Wikileaks: 'Adams and McGuinness alleged to be aware of plans for Northern Bank robbery

[PaddyJoe]

More Irish cables:

Gerry Adams (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/gerryadams) and Martin McGuinness (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/martin-mcguinness) held lengthy negotiations with the former Irish prime minister Bertie Ahern to save the Northern Ireland (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/northernireland) peace process in the full knowledge that the IRA (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/ira) was planning to carry out the biggest bank robbery in its history, according to leaked US cables passed to WikiLeaks.
Ahern, who was instrumental in drawing up the 1998 Good Friday agreement, judged that the two Sinn Féin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/sinn-fein) leaders were aware of plans for the £26.5m Northern Bank robbery in 2004 because they were members of the "IRA military command" with a deep knowledge of its operations.
The US cables also reveal that:
• The Irish government believed Britain had a "valuable source of information (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/66093)" at a senior level in the republican movement.
• Adams argued that the IRA would have to be "taken out of the equation (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/33538)" during negotiations which led the organisation to declare a formal end to its armed campaign in July 2005.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/12/wikileaks-sinn-fein-northern-bank

[Lá an Lúbáin]

Is there anything new in this that differs from Bertie's or the Mad Mullah's opinion in 2005?

[C. Flower]

More Irish cables:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/12/wikileaks-sinn-fein-northern-bank


The cables indicate that in private Ahern and officials used language which was slightly blunter, though consistent, with the public pronouncements of the former taoiseach, who told the Irish parliament, the Dáil, he believed Sinn Féin had negotiated in bad faith. Ahern told the Dáil on 2 February of a meeting with police chiefs on both sides of the Irish border. "They believe that a number of operations which took place during 2004, not just the Northern Bank robbery, were the work of the Provisional IRA and would have had the sanction of the army council and be known to the political leadership."

Sir Hugh Orde, the former chief constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland who met Ahern, accused the IRA of carrying out the robbery. In what was then the largest cash robbery ever carried out in the UK, a group of armed men held the families of two bank officials hostage while the officials were forced to hand over sacks filled with millions of pounds in cash to terrorists at the bank.

The IRA pension plan ?

[People Korps]

Who was /is XXXXXXXXXXXX ? who gave the info to the Yanks and who was the senior source in the Republican movement?


E) Denis Donaldson. McDowell believed that the out-ing of Denis Donaldson as an informant was a clear message from the British Government that it had another, more valuable, source of information within the republican leadership. He reiterated the Taoiseach's point, however, that Sinn Fein leaders appeared to have had no connection to Donaldson's murder. KENNY

[Lá an Lúbáin]

Dennis Donaldson was exposed as a senior british agent in December 2005. Or they could be refering to the much refered to senior agent that is supposedly yet to be uncovered? If you go by some people's speculation, it could have been Adams or McGuinness informing on themselves.

[C. Flower]

Who was /is XXXXXXXXXXXX ? who gave the info to the Yanks and who was the senior source in the Republican movement?

Are the cables in there somewhere? I couldn't see them and am a bit too tired to root around. I think it would be worth slapping them up on a post, if someone's able to do that.

There's too much unknowable there - are the cables genuine, did anyone say what they really believe...?

[PaddyJoe]

Links to the cables here:

US embassy cables: British government had 'valuable Republican source' - Dublin[/B]


[/QUOTE]
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/66093


US embassy cables: MI5 prepared to hand over files on Pat Finucane murder


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/33538

[People Korps]

here are two but theres is more eg

#
US embassy cables: MI5 prepared to hand over files on Pat Finucane murder
12 Dec 2010: Cable sent 01/06/2005
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 05 DUBLIN 000657
#
US embassy cables: Irish government had 'rock solid evidence' Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were members of IRA command
12 Dec 2010: Cable sent 04/02/2005
S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000143
#
US embassy cables: British government had 'valuable Republican source' - Dublin
12 Dec 2010: Cable sent 31/05/2006
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000623
#
US embassy cables: IRA used 'respectable businessmen' during Irish boom to buy properties in London and Spain
12 Dec 2010: Cable sent 27/07/2005
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000936
if you go to http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/us-embassy-cables-the-documents
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/us-embassy-cables-the-documents) now


Wednesday, 31 May 2006, 16:37
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000623
SIPDIS
SIPDIS
EO 12958 DECL: 01/31/2015
TAGS PREL, PGOV, PINR, ECON, EI
SUBJECT: PRIME MINISTER AHERN TAKES "HARD LINE" ON DEADLINE
FOR NORTHERN EXECUTIVE
REF: DUBLIN 562
DUBLIN 00000623 001.2 OF 003
Classified By: XXXXXXXXXXXX Reasons 1.4 (B) and (D).
Summary

1. This cable, sent on 31 May 2006 by a diplomat at the Irish embassy in Dublin, was an assessment of the Irish government's thinking on forming an executive in Northern Ireland. Key passage highlighted in yellow.
2. Read related article

1. (C) Summary: The Irish Government would not agree to extend the November 24 deadline for the Northern Assembly to form an Executive, due to the likely distractions of the mid-2007 Irish general elections, Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Bertie Ahern told Special Envoy for Northern Ireland Mitchell Reiss and the Ambassador on May 22. XXXXXXXXXXXX added that fleshing out details for the Northern parties on a post-November fallback plan ("Plan B") would distract their attention from the deadline. (Comment: Whether or not the Irish and British Governments stick to the November 24 deadline, Ahern,s strong remarks are a clear signal to the parties, which the GOI would like the USG to reinforce in discussions with Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP).) Ahern believed that Sinn Fein would not endorse joint policing except with the formation of the Executive, though he and Reiss concurred that there had been recent republican progress in interaction with the police. Ahern also expressed disappointment with the DUP,s refusal to engage with Sinn Fein, and Reiss noted that DUP leader Ian Paisley was likely to ignore the November deadline in public defiance of the Irish and British Governments. In a separate discussion, Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern told Reiss that a single, Southern-hosted investment conference on the North would be preferable to two separate conferences (a view that Northern Secretary Peter Hain accepted in a May 24 phone call with Reiss). In another meeting, Justice Minister Micheal McDowell briefed Reiss and the Ambassador on pending Northern-related legal casesXXXXXXXXXXXX. End summary.

The November 24 Deadline and Plan B

-----------------------------------

2. (C) Under no circumstances would the Irish Government agree to extend the November 24 deadline for the Northern Ireland Assembly to form an Executive, Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Bertie Ahern told Special Envoy for Northern Ireland Mitchell Reiss and the Ambassador on May 22. Ahern explained that, if the deadline were not met, "Plan B" (indefinite suspension of the Assembly and joint UK/Irish stewardship of the Northern political process) would take effect, as the campaign for the expected May 2007 Irish general elections would preclude his continued involvement in Northern negotiations. He added that he had been clear with the British Government on this point and that any effort to establish an Executive after November 24 would fall to the parties. Ahern said he would not be surprised, however, if the parties were to press for a delay beyond the deadline, notwithstanding the long lead-up to November. (Comment: Were the Irish and British Governments to hold the line on the November 24 deadline, they would be showing atypical resolve. We suspect that the decision whether or not to extend the deadline will be taken closer to the date.)

3. (C) While Plan B would help force the parties, feet to the fire, fleshing out Plan B in more detail now would distract the parties from the November 24 deadline, said XXXXXXXXXXXX, who also attended the meeting with Ahern and Reiss. In any case, Plan B has not been drafted, noted XXXXXXXXXXXX. He expressed hope that the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) report due in early October would show enough republican progress on criminality to catalyze the negotiations, keeping the focus off Plan B. He added that the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) risked a huge tactical error in believing that a deal might be achievable after November 24, since Sinn Fein might abandon the negotiation process completely after that deadline.

