IMF / EFSF Loan - What's the Interest Going to Be ?

[Design for Life]

This question is the most important at the moment it seems

Karl Whelan has the maths to suggest it could be 7%


EFSF Charging 7%?

This post was written by Karl Whelan

During the discussion of the bailout on Prime Time tonight, the prospect was raised (and not denied by Minister Batt O’Keefe) of the EFSF charging 7% to Ireland for its loans.

It may be worth taking at look at the calculations that I did on this issue a few weeks ago. I worked out the formula for the interest rate at the time as

Effective Interest Rate = 1.2*(3-year swap rate + Margin + Annualised Cost of Once-Off Service Fee)

which worked out at the time as

Effective Interest Rate = 1.2*(1.57 + 3.0 + .167) = 1.2*4.737 = 5.68.

The three-year swap rate is now 1.9%, which would give

Effective Interest Rate = 1.2*(1.9 + 3.0 + .167) = 1.2*4.737 = 6.08.

The government’s most recent projections show the debt-GDP ratio peaking at 106%. This is prior to the admission that large amounts of additional money will be borrowed to recapitalise the banking sector. Piling on an interest rate of even 6.1% onto the likely debt levels would greatly reduce the prospect of Ireland avoiding sovereign default. An interest rate of 7% would be grossly unacceptable.

Put simply, if these reports are true, the government needs to refuse any deal based on such a high interest rate. Indeed, unless the government feel compelled to play their role in a morality play in which Ireland is used as cautionary tale, they should refuse any deal featuring a rate higher than the 5% rate that Greece obtained.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2010/11/23/efsf-charging-7/



Last night's Vincent Browne show seems to suggest that the yearly repayments would be €14-18 billion which is what? half the tax take! Utter madness.

[Xray]

Even if this is spin and the % is really 5% we are bust.
This is unaffordable. Time to make hard decisions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/economy_bailout.html

[Ah Well]

Even if this is spin and the % is really 5% we are bust.
This is unaffordable. Time to make hard decisions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1126/economy_bailout.html

The Government's four year plan assumes that by 2014, interest payments will have increased from €2.5 billion to €8.4 billion a year - around one fifth of all tax revenue.

These figures do not include any borrowing that may be made for extra capital for the banks.

Extra capital for the Banks - will that be needed ....

Why of course it will .... as sure as night follows day

Fupped ..... royally fupped ...........

[C. Flower]

Tomorrow's demonstration had better be big.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

let's confuse 'em all Irish stylee ... ring 'em back up and tell 'em we'll accept nothing less than 8.5%.

That should buy us some time.

[Ah Well]

Tomorrow's demonstration had better be big.

Even if it is CF will it stop this devil spawn we have endured as a Gov from signing us away?

I don't think it will

We are hearing the deal is to be done by the weekend/Sunday

This is the signing away of the country, its people, our children and generations to come to crippling unpayable debt

It's just :(:(:(:(

Default will follow

[morticia]

Fupped ..... royally fupped ...........


mmmnyeah, maybe........I think this may be the grand prelude justifying burning the bondholders, though.....

If the senior bondholders are asked to "contribute to the bailing out of the banks", how much of the 85 billion overdraft facility will actually be called upon??

There's an awful lot of maybes here. I'm guessing Anglo at least is gone, kaput, finissimo, splat.

[C. Flower]

mmmnyeah, maybe........I think this may be the grand prelude justifying burning the bondholders, though.....

If the senior bondholders are asked to "contribute to the bailing out of the banks", how much of the 85 billion overdraft facility will actually be called upon??

There's an awful lot of maybes here. I'm guessing Anglo at least is gone, kaput, finissimo, splat.

Morticia, I've not been far wrong in my unscientific guesstimates so far, and my feeling is that the 85 billion won't go near it.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Lets put the 'Anglo' part in liquidation and keep the 'Irish' bit as a good bank. T'would piss Betty the Second off and thats always good.

There does come a time in the affairs of (wo)man (phew) when the only thing left is to start taking the piss.

Sure we might as well have a laugh.

[Ah Well]

There's an awful lot of maybes here.

That's the problem

And it hasn't been positive anywhere along the line

Factor in the Gombeens acting for us

And those equations give you a not so good result

[Ah Well]

Morticia, I've not been far wrong in my unscientific guesstimates so far, and my feeling is that the 85 billion won't go near it.

