isnt very), best ignored until he has an IQ boost

[RahenyFG]

I'd be up for a reverse Tallaght Strategy with Fianna Fáil propping up a minority Fine Gael government rather than a FF/FG coalition. FG will have their hands up in this government thanks to FF's four year plan so it's the least FF can do. Then again, FF don't do what's right for the country. It's all about the party.

[C. Flower]

Arseology as usual. I've been advocating alternative policies here and on the other parish for the last 6 years and I'm tired of repeating myself to fearful status-quo merchants.

Rip out the corruption, jail the corrupt, liquidate the corrupt insolvent banks, dismantle the rigged and corrupt markets and dodgy support mechanisms for artificially-inflated prices across the Irish economy, radically overhaul all the failed institutions of this failed pseudo-republic, dismantle the reactionary mind-destroying "education" system in Ireland, renege on the debts that lunatic Lendahand has racked up in the banks. The entire global system is a criminal one and continuing to "play the game, don't rock the boat, keep the head down, shure it'll all be grand" is a recipe for decades of slavery.

Not that any of this will ever actually happen of course, you'll all sleepwalk into slavery and be grateful for it. Me, I'm going to protect myself and continue to adjust my position in life so that I'm as disconnected from the criminal system as possible.

If there's one thing the last decade has taught me it's that most people don't want to confront the truth and don't want to hear how things actually are. They want lollipops, promises of jam today, comfort blankies about the hard work being done by their glorious leaders, in fact I'd go so far as to say that the large majority of people want to be controlled, directed, dependent, told what to think and how to behave.

It's not a game I'm willing to play, but hey if it makes you happy then continue wearing those psychological chains.

Is there any permutation of the current political parties that you think would deliver on that manifesto? - remove corruption - default - reform education - I agree that there If the system is inherently corrupt, what system would you prefer? Is there any other state that has a market that you feel is well regulated ?

It would appear to me that Sinn Fein proposes a similar set of policies, but personally I don't think corruption is an Irish problem, or that the market would function well, if it were not for corruption, and I'm sceptical of their approach. Avoidance of regulation is part and parcel of the system, not an aberration. The crisis in Ireland stems from overproduction more than it does from corruption. It's not the first of such bubble and burst crises by any means.

[Baron von Biffo]

I'd be up for a reverse Tallaght Strategy with Fianna Fáil propping up a minority Fine Gael government rather than a FF/FG coalition. FG will have their hands up in this government thanks to FF's four year plan so it's the least FF can do. Then again, FF don't do what's right for the country. It's all about the party.

Why post here if you're going to post complaints in the neighbouring parish?


I have a politicalworld.org account but it's pretty pointless having one. It's a poorman's(or poorwoman in this case) politics.ie. There ain't enough titles in threads but of course it's going less than a year.

http://www.politics.ie/feedback/125135-new-home-banned-politicalworld-org-9.html#post3320595

[C. Flower]

Why post here if you're going to post complaints in the neighbouring parish?

http://www.politics.ie/feedback/125135-new-home-banned-politicalworld-org-9.html#post3320595

He/she can't resist the attraction of quality posting ;)

[ang]

Why post here if you're going to post complaints in the neighbouring parish?



http://www.politics.ie/feedback/125135-new-home-banned-politicalworld-org-9.html#post3320595

All publicity is good publicity Baron ;)

[Tommy]

why are there 2 sites? Politics.ie and this one ? Would it not make sense to have all together discussing politics ?

[Lifeisagame]

why are there 2 sites? Politics.ie and this one ? Would it not make sense to have all together discussing politics ?


This is better Moderated.

[Dr. FIVE]

Not moderated by loons at least

[C. Flower]

Any chance whatsover of posting on the topic, would you think ? :)

I'd be happy to pare off these posts to Site Feedback.

[TotalMayhem]

It's only logical for FF to make advances to FG (although I don't think a minority FG government backed by FF is an option). A weakened Fianna Fáil party must be much more appealing as a coalition partner to FG than Labour 'on steroids' after recent polls.

On top of that, Labour is continuously outmaneuvering themselves by denying SF as a viable partner, thus they are being left completely without options and literally at the mercy of FG, they might wake up empty handed after the next election.

[Apjp]

I'd be up for a reverse Tallaght Strategy with Fianna Fáil propping up a minority Fine Gael government rather than a FF/FG coalition. FG will have their hands up in this government thanks to FF's four year plan so it's the least FF can do. Then again, FF don't do what's right for the country. It's all about the party.

Many people might say the same about FG. I think you are both very similar-yet for some reason I want rid of FF and dont really care if FG are wiped out or not. In short, FG as an opposition party do not annoy me nearly as much as a revived FF. I guess it is because FF have actually done everything wrong that could have been dreamt of. From the view of a left person like myself, I think FG will always be around-though not always in power. FF?

Not sure. I envisage a left govt within the next five-ten years. FG could well team up with FF and be in power with ganleys new crowd, the green p remnants and a few gombins like danny healy rae. In any case, I look forward to the growth of the ind's/others which the Irish Times has at 14% recently. This is just newspeak for left parties-in other words, the newspapers are mostly right wing so they dont even name us as that is publicity not well afforded to the awful sickle men who in comparison with the pro privatisation parties are all stalinists that must not be named. oh the thought....