The DUP's Refusal to Engage

---------------------------

4. (C) Ahern expressed disappointment with the DUP's refusal to engage with Sinn Fein, particularly "childish" tactics at the Northern Assembly Stormont Buildings like ducking out of elevators carrying Sinn Fein members. He pointed out that there had been over 30 instances of quiet contact between the DUP and Sinn Fein during the December 2004 negotiations. Since the collapse of those talks and the subsequent Northern Bank robbery and McCartney murder, engagement had ceased. Ahern cited Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams' view that the IRA's July 2005 decision to decommission weapons should have merited renewed contact with the DUP at some level, not

DUBLIN 00000623 002.2 OF 003

necessarily with DUP leader Ian Paisley. DUP resistance to engagement, he added, was leading the republican community to question Adams' overall strategy for the peace process. Ahern admitted that he did not know what would make the DUP speak with Sinn Fein, and he hoped that the Northern Assembly's proposed Restoration Committee might be a vehicle for interaction. (At roughly the same time as Special Envoy Reiss' meeting with Ahern, Paisley announced that the DUP would not take part in the Committee as a mechanism for negotiations.)

Policing and Sinn Fein

----------------------

5. (C) The Northern policing issue would not be resolved until the formation of the Executive, said Ahern. He elaborated that Sinn Fein tacticians would not want to "hand over their last card" with a commitment to joint policing before November, since the DUP would then discount that card in the negotiations. Ahern doubted that the DUP even wanted the devolution of policing at this point. He added that there was therefore little sense in making Sinn Fein endorsement for joint policing a precondition in the Northern negotiations. He added, however, that the republican community was increasingly amenable to such an endorsement.

2006: Good Progress and Next Steps

----------------------------------

6. (C) On the whole, 2006 has been a very positive year, particularly in terms of progress in the republican community, Ahern observed. He noted that there was increasing engagement on the ground between the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) and republican areas of Belfast. XXXXXXXXXXXX pointed out that the Irish and British Governments were pleasantly surprised by the public's and parties' reactions to the April 6 statement that the Assembly would reconvene. The only negative republican occurrences during the year, said Ahern, had been the April 4 murder of Denis Donaldson (the former IRA official who was out-ed as a British informant), the robbery of a liquor truck by alleged IRA members, and the discovery of a 250 lb. fertilizer bomb in Lurgan. Ahern maintained that these incidents were the work of IRA breakaway groups who were not connected with Sinn Fein leadership. He added that Sinn Fein seemed surprised and shaken by the Donaldson murder and, ironically, had supported the April 6 statement calling for reestablishment of Stormont even more strongly as a result.

7. (C) In terms of next steps, XXXXXXXXXXXX observed that Prime Ministers Ahern and Blair planned to meet with all parties on June 26. In the expectation that there would be no progress by that point, the goal of the late June consultations would be to map out the agenda for the period remaining before late November. The Governments, added XXXXXXXXXXXX, would then "bed down for the summer." He explained that the Irish Government would continue to listen carefully to the parties' rhetoric in order to gauge their seriousness about making the Good Friday Agreement work.

Reiss: No Urgency among Parties

-------------------------------

8. (C) In his discussion with the Taoiseach (and in separate meetings, per paras below), Special Envoy Reiss reported from his May 19 discussions at Stormont that he sensed no urgency among the parties, particularly the DUP, to commence work on an Executive deal. He noted that DUP was likely to ignore the November 24 deadline in public defiance of the British and Irish Governments. The DUP also appeared confident that it could achieve in the first few months after November any deal that was achievable by November 24. Reiss elaborated that DUP leaders indicated no intention of engaging Sinn Fein, partly out of fear that negotiations with Gerry Adams would see the unionist community "lose its shirt."

9. (C) Sinn Fein leaders, by contrast, were relaxed in their discussions with Reiss, with Gerry Adams focused on USG permission for fund-raising activities in the United States in the fall. Reiss believed that Adams was prepared to endorse joint policing, not only to avoid blame if the November 24 deadline passed, but also to project a positive political image for Sinn Fein in the South's 2007 general elections. Adams also suggested that a Sinn Fein Executive Council decision, rather than a full party conference, might be sufficient to endorse policing. Reiss agreed with the Taoiseach that there had been progress in the republican community, as was evident from friendly interaction with the PSNI that would have been impossible six months ago.

DUBLIN 00000623 003.2 OF 003

FM Ahern Opposes Proposals for Two Investment Conferences

--------------------------------------------- ------------

10. (C) In a separate discussion that reviewed most of the issues raised in the Taoiseach's meeting, Foreign Minister Dermot Ahern said that there was no point in having two Northern Ireland investment conferences in the fall that would be sponsored by the North and South, respectively. He remarked that whereas plans for the proposed Northern-sponsored conference lacked focus and details, the South's conference would work and would proceed regardless. Reiss agreed that a single conference would be better, and he asked for the opportunity to speak first to the British Government about this preference. (Comment: On May 24, Reiss discussed the conference proposal with Northern Secretary Peter Hain, who agreed to put off the Northern-sponsored conference until 2007.)

DOJ Update on Legal Cases

-------------------------

11. (C) Special Envoy Reiss and the Ambassador also met with Minister of Justice and Equality Michael McDowell. Irish Department of Justice (DOJ)officialsXXXXXXXXXXXX who made the following points about Northern Ireland-related legal cases:

XXXXXXXXXXXX

B) Money Launderers. Before November, the Irish Government would bring charges against several individuals connected to the police seizure of several million pound sterling in February 2005, believed to be from the 2004 Northern Bank robbery.XXXXXXXXXXXX

E) Denis Donaldson. McDowell believed that the out-ing of Denis Donaldson as an informant was a clear message from the British Government that it had another, more valuable, source of information within the republican leadership. He reiterated the Taoiseach's point, however, that Sinn Fein leaders appeared to have had no connection to Donaldson's murder. KENNY
and re Pat Finnucane

[People Korps]

these are two long for one post
US embassy cables: British government had 'valuable Republican source' - Dublin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/66093)

US embassy cables: MI5 prepared to hand over files on Pat Finucane murder (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/33538)

[truth.ie]

It's claimed the 26 County authorities have concrete proof that Adams and Mc Guinness were Senior figures in the IRA. I imagine the Brits have also.
Anyone care to give an explanation as to why they weren't brought before the Special Criminal Court, placed in front of a non jury Court, and sent down on the word of a Senior Garda.
This has happened to scores of people in only the last few years.
On the other question, "who is Britains ear". I can just add that in the hours prior to the Canary Wharf bombing, No. 10 received a call from Gerry Adams, described as frantic, warning that something worrying was about to happen.
Also when the second ceasefire was called in 1996, Ted Kennedy claimed he received news of this from Adams one week before it became public. Apparently Kennedy heard before many IRA units were informed.