I agree ...

[culmore]

If you were giving money to fianna Failure with clown and Lenny in charge, how much interest would you want

[morticia]

Morticia, I've not been far wrong in my unscientific guesstimates so far, and my feeling is that the 85 billion won't go near it.

Indeed. But if they burn the bondholders, how much of a hole is left?? Do any of us have any idea of how much the banks owe them??

How much of the hole disappears if they are forced to take a hit??

Can the IMF declare the guarantee void, if it can be proven that the banksters told Lenny one pork pie too many on the 29th Sept, 2008?

What is in Merkel's bond Blast-omatic legislation running through the Bundesrat??

And, in the final analysis, if the Spanish and Belgians go down, will anyone be left to count how much is still owed??

Just a few of the unknown unknowns.......it's pretty darn obvious we can't afford our banks, it's becoming obvious THEY can't afford our banks (I sense wriggle room being created PDQ)......so what happens now??

The IMF are supposed to be negotiating stuff the senior bond holders can't legally challenge.

If so, we might be thanking them yet.

[ang]

Morticia, I've not been far wrong in my unscientific guesstimates so far, and my feeling is that the 85 billion won't go near it.

85BN won't even touch NAMA and the "ticking financial bomb" of derivatives that went into it.

Remember also Peter Bacon informed us all today that he had originally told the Government that NAMA would cost 158 BN so where is that little lot buried because only 80BN have transferred (pre haircut)

We are far from close at 85Bn.

[C. Flower]

85BN won't even touch NAMA and the "ticking financial bomb" of derivatives that went into it.

Remember also Peter Bacon informed us all today that he had originally told the Government that NAMA would cost 158 BN so where is that little lot buried because only 80BN have transferred (pre haircut)

We are far from close at 85Bn.

I'd like to listen to what he said. Dukes said 39 for Anglo - didn't he ? - but wants it all in cash now, upfront, he said this week.

I don't believe any of them. I'm sure they are lying to us and to themselves about their normal domestic loans - small business, car loans, mortages, everything.

I was talking to a book keeper today and he said all he was doing now was winding things up.

The banks are cavernous black holes and this goes not just for Ireland.

[Xray]

mmmnyeah, maybe........I think this may be the grand prelude justifying burning the bondholders, though.....

If the senior bondholders are asked to "contribute to the bailing out of the banks", how much of the 85 billion overdraft facility will actually be called upon??

There's an awful lot of maybes here. I'm guessing Anglo at least is gone, kaput, finissimo, splat.

Interesting point, well spotted. I thought maybe spin for lower rate. But what you say makes sense. They need political cover in the EU for shafting some very big wheels?

[Xray]

I think the demo maybe small tomorrow, people are too scared now.

[Xray]

Is it time to invite in an other world power and offer them something they cannot refuse?

0% tax for Chinese banks for example? And I mean 0%, no tax on staff, nothing. They have an EU bank license then.

We need to start playing some real hard ball here. You are either with us or against us. That needs to be said publicly by someone loud and clear.

Offer one million EU passports to China.

[morticia]

Interesting point, well spotted. I thought maybe spin for lower rate. But what you say makes sense. They need political cover in the EU for shafting some very big wheels?

got it in one, Xray. Da banksters are about to be asked to bend over.

I have a new suspicion; could Frau Merkel be about to reprise the Porsche hedgecutting manual somehow??? She's not a fan of unfettered markets.

I think we underestimate the degree of emotional involvement the German establishment have with the Euro. I think the whole EU thing is tied up in many minds there with somehow making reparations for the whole WWII/Holocaust thing. They might see this as a money grab by greedy markets/hedgies for something that they see as safeguarding Europe's future.

[ang]

I'd like to listen to what he said. Dukes said 39 for Anglo - didn't he ? - but wants it all in cash now, upfront, he said this week.

I don't believe any of them. I'm sure they are lying to us and to themselves about their normal domestic loans - small business, car loans, mortages, everything.

I was talking to a book keeper today and he said all he was doing now was winding things up.

The banks are cavernous black holes and this goes not just for Ireland.

Alan Dukes is playing games. He obviously wants this money upfront to protect Anglo. The EU released a statement earlier this week saying the Anglo restructuring was to become part of the negotiations with EU/IMF. MR Dukes is trying to ensure Anglo is "kept going" for as long as possible.