[Apjp]

I think there will be a lot of shocks over the next deacde for the major 3 parties. the electorate will only become ore hungry and ferocious as time moves on. I, personally, envisage 25% unemployment by the end of the next govt term. The CSO could be cesnored to block this fact arising officially as emigration and govt. interference could keep it below 20%, as has been allegedly done(whispers I hear from retired civil servants on the censoring bit, but come on if charlie recorded phone calls and took envelopes, Im sure he'd have had no quarrels doing this) in the past.

I think all 3 major parties could be virtually wiped out in the next deacde-this crisis will be worse than the great depression(if it is not already). We have already seen much of what then happened, although the causes are of far greater numbers and more diverse natures. My own view is that there may be 3 blocs of Irish politics-the SF vote, the ultra left vote, and the ultra right vote of ganley et al. Or, the ULa AND sf may eventually join forces once they work past their differences. I believe they both have more in common than they say. Like I said elsewhere, a left govt within ten years, maybe five.

[Lifeisagame]

I think there will be a lot of shocks over the next deacde for the major 3 parties. the electorate will only become ore hungry and ferocious as time moves on. I, personally, envisage 25% unemployment by the end of the next govt term. The CSO could be cesnored to block this fact arising officially as emigration and govt. interference could keep it below 20%, as has been allegedly done(whispers I hear from retired civil servants on the censoring bit, but come on if charlie recorded phone calls and took envelopes, Im sure he'd have had no quarrels doing this) in the past.

I think all 3 major parties could be virtually wiped out in the next deacde-this crisis will be worse than the great depression(if it is not already). We have already seen much of what then happened, although the causes are of far greater numbers and more diverse natures. My own view is that there may be 3 blocs of Irish politics-the SF vote, the ultra left vote, and the ultra right vote of ganley et al. Or, the ULa AND sf may eventually join forces once they work past their differences. I believe they both have more in common than they say. Like I said elsewhere, a left govt within ten years, maybe five.
Why and what do you believe a Left Government will give us that will be better than Right?

[disability student]

In a bizarre form of words, the Independent is talking today about an "FF backed FG single party government."

An FF-FG coalition, surely ?

This should not come as any surprise, as both parties have a much bigger interest in squeezing out the possibility of a left-dominated government than they do obstructing each other.

The Tallaght Strategy and the failure to try to pull together a government in 2007 would suggest that FG has no fundamental / in principle objection to forming a government.

This debate last emerged seriously at the time of the attempted heave against Kenny run by Bruton and followers. At that stage, Kenny, who seems to represent some kind of FG independence tendency, won out.
The move of the IMF/EU into Irish governance fits like a glove with Bruton's politics.

I am wondering if the Independent article, as well as being a "flyer" about FG/FF alliance, is linked to another anti-Kenny heave process?

The advantage of such an alliance would be that it forces Labour once and for all to put up or shut up and that it would put both FF and FG to the electoral test.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html

Yes it's a non story particulary coming from the sindo.. a FF 'paper'. I take it as pinch of salt:)

It's part and parcel of FF disinformation campaign to discredit the other political parties. Typical of FF when they are down.

[Apjp]

Why and what do you believe a Left Government will give us that will be better than Right?

Well this is worth a thread on its own, Life. Perhaps CF could make a thread out of it, or get one of the mods to do so for me-if others are interested in discussing this topic more broadly and in depth. I will just outline the key points in relation to what I believe a left govt can do that a right cannot, and obv. as a democratic socialist, my views will be left in nature-so judge them and draw your own conclusions as you see fit with that in mind.

1. A decent health service based on socialised medicine and an abolition of health insurance markets on the low and lower middle class earners. My Dad had to work 13 years for a medical card on a single family income of 27k punt and its euro equivalent. 3 years later he lost his job-many others have lost their job and still are waiting on medical cards. how can it be right that a big family earning so little has to pay health insurance? Dad just didn't buy any for himself as it cost so much. Obv. private insurance could remain for those who could afford it.

2. The confiscation of our gas stocks from Shell. These were sold without democratic approval. Many people believe that 600 billion euro plus worth of gas is too big a decision for ray burke and bertie ahern to take into their own hands and sell. Even if it required retrospective legislation, this is not up for debate and would give a new, devalued currency some weight in gold. We stop buying our petrol, oil and diesel privately and buy it directly from venezueala and nigeria, and sell it cheaper as a result having bout it cheaper(with small income tax too). This would benefit businesses and consumers for a long period of time. the abolition of all tolls fr Lorries and private bus companies is alos a must to boost the logistics and transport sectors.

3. A new devalued currency to be a fifth of the euro, or less and boost exports in the process. Vietnam has a dvealued currency, as does China, Japan, and the scandanavian countries as well as poland. Prices are controlled, wages are lower, and everything is more affordable as a result.

