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antiestablishmentarian
10-11-2010, 11:19 PM
Just thought I'd ask the question, who here thinks the red poppy should be worn tomorrow to commemorate Armistice Day? Personally, I won't be, I consider the poppy to be symbol of the hypocritical British Establishment, happy to cry crocodile tears over the senseless deaths of millions who fell like cattle in Flanders, while denying sufficient funding to provide decent care for the poor dupes who lost limbs or were horribly injured in some other way upholding British Imperialism in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. If I can get my hands on one, I'll wear a white poppy, which commemorates all the victims of war, and I'd urge anyone else here to wear one if they consider wearing one.

Ah Well
10-11-2010, 11:20 PM
Just thought I'd ask the question, who here thinks the red poppy should be worn tomorrow to commemorate Armistice Day? Personally, I won't be, I consider the poppy to be symbol of the hypocritical British Establishment, happy to cry crocodile tears over the senseless deaths of millions who fell like cattle in Flanders, while denying sufficient funding to provide decent care for the poor dupes who lost limbs or were horribly injured in some other way upholding British Imperialism in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. If I can get my hands on one, I'll wear a white poppy, which commemorates all the victims of war, and I'd urge anyone else here to wear one if they consider wearing one.

Plenty more to be worrying about besides poppies at the mo tbh ....

Sorry might be not the ideal reply but just being honest ;)

C. Flower
10-11-2010, 11:33 PM
They idealise war. No thanks.

antiestablishmentarian
10-11-2010, 11:35 PM
They idealise war. No thanks.

Eh...The White Poppy idealises war??

Sidewinder
10-11-2010, 11:56 PM
The fact that 90 years after so-called Independence the country is still riddled with Empire-worshipping self-loathing loons, who dominate the media and what passes for public discourse here, is probably the most fundamental reason why the pseudoRepublic no longer has any control over its own finances and destiny.

Too many barbarians inside the gate all these decades desperate and eager to undermine Ireland from within.

Lapsedmethodist
11-11-2010, 12:07 AM
The fact that 90 years after so-called Independence the country is still riddled with Empire-worshipping self-loathing loons, who dominate the media and what passes for public discourse here, is probably the most fundamental reason why the pseudoRepublic no longer has any control over its own finances and destiny.

Too many barbarians inside the gate all these decades desperate and eager to undermine Ireland from within.

All those German lessons going to waste, eh Sidewinder ?

Design for Life
11-11-2010, 04:32 AM
Does the Royal British Legion have someone permanently in all TV stations that forces the poppy upon anyone that goes on screen?

Nah I'm not into this stuff. I'm very much for war and against troops :rolleyes:

Cáthasaigh
11-11-2010, 10:10 AM
All those German lessons going to waste, eh Sidewinder ?

What will the excuse be when the last of the WW2 veterans are dead? Their numbers should be fairly sparse by now and it wouldn't take a significant proportion of the rbl budget to 'care' for them.

The reality is that the overwhelming majority of rbl funds go towards the participants in all those dodgy post WW2 conflicts that Britain was involved and the bulk of that goes towards sustaining their neo-imperialist adventures in Afghanistan. Paper poppies for opium poppies.

No thanks, you can stick both up your Khyber.

Andrew49
11-11-2010, 10:52 AM
Just thought I'd ask the question, who here thinks the red poppy should be worn tomorrow to commemorate Armistice Day? Personally, I won't be, I consider the poppy to be symbol of the hypocritical British Establishment, happy to cry crocodile tears over the senseless deaths of millions who fell like cattle in Flanders, while denying sufficient funding to provide decent care for the poor dupes who lost limbs or were horribly injured in some other way upholding British Imperialism in places like Iraq and Afghanistan. If I can get my hands on one, I'll wear a white poppy, which commemorates all the victims of war, and I'd urge anyone else here to wear one if they consider wearing one.

Thatcher expressed 'deep distaste' for the white poppy - confirming that she does like the iron taste of blood. I'll wear the White Poppy alongside my Coal Not Dole sticker - heck I might even wear a donkey jacket.

Lapsedmethodist
11-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Thatcher expressed 'deep distaste' for the white poppy -
confirming that she does like the iron taste of blood. I'll wear the White Poppy alongside my Coal Not Dole sticker - heck I might even wear a donkey jacket.

Come on, Andrew . She's the daughter of a Methodist shopkeeper. Ghastly lower middleclass.

joekilgobinet
05-11-2011, 08:05 PM
Great article by Robert Fisk, the poppy seems to be a fashion accessory these days.
The presenters on TV seem to be wearing it earlier and earlier every year, even before the start of November.
You'd wonder if some of them know why they're wearing it at all.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/blood-spilled-in-war-is-now-a-fashion-accessory-2926554.html

5intheface
05-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Poppies

Annually from the sluice
Of fallen leaves,
The shallow pace of earth provoked
Into floral hysteria.

A black spot
On gaudy crêpe,
Papering over bullet holes.

You drop coins to explode
In a plastic can,
Washing the smell of gas.

Digging trenches deeper
To remember the sacrifice
Of old photographs
And the glory of a cluster bomb.

5intheface
05-11-2011, 09:21 PM
North of the DMZ, it becomes a mini-silly season every year.

Still a week to go and already 3 teenagers have been charged with burning a poppy;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15575615

A woman has forced the chainstore Poundland to reverse their policy of banning political emblems being worn by staff.

http://www.lisburntoday.co.uk/news/local/one_woman_protest_reverses_poundland_poppy_policy_ 1_3213003

She openly admits that she wears it for her friends in Afghanistan.

Today on Sky Sports, the presenter of Soccer Saturday, hurumphed by the rest of the panel, chastised FIFA for banning the England team from wearing poppies on their kit for an upcoming friendly in line with their non-political policy. The host suggested with Dunkirk bravado that the team should wear them anyway and let Johnny Foreigner even try to do something about it.

Pathetic all round as is customary.

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 10:02 PM
I've no problem with poppy wearing, they represent young men who went to their death not totally understanding what for, they left wives, sisters, brothers, and more importantly mothers and fathers behind to fight for what they thought would be a better life for all of us, it was a bitter anf horrible war which many of them didn't understand but they fought bravely and FOR them the poor infrantry soldier and not for the officers who led them to hell, I salute them they fought for us so that we could live a better life and we got it, at their expence and for that we should remember them and for that we should salute them. No matter it seems a Brithish thing alot of Irish men fougth that war and they should be saluted and regongised for that, Many many people are living lives not saluting hitler because of these brave men.

5intheface
05-11-2011, 10:11 PM
I've no problem with poppy wearing, they represent young men who went to their death not totally understanding what for, they left wives, sisters, brothers, and more importantly mothers and fathers behind to fight for what they thought would be a better life for all of us, it was a bitter anf horrible war which many of them didn't understand but they fought bravely and FOR them the poor infrantry soldier and not for the officers who led them to hell, I salute them they fought for us so that we could live a better life and we got it, at their expence and for that we should remember them and for that we should salute them. No matter it seems a Brithish thing alot of Irish men fougth that war and they should be saluted and regongised for that, Many many people are living lives not saluting hitler because of these brave men.

Jinny, sorry but the red poppy is not the symbol you believe it to be.

Have a look at where the money from the appeal goes. You can't just select the conflicts which were noble and declare them to be alligned with the poppy.

There was sod all noble about WWI on either side and even less so dozens of other imperialist and asset grabbing campaigns which we are supposed to bow our heads in reverence to.

If you are horrified by the cruelty of war and wish to recognise the sacrifice of men and women used as pawns, then wear a white poppy, not the one that has become the symbol of this annual lunacy.

sinsin
05-11-2011, 10:14 PM
Perfect symbol for The Empire and the idiots who died for it.
Opium.
They are still at it in Talmud.

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 10:34 PM
Jinny, sorry but the red poppy is not the symbol you believe it to be.

Have a look at where the money from the appeal goes. You can't just select the conflicts which were noble and declare them to be alligned with the poppy.

There was sod all noble about WWI on either side and even less so dozens of other imperialist and asset grabbing campaigns which we are supposed to bow our heads in reverence to.

If you are horrified by the cruelty of war and wish to recognise the sacrifice of men and women used as pawns, then wear a white poppy, not the one that has become the symbol of this annual lunacy.

Do you know what, I will plead ignorance, i will, and i understand where you are coming from but you don't seem to recognise where those young soldiers came from either, you don't seem to recognise the sacrifice they made, you may not agree with the war they faught and that 's your perogitive but my god you must realise the sacrifice they made you really must and that must, really must be recognised,

5intheface
05-11-2011, 10:43 PM
Do you know what, I will plead ignorance, i will, and i understand where you are coming from but you don't seem to recognise where those young soldiers came from either, you don't seem to recognise the sacrifice they made, you may not agree with the war they faught and that 's your perogitive but my god you must realise the sacrifice they made you really must and that must, really must be recognised,


I'm only too aware of their sacrifice, my Great Uncle was killed at Gallipoli in 1915 in an Australian uniform. As to how he wound up there I cannot say but chances are he was after some adventure, one of the many reasons people signed up.