Peter Bacons disclosure today means Brian Lenihan has also got questions to answer considering information he gave to the Dail.

Link to Peter Bacon interview:-

http://media.newstalk.ie/extra/1468/popup

[morticia]

He'll be lucky.. the jungle drums are all now pro-default

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11842207

[Anti-Coalition]

This was a good guide to the bailout, by a former insider...who was predicting 5% today in the Irish Times...

IMF keen to see back of Dublin as soon as possible (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1126/1224284180184.html)

"What of the financial terms and conditions? The interest rate will likely average around 5 per cent. For an industrial country, repayment of the IMF funds would normally be required in instalments during a three- to five-year period. However, since the loan to Ireland will be the first since the joint EU-IMF rescue fund was set up formally (the Greek bailout was on an ad hoc basis), it cannot be ruled out that a more flexible repayment arrangement might be agreed.


------------
"Donal Donovan was a staff member of the IMF from 1977 to 2005 before retiring as a deputy director. He is currently adjunct professor of economics at the University of Limerick, and a visiting lecturer at Trinity College Dublin.

[disability student]

The Government's four year plan assumes that by 2014, interest payments will have increased from €2.5 billion to €8.4 billion a year - around one fifth of all tax revenue.

These figures do not include any borrowing that may be made for extra capital for the banks.

Extra capital for the Banks - will that be needed ....

Why of course it will .... as sure as night follows day

Fupped ..... royally fupped ...........

The big problem with 4 year plan is based on a set of assumptions which was quite unrealistic. You can't base it solely on a hypothesis figure out of nowhere.

Also they -FF/Lendahand have given us unrealistic figure of growth. In my estimate it would be from -1% to 0.5 at least nothing more or less.

Best option for us -Ireland is to default as we can't keep borrowing and borrowing endlessly sinking us further into a deeper debt more than we think.

[jinnyjoe]

The big problem with 4 year plan is based on a set of assumptions which was quite unrealistic. You can't base it solely on a hypothesis figure out of nowhere.

Also they -FF/Lendahand have given us unrealistic figure of growth. In my estimate it would be from -1% to 0.5 at least nothing more or less.

Best option for us -Ireland is to default as we can't keep borrowing and borrowing endlessly sinking us further into a deeper debt more than we think.

If the Gobsh**tes couldn't negogiate a good deal when the IMF and EU were literally throwing the money at us, then by God that really was the final nail in the political coffin for me. Seriously we were in such a good position to hold them to the grind stone on a better rate.

I spoke with a couple of colleagues today about joining the march tomorrow and all agreed the same - they would definitely have joined it but after the scenes at the student march and the little demo outside the dail earlier this week they are terrified of the GARDA, job well done in the anti riot dept. hope yez are real proud of yourselves, that the people fighting for the rights of you and every other citizen are batoned down by their own. Take a long look at yourselves because you will be immortalised in our history books (along with Bertie's gang) as the baddies in all this.

[TotalMayhem]

It's the final FF sell out. Don't touch our Corporation Tax, we pay whatever interest you demand.


IMF keen to see back of Dublin as soon as possible

More pressing business to attend to, we're done here.

[Tony1975]

€85 billion loan at 6.7% on an income of €30 billion with massive outstanding loans already and expenditure vastly above that €30 income.
Mr. and Mrs. Ireland would never be given this mortgage. Not in a million years (which is about what it will take us to repay).
Dooooooomed :(

[disability student]

€85 billion loan at 6.7% on an income of €30 billion with massive outstanding loans already and expenditure vastly above that €30 income.
Mr. and Mrs. Ireland would never be given this mortgage. Not in a million years (which is about what it will take us to repay).
Dooooooomed :(

Why are FF govt doing this for and they agreed to such a stupid deal ever made with IMF/EU knowing that it's hopeless?? Any sane (i mean SANE) Businessmen or woman wouldn't agree to this kind of a deal.

Maybe they-FF want to pass that buck to the next government with such a huge burden & responsibility. So they could return to power in 2016 in time for a 100 year annisversary of 1916 rising. That's my take... maybe i could be wrong there.

