The Issue of Militarism vs Non-Violence in the Republican Movement

[Apjp]

I doubt they'd join an alliance because of issues with the national question and the groups who are already in such an alliance. Nothing against anarchists per se but they wouldn't join an alliance like this out of principle.

Yeah. Personally, I believe these two groups are the only two that condone violence at protests-though I saw only fractions(the odd egg or beer can, nothing really) at one recently. Otherwise I have no problem with other left crowds.

[Apjp]

Seriously, any chance you can stop the sniping about eirigi and the 32 CSM.

You're a member of the WP ffs. Do you know their history ?
Do you know the history of FF ?
When did the stickies last decommission ??? 2010 was it ??

How many guns do eirigi have to decommission ??? None
The 32 CSM are a pressure group and nothing else.

You support the ULA ??
Why ?
What is the most important issue facing the 26C state at the minute ?? Have you seen whats in store in the 4 year plan ?

Please focus your mind and energy at the enemy and stop sniping at those who would have broadly similar aims as the WP regarding bailing out the banks.

If you wish to aim for opposition then the IMF/EU are in and own the state.
The only way to prevent this is for all groups opposed to atleast show some solidarity in a time of crisis.

I flatly refuse any suggestion that the WP have anything in common with Eirigi-that is wrong. We set out clear policies, aims and objectives as well as social beliefs on our site. The ones of Eirigi are considerably less so. With all due respect, Ireland is not Cuba and people are not looking for a revolution that would overthrow the entire fabric of the state through violent means. Of course, this may be a misperception and wide of the mark on my part. For that, I apologize to Eirigi members. But seriously folks, when will you stop throwing paint at people for a cheap headline, ruining days of celebration for patients relying on new hospitals? That event summed up my attitude to eirigi. They are quite small, which i don't mind. But when they quit the mere militant phrase and tone, and start trying to win some seats like the rest of us, with real substantial policies then fair play, I will acknowledge them. What I am saying is, i will take eirigi seriously as either a fellow DS party, or an anarchist group, as well as the 32 CSM when they grow up and distance themselves from suspect military action up North-and yes I do believe they have an onus to prove they are a grown up party and not some ***** show attention seeking brigade. Please, prove me wrong. I plead with you to do so. And history is one thing, today is another-besides the WP left OSF because they wanted peaceful democratic socialism, and for many years we were a respected parliamentary party. Now, since our split, we are recouperating, but at least we know what we are about-what are you about? what do you stand for besides Ms. 'look at me' Minihen's painting actions and storming the gates of the dail? Protests are just a part of greater change.

[moss]

(1)I flatly refuse any suggestion that the WP have anything in common with Eirigi-that is wrong. (2)We set out clear policies, aims and objectives as well as social beliefs on our site. The ones of Eirigi are considerably less so. (3)With all due respect, Ireland is not Cuba and people are not looking for a revolution that would overthrow the entire fabric of the state through violent means. Of course, this may be a misperception and wide of the mark on my part. For that, I apologize to Eirigi members. But seriously folks, (4)when will you stop throwing paint at people for a cheap headline, ruining days of celebration for patients relying on new hospitals? That event summed up my attitude to eirigi. They are quite small, which i don't mind. (5)But when they quit the mere militant phrase and tone, and start trying to win some seats like the rest of us, with real substantial policies then fair play, I will acknowledge them. What I am saying is, i will take eirigi seriously as either a fellow DS party, or an anarchist group, as well as the 32 CSM when they grow up and distance themselves from suspect military action up North-and yes I do believe they have an onus to prove they are a grown up party and not some ***** show attention seeking brigade. Please, prove me wrong. I plead with you to do so. And history is one thing, today is another-besides the WP left OSF because they wanted peaceful democratic socialism, and for many years we were a respected parliamentary party. Now, since our split, we are recouperating, but at least we know what we are about-what are you about? what do you stand for besides Ms. 'look at me' Minihen's painting actions and storming the gates of the dail? Protests are just a part of greater change.

(1) If the WP are against the bank bail outs and oppose the intervention of the IMF/EU then you do indeed have something in common with eirigi and the 32CSM.

(2)You think the WP have a better website ? So what ? How many elected reps do you have ?
I happen to think eirigi have a decent site and are building their new organisation from scracth.
How long have the WP been around ?

(3)With no repect whatsoever, you do not speak for Ireland and yes, many do want a new society.
Are the WP content with the inequalities in the Ireland today and with whats to come ? If not then they should have the wit to realise that changing a few gombeens for more gombeens in a semi independent state is not the way to go.

(4)From reading forums it seemed that the stunt was well recieved. Are you that squeemish that a bit of paint upset you ?
it didn't even upset the patients as there was none there. It was a sod turning for a building that may or may not eventually be built.

You don't mind them being small ??? Who do you think you are and do you think anyone cares what you think ?

(5)Are you long out of nappies ?
There is feck all wrong with militant language. The 26 C state is fooked. Something needs to be done.
DS party or anarchists ? Catch a grip. It doesn't have to be one of the other.
And again with you condecending language. You will acknowledge them if they jump through hoops for you ?

Please provide evidence of eirigi being supportive of military action or retract in full.


It's hard to know whether you are a member of the WP tbh. I didn't think they could sink lower.

Now one of there members thinks the onus is on an organisation with no paramilitary links to prove their bone fide, 10 months after their ceasefire soldier friends from the 70's only recently decommisioned their weapons.


http://www.eirigi.org/

[Socialist Republican]

Yeah. Personally, I believe these two groups are the only two that condone violence at protests-though I saw only fractions(the odd egg or beer can, nothing really) at one recently. Otherwise I have no problem with other left crowds.

Who are you saying condones violence at protests Apjp?

[C. Flower]

Apjp - even the witchhunting piece in the Indo recently, quoting the Gardái, acknowledge that Eirigi is not a violent organisation and that it has no military wing.

Do you accept this ?

[Lifeisagame]

Apjp - even the witchhunting piece in the Indo recently, quoting the Gardái, acknowledge that Eirigi is not a violent organisation and that it has no military wing.

Do you accept this ?
Eirigi are dis-affected SF it would be hard to believe they have no military wing or they have no reason for existence. What else are they there for?

[Socialist Republican]

Eirigi are dis-affected SF it would be hard to believe they have no military wing or they have no reason for existence. What else are they there for?

Thats unbelievable nonsense mate. Do you actually believe that?