4. A state holdings company to transfer the sovereign debt of 13.3 billion euro, as well as the bilateral loans from Sweden, Denmark and Britain, into equity in an Irish state investment arm which would use our revenues to invest in domestic enterprise. Once we clear the national debt into equity, we can then take over the domestic stock market in a state owned manner, like Vietnam, China, and some of the scandanavian states. Using the domestic stock market, public controlled trade can be taxed(very acutely, but with small taxes with little effect) with investment duties of 0.5%. This is done in highly regulated and publicly controlled state stock exchanges worldwide, particularly in Asia. State investment for equity in promising domestic projects is also important as it would increase the domestic supplier base. It is also important to increase internal trade between these new firms of less than 20 staff(sme's) and MNC's. A private domestic trade deal could be negotiated which would see the following occur, at least the way I see it as possible:

-streamlined corporation tax. i.e.highest rate is 14.75%, next rate is 13.75%, and lowest is 12.75% for the low earning companies, new SME's and sole traders. This ensures competetive, but adequate taxation levels on Irish enterprise. Furthermore, with the state investing in domestic companies for a small share in their business(say 25% or less), more revenue comes in from this equity, some sell offs, and so on.

-a guaranteed minimum wage of ten euro punt equivalent. Contrary to popular belief, it is mostly the pub and hotel industry that is enforcing pay cuts, and not MNC's.

-a trade agreement to give Irish businesses first preference for state contracts, for buying of supplies for MNC's, and for sub contracting from MNC's.

5. An equitable taxation system. The introduction of streamlined DIRT(where the lowest savers pay the lowest tax), a once off savings tax(via a referendum) of 12% to raise much needed revenue from all savings nationwide above 70k. There are 96 billion euro worth of deposits in all Irish and Irish based financial institutions. the once off tax might spark a small flight, but if the referendum is passed, it could still raise some billions in revenue. There is also reportedly 4 billion euro alone in income tax that could be achieved from earners of 80k plus p/a. Right parties are all about low taxes and cutting everyone to survive-even the poor.

6. The abolition of 1.5 billion of the 3.5 billion state pension subsidies scheme. 2 billion remaining would be used to subsidise pensions for low earning public and private workers who earn beneath 50k a year.

7. The introduction of streamlined thrid level fees, and marginally higher(but not regressively high-I am talking about maybe 0.5%-1.5% based on income levels p/w) PRSI for grant recepients. the fees could be 3'000 euro for all families earning 100k plus gross income, 2'100 for all families earning 75k plus-99k gross income, and 1'500 for all families earning below 75k. All families on the current grant threshold level should remain so, only jobs must be created so that the grants can be repaid in taxes over time, in a manner not effecting an employee's income so much so that they would emigrate.

8. The abolition of every quango board with new independently appointed service boards for every public service-all working for the average industrial wage with little or no expenses.

9. the abolition of all political expenses(except foreign travel, we use ryanair and our partially controlled aer lingus and aer arann for that), 3 seats per constituency(129 overall), term limits of 4 by 4 years for the Dail, and 2 by 4 years for the president, the councils, and the european parliament. President earns 70k, TDs(including all govt Tds) to earn 55k, all councillors to earn 15k, all MEP's to earn 55k. All pensions to be taxed at 5% and be restricted to 10-15% of income p/a for years serviced. Seanad to be abolished(though most people want this anyways), participatory democracy of abolishing the party whip permanently with a new constitution and referendums on contestable legislation that receive 100k signatures and which are put before the president. People's decision is binding. Dail is empowered, and govt is accountable. Then the govt can only lose 5 votes in one term before an election must be called. This is in light of the fact that not every motion defeated would call for an election-its why you would have citizens assemblies and referenda in the new constitution, which is urgently needed for many reasons.

[Lifeisagame]

Do you have to give me so much work Apjp:eek:

Well this is worth a thread on its own, Life. Perhaps CF could make a thread out of it, or get one of the mods to do so for me-if others are interested in discussing this topic more broadly and in depth. I will just outline the key points in relation to what I believe a left govt can do that a right cannot, and obv. as a democratic socialist, my views will be left in nature-so judge them and draw your own conclusions as you see fit with that in mind.

1. A decent health service based on socialised medicine and an abolition of health insurance markets on the low and lower middle class earners. My Dad had to work 13 years for a medical card on a single family income of 27k punt and its euro equivalent. 3 years later he lost his job-many others have lost their job and still are waiting on medical cards. how can it be right that a big family earning so little has to pay health insurance? Dad just didn't buy any for himself as it cost so much. Obv. private insurance could remain for those who could afford it.
Good point but I do not think you need a Left Gov to achieve this. Proper management of the Health Service will make it affordable for all and in fact, may lessen the need for Private Insurance.