[People Korps]

US embassy cables: Irish government had 'rock solid evidence' Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness were members of IRA command (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/26500)

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* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 12 December 2010 23.00 GMT
* Article history

Friday, 04 February 2005, 16:06
S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000143
SIPDIS
EO 12958 DECL: 02/04/2015
TAGS PREL, PTER, PINR, EI, UK, NIPP
SUBJECT: PEACE PROCESS: GOI SHAKEN BY SECOND IRA STATEMENT
BUT FAVORS "INCLUSION"
Classified By: AMB JAMES C. KENNY
Summary

1. This cable, sent on 4 February 2005 by the Irish ambassador to Dublin James C Kenny, was a report of a meeting with a senior Irish official. This raised concerns about Sinn Fein's commitment to the peace process – and its control over the IRA – after the £26.5m Northern Bank robbery in Belfast. Key passage highlighted in yellow.
2. Read related article

1. (S) SUMMARY: Amb Kenny met February 4 with XXXXXXXXXXXX. The ambassador indicated that the USG is inclined not to invite Northern Ireland political parties to the March 17 White House event. XXXXXXXXXXXX said the GOI believes engagement with Sinn Fein is better than exclusion, and asked if the USG would be willing to defer a decision in case the environment improves. XXXXXXXXXXXX said the GOI strategy regarding the peace process was to "sit tight" and let Sinn Fein find its way back in, following strong messages from the GOI and UK to Sinn Fein leaders. However, XXXXXXXXXXXX said the second IRA statement made the situation worse. He said the GOI considered the February 3 IRA statement "ominous" and was "unnerved" by it. In response to the ambassador's request for more information on the bank robbery, XXXXXXXXXXXX said the GOI information came mostly from the UK and from PSNI-Garda contacts, a point reinforced later on February 4 in a telephone conversation from XXXXXXXXXXXX. XXXXXXXXXXXX added that the GOI has a "very strong view" that Sinn Fein should not be excluded from the United States, which he wishes to discuss in person with the Ambassador at their XXXXXXXXXXXX meeting. (Note: XXXXXXXXXXXX did not specify on the phone whether he was expressing a general view on visas for Sinn Fein or a specific view on March 17 events.) Separately this week, POL/ECON chief met with political figures active in the peace process, all of whom echoed some of XXXXXXXXXXXX concerns: uncertainty over whether Sinn Fein is serious about peace, whether it can bring the IRA along or would be willing to break from the IRA, and uncertainty over whether Sinn Fein is in full control of the IRA. Interlocutors also commented on the domestic political implications of the current impasse. DCM and POL/ECON Chief also attended the meeting with XXXXXXXXXXXX. End Summary.

March 17

--------

2. (S) On XXXXXXXXXXXX, Ambassador Kenny briefed XXXXXXXXXXXXon current USG thinking about the March 17 events, emphasizing that the most important aspect of the occasion is the President's meeting with the Taoiseach (PM Ahern). He told XXXXXXXXXXXX that the USG at this point is inclined not to invite any of the Northern Ireland parties to the White House but instead to honor civic leaders. When asked for GOI views, XXXXXXXXXXXX said that it was of course a USG decision to make but it was a decision that would have ramifications in Ireland. He said that the situation is "tense" and the GOI does not want it to worsen. The GOI feels that engagement with Sinn Fein is better than exclusion. Noting that the situation is fluid, he said that the Taoiseach would prefer that no decision be made, yet, on White House participation. XXXXXXXXXXXX seemed especially concerned that no decision be announced next week, given that the week will already be highly charged because of the release of the International Independent Monitoring Commission's report on the Northern Bank robbery. The discussion then turned to Sinn Fein's visa requests for events in the U.S. around St. Patrick's Day, apart from the White House. XXXXXXXXXXXX reiterated the GOI's strong view that giving Sinn Fein visas to the U.S. helps the peace process.

IRA Statements of February 2 and 3

----------------------------------

3. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX said that the long IRA statement of February 2 had not worried the GOI because it seemed natural for the IRA to take its decommissioning offer off the table given the abeyance in the peace process. However, he said the February 3 statement had caught them by surprise. XXXXXXXXXXXX said the GOI believed the two statements were written by different drafters. The February 3 statement, he said, looked like the style of the Chief of Staff of the IRA. He called the statement "ominous" and said it had left GOI officials "unnerved and anxious." He then referred to Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness' claim of also having no prior knowledge of the statement. He said that if McGuinness genuinely did not know in advance that the IRA would issue a second statement February 3, that could signal that Sinn Fein is genuinely breaking from the IRA. While that might indicate Sinn Fein's seriousness about pursuing peace, it would raise other issues. Was Sinn Fein losing control over the IRA? If Sinn Fein no longer can or will serve as a conduit to the IRA, who will? XXXXXXXXXXXX then noted that McGuinness did not repudiate the IRA statement, which he implied would tend to indicate no change in Sinn Fein's relationship with the IRA.

4. (C) Comment: XXXXXXXXXXXX uncertainty about Sinn Fein's intentions and Sinn Fein's control over the IRA were echoed in comments across the political spectrum this week, including in conversations with Senator Martin Mansergh, former government advisor on Northern Ireland; staff from the Glencree Center for reconciliation; and a Fianna Fail political advisor. That XXXXXXXXXXXX and others so long and deeply engaged in the peace process would be so uncertain of Sinn Fein's intentions is not a good omen for the peace process. It indicates the degree to which the bank robbery destroyed the government's trust in Sinn Fein. Meanwhile, uncertainty about Sinn Fein's interest in peace or control over the IRA, combined with the IRA's February 3 statement, clearly has officials worried. The government steadfastly holds onto engagement with Sinn Fein because it sees no other alternative. End Comment

Peace Process

-------------

5. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX said that the GOI's approach to the peace process was to "sit tight" and let Sinn Fein find its way back. Equally, the GOI will stay engaged with Sinn Fein, including a February 4 meeting between FM Dermott Ahern and Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator. XXXXXXXXXXXX said that until the bank robbery, there was every expectation that a comprehensive agreement would be reached. He said the two outstanding issues, decommissioning and criminality, had been considered resolvable until the bank robbery -- which he termed a "tragedy that stopped everything." Senator Martin Mansergh, who remains influential in the peace process and close to the Taoiseach, was more expansive. He said that Sinn Fein must get the message to draw a line under paramilitarism and criminality. Echoing what we have also heard from DFA, Mansergh said that since the robbery, there is no longer any willingness to accept Sinn Fein's argument that it needs time to bring the IRA along. Like other contacts, Mansergh said that ten years is long enough and this time, all around talks can only begin on the basis of the IRA winding up. Neither Mansergh nor any government official has yet defined what they would need from Sinn Fein. They say that they will not again work on a comprehensive package only to have it fall apart at the end because of the IRA yet also say they would not expect decommissioning and a cessation of criminality to be a pre-requisite to all party talks.

GOI Information on the Northern Bank Robbery

--------------------------------------------

6. (S) XXXXXXXXXXXX said that the GOI's judgment on the robbery was based almost exclusively on UK intelligence. He also said that intelligence is handled very differently in the British and Irish governments. In the Irish government, many officials, including himself, do not receive any intelligence reports. The tradition instead is to take the word of the Garda. Later on February 4, at XXXXXXXXXXXX' request, XXXXXXXXXXXX called the ambassador. XXXXXXXXXXXX said that he would be more precise with the Ambassador during their scheduled February 8 meeting, but confirmed that UK and PSNI information, combined with Ireland's long experience with the IRA, was the basis for the GOI assessment that IRA was behind the robbery. He said the GOI has no smoking gun or hard evidence but that the GOI considered it 99% certain that IRA conducted the robbery. Among several reasons, he said that no group other than IRA could have entered the neighborhood in which the bank manager lived. He described it as a "no go" area for the PSNI and splinter groups. He also said no other group would have the discipline, this many weeks after the robbery, not to try to use a bank note, or provide information on the van or any other aspect of the robbery. He said that the GOI does have "rock solid evidence" that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are members of the IRA military command and for that reason, the Taoiseach is certain they would have known in advance of the robbery.