The red poppy is however, not about remembering only the people you choose to single out as deserving of rememberance and it does not recognise non-combatants at all.

If you want to recognise their sacrifice, I ask you again, why wear a red poppy and not a white one?

You talk about how many of them didn't know what they were fighting for, try telling that to those behing the red poppy appeal to see the vitriol you will receive.

I'm sure on the face of it, the British Legion appear to do great work for individuals but the bigger share of their appeal simply allows the Government to avoid paying for the responsibility they deserve.

sinsin
05-11-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm only too aware of their sacrifice, my Great Uncle was killed at Gallipoli in 1915 in an Australian uniform. As to how he wound up there I cannot say but chances are he was after some adventure, one of the many reasons people signed up.

The red poppy is however, not about remembering only the people you choose to single out as deserving of rememberance and it does not recognise non-combatants at all.

If you want to recognise their sacrifice, I ask you again, why wear a red poppy and not a white one?

You talk about how many of them didn't know what they were fighting for, try telling that to those behing the red poppy appeal to see the vitriol you will receive.

I'm sure on the face of it, the British Legion appear to do great work for individuals but the bigger share of their appeal simply allows the Government to avoid paying for the responsibility they deserve.

Cheap beer for UDR men....no thanks.

5intheface
05-11-2011, 10:49 PM
Cheap beer for UDR men....no thanks.

And in Coleraine you can substitute that with UVF.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/exloyalist-convict-gets-top-british-legion-post-14074943.html

Interestingly, it was in Coleraine the poppy was burned which brought about the court case this week.

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 10:50 PM
What ever 5 , the poppy to me and most of people was about recognising the soldiers who fought and lost their lives for us, what was it about for you? Have you traced actually where the money is going? do you really know?

5intheface
05-11-2011, 10:58 PM
What ever 5 , the poppy to me and most of people was about recognising the soldiers who fought and lost their lives for us, what was it about for you? Have you traced actually where the money is going? do you really know? or are you just a god forsaken republican who has wrecked peoples lives and used criminality as a front for an organisaton who is all about forwarding themselves rather than having an actual cause.:( because take it from me the majority of people are sick to death of people like you,

Right, if you are interested in throwing your toys out of the pram with personal abuse when your arguments are exposed then I can just stick you on ignore.

It ain't up to you to decide what a red poppy symbolises, it's up to those who run the appeal and they are very clear about what it is for and where the money goes.

WTF is that 'God forsaken republican' nonsense about? Do you see the irony in talking about wrecking people's lives whilst supporting a campaign raising money for the British army? :D

That really was a pretty pathetic post and frankly I'm getting sick discussing things with you and going to the trouble of setting out my opinion for you to avoid the question and have a hissy fit. Please explain why you do this?

As for majorities, I have only two words to say to that, 'The Sun'

C. Flower
05-11-2011, 11:05 PM
Whether or not people want to wear a poppy should be down to them. The wall to wall carpeting on British tv carries a message that if you don't wear one, you are off message.

The poppy is the emblem of WW1. I thought that the last veteran died last year. It was a terrible war, the first truly industrialised war. Millions of young workers were killed for absolutely nothing but a dispute between a rapidly rising power, Germany, and the established powers. Workers didn't benefit, they died. One of my forebears died, of poison gas.

Their tragic and fruitless loss of life can be remembered by wearing a white poppy.

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 11:18 PM
Right, if you are interested in throwing your toys out of the pram with personal abuse when your arguments are exposed then I can just stick you on ignore.

It ain't up to you to decide what a red poppy symbolises, it's up to those who run the appeal and they are very clear about what it is for and where the money goes.

WTF is that 'God forsaken republican' nonsense about? Do you see the irony in talking about wrecking people's lives whilst supporting a campaign raising money for the British army? :D

That really was a pretty pathetic post and frankly I'm getting sick discussing things with you and going to the trouble of setting out my opinion for you to avoid the question and have a hissy fit. Please explain why you do this?

As for majorities, I have only two words to say to that, 'The Sun'
No you're right it ain't up to me to decide about the Poppy nor is it up to you my repulican whatever. You seem to be denying that many many young irish and english young men lost their lives in two world wars, who knows if they were necessary, I don't think so, but ALL I know is that young men and women lost their lifes or were maimed and I don't know anyother way to recognise their bravery, you of course have other ideas, totally adverse to mine, but then again there is where we differ and your histronics are really not good arguments they are just that, histronics, I believe in a society that respects each other no matter what nationality, religion, creed or colour, I recoginise the poppy for no other reason than the men who died or were injured irrepairablly for us, no other reason, I think the officers and generals who sent them to this death were horrendous and guillty of murder but not the young men, that is why I think they should be recognised.
I couldn't care less whether these young men were English, Irish, Danish, African, or whatever, they were very young men and they DIED so we could live a better life and That should be recognised.

5intheface
05-11-2011, 11:21 PM
No you're right it ain't up to me to decide about the Poppy nor is it up to you my repulican whatever. You seem to be denying that many many young irish and english young men lost their lives in two world wars, who knows if they were necessary, I don't think so, but ALL I know is that young men and women lost their lifes or were maimed and I don't know anyother way to recognise their bravery, you of course have other ideas, totally adverse to mine, but then again there is where we differ and your histronics are really not good arguments they are just that, histronics, I believe in a society that respects each other no matter what nationality, religion, creed or colour, I recoginise the poppy for no other reason than the men who died or were injured irrepairablly for us, no other reason, I think the officers and generals who sent them to this death were horrendous and guillty of murder but not the young men, that is why I think they should be recognised.
I couldn't care less whether these young men were English, Irish, Danish, African, or whatever, they were very young men and they DIED so we could live a better life and That should be recognised.


I'm proud to be a Repulican. :)

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 11:23 PM
I'm proud to be a Repulican. :)

5 I'm sorry I made a reference in a previous post about being criminal and certainly didn't mean you personally, I hope you realise that, I was making reference to the actual republican movement not yourself, apologies if I've offended you.

Lapsedmethodist
05-11-2011, 11:25 PM
I'm proud to be a Repulican. :)

It's the nearest you'll get ! :)

5intheface
05-11-2011, 11:26 PM
5 I'm sorry I made a reference in a previous post about being criminal and certainly didn't mean you personally, I hope you realise that, I was making reference to the actual republican movement not yourself, apologies if I've offended you.

No hard feelings.

5intheface
05-11-2011, 11:28 PM
It's the nearest you'll get ! :)

:)

jinnyjoe
05-11-2011, 11:33 PM
No hard feelings.

Reciprocated.:cool:

Summerday Sands
05-11-2011, 11:37 PM
Posted this before. Robert Fisk talking about the poppy.
Robert Fisk in Belgium - YouTube

sinsin
05-11-2011, 11:41 PM
"Neither King nor Kaiser"
The misguided or the fools....I feel some sympathy.
But as an Irish Republican and a normal human being...Celebrate the British Empire....NEVER.
May the brainwashed idiots RIP.

goatstoe
05-11-2011, 11:56 PM
Posted this before. Robert Fisk talking about the poppy.
Robert Fisk in Belgium - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-0y0qPiB7A&feature=player_embedded)

Excellent points by Fisk. I was looking at the BBC Culture show last night the 5 contributors were all wearing poppies. Germaine Greer looked like she was trying to hide hers.

There is definitely a fascist zeal to the annual November poppyfest on British channels. It must be embarrassing to men like Fisk and other decent English people that there is this annual fascistic poppyfest year after year. It's boring and tedious more than anything at this stage.

If they wore it for one day, no-one would mind, I might even join them seeing as Irishmen died in WW1 too. However to wear it for a whole month? What's wrong with them exactly?

C. Flower
05-11-2011, 11:57 PM
Excellent points by Fisk. I was looking at the BBC Culture show last night the 5 contributors were all wearing poppies. Germaine Greer looked like she was trying to hide hers.

There is definitely a fascist zeal to the annual November poppyfest on British channels. It must be embarrassing to men like Fisk and other decent English people that there is this annual fascistic poppyfest year after year. It's boring and tedious more than anything at this stage.

If they wore it for one day, no-one would mind, I might even join them seeing as Irishmen died in WW1 too. However to wear it for a whole month? What's wrong with them exactly?

It's a militarisation of British Society. When did they start doing this, do you know ? Certainly, it was after the Afghanistan invasion.