[C. Flower]

Eirigi are dis-affected SF it would be hard to believe they have no military wing or they have no reason for existence. What else are they there for?

eirigi was founded in Dublin as a Republican Socialist Party.

Do you think all parties have to have military wings?

[Apjp]

Some true points have been raised about a lack of clarity on my points. Look, bottom line, if eirigi are political let them prove so at the ballot box. I will listen to people like yourselves with open ears. And the context of a generation long before mine is none at all moss-totally irrelevant. Maybe I did jump to conclusions, but certainly this is the widespread perception of eirigi, like i said, this is just an opinion, not defamtion, so i do not retract. i DID SAY PROVE ME WRONG, DID I NOT? Since when is an assumption an accusation? Ok, so you say you don't condoen violence of the nature that some people up north still do-i believe you. but please, say that you have more to your party than headline grabbing, then i will happily admit the fool was I, and apologize for my misplaced opinions. please, do so by not just covering people in paint-it might be funny but its stupid. then we can talk policy.

[Lifeisagame]

eirigi was founded in Dublin as a Republican Socialist Party.

Do you think all parties have to have military wings?
I know of no Party with a military wing, but there are some I would expect to have because of their roots.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I care when members of the WP are hypocritical enough to suggest an organisation that has never had paramilitary connections be shunned until they 'prove themselves'
Bizzare given their history/present position.


AJPJ can speak for himself and defend what he said or otherwise.

Personally I'm no fan of Eirigi but I accept that they are not and have not been engaged in paramilitary activity.

On the hypocrisy, the WP has proven it's commitment to a political path since the mid 70s. Nobody is going to pretend there weren't some murky activities during the 70s and 80s as the organisation moved away from militarism.

Progess or something to regret? Both really, but perception can be either of the glass being half-empty or half-full variety. For me it is the latter.

Changes don't happen overnight despite best intentions.

As far as I'm concerned the WP is now, and has been for a generation, removed from a militarist mindset and strategy.

Hopefully with time the other republican organisations will get to the same palce on this political path.

As Goulding said, the WP was right but too early, Adams/SF was right but too late, and O'Bradaigh will never be right.

[Prometheus]

I have been a member of the WP for almost 25 years and I agree with what Left at the Cross has said. The party had already left its military connections behind by the time I joined but it was a convenient stick for our enemies to beat us with, particularly when we were doing well. It was also used cynically in 1992 by those who sought to subvert democracy in the party and turn it away from being a revolutionary socialist party into a social democratic party run by a parliamentary cabal. They failed and eventually found a home in the Labour Party.

I am not a pacifist but do believe that war and violence must only be used in the most extreme situations where no other option is available, i.e. in cases of extreme oppression, armed invasion, violent suppression of human rights. Civil disobedience is also something which should be used sparingly. I do think that we have come to a situation in Ireland where civil disobedience (sit-downs, occupations of buildings as opposed to attacking the police or politicians) will have to take place. Most Irish people are very angry at the moment but aren't coming on to the streets to protest. We need to build those numbers and Saturday's march in Dublin is a good start. Violent acts are generally counterproductive and result in increased violence and more extreme tactics from the establishment. Hundreds of thousands of people on the streets of our cities would be far more effective than one fool throwing a petrol bomb and injuring a fellow worker. Look at the movements that have been successful in the 20th century. While they may not have achieved all their aims, many did make significant progress without recourse to violence: the black civil rights movement in the US, the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association, the anti-apartheid movement, etc, etc.

The people of Erris in North Mayo have shown the way. Over the last decade they have been treated appallingly by the state and its agents at the behest of Shell and other oil and gas multnationals. They stood shoulder to shoulder in non-violent resistance. All of the violence came from the state and from the gardaí in particular. People were physically assaulted, thrown heavily into deep gullies, pushed and beaten up but did not hit back. They merely stood their ground. That's what we have to do now.

The Irish working class makes up the huge majority of the Irish people. They are under attack. A few hotheads resorting to violence will only alienate people. We need to stand together whatever group we belong to because we must remember that the overwhelming majority of the people are not in any party or group. If we squabble amongst ourselves about tactics we will get nowhere.

[Socialist Republican]

I know of no Party with a military wing, but there are some I would expect to have because of their roots.

Such as?

[Socialist Republican]

A few hotheads resorting to violence will only alienate people

But who is resorting to violence?

[C. Flower]

But who is resorting to violence?

So far, it has been the Gardai.

Always worth checking the footwear if you spot someone trying to cause trouble ;)

[Socialist Republican]

So far, it has been the Gardai.

Always worth checking the footwear if you spot someone trying to cause trouble ;)

Absolutely CF but there are people (not just the media/political/gardai establishment) on the left who try to imply that some groups are causing violence which is bull

[C. Flower]

Absolutely CF but there are people (not just the media/political/gardai establishment) on the left who try to imply that some groups are causing violence which is bull

Is "felon setting" the right term ?

[Socialist Republican]

Is "felon setting" the right term ?

Absolutely CF

[Prometheus]

But who is resorting to violence?

I was speaking of the future and the possibility that someone might resort to violence.

[moss]

I was speaking of the future and the possibility that someone might resort to violence.


The guardians of the state/establishment ??

[C. Flower]

If someone can come up with a better title for this thread, which was split off from the ULA thread, please let me know.

[moss]

Seem to sum up the jist of the thread perfectly CF.

Well, if you can call the Workers Party republican that is.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Well, if you can call the Workers Party republican that is.

Republican yes, nationalist no.

[disability student]

Absolutely CF but there are people (not just the media/political/gardai establishment) on the left who try to imply that some groups are causing violence which is bull

Not all gardai looking for trouble. However some Gardai have spoken to the media today which indicated that they were looking for some justification in giving some of their 'own' thuggery to the marchers.This is a concerted attempt by the gardaí to intimidate people into staying at home- don't let it work!

Funny enough,i was chatting to a guy whose relative gardai worked in the drug squad which i didn't know. He never mentioned it to me and now i know it. I was told not bring it up to him at all.

[C. Flower]

Republican yes, nationalist no.

Where does that put the rights of nations to self-determination ?

[moss]

Republican yes

You left out partitionist and touts.

[C. Flower]

Maybe the title is a bit inflammatory.

Any suggestions for something that we could discuss ?

[moss]

Maybe the title is a bit inflammatory.

Any suggestions for something that we could discuss ?

It actually did start of though with a member of the WP felon setting.