Domestic Implications

---------------------

7. (C) The GOI's all-out verbal offensive against Sinn Fein has tongues wagging about domestic politics. Martin Mansergh volunteered that as much as the Taoiseach is thinking about the 2007 elections, he values the peace process more and would sacrifice political gain if he thought peace would be advanced. Mansergh told POL/ECON chief that the bank robbery has damaged Sinn Fein in the Republic. While not yet reflected in poll numbers, Mansergh and other political operatives, believe (or hope) that some Sinn Fein voters will go elsewhere now that it is clear that Sinn Fein can not become part of any government in the Republic as long as IRA activity continues. On radio, Mansergh made the point more colorfully: "The truth is that Sinn Fein, regardless of extra seats they might or mightn't win, wouldn't come within an asses' roar of power north or south of the Border until the IRA is off the pitch." 8. (C) Another idea sporadically under consideration is that Fianna Fail could start competing in elections in Northern Ireland. The argument is that Fianna Fail's best way of confronting Sinn Fein in the Republic is to become an all-island party. Some think doing so could also give nationalists in the north an alternative to Sinn Fein, given the SDLP's waning fortunes. Mansergh did not see this as a short term prospect, in part because the SDLP has not yet indicated an interest in merging with Fianna Fail. Derek Mooney, Fianna Fail's political advisor to the Defense Minister, says the opposite. He said the bank robbery is rapidly changing the prospective and it is the right time for Fianna Fail to move north. He noted that most of SDLP's former voters are not voting at all, and only a small percentage shifted to Sinn Fein. This, he said, leaves space for a nationalist party with a vision for the future, a space Mooney thinks SDLP will never re-gain because it is seen only as a peace process party. Mooney said Fianna Fail took a significant step in November 2004 when it changed its rules, allowing full membership for people not resident in the Republic. The rules also allow a person to be a member of both Fianna Fail and SDLP. Mooney provides campaign advice to SDLP. KENNY

[People Korps]

US embassy cables: IRA used 'respectable businessmen' during Irish boom to buy properties in London and Spain (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/37460)



Wednesday, 27 July 2005, 16:10
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 DUBLIN 000936
SIPDIS
LONDON FOR POL AND LEGATT
EO 12958 DECL: 01/31/2015
TAGS PREL, EFIN, SOCI, KCRM, EI, NIPP
SUBJECT: UPDATE ON IRA MONEY-LAUNDERING INVESTIGATION
REF: A. STATE 104288
B. DUBLIN 210 C. SOFIA 1108
Classified By: Deputy Chief of Mission Jonathan S. Benton; Reasons 1.4 (B) and (D).
Summary

1. This cable, sent on 27 July 2005 by Jonathan S Benton, deputy chief of mission at the US embassy in Dublin, was a report on the IRA's money laundering operations. It reported that money seized in Dublin and Cork was believed to have come from the £26.5m robbery by the IRA of the headquarters of the Northern Bank in Belfast in December 2004. Key passage highlighted in yellow.
2. Read related article

1. (C) Summary: Irish criminal justice officials are convinced that pound sterling notes seized in Dublin and Cork in mid-February in an apparent IRA-tied money-laundering scheme was money stolen from Belfast's Northern Bank. Police are attempting to establish forensic links between the seizures and robbery in order to bring charges by late 2005, with a court case to follow a year later. Irish investigators continue to pursue a possible Bulgarian link to the money-laundering scheme, but are reluctant to provide details on exchanges with Bulgarian counterparts. The Bulgarian Ambassador in Dublin denies any Bulgarian involvement and wishes that Ireland would close off this line of inquiry publicly. Irish officials, more generally, remain concerned that IRA funds acquired through sophisticated investments are seeping into resources available for Sinn Fein's political activities in the Republic of Ireland. Post expects that Irish officials will remain reticent on details of the money-laundering investigation until charges are filed. End summary.

Linking the Bank Robbery and Money Seizures

-------------------------------------------

2. (C) The roughly STG 3 million seized in Dublin and Cork the week of February 14 (ref B) is "beyond doubt" a portion of the STG 26.5 million stolen from Belfast's Northern Bank on December 20, 2004, according to XXXXXXXXXXXX and the Department of Justice, Equality, and Law Reform (DOJ)XXXXXXXXXXXX. XXXXXXXXXXXX related to Emboff the GOI's belief that up to 16 individuals questioned by Garda (police) in connection with the seizures were attempting to launder the stolen proceeds on behalf of the Provisional IRA (PIRA). This belief was based on information provided by Garda intelligence assets and by "walk-ins" who, in some instances, voluntarily turned over cash that they had been asked to hide (STG 300,000 in one case). While intelligence pointed clearly to a money-laundering operation, the challenge was to build forensic ties between the money seized and the stolen Northern Bank notes in order to support a court conviction. XXXXXXXXXXXX said that Garda, led by the Criminal Assets Bureau, were still attempting to establish forensic links through the tracking system used by the Northern Bank for bank note bundles in its possession at the time of December robbery.

3. (C) If such ties could be established before autumn, the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), James Hamilton, would be in a position to bring money-laundering charges by late 2005 against a number of those questioned, said XXXXXXXXXXXX. (To date, no one has been charged, except a XXXXXXXXXXXX, who was charged with membership in the IRA, an illegal organization. XXXXXXXXXXXX Once charges are brought, it would likely take a year to begin the court case. XXXXXXXXXXXX noted that Hamilton could possibly opt for a special non-jury criminal court consisting of three judges, an option that was sometimes used for cases involving unlawful organizations like the IRA. When Emboff asked who would likely face charges, XXXXXXXXXXXX replied that, of those brought in for Garda questioning, no one had been ruled out as beyond suspicion XXXXXXXXXXXX He added that the operative legislation in the case would likely be the Proceeds of Crime Act of 1997, rather than the Criminal Justice Act of 2005, since the latter focused primarily on terrorism.

4. (C) In separate discussions with the Ambassador, DCM, and Emboffs, XXXXXXXXXXXX said that investigations into the money-laundering case could still take several months, as police used DNA and other scientific techniques to pursue a connection to the Northern Bank raid. He commented that the money-laundering operation had been poorly conducted, due most likely to the unexpected size of the bank haul. Investigators were focused primarily on Ted Cunningham and XXXXXXXXXXXX

-----------------------

XXXXXXXXXXXX

6. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXX

-----------------------------------

7. (C)XXXXXXXXXXXX

---------------------------------

8. (C) More generally, the DOJ and Garda continue to be concerned that money illegally acquired by the IRA was "seeping" into resources available for Sinn Finn's political activities in the Republic of Ireland, said the DOJXXXXXXXXXXXX. The difficulty lay in documenting the mixing of such funds. XXXXXXXXXXXX noted that the Standards in Public Office Commission (SIPO) was similarly concerned that political donations obtained by Sinn Fein in the United States and elsewhere overseas were being spent in the South. (Under a 2002 SIPO ruling, Sinn Fein can accept donations from non-Irish citizens in foreign countries, but only for activities outside the Republic of Ireland, i.e., in Northern Ireland.) He noted that the DOJ would be interested to see whether and how the IRA might address criminality in its expected response to Sinn Fein President Gerry Adams' call for an end to republican paramilitarism. XXXXXXXXXXXX added that the awaited IRA statement would have no bearing on the money-laundering case or other investigations into possible IRA crimes committed since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

9. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX commented that IRA money was constantly moving, flowing from diversified sources into wide-ranging investments. While the IRA had been proficient in smuggling, robbery, and racketeering since the 1970s, the Celtic Tiger economic boom of the 1990s had prompted the IRA to diversify into more sophisticated business enterprises. IRA investments now included real estate ventures in Dublin, London, and Spanish resort areas, handled by apparently respectable businessmen. XXXXXXXXXXXX also expressed concern about the commingling of ill-gotten IRA funds with Sinn Fein's political coffers in the Republic of Ireland. The irony, XXXXXXXXXXXX explained, was that Sinn Fein was already raising substantial sums for its political activities in the South through legal avenues. He pointed out, for example, that Sinn Fein conducted at least 60 fund-raisers in the South per week for its electoral war chest.