PaddyJoe
06-11-2011, 12:07 AM
It's a militarisation of British Society. When did they start doing this, do you know ? Certainly, it was after the Afghanistan invasion.
Certainly in the eighties in the UK the poppy only appeared for about a week on TV. Maybe there's nothing sinister there and it's another exampe of the creeping commercialisation of just about everything?
Christmas used to last for a week; Easter and Halloween for three or four days.
'Poppy day' is hardly immune to the disease.

goatstoe
06-11-2011, 12:08 AM
It's a militarisation of British Society. When did they start doing this, do you know ? Certainly, it was after the Afghanistan invasion.

They've been going into overdrive with this poppyfest thing for about 15 years now I'd say. It's weird and it makes perfectly normal and intelligent people on British TV look like freaks. I don't know when they're going to stop it.

Jon Snow tried to make a point last year by saying he'll wear the poppy for one day only. However his common sense fell on deaf ears, there they are again this November with their poppies for a whole month. They look like eejits on the telly.

It would be a joke but there is obviously a coercive element involved in forcing everyone who appears on British TV channels to wear poppies in November. A Fascist coercion.

C. Flower
06-11-2011, 12:09 AM
Certainly in the eighties in the UK the poppy only appeared for about a week on TV. Maybe there's nothing sinister there and it's another exampe of the creeping commercialisation of just about everything?
Christmas used to last for a week; Easter and Halloween for three or four days.
'Poppy day' is hardly immune to the disease.

I don't know that it is sinister, but there certainly is a Stepford Wives quality about the way every single person on the screen wears one. It used to be commonplace for people to have a principled opposition to it, on peace grounds.

PaddyJoe
06-11-2011, 12:16 AM
The White Poppy concept dates from 1933. Some background here:

The idea for a white poppy arose from the concerns of the wives, mothers, sisters and lovers of the men who had died and been injured in World War One. Increasingly aware of the likelihood of another war, they chose this symbol ‘as a pledge to Peace that war must not happen again’. In 1933 the Women’s Co-operative Guild distributed the first white poppies. The following year the PPU joined with the Guild and later took over the much enlarged distribution as Europe once again headed to war.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white_briefing.html

5intheface
06-11-2011, 12:27 AM
One of the BBC NI's main news anchors, Donna Traynor, was forced under threat of dismissal, to wear a poppy back in the 1990s. This despite hate mail and death threats she had received from the good remembering people of Ulster. It was a shameful episode.

Dissent will not be tolerated.

And here was me thinking that the war was fought so that we would have the freedom to protest. :) I wasn't really.

Apjp
06-11-2011, 01:00 AM
Jinny, sorry but the red poppy is not the symbol you believe it to be.

Have a look at where the money from the appeal goes. You can't just select the conflicts which were noble and declare them to be alligned with the poppy.

There was sod all noble about WWI on either side and even less so dozens of other imperialist and asset grabbing campaigns which we are supposed to bow our heads in reverence to.

If you are horrified by the cruelty of war and wish to recognise the sacrifice of men and women used as pawns, then wear a white poppy, not the one that has become the symbol of this annual lunacy.

The only good thing about ww1 was the russian revolution and 1916

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

Summerday Sands
06-11-2011, 01:05 AM
The only good thing about ww1 was the russian revolution and 1916

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

And the poetry:(

goatstoe
06-11-2011, 01:12 AM
And the poetry:(

Siegfried Sassoon would be turning in his grave at the bollixoligy of the recent, and current fascist-like poppyfests on the British and Northern Irish TV channels.

WTF are they at would be his reaction I'd say. The thing is, it's been going on for so long, so many years that it has just become tiresome. One can only hope some day they'll cop on and grow up. It obviously is reflective of a certain type of insecurity that you'd find within parts - not all - of the English mindset.

Fraxinus
06-11-2011, 01:42 AM
Whether people realise it or not the red poppy is an endorsement of imperialism. People will say "but they fought in WW2 for our freedom"...maybe so but the same bloody symbol supports the troops who terrorised people from Derry to Kenya, Indonesia to Iraq....beautiful freedom those hearty lads brought.

As 5 says, the white one seems to be the most appropriate if one is serious about the horrors of war.

sinsin
06-11-2011, 01:46 AM
Whether people realise it or not the red poppy is an endorsement of imperialism. People will say "but they fought in WW2 for our freedom"...maybe so but the same bloody symbol supports the troops terrorised people from Derry to Kenya, Indonesia to Iraq....beautiful freedom those hearty lads brought.

As 5 says, the white one seems to be the most appropriate if one is serious about the horrors of war.

Probably an SAS man who buggered Ghadaffi with a knife...on a humanitarian mission.

Count Bobulescu
06-11-2011, 03:17 AM
I hate to spoil the fun, but according to the BBC, Red Poppy sales are a US “invention” ten years ahead of UK, and now abandoned here. They have nothing to do with the spilling of blood, but instead, like the White Poppy, (both classified as weeds) signal rebirth. What color is your weed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm)
Red Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy)
White Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29)

Those who promote the wearing of white poppies argue that the red poppy also conveys a specific political standpoint, and point to the divisive nature of the red poppy in Northern Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland), where it is worn mainly by the Unionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionism_in_Ireland) community. They choose the white poppy over the red often because they wish to disassociate themselves from the militaristic aspects of Remembrance Day, rather than the commemoration itself.
The Royal British Legion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_British_Legion) has no official opinion on the wearing of white poppies, stating that it "is a matter of choice, the Legion doesn't have a problem whether you wear a red one or a white one, both or none at all".[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29#cite_note-3) However, opponents of the white poppy argue that the traditional red poppy already encompasses the sentiments claimed for the white poppy, such as "remembering all victims of war", and consider that it undermines the message of remembrance. In the 1930s, when the white poppy was first established, some women lost their jobs for wearing them.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29#cite_note-4) Others[who? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] object that the money raised by the white poppy appeal is diverted from the funds raised for the Royal British Legion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_British_Legion) by the red poppy appeal.
In 1986 British prime minister Margaret Thatcher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher) expressed her "deep distaste" for the symbol.
Trust each side on the Unionist/Republican debate to both get it wrong at the same time by misappropriating the original intent. Well, nothing new in that. The whole Red/White thing is just a manufactured dispute with no basis in reality.

Sam Lord
06-11-2011, 04:33 AM
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n611/boavista1/5654910.jpg

Obama says "My God! Why didn't we think of that?"

Harper says "You can have it ... and my suit .. my underwaer .. whatever you want boss .."

Fraxinus
06-11-2011, 10:16 AM
I hate to spoil the fun, but according to the BBC, Red Poppy sales are a US “invention” ten years ahead of UK, and now abandoned here. They have nothing to do with the spilling of blood, but instead, like the White Poppy, (both classified as weeds) signal rebirth. What color is your weed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm)
Red Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy)
White Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29)
Trust each side on the Unionist/Republican debate to both get it wrong at the same time by misappropriating the original intent. Well, nothing new in that. The whole Red/White thing is just a manufactured dispute with no basis in reality.

Whatever the original intent by the Americans the red poppies fund those who have fought for Britains imperial army. The white poppies do not.

C. Flower
06-11-2011, 10:22 AM
The only good thing about ww1 was the russian revolution and 1916

Sent from my GT-I5500 using Tapatalk

:):)

5intheface
06-11-2011, 10:31 AM
I hate to spoil the fun, but according to the BBC, Red Poppy sales are a US “invention” ten years ahead of UK, and now abandoned here. They have nothing to do with the spilling of blood, but instead, like the White Poppy, (both classified as weeds) signal rebirth. What color is your weed?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6133312.stm)
Red Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_poppy)
White Poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_poppy_%28symbol%29)
Trust each side on the Unionist/Republican debate to both get it wrong at the same time by misappropriating the original intent. Well, nothing new in that. The whole Red/White thing is just a manufactured dispute with no basis in reality.

Of all the organisations in the world to quote with regards to the Red Poppy, the BBC is hardly the most independent. :D

I'm sure there are lots of us who are only too aware of the origin of both poppies and without resorting to wikipedia and the BBC.

It matters not where the practice began, the contention is about how the symbol is used today, who organises the appeal, where the money goes and the hysterical reaction to anyone who objects to the sentiments forced down people's throats.

I'm not sure either about the British Legion's supposed lack of objection to white poppies, maybe they should pass this on to their spokespeople who rave against the WP every year. Indeed, last year in Canada, their Legion wanted to sue the WP campaign.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101104/white-poppy-campaign-101104/

fluffybiscuits
06-11-2011, 01:44 PM
When I hear the Republican and the Unionist battling over a flower and the connotations it carries I cringe. Its the same with the Easter Lily, just ban the whole ****in lot and be done with it. We want to look forward to the future, our past is part of our future but an acknowledgement of it should suffice. There is a lot more going on in the world than worrying about the trivial things like the colour of a flower and who wears it.