[Fraxinus]

Holier than thou politics in Ireland, how the high horse links Irelands political parties.

[Cáthasaigh]

Republican yes, nationalist no.

Irish Republicans don't accept the legitimacy of British rule or the crown forces in Ireland. The WP is little more than a collaborationist, criminal gang which by the way has not decommisioned the weapons it has retained and used for purely criminal purposes. The act of decommisioning reported last year was actually carried out by the ORM not the WP.

[Cáthasaigh]

It actually did start of though with a member of the WP felon setting.

That would be the shower whose spokesentity commented on the prison protests during Bobby Sands' hunger strike that he was 'only concerned with bread and butter issues'.

[Fraxinus]

Irish Republicans don't accept the legitimacy of British rule or the crown forces in Ireland. The WP is little more than a collaborationist, criminal gang which by the way has not decommisioned the weapons it has retained and used for purely criminal purposes. The act of decommisioning reported last year was actually carried out by the ORM not the WP.

Hold on, was this done at the same time as INLA?

[antiestablishmentarian]

I'm no fan of eirigí: I think they are engaging in short-sighted stunt politics which will hamper their growth in the long run, plus I am not too enamoured with their position on the national question. However, it is simply untrue to state that they are violent or that they are a proto-provo organisation. They don't support armed struggle except in cases where it's communities defending themselves from state forces, and wherever there is violence at a protest and they're involved, it's without exception violence on the part of the gardaí. I'm no republican, but it's clear that those who are republicans, be they supporters/activists in or of armed struggle or peaceful, they are vilifed, their names dragged through the mud and any unsubstantiated rumour can be made about them and that generally the gombín state forces target them more than other groups, though they like to raise the spectre of anarchists too after the Rossport struggle. It's also clear that the state and media is starting to turn on socialists alot more too, there's been echoes of that in the local college newspaper, where our organisation was singled out as being the protagonists in the November 4 garda riot, while the Indo has started to launch low level and intermittent smears too.

[Cáthasaigh]

Hold on, was this done at the same time as INLA?

It was done within a similar timeframe however the timing of both acts may have had more to do with rapidly impending deadlines than anything else.

[C. Flower]

Irish Republicans don't accept the legitimacy of British rule or the crown forces in Ireland. The WP is little more than a collaborationist, criminal gang which by the way has not decommisioned the weapons it has retained and used for purely criminal purposes. The act of decommisioning reported last year was actually carried out by the ORM not the WP.

I don't agree with that. The Workers Party is clearly a political party, with policies and (I presume) a programme.

There are a number of Republican groups that are far too vague about their politics for my taste. That would raise all kinds of questions in my mind, but is no excuse for them being smeared without evidence.

[Socialist Republican]

I'm no fan of eirigí: I think they are engaging in short-sighted stunt politics which will hamper their growth in the long run, plus I am not too enamoured with their position on the national question

Why not? Whats wrong with it?

[C. Flower]

Why not? Whats wrong with it?

My main difficulty with eírígí is all those fádas, and that fact that it's really hard to get information from them.

For example, I emailed and messaged a number of people about the Court cases of the people arrested at Anglo Irish, and got no reply.

[Socialist Republican]

My main difficulty with eírígí is all those fádas, and that fact that it's really hard to get information from them.

For example, I emailed and messaged a number of people about the Court cases of the people arrested at Anglo Irish, and got no reply.

Those cases havent taken place yet

[Christy Walsh]

I don't agree with that. The Workers Party is clearly a political party, with policies and (I presume) a programme.

There are a number of Republican groups that are far too vague about their politics for my taste. That would raise all kinds of questions in my mind, but is no excuse for them being smeared without evidence.
The Workers Party are different things North and South --up north they are very much into gangsterism --their social clubs are notorious for being 'shoplifters outlets' (and you can pre-order what you want shoplifted). They were heavy into racketeering on building sites in a co-operative way with Loyalists. Anyone listening to the security forces on scanners would always know when someone from the worker party had been stopped by the army or cops because after being P checked -the radio operator would come back identifying them as 'friendly enemy' where other nationalist were either 'green lights' or 'player' depending if they were active republicans.

[Socialist Republican]

The Workers Party are different things North and South --up north they are very much into gangsterism --their social clubs are notorious for being 'shoplifters outlets' (and you can pre-order what you want shoplifted). They were heavy into racketeering on building sites in a co-operative way with Loyalists. Anyone listening to the security forces on scanners would always know when someone from the worker party had been stopped by the army or cops because after being P checked -the radio operator would come back identifying them as 'friendly enemy' where other nationalist were either 'green lights' or 'player' depending if they were active republicans.

The stickies were armed enforcers for the British army in nationalist areas. They worked hand in hand with both the British army and the loyalist death squads

[C. Flower]

I've retitled this thread, as I said I would earlier, as I feel the original title (which I wrote myself) was inflammatory.

[Socialist Republican]

I've retitled this thread, as I said I would earlier, as I feel the original title (which I wrote myself) was inflammatory.

Who was for "non-violence CF"?

[C. Flower]

Who was for "non-violence CF"?

I'm in trouble now ;)

Seriously, a better title is needed if we're going to get discussion instead of a slagging session (or nothing).

[moss]

Personally I don't think the new title reflects the nature of the posts.

Almost all posts are connected with eirigi and the WP.

A member of the WP was felon setting eirigi.

IMO the title now leaves a grey area where there is none. eirigi have no connection to militarism and never have.

[Sam Lord]

Worst thread ever ....

[C. Flower]

Worst thread ever ....

That's going to raise the standard...

[Apjp]

Republican yes, nationalist no.

Just briefly on this point, before I respond to the main issues at hand, I am not a true nationalist as some would define it, but I do believe in bringing the two sides of our island closer together through political co-operation and hopefully eventually creating a united economically independent 32 county republic-but this is more on a personal level. I have my beliefs on this matter, but I would be your typical Southern Irish republican in one sense in that I know it will take time and a lot of hard work. However, I do not think it is a flawed ambition, or unachievable. Like I say, though, my personal opinion, not the party line, as left said.

[Apjp]

Irish Republicans don't accept the legitimacy of British rule or the crown forces in Ireland. The WP is little more than a collaborationist, criminal gang which by the way has not decommisioned the weapons it has retained and used for purely criminal purposes. The act of decommisioning reported last year was actually carried out by the ORM not the WP.

Are you the same Mr. Cathasaigh that wrote a brilliant recent article on Mr. James Connolly in the look left mag? I know of no such weapons, but please enlighten me to my hidden guns.