Comment: GOI Reticence

----------------------

10. (C) XXXXXXXXXXXX made clear to Emboffs that the ongoing investigation into the money-laundering case constrained their ability to provide more information, as the lack of detail in their observations bears out. We expect that GOI officials will remain reticent until charges are actually filed, a step that may also be delayed by continuing investigations into the Northern Bank robbery itself. Garda and DOJ representatives are also likely to continue to be quiet in public and in discussions with us regarding funding of Sinn Fein,s activities in the Republic of Ireland. As a political force in the South, Sinn Fein has limited reach, but is seen as the most well-organized and best-funded party. Competing parties, including the governing Fianna Fail party, are anxious to ensure that Sinn Fein members/supporters abide by Irish law and are subject to public scrutiny when they do not. Both the Garda (traditionally tough on the republican movement writ large, due to its terrorist connections) and political levels of the government will be careful to avoid the public perception that any legal pursuit of Sinn Fein/IRA-tied personalities in the South is politically connected. KENNY

[C. Flower]

It looks, if this is authentic, as if SF may have lost a packet in the property crash.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/dec/12/wikileaks-ira-irish-boom-business

[C. Flower]

Good night :)

[People Korps]

:)
are we now a mirror site :)

no reason to doubt them , if you examine Ahern's disclosures there are typically contained as he was. McDowell does a fair bit of disclosure too.
Interesting to see how these briefings work .

[People Korps]

It's claimed the 26 County authorities have concrete proof that Adams and Mc Guinness were Senior figures in the IRA. I imagine the Brits have also.
Anyone care to give an explanation as to why they weren't brought before the Special Criminal Court, placed in front of a non jury Court, and sent down on the word of a Senior Garda.
This has happened to scores of people in only the last few years.
On the other question, "who is Britains ear". I can just add that in the hours prior to the Canary Wharf bombing, No. 10 received a call from Gerry Adams, described as frantic, warning that something worrying was about to happen.
Also when the second ceasefire was called in 1996, Ted Kennedy claimed he received news of this from Adams one week before it became public. Apparently Kennedy heard before many IRA units were informed.
Not long after Adams was told that no action was to be taken by the DPP, regarding his fingerprints found on a getaway car used to kill two peelers in the 70s.
That might be the basis of a very interesting legal challenge in relation to past, current and future use of the law prohibiting membership of an illegal organisation.

The law must be applied impartially and without special treatment for one class / category of person in a favorable way over another.
and and therefore the influence of politicians and politics is verboten....under our law. Can citizen cold arrest Adams or McGuinness in light of this info? Ie Citizens arrest for membership of an illegal organisation? :)

Good point I look forward to the Supreme Court challenges.

[People Korps]

Thread title should be broadened to include s re IRA , SF and the British and Irish Governments

[truth.ie]

"Garda and Department of Justice are likely to continue to be quiet in public regarding funding of Sinn Feins activities."
Well, if that doesn't show you how cosy the Sinn Fein Leadership was with the Ahern Government nothing will.
Politics stinks!

[Sam Lord]

Who was /is XXXXXXXXXXXX ? who gave the info to the Yanks and who was the senior source in the Republican movement?

J118

"Hello darkness my old friend ... "

:)

[Lá an Lúbáin]

J118

"Hello darkness my old friend ... "

:)

Serious question, Sam. Do you believe garfunkel informed on himself?

[Sam Lord]

Serious question, Sam. Do you believe garfunkel informed on himself?

I think he is/was the major tout. Yes.

[Lá an Lúbáin]

I think he is/was the major tout. Yes.

Well, after the Claudy reports and the goings ons that have yet to be exposed in relation to that, I'm prepared to be convinced about all sorts of formerly too bizarre to be believable theories. I've read plenty of theories over the years as to how he was an informer, J118 included. What is the most damning piece of evidence , according to yourself, that points to your belief that Art was/is a tout?

[People Korps]

Well, after the Claudy reports and the goings ons that have yet to be exposed in relation to that, I'm prepared to be convinced about all sorts of formerly too bizarre to be believable theories. I've read plenty of theories over the years as to how he was an informer, J118 included. What is the most damning piece of evidence , according to yourself, that points to your belief that Art was/is a tout?

always like a good denial IRA searches for proof that agent J118 existed (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/jun/04/uk.northernireland)

but there is always the bearded one!!!!

[Lá an Lúbáin]

always like a good denial IRA searches for proof that agent J118 existed (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/jun/04/uk.northernireland)

but there is always the bearded one!!!!

Where's the denial, Buffy? Did you read my last post to Sam?

Toddle on now and let the adults have a genuine discussion.

[People Korps]

Where's the denial, Buffy? Did you read my last post to Sam?

Toddle on now and let the adults have a genuine discussion.

In the article I linked to...McG denial? {personal to LaL comment something that rhymes with ard}

try and read sonny jim before you come over all poe faced and **** please

[People Korps]

Where's the denial, Buffy? Did you read my last post to Sam?

Toddle on now and let the adults have a genuine discussion.


The Observer has learnt.

Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator and former IRA commanding officer, has publicly denied he is the agent.


even the blind could see this if they could read!!!

[Sam Lord]

Well, after the Claudy reports and the goings ons that have yet to be exposed in relation to that, I'm prepared to be convinced about all sorts of formerly too bizarre to be believable theories. I've read plenty of theories over the years as to how he was an informer, J118 included. What is the most damning piece of evidence , according to yourself, that points to your belief that Art was/is a tout?

There is no concrete evidence that I know of or he would not still be where he is. Just a lot of smoke.

For my part I would tend to put some thrust in Ingram. He is an odd fish but he was a long time in British intelligence/FRU etc. in the North and would know a thing or two about what went on He was right about Scap although he was scoffed at for a long time. The shinners for their part defended Scap until he was safely ensconsed in Italy. With regard to Ingram the shinners claim it is all black ops but why would the Brits be running black ops against Art? He suits them grand where he is.

I also found the Hegarty affair very disturbing, You probably know the story better than I do.

I never liked Catholic Nationalists in any case....

[Sam Lord]

Where's the denial, Buffy? Did you read my last post to Sam?

Toddle on now and let the adults have a genuine discussion.

Put him on ignore if you are able to ....

[People Korps]

Put him on ignore if you are able to ....

You too?
The Observer has learnt.

Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein's chief negotiator and former IRA commanding officer, has publicly denied he is the agent.
La Looon was saying he could not find denial >>>>>>duh

you are all a bit soft in the noggin

[Lá an Lúbáin]

In the article I linked to...McG denial? {personal to LaL comment something that rhymes with ard}

try and read sonny jim before you come over all poe faced and **** please

That's a link to a Henry Mc Donald article quoting Martin Mc Guinness denying an allegation by Martin Ingram that I've read countless times before. As I said in a previous post, the J118 included. I'd have bother believing anything that all three of them would say.

And you're not too strong on the truth either.

[Lá an Lúbáin]

There is no concrete evidence that I know of or he would not still be where he is. Just a lot of smoke.

For my part I would tend to put some thrust in Ingram. He is an odd fish but he was a long time in British intelligence/FRU etc. in the North and would know a thing or two about what went on He was right about Scap although he was scoffed at for a long time. The shinners for their part defended Scap until he was safely ensconsed in Italy. With regard to Ingram the shinners claim it is all black ops but why would the Brits be running black ops against Art? He suits them grand where he is.

I also found the Hegarty affair very disturbing, You probably know the story better than I do.

I never liked Catholic Nationalists in any case....

Cheers, Sam.

Yip , the Hegarty story is very troublesome on the face of it but it's difficult to discern when facts are intelligence and intelligence are facts if that's not boringly stating the obvious. Having poured over books, articles and this internet thing over the years, and even more so after the Claudy report, up is down and black is white.

[People Korps]

That's a link to a Henry Mc Donald article quoting Martin Mc Guinness denying an allegation by Martin Ingram that I've read countless times before. As I said in a previous post, the J118 included. I'd have bother believing anything that all three of them would say.