[Tony1975]

Why are FF govt doing this for and they agreed to such a stupid deal ever made with IMF/EU knowing that it's hopeless?? Any sane (i mean SANE) Businessmen or woman wouldn't agree to this kind of a deal.

Maybe they-FF want to pass that buck to the next government with such a huge burden & responsibility. So they could return to power in 2016 in time for a 100 year annisversary of 1916 rising. That's my take... maybe i could be wrong there.

Because FF know their place in the EU. It's on the naughty step, doing what they're told. The scary thing is that FG are even worse Euro-groupies, so we have no hope of respite.
We (Ireland) are flagellating ourselves. It's time to take off the Euro-blinkers. In fact, it's far too late.

[jinnyjoe]

Because FF know their place in the EU. It's on the naughty step, doing what they're told. The scary thing is that FG are even worse Euro-groupies, so we have no hope of respite.
We (Ireland) are flagellating ourselves. It's time to take off the Euro-blinkers. In fact, it's far too late.

Totally agree with you Tony, so who do we vote for in a General Election, the mind boggles??

[Tony1975]

Totally agree with you Tony, so who do we vote for in a General Election, the mind boggles??

It doesn't matter. It's too late. Our last chance to be a proud, independent nation was Nice 2. Even Lisbon was too late.

[jinnyjoe]

It doesn't matter. It's too late. Our last chance to be a proud, independent nation was Nice 2. Even Lisbon was too late.

Guess that's why they voted for the Shinners in Donegal because let's face it they could never form a realistic Gov. So basically we're f**ked is that what you're saying??:(

[wickedfairy]

Is it time to invite in an other world power and offer them something they cannot refuse?

0% tax for Chinese banks for example? And I mean 0%, no tax on staff, nothing. They have an EU bank license then.

We need to start playing some real hard ball here. You are either with us or against us. That needs to be said publicly by someone loud and clear.

Offer one million EU passports to China.

I heard it reported yesterday that a Chinese bank was taking a look at us already, throwing a "slide rule" over "stuff".:) (little trinkets like the ESB, Coillte and a few banks who the hell knows). "Cherrypicking" is the euphimism I think. They might offer to pay us in dollars, after all, they own more of them than the US does so they are flush. Ah yes, do you remember Mary Harney saying we were nearer to Boston than Berlin. They probably have the passports printed already, in the same vast factories where they print all our english speaking magazines. :) But then again, it might work. Maybe we should ask Chavez to come over, on "secondment" and help us, he would certainly help us get our natural resources back, or am I totally delusional in thinking this could solve a lot of our problems?

[Tony1975]

Guess that's why they voted for the Shinners in Donegal because let's face it they could never form a realistic Gov. So basically we're f**ked is that what you're saying??:(

I'd never vote SF myself (almost). But, to be fair, he won them a by election the Eurocrats didn't want them to have. He deserves his victory.
But, yes, we're fucked. We're the Baby P of Europe - totally helpless at the mercy of our guardians - and they don't have our best interests at heart.

[jinnyjoe]

I'd never vote SF myself (almost). But, to be fair, he won them a by election the Eurocrats didn't want them to have. He deserves his victory.
But, yes, we're fucked. We're the Baby P of Europe - totally helpless at the mercy of our guardians - and they don't have our best interests at heart.

How Pearse, Larkin and Co. must be turning in their graves, But sure come the morrow come the revolution and we are supposed to have one of the most educated young and upcoming citizens in Europe. So let us await them and watching the toy show on RTE, do you know what I can see that happening. We might have to wait a few years but our next generation are more confident, more educated and let's face it more able.

[TotalMayhem]

Guess that's why they voted for the Shinners in Donegal because let's face it they could never form a realistic Gov.

Could they not?

Remember Gilmore's arrogance on the Late Late Show? "No cooperation with SF after the next election (maybe later)".

Fact is, SF is the only party of considerable weight opposing the IMF, what choice do we have?

FG and Labour are IMF lackeys in waiting. Kenny and Gilmore don't want to bring down this government. These people are on record for not reversing any cuts. You wouldn't need much imagination to see them b@st@rtds 'passing the budget'. Screw them.

Pearse Doherty trashing Fianna Fáil in their 'heartland' is only the beginning.

[jinnyjoe]

Could they not?

Remember Gilmore's arrogance on the Late Late Show? "No cooperation with SF after the next election (maybe later)".

