Economic Treason

[Murra]

It wasn't so long ago that Gilmore accused Cowen of Economic Treason.

Can someone please define 'Economic Treason', and do you think there is indeed a case to be made for 'Economic Treason' now, i.e if somebody were to walk into a Garda station in the morning....?

[TotalMayhem]

do you think there is indeed a case to be made for 'Economic Treason'

Imteresting article (http://www.brucearnold.ie/files/deal-between.html) on Eamon's accusation by Bruce Arnold of the Independent:


Treason is an old-fashioned concept, no longer a crime in Ireland. You cannot be indicted for treason

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I wonder though whether the Offences against the State Act could be used? And if Treason is still on the statute books then its still an indictable offence.

Because I've seen the term 'economic terrorism' being used and I wonder whether deliberate destruction or malfeasance with public resources could be considered an act of terrorism against the state?

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

'Article 39 of the Constitution of Ireland (adopted in 1937) states that "treason shall consist only in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State, or attempting by force of arms or other violent means to overthrow the organs of government established by the Constitution, or taking part or being concerned in or inciting or conspiring with any person to make or to take part or be concerned in any such attempt."

It looks to me (not a qualified lawyer and not even an 'evening barrister') that a charge would rest on whether violent means could include conspiracy to remove state resources and thereby cause violence to those to whom the resource is denied?

Love to get the view of a legal bod on that...

On the Offences Against the State Act there are some surprising powers. The Minister for Justice can order 'detention of persons dangerous to state security' which would include many of the names mentioned on forum threads here alone and quite possibly half the cabinet.

'The act also criminalises obstruction of the President or government, secret societies in the police or army and unauthorised demonstrations in the vicinity of the Irish Parliament'

I like that bit about secret societies in the police or army. Don't know about the army but I'd say there's more than one Opus Dei bod in the Gardai who could suddenly lose job and pension if OD were careless with a membership list some day. But thats another bucket of fryable fish for another day.

An incoming Minister for Justice could order the detention of persons the Minister considers dangerous to state security. I'd say Fianna Fail leadership have more than demonstrated their talent in this direction wouldn't you?

[Andrew49]

Astonishing moment on Prime Time - equal if not surpassing Michael O'Brien's intervention post Ryan Report. Pat Rabitte shows his anger.

[Hapax]

Astonishing moment on Prime Time - equal if not surpassing Michael O'Brien's intervention post Ryan Report. Pat Rabitte shows his anger.

Yes, that was striking, and it seemed to be genuine. Very coherent too, despite the evident anger. Any idea who the other 'Pat' was?

[PaddyJoe]

That was something else. I've been watching Pat Rabbitte for years and I've never seen him lose it like that. I hope that every FF minister gets a similar roasting every time they show their face:)

[Apjp]

Well, lets step back for a minute. Firstly, outside of this, the next government could legally remove all state pensions for incompetent politicians under article 43.2(or 42.3??) of the constitution where it states the common good of the people must prevail in all instances. Surely the common good is saving money rather than spending it on people who never contributed in any respect to society, save through over spending on capital projects. just remove every single perk, and penny from them and put them on 230 a week and cheese for their tea, see how they like it.

As far as actually prosecuting them, see the treason act of 1939. It has mostly to do with executing persons who declare war on the state, or any of their persons north or south. If it could be proved that FF did cohort with bankers to connive the guarantee perhaps there is a case for something along the lines of indirectly declaring economic war on the people, and failure to ensure the upholding of the common good before minority interests. We know about cowen's kitchen cabinet, lenihan's repaying of gambling bondholders who lost, we also know about the fact that merrill lynch were paid four million to come up with advice on the banking crisis from september 25th-29th on a days notice, and they said DONT ******* DO IT!!!! on the bailout. So, surely that in itself shows guilt of contributory negligence, gross incompetence and a breach of people'e constitutional and civil rights??? they acted against advice given to them by experts-the only logical answer was that it was in their own interests. even honohan said they had too huge of a bailout before he was made governor.

[TotalMayhem]

Any idea who the other 'Pat' was?

Pat Carey, Minister for Community, Equality & Gaeltacht Affairs

[PaddyJoe]

Yes, that was striking, and it seemed to be genuine. Very coherent too, despite the evident anger. Any idea who the other 'Pat' was?

Pat Carey, former FF chief whip and now Minister for the Gaeltacht and a few other inconsequential things. Funny how it doesn't really matter what their job titles are any more..
Notice the American ex-IMF guy with the awful fixed grin on his face at the end. He wasn't expecting that:D

[Apjp]

That was something else. I've been watching Pat Rabbitte for years and I've never seen him lose it like that. I hope that every FF minister gets a similar roasting every time they show their face:)

aw wish id seen it.. here pat is most probably the next minister for justice-so there you go on the minister detaining people dangerous to state security-FINANCIAL SECURITY!!!!!!!!!

[yehbut_nobut]

Any chance of someone here putting it up on youtube? (the knockout by Pat Rabbite, I mean.)

[whydontwe]

Well, lets step back for a minute. Firstly, outside of this, the next government could legally remove all state pensions for incompetent politicians under article 43.2(or 42.3??) of the constitution where it states the common good of the people must prevail in all instances. Surely the common good is saving money rather than spending it on people who never contributed in any respect to society, save through over spending on capital projects. just remove every single perk, and penny from them and put them on 230 a week and cheese for their tea, see how they like it.

As far as actually prosecuting them, see the treason act of 1939. It has mostly to do with executing persons who declare war on the state, or any of their persons north or south. If it could be proved that FF did cohort with bankers to connive the guarantee perhaps there is a case for something along the lines of indirectly declaring economic war on the people, and failure to ensure the upholding of the common good before minority interests. We know about cowen's kitchen cabinet, lenihan's repaying of gambling bondholders who lost, we also know about the fact that merrill lynch were paid four million to come up with advice on the banking crisis from september 25th-29th on a days notice, and they said DONT ******* DO IT!!!! on the bailout. So, surely that in itself shows guilt of contributory negligence, gross incompetence and a breach of people'e constitutional and civil rights??? they acted against advice given to them by experts-the only logical answer was that it was in their own interests. even honohan said they had too huge of a bailout before he was made governor.

Alas Apjp....the constitution here is a joke! The constitution (ancient as it is)serves only to protect and enrich the powerful and connected. Any modern constitution...well read and implemented would serve the ordinary 'people' first...above all...not so? Does the present/past legislature and courts...give any one reason to believe that the constitution is pro-bono??
Simple example: A man is sent to jail for littering....though it's provable he did not himself litter! Conversely...a solicitor owes multi millions from fraudulant activity...and can 'holiday' abroad for years and escape 'justice'....??
Judges can...effectively...do what they want...they are allowed (by the govt) to 'interpret' the law...hence the ancient expression..."the law is an ass" !!
Revolutions were born from such idiocies and inequalities....but this is Ireland...we only revolt against foreigners...even though our own persecute us more than them!!

[PaddyJoe]

Any chance of someone here putting it up on youtube? (the knockout by Pat Rabbite, I mean.)

On YouTube now:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx4E5tq1Bo&feature=youtu.be

[yehbut_nobut]

On YouTube now:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx4E5tq1Bo&feature=youtu.be


That was quick! thanks, well done!

[Fraxinus]

That Offences Against the State Act is soley to protect the parasites in Leinster House and allows the power crazed Guards of Shame to exercise their egos on the citizenary.

The Guards are complicit in the treason that's happening.