2. The confiscation of our gas stocks from Shell. These were sold without democratic approval. Many people believe that 600 billion euro plus worth of gas is too big a decision for ray burke and bertie ahern to take into their own hands and sell. Even if it required retrospective legislation, this is not up for debate and would give a new, devalued currency some weight in gold. We stop buying our petrol, oil and diesel privately and buy it directly from venezueala and nigeria, and sell it cheaper as a result having bout it cheaper(with small income tax too). This would benefit businesses and consumers for a long period of time. the abolition of all tolls fr Lorries and private bus companies is alos a must to boost the logistics and transport sectors.
We do not have the infrastructure to manage it ourselves and one usually gains more by leaving it to the experts.
Tolls in this country are relatively small and are need if you wish to maintain a good network. However, if you want to stop them, you must include All business using the Toll, i.e. Salesmen.
Frankly, this point is not a really good reason to go Left.


3. A new devalued currency to be a fifth of the euro, or less and boost exports in the process. Vietnam has a dvealued currency, as does China, Japan, and the scandanavian countries as well as poland. Prices are controlled, wages are lower, and everything is more affordable as a result.
Must dispute this point. Japan and Scandanavia have higher wages, higher prices and higher taxes. Japan cannot get off it's knees. Poland, the salaries and the cost of living are rising rapidly.
China, do you really want a similar lifestyle to them? Vietnam, I am not familiar with.
Boosting exports is fine, what about the imports?
However, an Irish Currency has some merits if properly managed. Scandanavia did avoid the worst of the recesssion.

4. A state holdings company to transfer the sovereign debt of 13.3 billion euro, as well as the bilateral loans from Sweden, Denmark and Britain, into equity in an Irish state investment arm which would use our revenues to invest in domestic enterprise. Once we clear the national debt into equity, we can then take over the domestic stock market in a state owned manner, like Vietnam, China, and some of the scandanavian states. Using the domestic stock market, public controlled trade can be taxed(very acutely, but with small taxes with little effect) with investment duties of 0.5%. This is done in highly regulated and publicly controlled state stock exchanges worldwide, particularly in Asia. State investment for equity in promising domestic projects is also important as it would increase the domestic supplier base. It is also important to increase internal trade between these new firms of less than 20 staff(sme's) and MNC's. A private domestic trade deal could be negotiated which would see the following occur, at least the way I see it as possible:
Again you are skating too close to Chinafor my liking and I see zero benefit for Irish People there, only hardship.

-streamlined corporation tax. i.e.highest rate is 14.75%, next rate is 13.75%, and lowest is 12.75% for the low earning companies, new SME's and sole traders. This ensures competetive, but adequate taxation levels on Irish enterprise. Furthermore, with the state investing in domestic companies for a small share in their business(say 25% or less), more revenue comes in from this equity, some sell offs, and so on.
Ok Globals don't care where they invest as long as if is safe and they make money.
I see no benefit for using taxpayers money to invest in Business and it would probably have Legal issues as well if you intend staying in the EU, Barrier to Trade.


-a guaranteed minimum wage of ten euro punt equivalent. Contrary to popular belief, it is mostly the pub and hotel industry that is enforcing pay cuts, and not MNC's.
Total agreement here

-a trade agreement to give Irish businesses first preference for state contracts, for buying of supplies for MNC's, and for sub contracting from MNC's.
Anti-competetive, illrgal within EU and will make FDIs worried. Bad move.

5. An equitable taxation system. The introduction of streamlined DIRT(where the lowest savers pay the lowest tax), a once off savings tax(via a referendum) of 12% to raise much needed revenue from all savings nationwide above 70k. There are 96 billion euro worth of deposits in all Irish and Irish based financial institutions. the once off tax might spark a small flight, but if the referendum is passed, it could still raise some billions in revenue. There is also reportedly 4 billion euro alone in income tax that could be achieved from earners of 80k plus p/a. Right parties are all about low taxes and cutting everyone to survive-even the poor.
A move to tax savings will cause an immediate and massive run on the banks, business depositers would probably get skittish too and run. Very dangerous move and could seriously damage us more.
I agree there is a balance to be struck between high and low earners. But if you want serious professionals then you have to pay for them. People move around Europe now much quicker than before, we are no longer just home birds.


6. The abolition of 1.5 billion of the 3.5 billion state pension subsidies scheme. 2 billion remaining would be used to subsidise pensions for low earning public and private workers who earn beneath 50k a year.
Sounds more Right than Left.


7. The introduction of streamlined thrid level fees, and marginally higher(but not regressively high-I am talking about maybe 0.5%-1.5% based on income levels p/w) PRSI for grant recepients. the fees could be 3'000 euro for all families earning 100k plus gross income, 2'100 for all families earning 75k plus-99k gross income, and 1'500 for all families earning below 75k. All families on the current grant threshold level should remain so, only jobs must be created so that the grants can be repaid in taxes over time, in a manner not effecting an employee's income so much so that they would emigrate.
I believe Left or Right can live with this. But it will do zero for job creation.


8. The abolition of every quango board with new independently appointed service boards for every public service-all working for the average industrial wage with little or no expenses.
Right will love this, as will most others.