Fraxinus
06-11-2011, 01:56 PM
When I hear the Republican and the Unionist battling over a flower and the connotations it carries I cringe. Its the same with the Easter Lily, just ban the whole ****in lot and be done with it. We want to look forward to the future, our past is part of our future but an acknowledgement of it should suffice. There is a lot more going on in the world than worrying about the trivial things like the colour of a flower and who wears it.

Robert Fisk is neither, yet he opposes it. And for good reason. There is a lot going on in the world, a little known war in Afghanistan and the wrapping up of another in Iraq where thousands have died needlessly. The poppy is broadcast all over British media as a constant reminder that those troops who are currently plundering the middle east are fighting a just war...just like all wars that Britain has partaken in.
The fact that you would lump in the Easter Lily with the poppy shows a Sindo-like ignornace that "those lot are as bad as each other". To be honest I'm surprised that you have swallowed the establishment narrative on that one.

fluffybiscuits
06-11-2011, 02:04 PM
Robert Fisk is neither, yet he opposes it. And for good reason. There is a lot going on in the world, a little known war in Afghanistan and the wrapping up of another in Iraq where thousands have died needlessly. The poppy is broadcast all over British media as a constant reminder that those troops who are currently plundering the middle east are fighting a just war...just like all wars that Britain has partaken in.
The fact that you would lump in the Easter Lily with the poppy shows a Sindo-like ignornace that "those lot are as bad as each other". To be honest I'm surprised that you have swallowed the establishment narrative on that one.

Im very much a pacifist, I think people attach too much to a symbol . Republicanism have always said that they are engaged in a war, the British are engaged in a war, I disagree with war full stop. A united Ireland is an ideal I would subscribe to but for me the means so far has in way justified the end. If we focused on putting an emphasis and energies in discussing a solution to a UI we would move. I would therefore just like to point out, its not a position borne out of ignorance but a position borne out of a neutral position. :)

Fraxinus
06-11-2011, 02:33 PM
Im very much a pacifist, I think people attach too much to a symbol . Republicanism have always said that they are engaged in a war, the British are engaged in a war, I disagree with war full stop. A united Ireland is an ideal I would subscribe to but for me the means so far has in way justified the end. If we focused on putting an emphasis and energies in discussing a solution to a UI we would move. I would therefore just like to point out, its not a position borne out of ignorance but a position borne out of a neutral position. :)

There is even a huge difference between how those symbols are projected. The poppy is portrayed as British pride and shoved down people's throats by the media. The easter lily was illegal up until very recently, rarely seen in the media and disowned by the state like all traces of our resistence to imperial rule.

I'm sure there are many in Britain who have nothing to do with Ireland but their country's waring exploits doesn't sit well with them, yet they would be deemed unpatriotic if they voiced opposition. As Fisk alludes to, poppy week or poppy month, has been turned into almost glorification. It is no surprise that it has become more in-your-face over the past ten years with the development of the middle east wars. That glorification and legitimising the war effort is leading many young Britons to needless deaths and a substantial number from this country also.

If you have the same feelings towards republican warfare as you do British then I'm sure you will be supporting the criminalisation of poppy wearing.

fluffybiscuits
06-11-2011, 02:37 PM
There is even a huge difference between how those symbols are projected. The poppy is portrayed as British pride and shoved down people's throats by the media. The easter lily was illegal up until very recently, rarely seen in the media and disowned by the state like all traces of our resistence to imperial rule.

I'm sure there are many in Britain who have nothing to do with Ireland but their country's waring exploits doesn't sit well with them, yet they would be deemed unpatriotic if they voiced opposition. As Fisk alludes to, poppy week or poppy month, has been turned into almost glorification. It is no surprise that it has become more in-your-face over the past ten years with the development of the middle east wars. That glorification and legitimising the war effort is leading many young Britons to needless deaths and a substantial number from this country also.

If you have the same feelings towards republican warfare as you do British then I'm sure you will be supporting the criminalisation of poppy wearing.



I do see it as being a ridiclous state of affairs, its too contentious to be let be legal in a way. People should do one of two things, either see the lily and the poppy as just symbols and put up and shut up or we should just ban them all together.Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I whole heartedly agree with you on the highlighted point by the way. A lot of these young men see it as a way of life , something with an element of excitement to it when all they are , are fodder for the big war machine.

Kid Ryder
06-11-2011, 03:09 PM
The poppy and the lionisation of mass murder that goes along with it is indicative of a deeper malaise in western culture - the death-worship cult that is at the heart of christian belief. The whole value system that places death under certain conditions - 'happy' if you're a traditional christian, 'glorious' or 'noble sacrifice' if you're an imperialist or nationalist one. The loyalists really can't help themselves - not only is the poppy a good excuse for the exercise of triumphalism, it also speaks to a perverted value system encoded deeply into western culture by all that god-bothering. An unthinking British nationalist death-fest that has gone on for far too long. What kind of person grieves ostentatiously in public for a century-dead relative and forces the whole town into playing along with their charade?

Trow
06-11-2011, 03:45 PM
I grow red poppy. Great eye catcher in a Nationalist/Republican area and wonderful conversation piece. :)

I've had all that commentary from passers- by to full blown debates on symbolism mixed with sectarianism and down right ignorance.

It's sacred to me, just like it was to my distant relatives, the Celts.

Another sacred plant, the Lily has it's place in my garden also. I have a variety of them including the Easter White and an Orange one.

The parcel delivery man commented one day ''There's a first.'' when he spotted the Orange Lily in my garden. Fact is my Easter Lily is a first also.

For me, the best comment comes when people just say ''your garden is beautiful.'' Without mention of anything connected to symbolisms.

fluffybiscuits
06-11-2011, 03:49 PM
I grow red poppy. Great eye catcher in a Nationalist/Republican area and wonderful conversation piece. :)

I've had all that commentary from passers- by to full blown debates on symbolism mixed with sectarianism and down right ignorance.

It's sacred to me, just like it was to my distant relatives, the Celts.

Another sacred plant, the Lily has it's place in my garden also. I have a variety of them including the Easter White and an Orange one.

The parcel delivery man commented one day ''There's a first.'' when he spotted the Orange Lily in my garden. Fact is my Easter Lily is a first also.

For me, the best comment comes when people just say ''your garden is beautiful.'' Without mention of anything connected to symbolisms.

*like*

Wonderful metaphor to use :)

Holly
06-11-2011, 03:52 PM
Only the most hardened mean-spirited creatures would begrudge the respectful remembrance of the fallen, whether friend or foe. Failed and bankrupt politicians start wars and it is the ordinary who suffer. Wearing a poppy is our way of honoring all those Irishmen who were struck down in their prime. Shamefully, our government airbrushed them from the history books until very recently. I remember, some while back, when I was still a teenager, I was wearing a poppy one Sunday morning in Dublin's Marlborough Street when I was approached by an elderly man who, in a flat Dublin accent, said to me, "They told us we should wear the poppy this year." Genuinely puzzled, I looked at him and asked, "Who told you that?" "The Legion", he replied. "They can say what they like. No one is going to stop me wearing a poppy", I stated. He smiled and nodded approval.
If we don't remember our fallen, who will?

Ich hatt einen Kameraden - YouTube

5intheface
06-11-2011, 04:07 PM
Only the most hardened mean-spirited creatures would begrudge the respectful remembrance of the fallen, whether friend or foe.

I agree entirely.

Shame that you feel this has to be done with a symbol which has become a emblem of unquestioning support for miltary action in any theatre. Nothing respectful about shoving it down people's throats now is there?

Holly
06-11-2011, 04:09 PM
I agree entirely.

Shame that you feel this has to be done with a symbol which has become a emblem of unquestioning support for miltary action in any theatre. Nothing respectful about shoving it down people's throats now is there?

Nor intimidating people to stop wearing a poppy either.

5intheface
06-11-2011, 04:11 PM
Nor intimidating people to stop wearing a poppy either.

100% agree, just because I don't like the baggage goes with it is no reason to stop those who agree with supporting the British military.

Would be nice if media figures were afforded the same choice not to join in the madness.

The Lady Di effect.

Holly
06-11-2011, 04:15 PM
100% agree, just because I don't like the baggage goes with it ...

Baggage is all in the mind, 5intheface.

Kid Ryder
06-11-2011, 04:20 PM
Do the Taliban have an annual death-cult ritual? If they do, then I say let it be promoted as assiduously as the Great British Annual Patriotic Death Cult because they'd be identical in both intent and validity.

joekilgobinet
06-11-2011, 04:44 PM
100% agree, just because I don't like the baggage goes with it is no reason to stop those who agree with supporting the British military.