Fact is, SF is the only party of considerable weight opposing the IMF, what choice do we have?

FG and Labour are IMF lackeys in waiting. Kenny and Gilmore don't want to bring down this government. These people are on record for not reversing any cuts. You wouldn't need much imagination to see them b@st@rtds 'passing the budget'. Screw them.

Pearse Doherty trashing Fianna Fáil in their 'heartland' is only the beginning.

Yes Total their aims may be admirable, but they must be able to implement them and I genuinely don't think they are organised enough. I am prepared to be convinced if they produce a clever and cohesive mandate that we can all believe in. It's all very well spouting we'll do this and disagree with that but you have to show an alternative that will work and up to now they simply haven't shown any of this.

We all need a party that shows leadership, solutions, creativity and a clear and transparent policy to lead us in to the next 4 years, anybody up for the job? It certainly isn't the Shinners Total and I think deep down you know that.

[TotalMayhem]

Yes Total their aims may be admirable, but they must be able to implement them and I genuinely don't think they are organised enough.

Chase the IMF out of town and tell the banks to stick their phony IOUs where the sun don't shine, nothing is of greater importance right now. We're well capable of dealing with the rest.

[disability student]

This came from Property pin re an article in FT.

Source:http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/11/26/417756/first-you-get-the-money-then-you-do-the-restructuring/

If we received the money from IMF, then it would be more likely than not that Ireland would DEFAULT. The article outlined the history of IMF moves to fix an economy like oursas time pass by.

UK did defaulted in 1976 and they asked IMF re loans. They didn't draw down all of it as their economy recovered mainly thanks to an oil find in the north sea and also economic recovery around the world.

[Sidewinder]

Sorry but....

*bwahh-haaa-ha*

Now if me and kerrynorth had been in charge we wouldn't be here. And that's a fact. Do you blame me for sitting laughing in the corner? Even now most people you meet don't have a fecking clue. True, part of that is down to being fed a constant diet of utter bollocks from RTE and the Indo, but still, listening to that rubbish is a sign you are a moron in my book.

We existed, we fought for sanity, we were ignored and slighted and put down as madmen and told to commit suicide. And now everything we said has come to pass.

And people expect me to care now. Tell me, why should I bother fighting for people who spent the last decade fighting against me?

[disability student]

Sorry but....

*bwahh-haaa-ha*

Now if me and kerrynorth had been in charge we wouldn't be here. And that's a fact. Do you blame me for sitting laughing in the corner? Even now most people you meet don't have a fecking clue. True, part of that is down to being fed a constant diet of utter bollocks from RTE and the Indo, but still, listening to that rubbish is a sign you are a moron in my book.

We existed, we fought for sanity, we were ignored and slighted and put down as madmen and told to commit suicide. And now everything we said has come to pass.

And people expect me to care now. Tell me, why should I bother fighting for people who spent the last decade fighting against me?

What are you talking about??:confused:

[TotalMayhem]

From breakingnews.ie

Ryan confident of early rescue deal (http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/ryan-confident-of-early-rescue-deal-483547.html)


As 50,000 people marched through the streets of Dublin over the country’s austerity budget, Communications Minister Eamon Ryan said it was likely an outline agreement for the rescue deal would be concluded tomorrow evening.

It is understood the final figures will be approved at a conference call of EU finance ministers and a meeting of the Cabinet.

However, Mr Ryan rejected reports the interest rate for a loan from the EU and International Monetary Fund (IMF) could be as high as 6.7% for nine years.

“I think that figure was inaccurate and I think it was unfortunate it went out there because I’m sure it scared a hell of a lot of people,” said Mr Ryan.

“There are still negotiations going on on that sort of level of detail. It’s not fixed yet and we’ll have to wait and see until it’s actually done.

“The overall figure has to make sense for us in that we are able to pay it back.”

No sh!t, Eamon.

I'm sure your latest payrise will ease the pain of "burden sharing".

[Cassandra Syndrome]

Just question what is the taxpayer being robbed off here?

€85 Billion for what? At 6.7% interest? Who created this loan and why are citizens paying it back.

Serfdom, simply as. And we are NOT going to accept this arrangment. It os wrong and adjust. And the IMF can go ***** itself.