[Socialist Republican]

Are you the same Mr. Cathasaigh that wrote a brilliant recent article on Mr. James Connolly in the look left mag? I know of no such weapons, but please enlighten me to my hidden guns.

The weapons belonging to the the official IRA/Group B or whatever title you wish to give it have never been decomissioned. Why do you think that is?

[Apjp]

I would like to say something, which the people of the Eirigi association can take or leave, it is their choice. I am sorry if anything I said offended your aims as an organization. However, having said that, I do not accept that there was an intention on my part to deliberately smear anyone, as I expressed an opinion-nobody had to believe what I said as opinions are made based on perception, knowledge and reasoning of fact, or admittedly in this case, lack thereof. What I will say is that I can see how my statements may have been perceived as offensive, and indeed were in some respects crossing a thin line between unfounded assumptions and personal expression. As I did not deliberately set out to defame anyone , I do not retract all of what I said, but i do apologize for the comment which implied guilty until proven innocent-you are right moss, enough people are in trouble today for saying what they think. And I would hope that you would have the grace I should have shown you before questioning your methods in, along with s.republican, accepting my being mistaken in so doing, and the subsequent apology. However, i would like to note that as an organization with a great taste for direct action, eirigi has declared it's hopes for a socialist republic based on campiagning. Seperate to the issue of the apology, which I will not hold against you if you reject as I understand you must be bloody pissed off atm, will we see documents published by eirigi in the near future on their policies? In that respect, I think it is time for all of us, yourselves included, to do some numbercrunching. I hope the WP has set out it's stall with it's budget submission in a clear light-which I will read very shortly. Again, I hope that you will not hold this against me-you may blame it on my ignorance, or reading one too many issues of the evening herald because it is free in college, but I have humbly offered you an apology which I hope you will both accept so that we can all start talking policies, aims and campaigns, as well as, certainly on my part, forthright opinions again.

[moss]

Nobody is looking for an apology Apjp.

All I asked was you stop repeating lies and and unfounded accusations.

Time to move on

[Apjp]

Nobody is looking for an apology Apjp.

All I asked was you stop repeating lies and and unfounded accusations.

Time to move on

Ok. I acknowledge your fears. As you say, we must move on. And I ask you will we see many candidates from your party in the GE? And with clear policies? I have started another thread where people of all groups can put their stated candidates and manifestoes up-if they so wish.

[Apjp]

The weapons belonging to the the official IRA/Group B or whatever title you wish to give it have never been decomissioned. Why do you think that is?

I do not know. All I know is that my party is a peaceful one and has been for over thirty years now. I know nothing of paramilitary activity from the ira/b/c or d for that matter. Though I realize there is still a minority of people who do campaign for that up north-miniscule but dangerous. if any of you wish to warn me of such people by informing me in detail, please do so. I am just a young meath student, writer and democratic socialist. No terrorist am I.

[moss]

Ok. I acknowledge your fears. As you say, we must move on. And I ask you will we see many candidates from your party in the GE? And with clear policies? I have started another thread where people of all groups can put their stated candidates and manifestoes up-if they so wish.


Not likely. My party are a rabid band of anarchists that eat babies.



I am not a member of eirigi and never have been.

[Apjp]

Not likely. My party are a rabid band of anarchists that eat babies.

Nice sarcasm. A bit distasteful, but I get your point. Sorry, I thought you were in Eirigi. Well are you in a party, and if so, which one? What are your ambitions, ideals, hopes and dreams besides getting the IMF and FF off our back?

[mutley]

Nice sarcasm. A bit distasteful, but I get your point. Sorry, I thought you were in Eirigi. Well are you in a party, and if so, which one? What are your ambitions, ideals, hopes and dreams besides getting the IMF and FF off our back?

I think wanting the IMF and FF of our backs, is enough to be getting on with at the moment, can your party do that?

Anyone can hope and dream, it's those that turn it into reality, that are useful

[Socialist Republican]

I do not know. All I know is that my party is a peaceful one and has been for over thirty years now. I know nothing of paramilitary activity from the ira/b/c or d for that matter. Though I realize there is still a minority of people who do campaign for that up north-miniscule but dangerous. if any of you wish to warn me of such people by informing me in detail, please do so. I am just a young meath student, writer and democratic socialist. No terrorist am I.

I am not suggesting for a second that you know anything of the OIRA/Group B activities. But the reality is that they were still active even during the past decade

[Apjp]

I think wanting the IMF and FF of our backs, is enough to be getting on with at the moment, can your party do that?

Anyone can hope and dream, it's those that turn it into reality, that are useful

You are right. hopes and dreams are just what we live for..if we do live for anything nowadays. But seriously, I take your point. Unfortunately, my party is too small to do that alone. I now know five candidates is the minimum number we are running in the next general election, prob 8 or 9 max.-gives you an idea of our size and present financial difficulties. If we return 3 seats, in Cork, Waterford, Fingal(north dublin) where we have good support bases it will be a start. I think we have plenty of potential to grow and thrive-I am confident there will be far more local election candidates, and more in the next general election too beyond this one-but for now, three seats seems to be the aim-anything more is a bonus. We want to change Ireland. But that would be impossible to do over night. Certainly, with our 5-9 candidates, the ULA's 20, and maybe SF, there is a realistic prospect of a Democratic socialist opposition in the next dail. If it is any comfort, I do not think anyone sees the next govt. lasting 5 years, and even FF could not win back fifty seats or so after only a few years out-so there is our hope.

[Apjp]

I am not suggesting for a second that you know anything of the OIRA/Group B activities. But the reality is that they were still active even during the past decade

Ok, I accept your points, sorry. But see things from my point of view-with all of the problems down here-when have I ever really had cause in the last few years to focus on matters of the north? You would know more than me on that count, with ease.

[Socialist Republican]

Ok, I accept your points, sorry. But see things from my point of view-with all of the problems down here-when have I ever really had cause in the last few years to focus on matters of the north? You would know more than me on that count, with ease.

Not just up north either comrade.


Have you read The Lost Revolution yet?

[LeftAtTheCross]

This is quite the bizarre thread.

On the WP and criminality. I don't doubt that in the north during the Troubles and since that there have been criminal elements on the periphery of the WP. It would be almost unusual if this were not the case, given the ghettoised nature of inner city life under the abnormal societal circumstances which exist(ed) there. These working class communities are extremely closely knit. That some elements in those communities engage in petty or more serious crime is not to be excused but it is far from unusual. Any city has such people. That doesn't mean that such people are or were WP members or activists.