Would be nice if media figures were afforded the same choice not to join in the madness.

The Lady Di effect.

Its only right that the thousands of Irishmen who fought,died or were wounded and maimed in the Great War are commemorated, Also the veterans of World War 2.
But I thought Remembrance Day was the Sunday nearest Nov 11, and not a reason for wearing a poppy from the last week of Oct thru til the end of Nov.

Kid Ryder
06-11-2011, 04:53 PM
Its only right that the thousands of Irishmen who fought,died or were wounded and maimed in the Great War are commemorated, Also the veterans of World War 2.

But you're not doing that by wearing the poppy. Instead you're celebrating the power and the privileges of those who sent them to their deaths. A celebration of the state's (in this case the British one) capacity for mass murder. A proper commemoration of war dead should include a repudiation of militarism, but you'll never get that from the poppy fetishists.

Why no mention of cornflowers (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleuet_de_France)? Are the French imperial war dead of less value to the devotees of this particular death cult?

Trow
06-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Why no mention of cornflowers (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleuet_de_France)? Are the French imperial war dead of less value to the devotees of this particular death cult?

Or the Edelweiss.....http://www.vincelewis.net/edelweiss.html

Holly
06-11-2011, 05:24 PM
... Are the French imperial war dead of less value to the devotees of this particular death cult?

Clearly some of us do not share your opinion regarding the honoring of the fallen in battle, KR, and my posting of Ich hatt einen Kameraden makes the point that the Germans, as well as the French, in common with all countries do hold a certain regard for their military dead. It is the least we who come after them can do.

Kid Ryder
06-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Clearly some of us do not share your opinion regarding the honoring of the fallen in battle, KR, and my posting of Ich hatt einen Kameraden makes the point that the Germans, as well as the French, in common with all countries do hold a certain regard for their military dead. It is the least we who come after them can do.

'...the fallen in battle'??

Sounds like a pious ejaculation from a death-cult worshipper to me.:rolleyes:

Lapsedmethodist
06-11-2011, 10:47 PM
Do the Taliban have an annual death-cult ritual? If they do, then I say let it be promoted as assiduously as the Great British Annual Patriotic Death Cult because they'd be identical in both intent and validity.

Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright ! :rolleyes:

Lapsedmethodist
06-11-2011, 10:55 PM
It's a militarisation of British Society. When did they start doing this, do you know ? Certainly, it was after the Afghanistan invasion.

Wrong again. It's not about the poppy. It's about Remembrance Sunday when I went as a nipper and stood at the War Memorial with my mum and my mate. My mate wore his fathers medals because his father was killed in North Africa as were two of my uncles. And my mum held his hand.

Lá an Lúbáin
07-11-2011, 12:11 AM
Wearing a poppy is our way of honoring all those Irishmen who were struck down in their prime.

Less of the first person plural there please. You're not Mother Ireland.

It's not my way or the way of most Irish people to remember those that died in foreign wars.

It is used to justify present day conflicts too.

Kid Ryder
07-11-2011, 12:26 AM
Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrright ! :rolleyes:

Let's hear your arguments against the putative 'commemoration of the glorious fallen Taliban fighters'...

or

What is it about the Great British Annual Patriotic Death Cult that makes it so superior to, say, similar rituals observed by Islamists?

fluffybiscuits
07-11-2011, 10:23 AM
I think this is a great example of the power of symbolism and the power that is attached to it. Humans tend to attach meanings to all sorts of symbols, I suppose in a way it lets people know what frame of mind they are in. If were to just look upon these symbols though as just symbols, not objects and remove ourselves from the offence and hurt and anger they cause to some. Would urge you all to read Trows post above about the garden, puts it all into context nicely IMO :)...

Holly
07-11-2011, 10:41 AM
Less of the first person plural there please. You're not Mother Ireland.

It's not my way or the way of most Irish people to remember those that died in foreign wars. ...

Less of the first person singular and third person plural which suggests you represent the Irish people, LaL.
It is true, at the same time, that the Free State government and its successors have, until very recently, ignored the deaths of so many thousands of Irishmen and boys who died in uniform. Among them was John Condon, from Waterford City, in Ireland, who was just 13 years old when he trained for military service in Clonmel. Having tricked people into believing he was 18 years old, he died in Belgium and was buried at Ypres.

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/johncondon_memorial.jpg
John Condon the youngest British soldier to die in WWI R.I.P.

Fraxinus
07-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Less of the first person singular and third person plural which suggests you represent the Irish people, LaL.
It is true, at the same time, that the Free State government and its successors have, until very recently, ignored the deaths of so many thousands of Irishmen and boys who died in uniform. Among them was John Condon, from Waterford City, in Ireland, who was just 13 years old when he trained for military service in Clonmel. Having tricked people into believing he was 18 years old, he died in Belgium and was buried at Ypres.

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/johncondon_memorial.jpg
John Condon the youngest British soldier to die in WWI R.I.P.

Welcome back Holly. But I'm on Lá's side here. There are other avenues of commemoration besides the garish St. Olivers Army's red poppy ritual.

antiestablishmentarian
07-11-2011, 12:14 PM
To my mind there are two major reasons not to wear a poppy. The first is that it is the establishment's symbol of an imperialist conflict fought for control of colonies and control of resource supplies, WW1 was a very cynical and nasty conflict about money. Indeed members of the very same British army were responsible for killing innocent civilians here in Ireland, during 1916 and also the Bachelor's Walk massacre in 1914. Secondly, the money is going to the Royal Legion to support veterans of dirty wars such as Falklands (where there were documented examples of British soldiers mutilating corpses for trophies) and of course the Troubles. If you sincerely want to remember those who died in WW!, I would suggest hold a minute's silence on Friday at 11am rather than give money for a plastic trinket that is going to help pay the retirement bills of people involved in massacres or illegal wars/occupations.

Holly
07-11-2011, 12:52 PM
To my mind there are two major reasons not to wear a poppy. The first is that it is the establishment's symbol of an imperialist conflict fought for control of colonies and control of resource supplies, WW1 was a very cynical and nasty conflict about money.

Do not attribute the commemoration of the fallen in battle as the approval of war.


Secondly, the money is going to the Royal Legion to support veterans ...

Do not begrudge aid to the maimed and crippled. It is an act of charity

Iolo
07-11-2011, 12:55 PM
The Quakers tend to wear a white poppy. Recalling the feathers the bullygirls dished out back in '14 and '15 it covers the sufferings of all. For myself, however, I believe those who fight for imperialism should be paid compensation by those who sent them, and I've lost people I actually knew and liked when little. They'd have told them where to put their bloody poppies!

5intheface
07-11-2011, 06:08 PM
There is no end to this idiocy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15625350

Awful lot of politicians getting their briefs in a twist over such a 'non-political' symbol.

Could I also add that up until a couple of years ago, I could count the number of people I saw wearing poppies (real life as opposed to TV) on the fingers of one hand.

fluffybiscuits
07-11-2011, 08:10 PM
There is no end to this idiocy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15625350

Awful lot of politicians getting their briefs in a twist over such a 'non-political' symbol.

Could I also add that up until a couple of years ago, I could count the number of people I saw wearing poppies (real life as opposed to TV) on the fingers of one hand.


Well as I said if people stopped attaching so much sentimentality to a symbol it would cut down on the hassle. Schools are a level playing field so I have no issue with banning such a thing if it is going to cause an issue. This whole lark with the poppy is akin to the furore over people wearing Celtic or Rangers jerseys, its just asking for trouble. Ban the lot if they cant behave like adults

Count Bobulescu
08-11-2011, 04:15 AM
This poppy controversy seems to me to be an entirely manufactured storm in a teacup fed by the tribal rivalries of the crazy Unionists, and the equally crazy Republicans in N.I. Neither of whom just can’t let go of the past. The rest of the world has long ago moved on. As Churchill, (not my favorite pol), correctly observed, “World Wars come, and World Wars go, but nothing much changes mid the dreary spires and steeples of Fermanagh South Tyrone”.

On BBC World News Monday night, I’d say it was about 50/50 Poppy/No Poppy for the in studio people. Certainly the primary presenter at midnight GMT, Mike Embley was NOT wearing a poppy. Even worse, they were leading with the conviction of Michael Jackson’s doctor. Grow up, people!!!

Lapsedmethodist
08-11-2011, 01:16 PM
WW1 was a very cynical and nasty conflict about money.

WW1 was an extension of the Franco - Prussian war .

Kev Bar
08-11-2011, 01:23 PM
Lapsed - how did I guess you'd pop up on the poppy?
All would be better off lying down with it.
Give me sweet dreams over entrenched attitude!

ang
08-11-2011, 05:42 PM
FIFA say NO to poppy:-


Fifa have rejected the Football Association's requests for the England team to wear poppies on their shirts during Saturday's game against Spain.