Civil Disobedience.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I don't even think the commitment to drop the deficit down to 3% over 4 years is remotely possibly never mind servicing over 300billion in loans and interest.

The economy is too small, the fundamentals too fake and all of this is just kicking the can up the road a little way.

Pointless.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Whatever anyone does just ignore the horseshyte about pulling on the green jumper. Avoid taxes where possible, use the black economy where possible, declare nothing, hide anything you can and work off the books if you can.

Forget the corrupt FF Republic of Us. They've finally gone and done what they were fated to do which is to run the country into the ground like the corrupt pigfarmers they always were.

Oh. And maximum disrespect for known FF's wherever possible. They should be treated at a local level like Vichy collaborators were in France.

[tea drinker]

What are you talking about??:confused:
He's bitter because people didn't listen when it could have made a difference.
Aye, that's the situation!

[TotalMayhem]

And maximum disrespect for known FF's wherever possible. They should be treated at a local level like Vichy collaborators were in France.

Cap'n, you know that the 'treatment' of Vichy collaborators went a little bit beyond 'disrespect'?

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2496/20101128130917clipboard.png

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/328/20101128131017clipboard.png

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6105/20101128130832clipboard.png

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2848/20101128131219clipboard.png

[wickedfairy]

Whatever anyone does just ignore the horseshyte about pulling on the green jumper. Avoid taxes where possible, use the black economy where possible, declare nothing, hide anything you can and work off the books if you can.

Forget the corrupt FF Republic of Us. They've finally gone and done what they were fated to do which is to run the country into the ground like the corrupt pigfarmers they always were.

Oh. And maximum disrespect for known FF's wherever possible. They should be treated at a local level like Vichy collaborators were in France.

dont serve them in shops, petrol stations or restaurants, don't cut their hair, shave their beards, deliver their paper, serve them in bars, sell them claret - send them to coventry.

Meaning (courtsey of the Phrase Finder)
To be ignored or ostracised. This behaviour often takes the form of pretending that the shunned person, although conspicuously present, can't be seen or heard.

[morticia]

Most are not in the public eye. May I suggest electoral coventry?? Your chance will be in 3 months time. Even the SBP reckons they've had it.

Not voting for people with whom you disagree politically is the only civilised way IMO.

It appears the choices for the disaffected (i.e most of us) is widening rapidly.... Joe's alliance of the Left, Gerry moving (barely) south of the Border, Independents galore....

Enda's not the only option out there. Repeat, with loudhailer!

[Dr. FIVE]

@Joe LynamI'm hearing that the final decision on #ireland bailout interest rate may not even be taken tonight-Major disagreement between Ger and UK

http://twitter.com/jblynam

[morticia]

http://twitter.com/jblynam

Any info on who is trying to punish us more?? I'm guessing the Brits are for letting us off with a lower interest rate because their banks are more directly in the firing line, but that could go either way.

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll be spending Sterling by THIS xmas, not the next.

[Starbuck]

Remember when we used to talk about Africa and debt-forgiveness?
We're all Africans now. Ha Ha.
.....ahhhh, the good ole days.....

[wickedfairy]

Gene Kerrigan has hit the nail on the head. Sunday Indo today....

Gene Kerrigan: A bailout? This is more like a stitch-up
There is a very good reason our Taoiseach was slow to accept the EU/IMF deal, writes Gene Kerrigan

Or -- if we want to go ballistic altogether -- we could always pick an island (Inishvickillane would be my choice), put it on eBay and invite the Chinese, the Iranians and the North Koreans to bid. Let's see how much Merkel and Obama between them would come up with to head off that prospect. Bids start at €85bn.

And that, Leo, would be hardball.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/genen/gene-kerrigan-a-bailout-this-is-more-like-a-stitchup-2439265.html

[Dr. FIVE]

Any info on who is trying to punish us more?? I'm guessing the Brits are for letting us off with a lower interest rate because their banks are more directly in the firing line, but that could go either way.

From the same
sources suggest-Germany is insisting on a punitive rate of around 7% for the bailout

But thats from a beeb journalist so...

[wickedfairy]

quote from Max Keiser...