9. the abolition of all political expenses(except foreign travel, we use ryanair and our partially controlled aer lingus and aer arann for that), 3 seats per constituency(129 overall), term limits of 4 by 4 years for the Dail, and 2 by 4 years for the president, the councils, and the european parliament. President earns 70k, TDs(including all govt Tds) to earn 55k, all councillors to earn 15k, all MEP's to earn 55k. All pensions to be taxed at 5% and be restricted to 10-15% of income p/a for years serviced. Seanad to be abolished(though most people want this anyways), participatory democracy of abolishing the party whip permanently with a new constitution and referendums on contestable legislation that receive 100k signatures and which are put before the president. People's decision is binding. Dail is empowered, and govt is accountable. Then the govt can only lose 5 votes in one term before an election must be called. This is in light of the fact that not every motion defeated would call for an election-its why you would have citizens assemblies and referenda in the new constitution, which is urgently needed for many reasons.
This is not Left or Right, it is simply Proper Governance with the proper controls. Being Right does not mean corrupt no more than being Left means honesty.

In fairness you have many good points, but not enough to swing me left. But a lot of what you wish for would mean leaving the EU and you did not state that. What is your feeling on that?

[Apjp]

Do you have to give me so much work Apjp:eek:

Well this is worth a thread on its own, Life. Perhaps CF could make a thread out of it, or get one of the mods to do so for me-if others are interested in discussing this topic more broadly and in depth. I will just outline the key points in relation to what I believe a left govt can do that a right cannot, and obv. as a democratic socialist, my views will be left in nature-so judge them and draw your own conclusions as you see fit with that in mind.

1. A decent health service based on socialised medicine and an abolition of health insurance markets on the low and lower middle class earners. My Dad had to work 13 years for a medical card on a single family income of 27k punt and its euro equivalent. 3 years later he lost his job-many others have lost their job and still are waiting on medical cards. how can it be right that a big family earning so little has to pay health insurance? Dad just didn't buy any for himself as it cost so much. Obv. private insurance could remain for those who could afford it.
Good point but I do not think you need a Left Gov to achieve this. Proper management of the Health Service will make it affordable for all and in fact, may lessen the need for Private Insurance.

2. The confiscation of our gas stocks from Shell. These were sold without democratic approval. Many people believe that 600 billion euro plus worth of gas is too big a decision for ray burke and bertie ahern to take into their own hands and sell. Even if it required retrospective legislation, this is not up for debate and would give a new, devalued currency some weight in gold. We stop buying our petrol, oil and diesel privately and buy it directly from venezueala and nigeria, and sell it cheaper as a result having bout it cheaper(with small income tax too). This would benefit businesses and consumers for a long period of time. the abolition of all tolls fr Lorries and private bus companies is alos a must to boost the logistics and transport sectors.
We do not have the infrastructure to manage it ourselves and one usually gains more by leaving it to the experts.
Tolls in this country are relatively small and are need if you wish to maintain a good network. However, if you want to stop them, you must include All business using the Toll, i.e. Salesmen.
Frankly, this point is not a really good reason to go Left.


3. A new devalued currency to be a fifth of the euro, or less and boost exports in the process. Vietnam has a dvealued currency, as does China, Japan, and the scandanavian countries as well as poland. Prices are controlled, wages are lower, and everything is more affordable as a result.
Must dispute this point. Japan and Scandanavia have higher wages, higher prices and higher taxes. Japan cannot get off it's knees. Poland, the salaries and the cost of living are rising rapidly.
China, do you really want a similar lifestyle to them? Vietnam, I am not familiar with.
Boosting exports is fine, what about the imports?
However, an Irish Currency has some merits if properly managed. Scandanavia did avoid the worst of the recesssion.

4. A state holdings company to transfer the sovereign debt of 13.3 billion euro, as well as the bilateral loans from Sweden, Denmark and Britain, into equity in an Irish state investment arm which would use our revenues to invest in domestic enterprise. Once we clear the national debt into equity, we can then take over the domestic stock market in a state owned manner, like Vietnam, China, and some of the scandanavian states. Using the domestic stock market, public controlled trade can be taxed(very acutely, but with small taxes with little effect) with investment duties of 0.5%. This is done in highly regulated and publicly controlled state stock exchanges worldwide, particularly in Asia. State investment for equity in promising domestic projects is also important as it would increase the domestic supplier base. It is also important to increase internal trade between these new firms of less than 20 staff(sme's) and MNC's. A private domestic trade deal could be negotiated which would see the following occur, at least the way I see it as possible:
Again you are skating too close to Chinafor my liking and I see zero benefit for Irish People there, only hardship.

-streamlined corporation tax. i.e.highest rate is 14.75%, next rate is 13.75%, and lowest is 12.75% for the low earning companies, new SME's and sole traders. This ensures competetive, but adequate taxation levels on Irish enterprise. Furthermore, with the state investing in domestic companies for a small share in their business(say 25% or less), more revenue comes in from this equity, some sell offs, and so on.
Ok Globals don't care where they invest as long as if is safe and they make money.
I see no benefit for using taxpayers money to invest in Business and it would probably have Legal issues as well if you intend staying in the EU, Barrier to Trade.