The FA had asked for permission to wear poppies to support Remembrance Day.

But Fifa say "such initiatives would open the door to similar initiatives from all over the world, jeopardising the neutrality of football".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15643295.stm

Iolo
08-11-2011, 05:54 PM
WW1 was an extension of the Franco - Prussian war .

The odd country seemed to be involved in WW1 that managed to miss out on that one, surely?

fluffybiscuits
08-11-2011, 10:07 PM
FIFA say NO to poppy:-



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15643295.stm


I dont blame them. Football is certainly politicised enough without all of this being dragged into it. All we have to do is to look at Rangers and Celtic to see what the politicisation of football can do to the game.

Count Bobulescu
09-11-2011, 05:10 AM
Mike Embley forgot his poppy again tonight.

ang
09-11-2011, 05:36 AM
Jon Snow thinks it's all "poppy fascism":-


News presenter Jon Snow has refused to bow to viewer demands for him to wear a poppy, branding it ‘poppy fascism’.
The Channel 4 host retorted ‘On yer bike’ and ‘Hitler lost the war’ after he was criticised for not wearing the emblem.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326063/Jon-Snow-poppy-fascism-row-C4-News-host-refuses-surrender.html#ixzz1dBS0QU3s

Holly
09-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Jon Snow thinks it's all "poppy fascism":-

Nobody messes with Jon Snow's wardrobe.

http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j480/rogerduke1/JonSnow.jpg

ang
09-11-2011, 05:45 PM
Fifa will now allow the poppy to be worn on black armbands this weekend after pleas from David Cameron and Prince William.

Summerday Sands
09-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Fifa will now allow the poppy to be worn on black armbands this weekend after pleas from David Cameron and Prince William.

Ah good ol' David Cameron. He wasn't too concerned with national sensitivites when he wore the poppy in China last year:).

C. Flower
09-11-2011, 07:15 PM
Jon Snow thinks it's all "poppy fascism":-

I agree with him, militaristic bullying is what it is.

Kev Bar
09-11-2011, 08:19 PM
Poppycock.

Lá an Lúbáin
09-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Less of the first person singular and third person plural which suggests you represent the Irish people,

Point 1: I was speaking for myself and the first person singular is entirely correct

Point 2: I didn't use the third person plural and was not attempting nor suggesting to speak for anybody else.

Point 3: Most Irish people don't wear poppies. A fact you continue to ignore. So your use of 'our' was completely inappropriate. Unlike myself, you attempted to speak for everybody in relation to the poppy.

Griska
09-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Such nonsense.
I wonder would FIFA allow Ireland to wear Easter Lillies?

eamo
09-11-2011, 09:03 PM
The debate over the Poppy seems to me to overlook the fact that different cultures are different cultures because they are different. We don't wear the Poppy, those from a different tradition do. Including a different Irish tradition. It's a tradition that those of us who aspire to a politically united island better get used to 'caus it ai'nt going away, not that I think it going away would be a good thing. It would not. Any united Ireland is going to be a lot more "British" than the present southern state, so get over the poppy lads and lasses, or else take care what you wish for. The poppy is worn for almost as many different reasons as there are people who wear it. From the raving militarist to the sentimental granny. Those who get upset, not so much here, but some people do really get upset at the sight of a poppy being worn, remind me of the people who wont watch TG4, RTE, 3, or any other Irish station but watch a British channel and then get offended by some usually imagined slight. It is our neighbors way of honoring and remembering their war dead, let them sort out where and when and for how long it should be worn. It is as little of our business as us commemorating 1916 is of theirs.

Holly
09-11-2011, 09:08 PM
Point 1: I was speaking for myself and the first person singular is entirely correct

Point 2: I didn't use the third person plural and was not attempting nor suggesting to speak for anybody else.

Point 3: Most Irish people don't wear poppies. A fact you continue to ignore. So your use of 'our' was completely inappropriate. Unlike myself, you attempted to speak for everybody in relation to the poppy.

"our" refers to myself and those decent people who think the same, as you well know, LaL.

Griska
09-11-2011, 09:10 PM
The debate over the Poppy seems to me to overlook the fact that different cultures are different cultures because they are different. We don't wear the Poppy, those from a different tradition do. Including a different Irish tradition. It's a tradition that those of us who aspire to a politically united island better get used to 'caus it ai'nt going away, not that I think it going away would be a good thing. It would not. Any united Ireland is going to be a lot more "British" than the present southern state, so get over the poppy lads and lasses, or else take care what you wish for. The poppy is worn for almost as many different reasons as there are people who wear it. From the raving militarist to the sentimental granny. Those who get upset, not so much here, but some people do really get upset at the site of a poppy being worn, remind me of the people who wont watch TG4, RTE, 3, or any other Irish station but watch a British channel and then get offended by some usually imagined slight. It is our neighbors way of honoring and remembering their war dead, let them sort out where and when and for how long it should be worn. It is as little of our business as us commemorating 1916 is of theirs.

It's a symbol of a particularly imperialist mentality, which has no place being worn at an international football match.

eamo
09-11-2011, 09:19 PM
It's a symbol of a particularly imperialist mentality, which has no place being worn at an international football match.
Hi Griska, it is a symbol that means different things to different people. And yes, I agree with FIFA's stand. It should be kept away from jerseys.

Trow
09-11-2011, 09:19 PM
Fifa will now allow the poppy to be worn on black armbands this weekend after pleas from David Cameron and Prince William.

''Referee!''

It's just a way to sneak into the public consciousness is'nt it? This over exposure to a ''symbol'' with a subliminal message designed to forever be a trigger mechanism for mourning or is it pride?

It's oversell and may affect your consumer right to free thinking.

Lá an Lúbáin
09-11-2011, 09:44 PM
"our" refers to myself and those decent people who think the same, as you well know, LaL.

So only people who agree with you on the poppy are decent. Thanks for qualifying that. I didn't actually know you were as arrogant as that but I do now.

Holly
09-11-2011, 10:32 PM
So only people who agree with you on the poppy are decent. Thanks for qualifying that. I didn't actually know you were as arrogant as that but I do now.
I happen to believe there is some decency lacking in anyone who cannot bring himself to respect the memory of those Irishmen and boys who fell in battle.

Lá an Lúbáin
09-11-2011, 10:43 PM
I happen to believe there is some decency lacking in anyone who cannot bring himself to respect the memory of those Irishmen and boys who fell in battle.

Oh, but I didn't say anything remotely resembling that. You really like giving other people their opinions, don't ya? Happens that my Granny's brother died at Gallipoli but I most certainly won't be remembering him by wearing a poppy. Why? Because the poppy, by the RBL's own admission, continiues to represent the British Army for services rendered from the Bogside to Sud-El-Bar to Helmand. So bask in the glory of British Imperialism, even in Ireland, but I say, níl, go raibh maith agat.

Fraxinus
09-11-2011, 10:48 PM
I happen to believe there is some decency lacking in anyone who cannot bring himself to respect the memory of those Irishmen and boys who fell in battle.

Again this is going overboard, if someone wants to repect the memory of those that died there are alternatives to the poppy instead of endorsing a symbol which now tips an equal hat to those who served in the north or any other colonial occupation...in fact it isn't even equal as most of the WW1 veterans are probably dead so most of the money raised goes to the more recent servicemen.

Dr. FIVE
09-11-2011, 11:01 PM
I happen to believe there is some decency lacking in anyone who cannot bring himself to respect the memory of those Irishmen and boys who fell in battle.

Difference between respect and conformity.

Holly
09-11-2011, 11:02 PM
Again this is going overboard, if someone wants to respect the memory of those that died there are alternatives to the poppy instead of endorsing a symbol which now tips an equal hat to those who served in the north or any other colonial occupation...

Despite attempts to politicize the poppy, it remains a simple symbol to commemorate all the fallen, friend or foe, from WWI onwards.

Fraxinus
09-11-2011, 11:06 PM
Despite attempts to politicize the poppy, it remains a simple symbol to commemorate all the fallen, friend or for, from WWI onwards.

And now it also funds the foot soldiers of colonialism.

Lá an Lúbáin
09-11-2011, 11:13 PM
Despite attempts to politicize the poppy, it remains a simple symbol to commemorate all the fallen, friend or foe, from WWI onwards.

What utter hogwash and sentimental claptrap. Not even the RBL claims that.