Until the Irish (Portuguese, Spanish, etc.) wake up and understand they are fighting a financial war, not a political war, they are guaranteed to lose big time. To fight a financial war you have to deprive the opposition of their finances. The most effective way to achieve this would be to crash JP Morgan (one of the banks funding the IMF that is stealing your money) by buying Silver and forcing JPM to write off their 1.5 trillion dollar loss – against a market cap. 1/10th that size; (i.e., go bankrupt). Or, you can wave your placards in the streets and pay taxes on non existent jobs to the IMF, while living in your IMF owned homes raising the next generation of IMF slaves – for the rest of your sorry lives. Irish banks had debts that were 2 X’s Ireland’s GDP. JP Morgan has debts that are 430 X’s the market cap. of JPM (65 trillion / 150 bn.). JPM has more derivatives debt on their books than the ENTIRE GDP OF THE WORLD. Do you understand why they need to gobble up your puny little country and steal the $20 bn. you have on your books? They are suicide bankers – blowing themselves and you up – for their ideology of bonuses, drugs and hookers. Your money will make a lot of drug dealers and prostitutes on Wall St. happy this holiday season as Wall St. pays itself a record 140 bn. in bonuses.

[C. Flower]

quote from Max Keiser...

Until the Irish (Portuguese, Spanish, etc.) wake up and understand they are fighting a financial war, not a political war, they are guaranteed to lose big time. To fight a financial war you have to deprive the opposition of their finances. The most effective way to achieve this would be to crash JP Morgan (one of the banks funding the IMF that is stealing your money) by buying Silver and forcing JPM to write off their 1.5 trillion dollar loss – against a market cap. 1/10th that size; (i.e., go bankrupt). Or, you can wave your placards in the streets and pay taxes on non existent jobs to the IMF, while living in your IMF owned homes raising the next generation of IMF slaves – for the rest of your sorry lives. Irish banks had debts that were 2 X’s Ireland’s GDP. JP Morgan has debts that are 430 X’s the market cap. of JPM (65 trillion / 150 bn.). JPM has more derivatives debt on their books than the ENTIRE GDP OF THE WORLD. Do you understand why they need to gobble up your puny little country and steal the $20 bn. you have on your books? They are suicide bankers – blowing themselves and you up – for their ideology of bonuses, drugs and hookers. Your money will make a lot of drug dealers and prostitutes on Wall St. happy this holiday season as Wall St. pays itself a record 140 bn. in bonuses.

Go MK.

Sachs said that the Wall Street Bonuses are greater than the world's total charitable endeavours.

[Xray]

Well I guess the story that the 6.7% was simply cover for burning bond holders was wishful thinking. We have let all the bond holders off the hook(ie we have agreed to pay them instead of sending our kids to college).

We have been royally had here. Watching Cowen on the TV earlier he did not seem to ever care, it did not take a feather out of him. No wonder we got such a bad deal.

[C. Flower]

Well I guess the story that the 6.7% was simply cover for burning bond holders was wishful thinking. We have let all the bond holders off the hook(ie we have agreed to pay them instead of sending our kids to college).

We have been royally had here. Watching Cowen on the TV earlier he did not seem to ever care, it did not take a feather out of him. No wonder we got such a bad deal.


No. He smiled, I heared.

Íf 5.8% is the average (does that include the pension fund) some of it must be at 6.7% or close to it.

They spread stories of hard negotiation, but all they were negotiating was the form of words.

[Xray]

No. He smiled, I heared.

Íf 5.8% is the average (does that include the pension fund) some of it must be at 6.7% or close to it.

They spread stories of hard negotiation, but all they were negotiating was the form of words.

Speculation elsewhere on the net is saying that if you take out the 20% we are lending ourselves which is at 0% then the average on the rest is 7.25%.

This needs some clarification, but why we would include money we already have in a loan package is bizarre anyway.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/ex-domestically-sourced-pension-funds-blended-irish-rescue-interest-rate-725

[Dr. FIVE]

He actually tried to tell some sort of joke at one point.

Only one laughing.

[C. Flower]

Namawinelake has just posted on this: the interest rate is indeed more than 6.7%

[TotalMayhem]

'Honey' Honohan was speaking from the Ministry of Truth:

"Suse, there will be a little bit more of that NAMA stuff, but depositors with banks to be wound down shouldn't be worrying themselves, their deposits will find cozy new homes."

Isn't that sweet?

[C. Flower]

Bump - It's been confirmed by RTE that the EU is charging an extra 3.8% - totalling 5 billion, on the loan agreement to Ireland.