-a guaranteed minimum wage of ten euro punt equivalent. Contrary to popular belief, it is mostly the pub and hotel industry that is enforcing pay cuts, and not MNC's.
Total agreement here

-a trade agreement to give Irish businesses first preference for state contracts, for buying of supplies for MNC's, and for sub contracting from MNC's.
Anti-competetive, illrgal within EU and will make FDIs worried. Bad move.

5. An equitable taxation system. The introduction of streamlined DIRT(where the lowest savers pay the lowest tax), a once off savings tax(via a referendum) of 12% to raise much needed revenue from all savings nationwide above 70k. There are 96 billion euro worth of deposits in all Irish and Irish based financial institutions. the once off tax might spark a small flight, but if the referendum is passed, it could still raise some billions in revenue. There is also reportedly 4 billion euro alone in income tax that could be achieved from earners of 80k plus p/a. Right parties are all about low taxes and cutting everyone to survive-even the poor.
A move to tax savings will cause an immediate and massive run on the banks, business depositers would probably get skittish too and run. Very dangerous move and could seriously damage us more.
I agree there is a balance to be struck between high and low earners. But if you want serious professionals then you have to pay for them. People move around Europe now much quicker than before, we are no longer just home birds.


6. The abolition of 1.5 billion of the 3.5 billion state pension subsidies scheme. 2 billion remaining would be used to subsidise pensions for low earning public and private workers who earn beneath 50k a year.
Sounds more Right than Left.


7. The introduction of streamlined thrid level fees, and marginally higher(but not regressively high-I am talking about maybe 0.5%-1.5% based on income levels p/w) PRSI for grant recepients. the fees could be 3'000 euro for all families earning 100k plus gross income, 2'100 for all families earning 75k plus-99k gross income, and 1'500 for all families earning below 75k. All families on the current grant threshold level should remain so, only jobs must be created so that the grants can be repaid in taxes over time, in a manner not effecting an employee's income so much so that they would emigrate.
I believe Left or Right can live with this. But it will do zero for job creation.


8. The abolition of every quango board with new independently appointed service boards for every public service-all working for the average industrial wage with little or no expenses.
Right will love this, as will most others.

9. the abolition of all political expenses(except foreign travel, we use ryanair and our partially controlled aer lingus and aer arann for that), 3 seats per constituency(129 overall), term limits of 4 by 4 years for the Dail, and 2 by 4 years for the president, the councils, and the european parliament. President earns 70k, TDs(including all govt Tds) to earn 55k, all councillors to earn 15k, all MEP's to earn 55k. All pensions to be taxed at 5% and be restricted to 10-15% of income p/a for years serviced. Seanad to be abolished(though most people want this anyways), participatory democracy of abolishing the party whip permanently with a new constitution and referendums on contestable legislation that receive 100k signatures and which are put before the president. People's decision is binding. Dail is empowered, and govt is accountable. Then the govt can only lose 5 votes in one term before an election must be called. This is in light of the fact that not every motion defeated would call for an election-its why you would have citizens assemblies and referenda in the new constitution, which is urgently needed for many reasons.
This is not Left or Right, it is simply Proper Governance with the proper controls. Being Right does not mean corrupt no more than being Left means honesty.

In fairness you have many good points, but not enough to swing me left. But a lot of what you wish for would mean leaving the EU and you did not state that. What is your feeling on that?

Thanks for the replies. As regards the eurozone, obv I defintely think we should leave it. By the way Vietnam is the most sustainable socialist economy-it is why I cite them a lot-and a quick wikpedia on them will tell you why. I don't think Poland is actually socialist-but they ahve devalued their currency and avoided the recession. that was more of a related point than a left one. Denmark is probably the best example closest to us of how a low valued currency can boost exports and help keep unemployment low. Unemployment has not risen above 8% there and it is currently about 5-7% last i heard-they are about the same size population wise as us, so that is fairly good.

If we left the EU, it could benefit us. I don't know if its as simple as do it or don't do it. The pros and cons must be weighed up. I mean, if a domestic trade agreement with FDI's and domestic enterprise is illegal, then yes I think we should either seek a change to this law, as well as renegotiated fishing rights(that industry is worth at least 2 billion euro a year)-otherwise we should leave the EU. I mean, what have we to lose? It's for ourselves to decide how we want to run things. Do we want to bailout our creditors consistently whilst people starve and die from, the cold and on hospital trollies, or do we want to run everything ourselves as best we can? Personally I think we should leave the EU, if these agreements cannot be reached. And dont forget, it is in our interest to default and have a for of debt forgiveness on AIB and BOI-it is not in France's, Germany's or Britain's(the 4.8 trillion pound indebted nation!).