Count Bobulescu
10-11-2011, 06:44 AM
The debate over the Poppy seems to me to overlook the fact that different cultures are different cultures because they are different. We don't wear the Poppy, those from a different tradition do. Including a different Irish tradition. It's a tradition that those of us who aspire to a politically united island better get used to 'caus it ai'nt going away, not that I think it going away would be a good thing. It would not. Any united Ireland is going to be a lot more "British" than the present southern state, so get over the poppy lads and lasses, or else take care what you wish for. The poppy is worn for almost as many different reasons as there are people who wear it. From the raving militarist to the sentimental granny. Those who get upset, not so much here, but some people do really get upset at the sight of a poppy being worn, remind me of the people who wont watch TG4, RTE, 3, or any other Irish station but watch a British channel and then get offended by some usually imagined slight. It is our neighbors way of honoring and remembering their war dead, let them sort out where and when and for how long it should be worn. It is as little of our business as us commemorating 1916 is of theirs.

Well said eamo! Most sensible comment in this thread so far!

Count Bobulescu
10-11-2011, 06:49 AM
Mike Embley on BBC World News, and Katty Kay on BBC World News "America" both primary presenters, both forgot their poppy's on Wednesday night.

fluffybiscuits
10-11-2011, 02:38 PM
The debate over the Poppy seems to me to overlook the fact that different cultures are different cultures because they are different. We don't wear the Poppy, those from a different tradition do. Including a different Irish tradition. It's a tradition that those of us who aspire to a politically united island better get used to 'caus it ai'nt going away, not that I think it going away would be a good thing. It would not. Any united Ireland is going to be a lot more "British" than the present southern state, so get over the poppy lads and lasses, or else take care what you wish for. The poppy is worn for almost as many different reasons as there are people who wear it. From the raving militarist to the sentimental granny. Those who get upset, not so much here, but some people do really get upset at the sight of a poppy being worn, remind me of the people who wont watch TG4, RTE, 3, or any other Irish station but watch a British channel and then get offended by some usually imagined slight. It is our neighbors way of honoring and remembering their war dead, let them sort out where and when and for how long it should be worn. It is as little of our business as us commemorating 1916 is of theirs.

Think this is a very sensible position on the subject. I disagree with the politicising of football but this post sums up my position very well.

C. Flower
10-11-2011, 03:15 PM
It used to be worn for one day, by whoever got around to putting a few pennies into a tin can. And that was in the day when there were still veterans around.

Now, it's the badge of a rising tide of militarism. It's worn for a month, and viewed as some kind of loyalty test. People who don't wear one are pushed onto the defensive. It seriously reminds me of the pressure to wear the swastika arm band.

Baron von Biffo
10-11-2011, 03:17 PM
It used to be worn for one day, by whoever got around to putting a few pennies into a tin can. And that was in the day when there were still veterans around.

Now, it's the badge of a rising tide of militarism. It's worn for a month, and viewed as some kind of loyalty test. People who don't wear one are pushed onto the defensive. It seriously reminds me of the pressure to wear the swastika arm band.

Or a stars and stripes lapel pin?

Trow
10-11-2011, 03:21 PM
From a keen gardeners perspective, my red poppy has just burst it's pod today. A little more sunshine and it will open flower. Timely is'nt it given it's 5-6 months out of season.

Lá an Lúbáin
10-11-2011, 10:06 PM
Ah, the wonderful simple symbol of remembering

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/21893

So, a false allegation against a young teacher that she had ordered a pupil to remove a poppy , has now snowballed into a malicious campaign against the young teacher. The lynch mob includes BBC journalists, well ,Stephen Nolan, unionist poiticians, Wee Jeffrey and David Mc Narry and a host of internet sites.

The campaign of intimidation has reached such heights that the young teacher has now been advised to stay away from her place of employment by the PSNI.

It's past time for this poppy hysteria to be challenged head on.

5intheface
10-11-2011, 10:09 PM
Ah, the wonderful simple symbol of remembering

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/21893

So, a false allegation against a young teacher that she had ordered a pupil to remove a poppy , has now snowballed into a malicious campaign against the young teacher. The lynch mob includes BBC journalists, well ,Stephen Nolan, unionist poiticians, Wee Jeffrey and David Mc Narry and a host of internet sites.

The campaign of intimidation has reached such heights that the young teacher has now been advised to stay away from her place of employment by the PSNI.

It's past time for this poppy hysteria to be challenged head on.


Stop trying to politicise the poppy just because a line of politicians fill half a dozen political radio programmes talking about it.

And still 3 days to go.

Fraxinus
10-11-2011, 10:12 PM
Ah, the wonderful simple symbol of remembering

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/21893

So, a false allegation against a young teacher that she had ordered a pupil to remove a poppy , has now snowballed into a malicious campaign against the young teacher. The lynch mob includes BBC journalists, well ,Stephen Nolan, unionist poiticians, Wee Jeffrey and David Mc Narry and a host of internet sites.

The campaign of intimidation has reached such heights that the young teacher has now been advised to stay away from her place of employment by the PSNI.

It's past time for this poppy hysteria to be challenged head on.

You can borrow mine

http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00UWtaQKfwuEei/43cc-Brush-Cutter-Strimmer-Petrol-Line-Strimmer-BC415B-.jpg

Lá an Lúbáin
10-11-2011, 10:17 PM
Stop trying to politicise the poppy just because a line of politicians fill half a dozen political radio programmes talking about it.

And still 3 days to go.

You're just a bigot and repulican conspiracy nut who can't see the simple act of glorifying imperialism and militarism for what it is! A simple gesture for simpletons.

Trow
10-11-2011, 10:18 PM
Stop trying to politicise the poppy just because a line of politicians fill half a dozen political radio programmes talking about it.

And still 3 days to go.

About 12 hours to go 5intheface. [11th Hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month] What makes this years different is that it also falls in the 11th year of the Century.

Alot of 11111111's there.

5intheface
10-11-2011, 10:47 PM
About 12 hours to go 5intheface. [11th Hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month] What makes this years different is that it also falls in the 11th year of the Century.

Alot of 11111111's there.


I was meaning until Remembrance Sunday. :)

I have a nephew who'll be 11 on the 11/11/11 and guess what exact time he was born?.................ten past six. :D

BTW, I gave up on bedding plants this couple of years and just filled the pots with wildflower mixes including red poppies. There are a couple out at the moment. Also, there is one white rose in a hedge in the yard too, that is a first for me, outlasting the nerines!

Trow
10-11-2011, 11:57 PM
About 12 hours to go 5intheface. [11th Hour of the 11th day of the 11th Month] What makes this years different is that it also falls in the 11th year of the Century.

Alot of 11111111's there.


I was meaning until Remembrance Sunday. :)

I have a nephew who'll be 11 on the 11/11/11 and guess what exact time he was born?.................ten past six. :D

BTW, I gave up on bedding plants this couple of years and just filled the pots with wildflower mixes including red poppies. There are a couple out at the moment. Also, there is one white rose in a hedge in the yard too, that is a first for me, outlasting the nerines!

:D
Was that ten past six ''AM or PM?'':)

A bit of a Druids garden going on yourself there 5intheface. Add pots with Snowdrop/Snowbell, Bluebell, Daffodil and Tulip. Add a Forest Fern and Foxglove sit back and await the arrival of every Queen Bee in the County and beyond. [Bring Nature/Life were there was none].

Ever tried any of these?http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=poppy+seed+bread&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=smS8Ttj9AcjBswbet5HMAw&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=974&bih=352&sei=xWS8TrXyOo_Osgaf8oWIAw

Makes you look at the Poppy in a whole new way.:)

5intheface
11-11-2011, 12:07 AM
:D
Was that ten past six ''AM or PM?'':)

A bit of a Druids garden going on yourself there 5intheface. Add pots with Snowdrop/Snowbell, Bluebell, Daffodil and Tulip. Add a Forest Fern and Foxglove sit back and await the arrival of every Queen Bee in the County and beyond. [Bring Nature/Life were there was none].

Ever tried any of these?http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=poppy+seed+bread&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=smS8Ttj9AcjBswbet5HMAw&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=974&bih=352&sei=xWS8TrXyOo_Osgaf8oWIAw

Makes you look at the Poppy in a whole new way.:)


Some of those look heavy man, have had the odd loaf dusted with poppy seeds but there's one in there like a swiss roll. :eek:

I gotta take a pic or two of the 2 stones I carted down from the Glenshane of a time, you'd be impressed with the paganism.

Don't think I'll ever bother with bedding plants again, the randomness of the wild mix is hard to match and at a total cost of about £1.99. :)

Trow
11-11-2011, 06:13 PM
:

Ever tried any of these?http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=poppy+seed+bread&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=smS8Ttj9AcjBswbet5HMAw&ved=0CFEQsAQ&biw=974&bih=352&sei=xWS8TrXyOo_Osgaf8oWIAw

Makes you look at the Poppy in a whole new way.:)


Some of those look heavy man, have had the odd loaf dusted with poppy seeds but there's one in there like a swiss roll. :eek:

Looks just like a Celtic spiral. Others there look like Celtic knots/platts.