And you're not too strong on the truth either.

Stronger than most

[Sam Lord]

Cheers, Sam.

Yip , the Hegarty story is very troublesome on the face of it but it's difficult to discern when facts are intelligence and intelligence are facts if that's not boringly stating the obvious. Having poured over books, articles and this internet thing over the years, and even more so after the Claudy report, up is down and black is white.

I've been told by people who were long standing volunteers that absolutely nothing would surprise them at this stage. So where does that leave the ordinary punter? It will all out one day, however, I am sure ... and that will be a fascinating read.

I'm very much out of touch these days and the Claudy Report has passed me by entirely. I will google it.

[People Korps]

I've been told by people who were long standing volunteers that absolutely nothing would surprise them at this stage. So where does that leave the ordinary punter? It will all out one day, however, I am sure ... and that will be a fascinating read.

I'm very much out of touch these days and the Claudy Report has passed me by entirely. I will google it.


Me too

[Lá an Lúbáin]

I've been told by people who were long standing volunteers that absolutely nothing would surprise them at this stage. So where does that leave the ordinary punter? It will all out one day, however, I am sure ... and that will be a fascinating read.

I'm very much out of touch these days and the Claudy Report has passed me by entirely. I will google it.

Well, I have to say, out of a sense of intrigue, that I'm looking forward to what the Dept of Justice will be briefing over the coming weeks, Dermo leaving and all that. I'd say they'll be throwing a leaking party or two over the coming weeks. They'll have to up the ante as opposed to this leak that just seems to confirm what the Mullah and Bertie were saying at the time. Maybe you'll get confirmation and denial of J118 again and another new 'gem'. I wonder what their big gun will be in the week of the election?

[People Korps]

Well, I have to say, out of a sense of intrigue, that I'm looking forward to what the Dept of Justice will be briefing over the coming weeks, Dermo leaving and all that. I'd say they'll be throwing a leaking party or two over the coming weeks. They'll have to up the ante as opposed to this leak that just seems to confirm what the Mullah and Bertie were saying at the time. Maybe you'll get confirmation and denial of J118 again and another new 'gem'. I wonder what their big gun will be in the week of the election?

A very good point and now the big G has moved south he is threatening seats personally.

[Sam Lord]

..... and even more so after the Claudy report, up is down and black is white.

Ah yes ... the priest. There was a rotten thread on this here at one stage.

I was told a story at one stage a long time ago about Claudy that would rule out black ops. The mixed village was apparently not the target although stuff was abandoned there in an operation that went entirely haywire. Attempts to give warnings then failed. I cannot vouch for the truth of the story even if the person who relayed it was in a position to know some things. People would often spin stuff for their own purposes.

I doubt that the priest was a volunteer never mind the director of operations or whatever they cranked him up to be. I would say that he, like many people at the time, was willing if asked to help out ... move something from A to B and the like. Probably nothing more.

[TotalMayhem]

Anyone seen these cables on one of the official Wikileaks mirrors?

The only two cables tagged 'EI' i can find are related to the Vatican and Shannon Airport, none tagged 'NIPP'.

[musashi]

Our former dear departed leader Bertie Ahern, knew about it.
Why am I not surprised.

[Cáthasaigh]

I think he is/was the major tout. Yes.

There is enough reason to look at both Adams and McGuinness. In McGuiness' case there is his history including the Hegarty affair and also the fact that his post GFA career points ever more strongly in that direction. In Adams' case there is the issue of sex crime within the most surveilled family in the 6C, if his father and brother were abusers (whether or not they were the only ones we don't know) then you can be sure the Brits knew about it; decades ago. Yet this never came out and has been treated with kid gloves in the state media since it did; only after an alleged victim spoke out. The Brits had one hell of a potential hold over Adams but inexplicalby chose not to use it.

Suspicion falls heavily upon both individuals imo.

[Cáthasaigh]

Sinn Fein's Gerry Adams denies Wikileaks IRA claims (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-feins-gerry-adams-denies-wikileaks-ira-claims-15028671.html#ixzz17zpcbqrG)

Gerry Adams has denied claims on WikiLeaks that he was an IRA leader and had advance knowledge of the Northern Bank raid.


http://www.freewebs.com/qubmun/chucklebrothers.jpg

[C. Flower]

What about the Pat Finucane cable?

[thecat]

There is enough reason to look at both Adams and McGuinness. In McGuiness' case there is his history including the Hegarty affair and also the fact that his post GFA career points ever more strongly in that direction. In Adams' case there is the issue of sex crime within the most surveilled family in the 6C, if his father and brother were abusers (whether or not they were the only ones we don't know) then you can be sure the Brits knew about it; decades ago. Yet this never came out and has been treated with kid gloves in the state media since it did; only after an alleged victim spoke out. The Brits had one hell of a potential hold over Adams but inexplicalby chose not to use it.

Suspicion falls heavily upon both individuals imo.

Yes, you seem to have your finger firmly on the pulse of the Irish people again, as usual.

[Cáthasaigh]

Yes, you seem to have your finger firmly on the pulse of the Irish people again, as usual.

So you think there is enough evidence to be suspicious of both Adams and McGuinness then?

[Kev Bar]

It's claimed the 26 County authorities have concrete proof that Adams and Mc Guinness were Senior figures in the IRA. I imagine the Brits have also.
Anyone care to give an explanation as to why they weren't brought before the Special Criminal Court, placed in front of a non jury Court, and sent down on the word of a Senior Garda.
This has happened to scores of people in only the last few years.


Yeah. The same reason that Tony Blair said the following to Seamus Mallon: "You know what your problem is...you don't have any guns."

Cactus

Your pension comment is on the money.

[Cáthasaigh]

Cactus

Your pension comment is on the money.

The collapse of Lehman Bros stung very, very badly though.

[TotalMayhem]

Anyone seen these cables on one of the official Wikileaks mirrors?

The only two cables tagged 'EI' i can find are related to the Vatican and Shannon Airport, none tagged 'NIPP'.

The newsies talking about "allegations published on the wikileaks website".

I cannot find anything of the sort on various wikileaks mirrors. Is this stuff real (ditto the cable regarding SecTres Snow searching for the 'sercret of the Celtic Tiger') or is it just some sh!tstirring which the Guardian is quite renowned for?

[thecat]

So you think there is enough evidence to be suspicious of both Adams and McGuinness then?

If you say so.

[Digger Out]

McGuinness only admitted to being in the IRA when he was exposed by Saville enquiry. Adams never admitted it, but gets away with it. But if he was never in IRA how did he have so much influence over them from outside ? Irish solution to Irish problem ?

[truth.ie]

Will there be more leaks or is that it??
Any mention of Omagh for example, or the Mickey Mc Kevitt trial that involved a FBI supergrass.

[Dr. FIVE]

This and the Vatican one made six one.
Can anyone remember if the the first one about Shannon was broadcast ?

[Cáthasaigh]

This and the Vatican one made six one.
Can anyone remember if the the first one about Shannon was broadcast ?

Dunno but Gerry had helpful hands in the Vatican editting uncomfortable references to ignored fingerprints in IRA operational vehicles from Wikipedia. And who would say there is no value in prayer?

[Cáthasaigh]

Will there be more leaks or is that it??
Any mention of Omagh for example, or the Mickey Mc Kevitt trial that involved a FBI supergrass.

Assange is a 'guest of the Brits' pending extradition proceedings. I don't think we're going to be hearing anything whatsoever to do with Omagh.

[Sam Lord]

Posts should be about the topic, please. Not other posters.

[PaddyJoe]

Back on topic please.

[People Korps]

Yes, you seem to have your finger firmly on the pulse of the Irish people again, as usual.