On the WP and militarism/terrorism. The WP is quite clearly and categoriclly opposed to both militarism and terrorism. No ambiguity.

On the OIRA. Any remaining genetic links between the WP and the remnants of OIRA are at this stage of the nature of the old boys club. The OIRA ceased military activity 35 years ago. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the WP has actively recruited and rearmed or maintained a military group in the meantime?

Lets's get all of this in context. The WP is a revolutionary socialist political party, of and for the working class. It's leadership and membership are committed to political struggle. It had in the distant past links with militarism and organised crime. Distant past, not present. However it does not have the stain of sectarian murder on it's hands like Sinn Fein has, and it does not have white collar corruption and destruction of society on it's hands like Fianna Fail, both of which parties are in government in the different jurisdictions on this island. So criticism yes, fine, but proportionate criticism please.

I'm not saying that the past is irrelevant, only that the WP is focused on the future and working to build a socialist society here and internationally.

And with that I'm off to Dublin for the ICTU march.

[Socialist Republican]

LeftAtTheCross

On the WP and criminality. I don't doubt that in the north during the Troubles and since that there have been criminal elements on the periphery of the WP.

The 'criminal elements' were not on the fringes of the WP/OIRA – they were ran and organised from the top of both organisations and were central to the party/movements strategy


On the WP and militarism/terrorism. The WP is quite clearly and categoriclly opposed to both militarism and terrorism. No ambiguity.

And that is a welcome move but was not always the case including up until and including the past decade though it begs the question where are all their weapons as they have never decommissioned them. Why do you think they havent done so?



On the OIRA. Any remaining genetic links between the WP and the remnants of OIRA are at this stage of the nature of the old boys club. The OIRA ceased military activity 35 years ago. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the WP has actively recruited and rearmed or maintained a military group in the meantime?

While the OIRA may have ceased activities against the British army/RUC 35 years ago, they did not cease armed activity. OIRA/Group B continued to be pro-active in 'fundraising' activities – armed robberies, extortion, tax scams, counterfeiting and a host of other criminal activities – approved and carried out from the top. Such activities were still ongoing well into this decade


Lets's get all of this in context. The WP is a revolutionary socialist political party, of and for the working class. It's leadership and membership are committed to political struggle. It had in the distant past links with militarism and organised crime. Distant past, not present. However it does not have the stain of sectarian murder on it's hands like Sinn Fein has

Its links with militarism, terrorism and crime are not that distant at all. It does have the stain of sectarian murder on its hands as it acted hand in hand with loyalist death squads and as a pseudo gang in nationalist areas for the British army and RUC who terrorised many nationalist communities throughout the six counties.

[Apjp]

LeftAtTheCross


The 'criminal elements' were not on the fringes of the WP/OIRA – they were ran and organised from the top of both organisations and were central to the party/movements strategy



And that is a welcome move but was not always the case including up until and including the past decade though it begs the question where are all their weapons as they have never decommissioned them. Why do you think they havent done so?



While the OIRA may have ceased activities against the British army/RUC 35 years ago, they did not cease armed activity. OIRA/Group B continued to be pro-active in 'fundraising' activities – armed robberies, extortion, tax scams, counterfeiting and a host of other criminal activities – approved and carried out from the top. Such activities were still ongoing well into this decade



Its links with militarism, terrorism and crime are not that distant at all. It does have the stain of sectarian murder on its hands as it acted hand in hand with loyalist death squads and as a pseudo gang in nationalist areas for the British army and RUC who terrorised many nationalist communities throughout the six counties.

Sorry, but only the CIA and american dept. of state actually believe that anyone in the wp ever forged money-an obvious conspiracy against sean garland that a drunken bowzie could have made more inconspicuous. All elements of Irish society have rowed in behind this man, and I think it is time the counterfeiting accusations against the wp were exposed for the lies they truly are-and I look forward to that imminent day.

[C. Flower]

This is quite the bizarre thread.

On the WP and criminality. I don't doubt that in the north during the Troubles and since that there have been criminal elements on the periphery of the WP. It would be almost unusual if this were not the case, given the ghettoised nature of inner city life under the abnormal societal circumstances which exist(ed) there. These working class communities are extremely closely knit. That some elements in those communities engage in petty or more serious crime is not to be excused but it is far from unusual. Any city has such people. That doesn't mean that such people are or were WP members or activists.

On the WP and militarism/terrorism. The WP is quite clearly and categoriclly opposed to both militarism and terrorism. No ambiguity.

On the OIRA. Any remaining genetic links between the WP and the remnants of OIRA are at this stage of the nature of the old boys club. The OIRA ceased military activity 35 years ago. Is anyone seriously suggesting that the WP has actively recruited and rearmed or maintained a military group in the meantime?

Lets's get all of this in context. The WP is a revolutionary socialist political party, of and for the working class. It's leadership and membership are committed to political struggle. It had in the distant past links with militarism and organised crime. Distant past, not present. However it does not have the stain of sectarian murder on it's hands like Sinn Fein has, and it does not have white collar corruption and destruction of society on it's hands like Fianna Fail, both of which parties are in government in the different jurisdictions on this island. So criticism yes, fine, but proportionate criticism please.

I'm not saying that the past is irrelevant, only that the WP is focused on the future and working to build a socialist society here and internationally.

And with that I'm off to Dublin for the ICTU march.

The thread is a bit odd, I think mainly because it emerged from an off-topic discussion on the United Left Alliance thread.

It suffers from not having an OP to set a clear theme, but the issues are real enough.

Would you like to make a suggestion as to what to do? There seem to me to be two separate issues people are discussing - one was to do with whether or not republican groups can be accepted as non-violent?? at least I think that was it, and the other was the history of the WP.

The way they are tangled together seems to be pure whataboutery, and as Sam Lord says (although I'm not sure if for the same reason) its a very poor thread.

[Hapax]

The 'criminal elements' were not on the fringes of the WP/OIRA – they were ran and organised from the top of both organisations

. . . .

it acted hand in hand with loyalist death squads and as a pseudo gang in nationalist areas for the British army and RUC who terrorised many nationalist communities throughout the six counties.


Are there publicly accessible sources available to support these arguments, SR, or is it information known only to those infamous dogs in the street?


Edit: Apologies, CF. Posted before seeing yours.