This is unprecedented.

[Ah Well]

Bump - It's been confirmed by RTE that the EU is charging an extra 3.8% - totalling 5 billion, on the loan agreement to Ireland.

This is unprecedented.

Ah, we're safer in Europe dontcha know


http://wexfordrebelalliance.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/yes32.jpg

[PaddyJoe]

The Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs is inviting representatives of the IMF, EU and the ECB to a meeting to examine the terms of the loans to be granted to Ireland.

The Committee decided that this was necessary in order to establish whether or not Ireland has received the most favourable terms possible and to ascertain why we are paying the prescribed interest rates.

Committee Chairman, Bernard Durkan TD said;
“The Committee feels that it is worth scrutinising the nature of these huge loans. While we should welcome the EU’s willingness to support Ireland at this difficult time, the vast sums of money granted to Ireland by Europe and the IMF will unquestionably be a heavy burden on Ireland for several years.

Therefore, the Committee has decided to invite in representatives from all the main players involved in agreeing the loan and determining its provisions. We believe that people have a right to know how the details of the loans were arrived at, so we are hopeful that all those invited will respond positively to our requests.”
http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/title-2050-en.html
Way way too late. Why weren't they examining this two weeks ago?:(

[TotalMayhem]

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/3915/20101214221105clipboard.png

[ang]

Yes it seems we are being charged an extra 3% on the EFSF part of loan which neither Latvia or Greece were charged.

Meanwhile :-


The Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs had today agreed to invite all the principle protagonists including the IMF, the European Commission and the European Central Bank to a meeting of the Committee in order to conduct a thorough analysis of the terms of recent loans granted to Ireland.

The Committee decided that this was necessary in order to establish whether or not Ireland has received the most favourable terms possible and to ascertain why we are paying the prescribed interest rates.

Committee Chairman, Bernard Durkan TD said;
“The Committee feels that it is worth scrutinising the nature of these huge loans. While we should welcome the EU’s willingness to support Ireland at this difficult time, the vast sums of money granted to Ireland by Europe and the IMF will unquestionably be a heavy burden on Ireland for several years.

Therefore, the Committee has decided to invite in representatives from all the main players involved in agreeing the loan and determining its provisions. We believe that people have a right to know how the details of the loans were arrived at, so we are hopeful that all those invited will respond positively to our requests.”

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/title-2050-en.html

[C. Flower]

The Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs is inviting representatives of the IMF, EU and the ECB to a meeting to examine the terms of the loans to be granted to Ireland.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/mediazone/pressreleases/title-2050-en.html
Way way too late. Why weren't they examining this two weeks ago?:(

We were examining it. We could see the charge was astrnomic.

Lenihan kept saying Greece wanted the same terms - a lie.

[ang]

Latvia were also given up to 3.1 BN from the EU and this "interest surcharge" did not apply to them either.

Why is Ireland being treated differently ? Could it be that our "special problems" add up to "special interest"

Who needs enemies with friends like the EU ?

Latvia, I know the EFSF fund was not in operation then but they still got a better deal:-


The financial assistance package will cover the period up to the beginning of 2011, the European Commission said in an e- mailed statement today. The IMF will provide 1.7 billion euros, the Nordic countries will together give 1.8 billion euros and the European Union will supply as much as 3.1 billion euros, with the balance covered by the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, the World Bank, Poland, Estonia and the Czech Republic, according to the statement.



http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aGIcnXZNN1I4&refer=europe

[wickedfairy]

I posted Max Keiser 101 and 102 here the other day Cactus, if you have a look at those, including the interview with an Icelandic parlimatarian (101) he said he felt so sorry for Ireland and a Greek guy from stopspeculators.gr (102) it tells a sorry tale. Well worth an hour of your time.

[PaddyJoe]

If I was into conspiracy theories I would say that the extra charge was imposed because France and Germany are very angry about the refusal to budge on Corporation Tax.

[C. Flower]

If I was into conspiracy theories I would say that the extra charge was imposed because France and Germany are very angry about the refusal to budge on Corporation Tax.

And Germany is still collecting the DEPFA bailout back...

[TotalMayhem]

And Germany is still collecting the DEPFA bailout back...

Any idea why the license for this 'house of horror' has not been revoked by the financial regulator?