That would be a matter of debate, a self confessed assassin for the US military in Iraq who appears to favour non GFA republicans and is making himself an online home and presence here on a site that gets 500,000 hits a month last time I checked.
Oh yeah I would join his ting in a second LOL

re the post above you insult too calling people insane though you spelled in inane I think
pot kettle black gerry lover...LOL again

C has a point Adams and McG were/are touts .

[C. Flower]

THESE PERSONAL POSTS AND COMPLAINTS ABOUT PERSONAL POSTS ARE DISRUPTING DISCUSSION OF THE TOPIC. I WILL BE CULLING ANY OFF TOPIC POSTS FROM THIS THREAD WITHOUT FURTHER WARNING. ANY QUERIES OR COMPLAINTS MUST BE DEALT WITH BY MEANS OF PMS TO MODERATORS OR REPORTED POSTS, NOT BY ON-THREAD MOANS.

Thank you. :)

C. Flower
Admin

[C. Flower]

I'm locking this thread for the night and will be weeding the personal tit for tat out in the morning.

[C. Flower]

Ah yes ... the priest. There was a rotten thread on this here at one stage.

I was told a story at one stage a long time ago about Claudy that would rule out black ops. The mixed village was apparently not the target although stuff was abandoned there in an operation that went entirely haywire. Attempts to give warnings then failed. I cannot vouch for the truth of the story even if the person who relayed it was in a position to know some things. People would often spin stuff for their own purposes.

I doubt that the priest was a volunteer never mind the director of operations or whatever they cranked him up to be. I would say that he, like many people at the time, was willing if asked to help out ... move something from A to B and the like. Probably nothing more.

Why would someone abandon bombs in the middle of a village, when there was open country all around ? Perhaps I'm missing a good reason.... ?

[C. Flower]

Just a technical question here - if these are supposed to be "leaked" cables, why are they full of redactions ?


3. (C) While Plan B would help force the parties, feet to the fire, fleshing out Plan B in more detail now would distract the parties from the November 24 deadline, said XXXXXXXXXXXX, who also attended the meeting with Ahern and Reiss. In any case, Plan B has not been drafted, noted XXXXXXXXXXXX. He expressed hope that the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) report due in early October would show enough republican progress on criminality to catalyze the negotiations, keeping the focus off Plan B. He added that the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) risked a huge tactical error in believing that a deal might be achievable after November 24, since Sinn Fein might abandon the negotiation process completely after that deadline.

Totay Mayhem says these cables aren't on any of the ghost sites. Any update on what their source is?

[C. Flower]

"Garda and Department of Justice are likely to continue to be quiet in public regarding funding of Sinn Feins activities."
Well, if that doesn't show you how cosy the Sinn Fein Leadership was with the Ahern Government nothing will.
Politics stinks!


Isn't this the wording ?


Garda and DOJ representatives are also likely to continue to be quiet in public and in discussions with us regarding funding of Sinn Fein,s activities in the Republic of Ireland.Who was the funder - the R o I or the US ??

[C. Flower]

Thread reopened. If anyone has complaints about any personal/ abusive posting or moderation of this thread, please DO NOT raise it on this thread or it will be deleted. Use the report post button, pm a Moderator, or start a separate Site Feedback thread.

[Kev Bar]

The collapse of Lehman Bros stung very, very badly though.

Bertie would have warned them to diversify...but guess what?...he didn't see it coming.

A musing on the whole affair...when sociopaths are found out to be sociopaths, the solution rarely lies in further sociopathology.

[Cáthasaigh]

Today's Irish News outlines how Adams' Northern Bank denials ring rather hollow when one considers that those convicted of laundering proceeds from the robbery were all either members or supporters of PSF. Dear Leader's denials rang even more hollow when he began his statement with the customary denial of IRA membership....start as you mean to continue.

[People Korps]

Just a technical question here - if these are supposed to be "leaked" cables, why are they full of redactions ?



Totay Mayhem says these cables aren't on any of the ghost sites. Any update on what their source is?
These release are coming via the new papers and they are doing the redacting not wikileaks
Assange has said he willl release encryption code for all un redacted if eg the US try to extradite him.
Source is the Guardian site linked to the various texts I posted

[C. Flower]

These release are coming via the new papers and they are doing the redacting not wikileaks
Assange has said he willl release encryption code for all un redacted if eg the US try to extradite him.
Source is the Guardian site linked to the various texts I posted

So Assange has not released the Wikileaks publicly?

What could the justifiication for those redactions be ?

[People Korps]

So Assange has not released the Wikileaks publicly?

no just to Le Monde, The Guardian and the NY Times


What could the justifiication for those redactions be ?
Hard to know sources not in the government? but you should emal or tweet the Guardian wikileaks crew

You can follow all the previous disclosures and reaction on our other live blogs about the cables. And for full coverage go to our US embassy cables page or follow our US embassy cable Twitter feed @GdnCables.

And please keep sending us your You Ask:We Search suggestions.

Simply tweet @GdnCables with the information you're interested in. We're working with a search engine, remember, so it would help greatly if you could give us:
• Search terms
• Rough dates (the main archive runs from 2005 to Feb 2010)
• The likely embassy involved ( eg 'Moscow', or 'Kampala')

So you might say @gdncables Oil Spills June 2003 Angola. Our resources aren't infinite - but we'll do our best, so please be a little patient!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/14/wikileaks-julian-assange-court-appeal-live-updates (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/14/wikileaks-julian-assange-court-appeal-live-updates)

Assange is Time man of the year 2010

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/12/14/1292320203047/assange.jpg

[C. Flower]

This post seems to have been accidentally misposted somewhere else.


This sure is going to affect Sinn Féin's surge in the polls and possibly hit their chances of having a good election. That itself makes you wonder was this wikileak deliberate?

[C. Flower]

The Judge hearing Assange's case in London today is allowing tweeting - unprecedented.
The circus rolls on.

[Sam Lord]

This sure is going to affect Sinn Féin's surge in the polls and possibly hit their chances of having a good election. That itself makes you wonder was this wikileak deliberate?



When I got out of bed this morning I stepped on the dog causing it to yelp. Now some people will, no doubt, wonder if my getting out of bed was designed to cause the dog to yelp. There is little one can do for those.

[Cáthasaigh]

Maybe the Northern Bank was robbed by Fianna Fáil with a view to pinning it on the shinners in the future so as to thwart their electoral growth.

[Sam Lord]

Maybe the Northern Bank was robbed by Fianna Fáil with a view to pinning it on the shinners in the future so as to thwart their electoral growth.

Indeed. Or maybe by the Brits. It has all the hallmarks of a black op. I'm surprised that Cactus didn't spot this.

[Kev Bar]

When I got out of bed this morning I stepped on the dog causing it to yelp. Now some people will, no doubt, wonder if my getting out of bed was designed to cause the dog to yelp. There is little one can do for those.

I blame you for going to bed.

Cactus: I believe the decision to release to selected papers was made in response to lack of resources and to the flax over the previous allegefdly "irresponsible" releases.
It was also supposedly the cause of inter Wiki tension.

[thecat]

Wasn't a stash of the Northern Bank money found inside a Police station or an Army Barracks if my memory serves me right? Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that it was the Brits who staged this robbery?

[Cáthasaigh]

Wasn't a stash of the Northern Bank money found inside a Police station or an Army Barracks if my memory serves me right? Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that it was the Brits who staged this robbery?

£20 grand was dumped in the toilets of an RUC social club which was considerably less than found on the cork shinners. If the Brits staged the robbery then why are members of the PRM finance apparatus in gaol after being caught red handed and admitting to laundering Northern Bank money?

[C. Flower]

Indeed. Or maybe by the Brits. It has all the hallmarks of a black op. I'm surprised that Cactus didn't spot this.