[Socialist Republican]

Are there publicly accessible sources available to support these arguments, SR, or is it information known only to those infamous dogs in the street?


Edit: Apologies, CF. Posted before seeing yours.

A good starting point for anyone would be to read the Lost Revolution and follow a lot of the sources that it draws upon, which includes most people within the official movement who spoke freely tp the author and have not rejected anything in it

I dont want to be engaging in this type of argument, but when people on the one hand accuse others of this and that, but claim their own movement are something they are not, then it needs to be corrected.

Despite all that the WP done in the past, I have no problme working with them now on issues I wouold agree with them on. However, I am saddened to see that some of their people as represented here seem to have a problem with people who may come from a republican background regardless of the similarity of their views.

Despite what people might think, I am not trying to have a go at the WP, but glossing over their history at the same time as putting others down, must be corrected as I said. It is in the past, just as the armed struggle of the IRA is in the past but we need to be honest about all this stuff. The nonsense of Adams insisting he was never in the RA is another such that should be dealt with if people are to have any credibility

[Fraxinus]

A good starting point for anyone would be to read the Lost Revolution and follow a lot of the sources that it draws upon, which includes most people within the official movement who spoke freely tp the author and have not rejected anything in it

I dont want to be engaging in this type of argument, but when people on the one hand accuse others of this and that, but claim their own movement are something they are not, then it needs to be corrected.

Despite all that the WP done in the past, I have no problme working with them now on issues I wouold agree with them on. However, I am saddened to see that some of their people as represented here seem to have a problem with people who may come from a republican background regardless of the similarity of their views.

Despite what people might think, I am not trying to have a go at the WP, but glossing over their history at the same time as putting others down, must be corrected as I said. It is in the past, just as the armed struggle of the IRA is in the past but we need to be honest about all this stuff. The nonsense of Adams insisting he was never in the RA is another such that should be dealt with if people are to have any credibility

Is the Lost Revolution to the WP the same as A Secret History of the IRA is to PSF?

[C. Flower]

Is the Lost Revolution to the WP the same as A Secret History of the IRA is to PSF?


I haven't read Secret History, but I'd strongly recommend "The Lost Revolution". It isn't a hatchet job of anyone.

[Socialist Republican]

Is the Lost Revolution to the WP the same as A Secret History of the IRA is to PSF?

Not at all. The WP, in fairness to them, were quite open with teh author and were happy with the book. It si most definitely a great read

[Hapax]

A good starting point for anyone would be to read the Lost Revolution and follow a lot of the sources that it draws upon, which includes most people within the official movement who spoke freely tp the author and have not rejected anything in it


That's the one by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar? I'll get myself a copy. Thanks!

[LeftAtTheCross]

A good starting point for anyone would be to read the Lost Revolution and follow a lot of the sources that it draws upon, which includes most people within the official movement who spoke freely tp the author and have not rejected anything in it

I'd agree with that. It's an open assessment of the history of a movement that moved from the shadows of republican militarism into the more open arena of political activism. As you've said, it does cover the issues surrounding Group-B/OIRA in a warts-and-all manner.



I dont want to be engaging in this type of argument, but when people on the one hand accuse others of this and that, but claim their own movement are something they are not, then it needs to be corrected.

I accept your bona fides on that SR, you're not engaging in gutter-level argument here by any means.



Despite all that the WP done in the past, I have no problme working with them now on issues I wouold agree with them on. However, I am saddened to see that some of their people as represented here seem to have a problem with people who may come from a republican background regardless of the similarity of their views.

I don't want to mix up the Eirigi discussion here again with this sub-thread so can I just not comment on that if it's ok, if only to say that Irish republicanism is a broad church and the WP's position within that is clearly non-mainstream in that sense, from a historical and ideological perspective there is clear water and indeed obviously some hostility between the various positions.

As someone who personally is an anti-nationalist the closest I come to embracing Irish Republicanism is via the WP position, although I do appreciate that there are people within the Republican Socialist tradition (within and without the WP) who have a more mainstream Left-nationalist position personally and organisationally.

That there was blood spilt over any of this in the past is regrettable from my perspective, although I do appreciate that it's easy to say that from the position of someone who recently joined the WP, and there will be people on both sides of the actual and theoretical disputes who would have difficulty reconciling their actions and historcial positions.

As you have said, working together on common issues is the way forwards into the future. There should be more that unites us than divides us.



Despite what people might think, I am not trying to have a go at the WP, but glossing over their history at the same time as putting others down, must be corrected as I said. It is in the past, just as the armed struggle of the IRA is in the past but we need to be honest about all this stuff. The nonsense of Adams insisting he was never in the RA is another such that should be dealt with if people are to have any credibility

Yes, I think you're correct in saying that actually. Honesty and transparency is required.

All I'll say as a recent person into the WP is that I have seen no evidence of support for, or material benefit from, any shady fundraising. I do believe that the leadership of the WP has a revolutionary morality which in the past could have justified such things in the historical and material circumstances, if in fact they did occur. However, from my direct experience with this group of people I have to say that such a strategy is clearly in the past. As far as I am concerned the WP has no problems in claiming the high ground at this stage. I'm loathe to use a word like "morality" but what I mean is that revolutionary ethics require honest actions if the WP is to offer an analysis that can be credible, and I only see evidence of that.

It is on that basis that I and other new members are attracted to the WP's analysis and political strategy. The emphasis is on a socialism. The WP is the only Left party in my opinion which is untainted by the political cul-de-sacs of ultra-leftism or left-nationalism (again, emphasis on personal opinion here) and which offers a credible vision and a means of getting there. Yes there is overlap on many issues with others on the left, and that is where co-operation can be and should be achieved.

The WP is not a left-sectarian organisation, and this thread shouldn't have degenerated into such, despite legitimate differences in political positions and strategies.

[Cáthasaigh]

The stickies were armed enforcers for the British army in nationalist areas. They worked hand in hand with both the British army and the loyalist death squads

Absolutely true, they were also complicit in 26C reactionary violence; most notabley the murder of Seamus Costello the most capable Irish Socialist Republican since James Connolly.


Are you the same Mr. Cathasaigh that wrote a brilliant recent article on Mr. James Connolly in the look left mag? I know of no such weapons, but please enlighten me to my hidden guns.