It doesn't mean protectionism. We would still be part of the EEA-and even if were not, the ability to secure internal trade deals that benefit the tax system with marginally higher and streamlined rates, a secure, reasonable and thus taxable minimum wage(If 10e was the minimum wage, it could be taxed at an affordable manner to the worker-even if its only a token 20cent-40 cent), trade agreements between indigeounous suppliers and FDI's-which reduces imports-a devalued currency, secure pension schemes for only those who need them, and streamlined frozen VAT rates, corporation tax, and so on. And if the once off savings tax is too high, then streamlined savings taxes(i.e. lower saver pay lower DIRT, higher savers pay higher, but not too high DIRT) and a 0.5% wealth levy of savings above 100k could be imposed. I mean if I have 100k savings and I pay 2.5% tax p/a in additional DIRT and levies on it on top of the current rates-is that really enough to ensure every saver flies to switzerland and puts their money in swiss francs? I doubt it. Still, I can see your fears. But we must get those with money to spend, spending, and those who just want to stash their money away because they don't need to spend, must be taxed in an equitable manner.

The only question I have is an internal trade deal against WTO(world trade org.) rules? I don't see why it would be as it is an internal economic matter. With the WTO's views on lessening EU laws against importing tax free non-EU products, we need internal trade agreements to protect and create Irish jobs. BTW Life, the state already invests money in homegrown enterprise on a very small scale. The problem is the money often goes to a mate of a politician or someone connected. And, unlike in every other major state investing country, there is no return on investment except in tax. It would make sense from any point of view, LEFT and Business wise for a cash for equity deal on the best business projects.

Perhaps I will ask a mod to set up a thread on the prospects of internal trade deals to benefit state revenues, public and private homegrown enterprise, Workers, and FDI's. I think this is an issue we need to look at, and if it can be done to boost the Irish economy, then perhaps 'the common good' is greater than the EU's need to scapegoat ourselves, Greece and the rest of the periphery nations.

[Murra]

why are there 2 sites? Politics.ie and this one ? Would it not make sense to have all together discussing politics ?

Tommy, this is a more 'up-market' discussion forum to the other one. The other one allows trolls to come in and ruin any half-decent discussion with insults and abusive posts. That site has degraded into a cess pit of aggression for every p*ss head and coke head in the country. Fortunately, it's not tolerated here. Here, there is a 'play the ball, not the man' rule, which obviously seems to have passed over your head - or maybe you just didn't read the rules?

Please refrain from making derogatory remarks about any poster here. Whatever the political differences might be, there is NO reason to treat people disrespectfully, even if you think their comments are unfounded or ridiculous.

[Tommy]

Tommy, this is a more 'up-market' discussion forum to the other one. The other one allows trolls to come in and ruin any half-decent discussion with insults and abusive posts. That site has degraded into a cess pit of aggression for every p*ss head and coke head in the country. Fortunately, it's not tolerated here. Here, there is a 'play the ball, not the man' rule, which obviously seems to have passed over your head - or maybe you just didn't read the rules? Please refrain from making derogatory remarks about any poster here. Whatever the political differences might be, there is NO reason to treat people disrespectfully, even if you think their comments are unfounded or ridiculous.
What are you talking about ? I cant make much sense from your post to me . . . .please refrain from posting at me it in such manner. . .

[C. Flower]

What are you talking about ? I cant make much sense from your post to me . . . .please refrain from posting at me it in such manner. . .

I'm afraid that your trolling is of such poor quality that once again, we will have to ban you.

It's sad to think that a person could not make a better job of it.

[People Korps]

In a bizarre form of words, the Independent is talking today about an "FF backed FG single party government."

An FF-FG coalition, surely ?

This should not come as any surprise, as both parties have a much bigger interest in squeezing out the possibility of a left-dominated government than they do obstructing each other.

The Tallaght Strategy and the failure to try to pull together a government in 2007 would suggest that FG has no fundamental / in principle objection to forming a government.

This debate last emerged seriously at the time of the attempted heave against Kenny run by Bruton and followers. At that stage, Kenny, who seems to represent some kind of FG independence tendency, won out.
The move of the IMF/EU into Irish governance fits like a glove with Bruton's politics.

I am wondering if the Independent article, as well as being a "flyer" about FG/FF alliance, is linked to another anti-Kenny heave process?

The advantage of such an alliance would be that it forces Labour once and for all to put up or shut up and that it would put both FF and FG to the electoral test.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html

Without bothering searching my posts did I not tell you all that this was the most likely outcome after the last polls and even before that, how many times did i say this on this forum.....

tis time \PK started getting paid for his work methinks

[People Korps]

Yes it's a non story particulary coming from the sindo.. a FF 'paper'. I take it as pinch of salt:)

It's part and parcel of FF disinformation campaign to discredit the other political parties. Typical of FF when they are down.

The Indo is traditionally a FG paper get your head screwed on ffs

[Baron von Biffo]

The Indo is traditionally a FG paper get your head screwed on ffs

It was traditionally FG but for most of the Ahern/Cowen era it's been solidly FF. There are indications that with the demise of FF Mr. Beans is taking it back to its roots.

[Lifeisagame]

Thanks for the replies. As regards the eurozone, obv I defintely think we should leave it. By the way Vietnam is the most sustainable socialist economy-it is why I cite them a lot-and a quick wikpedia on them will tell you why. I don't think Poland is actually socialist-but they ahve devalued their currency and avoided the recession. that was more of a related point than a left one. Denmark is probably the best example closest to us of how a low valued currency can boost exports and help keep unemployment low. Unemployment has not risen above 8% there and it is currently about 5-7% last i heard-they are about the same size population wise as us, so that is fairly good.