My only observation on it was that it had the look of a pension fund. It's not something that I know enough about to comment on.

But I see that you don't view the situation as straightforward -


I think he is/was the major tout. Yes.



I've been told by people who were long standing volunteers that absolutely nothing would surprise them at this stage. So where does that leave the ordinary punter? It will all out one day, however, I am sure ... and that will be a fascinating read.


Messy, is all I would say.

And you should be careful of that poor dog, next time he might do more than yelp ;)

[thecat]

£20 grand was dumped in the toilets of an RUC social club which was considerably less than found on the cork shinners. If the Brits staged the robbery then why are members of the PRM finance apparatus in gaol after being caught red handed and admitting to laundering Northern Bank money?

Admitted laundering NORTHERN BANK money? Is this true, can I see a link?

[Munnkeyman]

Admitted laundering NORTHERN BANK money? Is this true, can I see a link?



George Hegarty, of Donnybrook Cottages, Douglas, Cork pleaded guilty to money laundering at his address in February 2005, knowing or believing that the £66,000 Sterling represented the proceeds of a robbery at the Northern Bank, Belfast in December 2004, or being reckless as to whether that money was or represented such proceeds.



Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-man-pleads-guilty-to-money-laundering-after-northern-bank-robbery-455962.html#ixzz187BwYa5u

[thecat]

So there was no proof that it was Northern Bank money, just that he may or may not have believed that it was?? That's some proof! lol

[Cáthasaigh]

So there was no proof that it was Northern Bank money, just that he may or may not have believed that it was?? That's some proof! lol

It was stated in court as being from the proceeds of the robbery and there was more than one person involved and more than one court case.

[musashi]

assange is time man of the year 2010

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/guardian/pix/pictures/2010/12/14/1292320203047/assange.jpg


gtfo

[Sam Lord]

Wasn't a stash of the Northern Bank money found inside a Police station or an Army Barracks if my memory serves me right? Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that it was the Brits who staged this robbery?

So, why exactly would the Brits be robbing banks in the north? I can't wait to hear this theory.

[C. Flower]

So, why exactly would the Brits be robbing banks in the north? I can't wait to hear this theory.


From what we now know about the bloody banks, perhaps they had lost /misplaced or "borrowed" the money and needed a good explanation for what had happened to it. :D

All I know is that I didn't get any of it.

[C. Flower]

[quote]Garda and DOJ representatives are also likely to continue to be quiet in public and in discussions with us regarding funding of Sinn Fein,s activities in the Republic of Ireland

Anyone got a view on who was the funder/s referred to? - the Gardaí, the D o J, the US, the R o I or other ?

[People Korps]

[quote]

Anyone got a view on who was the funder/s referred to? - the Gardaí, the D o J, the US, the R o I or other ?

Geldof and Bono?

[People Korps]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/guardian/pix/pictures/2010/12/14/1292320203047/assange.jpg


gtfo

It was in the Guardian but they have been hoaxed daily

[Sam Lord]

[quote]

Anyone got a view on who was the funder/s referred to? - the Gardaí, the D o J, the US, the R o I or other ?

The "republican" movement.

In talking about "the funding of Sinn Fein's activities" they are probably talking about dodgy stuff "republicans" were involved in. It did not suit the powers that be to have too much noise made about it at that time.

I don't think you have uncovered the financing of SF by the State Department. :)

[C. Flower]

[quote=C. Flower;102622]

Geldof and Bono?

Right, yes.

[Sam Lord]

From what we now know about the bloody banks, perhaps they had lost /misplaced or "borrowed" the money and needed a good explanation for what had happened to it. :D



So they gave a big stash to people connected to the Shinners?

[C. Flower]

The "republican" movement.

In talking about "the funding of Sinn Fein's activities" they are probably talking about dodgy stuff "republicans" were involved in. It did not suit the powers that be to have too much noise made about it at that time.

I don't think you have uncovered the financing of SF by the State Department. :)

I don't think anything has been uncovered here.:) More of the same. Is there anything new at all in these cables at all ?

[disability student]

[quote=Sam Lord;102625]

I don't think anything has been uncovered here.:) More of the same. Is there anything new at all in these cables at all ?

Cable recently came with Finuance inquiry as they usually released the cables artound 9.30pm every night. I don't know about NYT or others.

[Cáthasaigh]

[quote=C. Flower;102622]

The "republican" movement.

In talking about "the funding of Sinn Fein's activities" they are probably talking about dodgy stuff "republicans" were involved in. It did not suit the powers that be to have too much noise made about it at that time.

I don't think you have uncovered the financing of SF by the State Department. :)

Precisely, what's a topic of discussion here is 'Rafia' activity. What also can't be discounted is the possibility that the 26C administration were attempting to oversee the transfer of Rafia funds and activities into 'legitimate business' that would be taxable....so they could 'wet their beaks a little'.

[Kev Bar]

Seems we will need a paddyleaks over the next two years as "any party found leaking information on any decision made or proposed by the minister under the law can be fined €100,000 and imprisoned for up to three years" - one of the nasty bits of the new banking bill.

[C. Flower]

From Slugger O'Toole

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/16/mitchell-reiss-governments-often-have-information-about-illegal-activities-that-they-decide-not-to-prosecute/


The Irish Echo reports (http://irishecho.com/?p=22153) comments from then-US Special Envoy to Northern Ireland, Mitchell Reiss, on the Wikileaked US Embassy cables from 2005 (http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/12/14/sinn-fein-there-is-not-a-shred-of-evidence-linking-republicans-to-the-northern-bank-robbery/). From the Irish Echo report (http://irishecho.com/?p=22153)

“I believe the taoiseach believed what he told me,” recalled Reiss in the interview.
“This was the taoiseach speaking. The cable doesn’t give you my opinion. I certainly had no evidence whether these men were complicit or not.
“Governments often have information about illegal activities that they decide not to prosecute for a variety of reasons. Many is the time you have certain individuals who are in a peace process, therefore you decide not to pursue these issues. It could be, in some cases, that they’re actually on the payroll as we know some senior IRA people were. There’s no evidence that Adams or McGuinness was, but we know that others were,” Reiss said. [added emphasis]

From the Echo -




The U.S. diplomat at the center of State Department cables posted on the WikiLeaks website claims in an Echo interview that that the U.S. had no evidence to show that Sinn Féin leaders Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness had advance knowledge of an Irish bank raid in 2005 that netted thieves an historic amount of cash.
Mitchell Reiss, the former U.S. special envoy to Northern Ireland under the George W Bush administration, also says there should be an inquiry into the 1989 murder of Belfast solicitor Patrick Finucane.
The original February 4, 2005 cable labeled “SECRET” shows the redacted name of a senior Irish government official who spoke to then American ambassador to Dublin, James Kenny.
Stated the cable: “He said the GOI (Government of Ireland) has no smoking gun or hard evidence but that the GOI considered it 99 percent certain that IRA conducted the robbery,” and that there was ‘rock solid’ evidence that McGuinness and Adams knew of the heist in advance.”
Other cables describing the implications of the December, 2004 Northern Bank robbery, which netted more than $40 million, describe a meeting between then taoiseach Bertie Ahern and Reiss in which Ahern assured Reiss the Provisional IRA was behind the crime.
“I believe the taoiseach believed what he told me,” recalled Reiss in the interview.
“This was the taoiseach speaking. The cable doesn’t give you my opinion. I certainly had no evidence whether these men were complicit or not.
“Governments often have information about illegal activities that they decide not to prosecute for a variety of reasons. Many is the time you have certain individuals who are in a peace process, therefore you decide not to pursue these issues. It could be, in some cases, that they’re actually on the payroll as we know some senior IRA people were. There’s no evidence that Adams or McGuinness was, but we know that others were,” Reiss said.



Anyone know who the R o I senior government official was?