I am not. The WP's armed narco-crim wing has never decommisioned and their weapons do still appear at opportune times. Perhaps most notabley in recent years was the sticky arms dump found containing an M1 carbine, conveniently found in a Belfast house, that provided De Rossa and co with the prerequesite to form DL (he didn't know there was still an armed wing before that you see.)

[LeftAtTheCross]

Perhaps most notabley in recent years was the sticky arms dump found containing an M1 carbine, conveniently found in a Belfast house, that provided De Rossa and co with the prerequesite to form DL (he didn't know there was still an armed wing before that you see.)

Cáthasaigh,

When you equate the word "recently" with events in the lead up to the WP/DL split in 1992 you are exposing a bitterness that is clearly not diminishing with the passing of time.

[Cáthasaigh]

Cáthasaigh,

When you equate the word "recently" with events in the lead up to the WP/DL split in 1992 you are exposing a bitterness that is clearly not diminishing with the passing of time.

That's one of the few times when sticky guns made the news, when it suited an establishment agenda. They still make the news all the time, in armed robberies and tiger kidnappings but are never mentioned as such. The likes of the Garands are well hid away and it's all Glocks and suchlike now.

What I'm actually exposing is criminal gangsterism, the raison d'etre for the continued existance of the stickies, which has not diminshed with the passing of time. There will always be the complicit or confused such as yourself who try to sugar coat this but your ilk are as self-deluding and counter-revolutionary as an Adamsite or Fianna Fáiler.

[LeftAtTheCross]

That's one of the few times when sticky guns made the news, when it suited an establishment agenda. They still make the news all the time, in armed robberies and tiger kidnappings but are never mentioned as such.

Would you care to provide some specific examples?




What I'm actually exposing is criminal gangsterism, the raison d'etre for the continued existance of the stickies, which has not diminshed with the passing of time. There will always be the complicit or confused such as yourself who try to sugar coat this but your ilk are as self-deluding and counter-revolutionary as an Adamsite or Fianna Fáiler.

Can you provide a timeline of your dealings with the WP? I'm curious to know when it was that your clearly strong views were formed?

[Cáthasaigh]

Would you care to provide some specific examples?

Those convicted of gangsterism under the auspices of the stickies are never charged with membership so statistics are rather hard to come by. There was an incident in Donegal in the last couple of years where the 32CSM attempted to close down a heroin distribution operation only to find that heavily armed stickies from Newry had been summoned as protection by the drug traffickers.



Can you provide a timeline of your dealings with the WP? I'm curious to know when it was that your clearly strong views were formed?

I have no 'dealings' with drug dealers and gangsters.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Those convicted of gangsterism under the auspices of the stickies are never charged with membership so statistics are rather hard to come by. There was an incident in Donegal in the last couple of years where the 32CSM attempted to close down a heroin distribution operation only to find that heavily armed stickies from Newry had been summoned as protection by the drug traffickers.

And you know these people were WP how exactly?



I have no 'dealings' with drug dealers and gangsters.

It was a genuine question. I'll rephrase it then:


"When did you form your negative opinion of the WP?"

Are you willing to answer that as a genuine question, leaving aside the hostility that you usually exhibit here whenever there's any mention of the WP?

[Cáthasaigh]

And you know these people were WP how exactly?

The 32CSM people who issued the statement were quite satisfied as to the Sticky bona fides of the armed heavies who came to protect the heroin traffickers and I'm quite content to take their word for it.




It was a genuine question. I'll rephrase it then:


"When did you form your negative opinion of the WP?"

Are you willing to answer that as a genuine question, leaving aside the hostility that you usually exhibit here whenever there's any mention of the WP?

My opinion of the stickies was formed as I grew up watching them collaborate with the military onslaught against us and as I got older I became aware of individuals involved in the gang; permanently unemployed, gold sovereign ringed types. I have yet to meet a sticky that wasn't a criminal. Any political remnant in the 6 left to form the ORM, what remains is nothing more than an organised crime gang operating with state complicity.

How anyone could be a member or supporter of the criminal gang who murdered the greatest Irish Socialist since Connolly is beyond me.

[Garibaldy]

This cracks me up. Nothing but the empty repetition of baseless smears in the hope that if you tell a lie often enough then people will believe it.

I'm particularly enjoying the idea that an organisation that has literally no policies, no website to promote its supposed ideas, no forum for communicating with the public, and that has expressly declared itself as non-party political is a political entity.

Please carry on.

[LeftAtTheCross]

My opinion of the stickies was formed as I grew up watching them collaborate with the military onslaught against us and as I got older I became aware of individuals involved in the gang; permanently unemployed, gold sovereign ringed types. I have yet to meet a sticky that wasn't a criminal. Any political remnant in the 6 left to form the ORM, what remains is nothing more than an organised crime gang operating with state complicity.

How anyone could be a member or supporter of the criminal gang who murdered the greatest Irish Socialist since Connolly is beyond me.

Cáthasaigh,

First of all thank you for answering openly.

Ok. My own experience of the WP growing up in Dublin is obviously very different to yours.

I do accept that the WP/OIRA in parts of the north could have been a very different organisation (you say it still is and I'm not living there and I don't know the people on the ground in your neck of the woods so I won't comment further). I can only comment that the members in the party leadership that I've met from Belfast don't wear gold sovereign rings and are highly political.

For me the WP is a revolutionary socialist party of and for the working class. it is none of the things you associate with it. The future for the WP, and the present, certainly south of the border in my own direct experience, is being dictated only by the political strand. The militarism and associated degeneration which occured in the past (you say it's on-going but let's park that point of disagreement), as was documented in the Hanley/Millar book, is a historical millstone around the neck of the party of course, that cannot be denied. However, with all the problems facing society now and in the future I am prepared to take the WP at face value and see them as the only party of the working class with a credible political position and with a critical mass which will allow real progress to be made. Warts and all, the WP is heads above the rest of the Left in my opinion.

On Costello. I was 13 when he was killed. For me, and for the generation younger than me, he is a historical figure, nothing more. What he did or could have acheived is an irrelevance. We can't spend our time looking back at past arguments, life is too short for that, and there are other battles to be fought where we should be able to find common cause against the greater class enemies.

[Socialist Republican]

This cracks me up. Nothing but the empty repetition of baseless smears in the hope that if you tell a lie often enough then people will believe it.

I'm particularly enjoying the idea that an organisation that has literally no policies, no website to promote its supposed ideas, no forum for communicating with the public, and that has expressly declared itself as non-party political is a political entity.

Please carry on.

Who is that?