If we left the EU, it could benefit us. I don't know if its as simple as do it or don't do it. The pros and cons must be weighed up. I mean, if a domestic trade agreement with FDI's and domestic enterprise is illegal, then yes I think we should either seek a change to this law, as well as renegotiated fishing rights(that industry is worth at least 2 billion euro a year)-otherwise we should leave the EU. I mean, what have we to lose? It's for ourselves to decide how we want to run things. Do we want to bailout our creditors consistently whilst people starve and die from, the cold and on hospital trollies, or do we want to run everything ourselves as best we can? Personally I think we should leave the EU, if these agreements cannot be reached. And dont forget, it is in our interest to default and have a for of debt forgiveness on AIB and BOI-it is not in France's, Germany's or Britain's(the 4.8 trillion pound indebted nation!).

It doesn't mean protectionism. We would still be part of the EEA-and even if were not, the ability to secure internal trade deals that benefit the tax system with marginally higher and streamlined rates, a secure, reasonable and thus taxable minimum wage(If 10e was the minimum wage, it could be taxed at an affordable manner to the worker-even if its only a token 20cent-40 cent), trade agreements between indigeounous suppliers and FDI's-which reduces imports-a devalued currency, secure pension schemes for only those who need them, and streamlined frozen VAT rates, corporation tax, and so on. And if the once off savings tax is too high, then streamlined savings taxes(i.e. lower saver pay lower DIRT, higher savers pay higher, but not too high DIRT) and a 0.5% wealth levy of savings above 100k could be imposed. I mean if I have 100k savings and I pay 2.5% tax p/a in additional DIRT and levies on it on top of the current rates-is that really enough to ensure every saver flies to switzerland and puts their money in swiss francs? I doubt it. Still, I can see your fears. But we must get those with money to spend, spending, and those who just want to stash their money away because they don't need to spend, must be taxed in an equitable manner.

The only question I have is an internal trade deal against WTO(world trade org.) rules? I don't see why it would be as it is an internal economic matter. With the WTO's views on lessening EU laws against importing tax free non-EU products, we need internal trade agreements to protect and create Irish jobs. BTW Life, the state already invests money in homegrown enterprise on a very small scale. The problem is the money often goes to a mate of a politician or someone connected. And, unlike in every other major state investing country, there is no return on investment except in tax. It would make sense from any point of view, LEFT and Business wise for a cash for equity deal on the best business projects.

Perhaps I will ask a mod to set up a thread on the prospects of internal trade deals to benefit state revenues, public and private homegrown enterprise, Workers, and FDI's. I think this is an issue we need to look at, and if it can be done to boost the Irish economy, then perhaps 'the common good' is greater than the EU's need to scapegoat ourselves, Greece and the rest of the periphery nations.
Apjp
You have got to imagine what the FDIs would think if we went Maverick, they would be scared off until such a time as we proved we could manage, if we could. Radical changes to our position in Europe right now could have a major detrimental effect on on inward investment. Basicaly if you take Europe, we are just about hanging off the end of it location wise. So right now because of the revelations of corruption, we do not have good cards in our hands to play.
Barriers to Trade are very serious no matter where you are, Corporations will take the Government to Court and win if they implement them. That is unless you are China, which we are not and never will be.
Internal investment, which I used, in fact was an advisor on, is usefull but not a long term solution, it certainly helped us as we got over the bump. But we are a Manufacturer that is a gross exporter and we are now riding the recovery wave, if that is what it is. Why I say that is we are all nervous that the consumer has started to buy our products but we are not yet sure if the increased orders from Distributors is just a re-stocking process, 2 more months will tell.
Vietnam, Asia etc you are dealing with a major cultural difference that we could never cope with, I spendserious time there but as I said, not Vietnam.
Poland, of course the unemployment stayed low, they just became transient in Europe and followed the work/money and they were right.
Regarding your reference to wikpedia, I recently was a part of our Industry Delegation that overturned a ruling by the EU as they commissioned a report on an aspect of our industry and the main bibliography was wikpedia and they could not stand over it, so be careful there.
Leaving the EU is not going to improve the management of our country. We are appallingly bad and Corrupt, the EU did not cause that, our Government and Opposition did. Also, the EU is not going to resolve it, that is our problem.
Duty on goods coming into Europe is getting more strict and in fact, by coincedence, there is a New Ruling passed by EU Legislation that comes into effect on January 1st. It is tough but I know no indigeneous company that has read it.
They are in for a shock next week when our customs slap a hold on their freight for incorrect documentation. So EU is getting tough on imports and about time too.
Fisheries, it is a tough unregulated game that would cost us Billionns to patrol our waters, can we afford it? Doubt it.
Finally, I willl say this, the vast majority of problems in Ireland now are Irish grown. We need to clean our house before we look outside at other areas, the EU did not make this Country Corrupt our Government Facilitated the Corruption and our next Government will not resolve it.