[Cáthasaigh]

Cáthasaigh,

First of all thank you for answering openly.

Ok. My own experience of the WP growing up in Dublin is obviously very different to yours.

I do accept that the WP/OIRA in parts of the north could have been a very different organisation (you say it still is and I'm not living there and I don't know the people on the ground in your neck of the woods so I won't comment further). I can only comment that the members in the party leadership that I've met from Belfast don't wear gold sovereign rings and are highly political.

For me the WP is a revolutionary socialist party of and for the working class. it is none of the things you associate with it. The future for the WP, and the present, certainly south of the border in my own direct experience, is being dictated only by the political strand. The militarism and associated degeneration which occured in the past (you say it's on-going but let's park that point of disagreement), as was documented in the Hanley/Millar book, is a historical millstone around the neck of the party of course, that cannot be denied. However, with all the problems facing society now and in the future I am prepared to take the WP at face value and see them as the only party of the working class with a credible political position and with a critical mass which will allow real progress to be made. Warts and all, the WP is heads above the rest of the Left in my opinion.

On Costello. I was 13 when he was killed. For me, and for the generation younger than me, he is a historical figure, nothing more. What he did or could have acheived is an irrelevance. We can't spend our time looking back at past arguments, life is too short for that, and there are other battles to be fought where we should be able to find common cause against the greater class enemies.

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it. Historically the WP have been a corrupt, counter-revolutionary cul de sac at best and a criminal gang at worst. I see little to inspire any confidence whatsoever that this has changed and will continue to treat them with the same suspicion and distain as I would PSF, Lab, FG or FF.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it. Historically the WP have been a corrupt, counter-revolutionary cul de sac at best and a criminal gang at worst. I see little to inspire any confidence whatsoever that this has changed and will continue to treat them with the same suspicion and distain as I would PSF, Lab, FG or FF.

You're a great man for the cliches, "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it".

There's truth in that statement of course, as in all cliches, but it's a narrow interpretation of history which you're offering and is clearly one which has been coloured by negative personal experience.

If you took off the blinkers you might see things differently.

Cáthasaigh, you and I will have to differ. I hope that someday events will allow you to change your opinion of the Workers' Party for the better.

Let's just leave it at that. I'm not going engage in any further degeneration of this thread.

[Cáthasaigh]

You're a great man for the cliches, "Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it".

There's truth in that statement of course, as in all cliches, but it's a narrow interpretation of history which you're offering and is clearly one which has been coloured by negative personal experience.

If you took off the blinkers you might see things differently.

Cáthasaigh, you and I will have to differ. I hope that someday events will allow you to change your opinion of the Workers' Party for the better.

Let's just leave it at that. I'm not going engage in any further degeneration of this thread.

Here's another cliche for you: 'leopards don't change their spots'. Outline how and when the Stickies stopped being a counter-revolutionary cess pit and I might consider taking you seriously.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Here's another cliche for you: 'leopards don't change their spots'. Outline how and when the Stickies stopped being a counter-revolutionary cess pit and I might consider taking you seriously.

Cáthasaigh,

The WP was never counter-revolutionary to begin with.

There's really no point in continuing this conversation. I'm clearly not going to convince you you're wrong, nor vice versa, and to be honest this type of dialog serves no purpose to anyone else reading the thread.

Let's just park it.

[C. Flower]

Cáthasaigh,

The WP was never counter-revolutionary to begin with.

There's really no point in continuing this conversation. I'm clearly not going to convince you you're wrong, nor vice versa, and to be honest this type of dialog serves no purpose to anyone else reading the thread.

Let's just park it.


I'd be interested to know more about the Workers Party's analysis of the British State.

[Cáthasaigh]

Cáthasaigh,

The WP was never counter-revolutionary to begin with.


A statement like that can't go unchallenged, especially when you are referring to the criminal gang who murdered Costello and collaborated openly with the British occupation of the 6. The Official Movement may well never have been 'counter-revolutionary to begin with' but they certainly had become so by the time they had morphed into the WP. The gang you joined bears little resemblance to the movement Joe McCann belonged to.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I'd be interested to know more about the Workers Party's analysis of the British State.

Cass,

I'll have to pass on commenting on that one as it's not an area of policy that holds much interest for me to be honest.

Perhaps Garibaldy can comment if he sees the question?

[Kev Bar]

http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000231405

A lot of dead would be dancing if this was listened to in its day.


http://www.jstor.org/pss/30098924

[C. Flower]

Cass,

I'll have to pass on commenting on that one as it's not an area of policy that holds much interest for me to be honest.

Perhaps Garibaldy can comment if he sees the question?


I live in hope :)

[Garibaldy]

C Flower,

The WP views the British state in much the same light as it views any other state that serves the interest of capitalism, with the added point of its role within NATO and other imperialist ventures.

If your question is about the north, then the Party position is clear. The divisions among the people of Ireland are what is fundamentally keeping the country divided in this day and age. The republican response is to build the unity of protestant, catholic and dissenter, and class consciousness, to secure a secular, socialist, unitary state on the island of Ireland - a Republic. The focus of some on the British presence to the virtual exclusion of the question of Irish unionists - or sometimes, a focus on Britain and a dismissal of allied to sectarian hatred for unionists - is to misunderstand the nature of the divisions in the modern era.

We used to hear a lot about the irreformability of the state in NI, and we sometimes still do, in spite of what common sense tells us. Our position has been and continues to be for the maximum democratisation of the state (and in the republic as well as NI). As we can see with PFI, cuts, the 11 Plus disaster etc, neither unionism nor nationalism has the answer to the problems of the working class. A local government is forcing the contradictions of unionism and nationalism to the fore. In that process, and in the campaign for integration, lies the chance for an expanded space for progressive politics.

[Garibaldy]

Who is that?

That is the question precisely. I am referring to the group that terms itself the ORM that was held up as a the last political remnant or whatever the phrase was. Showing how seriously we should take the analysis of the WP of the person who said that.

[Cáthasaigh]

That is the question precisely. I am referring to the group that terms itself the ORM that was held up as a the last political remnant or whatever the phrase was. Showing how seriously we should take the analysis of the WP of the person who said that.

The ORM are politically active, particularly in Belfast on the ground at interfaces and in outreach projects with Loyalists. As such they exhibit genuine Republicanism and I have met some of the genuine and respected Republicans involved. It was the decommissioning of weapons held by the ORM that was reported as OIRA decommissioning last year. WP weapons remain unaccounted for.