Aside the symbolism. Poppy are opiate and would have provided the morphine used in war/incursions in places like Vietnam were US Soldiers would have carried a bullet shaped vile around their necks to bite on should they be injured in battle.

The Celts would have known of the medicinal usage of Poppy.

To me, like all wildflowers the Poppy reminds me of Freedom.

Iolo
11-11-2011, 06:44 PM
And the poetry:(

I was saying to my wife that, instead of all this codswallop, they should spend the time reading my once-fellow-townsman Wilfred Owen's

'What Passing bell for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns,
only the stuttering rifle's rapid rattle
can patter out their hasty orisons'.

I could do the lot from memory, but it interests me that the victorian funeral and the use of the passing-bell in British Churches seem to have disappeared during the First War as a result of the industrialisation of death. I have had described to me the paper bringing the Western Mail up to the Rhondda, with its many black-edged pages and its long, long lists of the dead. To hell with their bloody poppies, I say.

C. Flower
11-11-2011, 06:59 PM
I was saying to my wife that, instead of all this codswallop, they should spend the time reading my once-fellow-townsman Wilfred Owen's

'What Passing bell for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns,
only the stuttering rifle's rapid rattle
can patter out their hasty orisons'.

I could do the lot from memory, but it interests me that the victorian funeral and the use of the passing-bell in British Churches seem to have disappeared during the First War as a result of the industrialisation of death. I have had described to me the paper bringing the Western Mail up to the Rhondda, with its many black-edged pages and its long, long lists of the dead. To hell with their bloody poppies, I say.

Maybe we should all wear the poppy as a symbol of the thousands of gallons of blood shed by young men from different nations, destroyed in the squabbles of the rich ?

Iolo
11-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Maybe we should all wear the poppy as a symbol of the thousands of gallons of blood shed by young men from different nations, destroyed in the squabbles of the rich ?

If they could be brought to accept the message, perhaps.

C. Flower
11-11-2011, 07:18 PM
If they could be brought to accept the message, perhaps.

The message can be delivered, because it's the truth.

5intheface
11-11-2011, 08:42 PM
I was saying to my wife that, instead of all this codswallop, they should spend the time reading my once-fellow-townsman Wilfred Owen's

'What Passing bell for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns,
only the stuttering rifle's rapid rattle
can patter out their hasty orisons'.

I could do the lot from memory, but it interests me that the victorian funeral and the use of the passing-bell in British Churches seem to have disappeared during the First War as a result of the industrialisation of death. I have had described to me the paper bringing the Western Mail up to the Rhondda, with its many black-edged pages and its long, long lists of the dead. To hell with their bloody poppies, I say.


Sassoon's 'Blighters' seems so apt for the current hysterical fetish.

The House is crammed: tier beyond tier they grin
And cackle at the show, while prancing ranks
Of harlots shrill the chorus, drunk with din;
‘We’re sure the Kaiser loves our dear old Tanks!’

I’d like to see a tank come down the stalls,
Lurching to rag-time tunes, or ‘Home sweet Home’,
And there’d be no more jokes in music-halls
To mock the riddled corpses round Bapaume.

5intheface
11-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Can't mention Sassoon without 'The General'

“Good morning; good morning” the General said
when we met last week on our way to the line.
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of ‘em dead,
and we’re cursing his staff for incompetent swine.
“He’s a cheery old card,” grunted Harry to Jack
as they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack.

But he did for them both by his plan of attack.

Iolo
11-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Agreed, CF. 5intheface - it is odd to think of Sassoon and Owen up in Edinburgh having treatment together and talking about poetry. I used to dodge cricket in school by nipping off to play tennis in Plas Wilmot, where Owen had lived. Sassoon is good, but I think Owen's the better poet, though he'd have been nothing but for the War - which suggests the sort of qualification we might make about the 'genius' notion of creativity. My memory played a slight trick: here is the whole of 'Anthem for Doomed Youth':

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns,
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for these from prayers or bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs -
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of silent minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

I think it embodies the sense in the sound and pace wonderfully. A 'Welsh' town currently counted as being in England Croesoswallt/Oswestry has produced a lot of creative people who always claim to come from somewhere else. It is a lesson about knowing your roots. I lived there for eight years, and it was like going back two hundred after the Rhondda. Dunno what it was like in Owen's time.

5intheface
11-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Agreed, CF. 5intheface - it is odd to think of Sassoon and Owen up in Edinburgh having treatment together and talking about poetry. I used to dodge cricket in school by nipping off to play tennis in Plas Wilmot, where Owen had lived. Sassoon is good, but I think Owen's the better poet, though he'd have been nothing but for the War - which suggests the sort of qualification we might make about the 'genius' notion of creativity. My memory played a slight trick: here is the whole of 'Anthem for Doomed Youth':

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns,
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for these from prayers or bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs -
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of goodbyes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of silent minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds.

I think it embodies the sense in the sound and pace wonderfully. A 'Welsh' town currently counted as being in England Croesoswallt/Oswestry has produced a lot of creative people who always claim to come from somewhere else. It is a lesson about knowing your roots. I lived there for eight years, and it was like going back two hundred after the Rhondda. Dunno what it was like in Owen's time.

It's mighty stuff, I recall watching a dramatisation of the pair together which must be about 30 years old.

Also, I saw something recently where there was a military/religious service in a church and in huge letters over the 'altar' area was 'Dulce et decorum est-pro patri mori' Any idea where this might have been? It looked so hollow with 'an ecstacy of fumbling' still running about in my head.

C. Flower
11-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Wrong again. It's not about the poppy. It's about Remembrance Sunday when I went as a nipper and stood at the War Memorial with my mum and my mate. My mate wore his fathers medals because his father was killed in North Africa as were two of my uncles. And my mum held his hand.

Not wrong. It was for a day - maybe two or three. It was not a loyalty test. And it was about the really felt deaths of millions of people.

Dr. FIVE
11-11-2011, 10:33 PM
It should be mandatory to read a history book in the month of November. Any subject you want.
I don't care about anything else

C. Flower
12-11-2011, 09:08 PM
In 1925 125,000 people turned out in Dublin "at a temporary Cenotaph" on Stephens Green for the seventh anniversary of the end of WW1.

Stink bombs were thrown to disrupt the minute's silence, and "God Save the King" was sung.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=mothers%20and%20children%20of%20irish%20soldiers&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2F opinion%2F2011%2F1112%2F1224307448183.html&ei=xt6-To20BMPOhAeg4rS_BA&usg=AFQjCNHDAngc_JOkPphAzV8OiPUTMg2CwQ

fluffybiscuits
13-11-2011, 03:03 PM
Maybe we should all wear the poppy as a symbol of the thousands of gallons of blood shed by young men from different nations, destroyed in the squabbles of the rich ?

Dispense with the symbols altogether. Silly people attach sentimenality to such things, more things going on the world for them to be worrying about...This is one those thing s I wished people were apathetic about...

Holly
13-11-2011, 03:34 PM
Our new President is attending a memorial service for the fallen at St. Patrick's Cathedral this afternoon.

Lá an Lúbáin
13-11-2011, 04:45 PM
Eoghan Harris announced on the radio this morning that he wears the poppy to annoy Provos. No agenda there then.

5intheface
13-11-2011, 05:09 PM
Eoghan Harris announced on the radio this morning that he wears the poppy to annoy Provos. No agenda there then.

Like he needed to wear a poppy to achieve that goal. :)

Saoirse go Deo
13-11-2011, 09:23 PM
I wonder if Harris attaches his with a pin, or a sticker. Complete fool, recently sunk to new lows when he castigated an Irish patriot at his graveside (Liam Lynch I believe).

Binn Beal
14-11-2011, 10:20 AM
My problem with the Poppy is that it commemorates diverse events.

On the one hand it commemorates those who died fighting fascism in the Second World War but on the other it commemorates the dogs of war from the imperial wars against the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Malaya, Aden, Kenya etc etc.
Most significantly it honours those millions of naive young men who were needlessly slaughtered by their generals in the First World War.

So, on balance, I'll have none of it or any other emblem-worship for that matter.

fluffybiscuits
14-11-2011, 03:47 PM
I wonder if Harris attaches his with a pin, or a sticker. Complete fool, recently sunk to new lows when he castigated an Irish patriot at his graveside (Liam Lynch I believe).

If you rise to the bait then no one to blame but yourselves. You attach too much sentimentality to the poppy. In saying that article was pure ***** stirring if ever I did see it...

Red Justice
18-11-2011, 05:07 PM
The only poppy I would wear is a white poppy to show my opposition to all man made wars. The red poppy is Imperialist and an emblem of the British Legion. It is correct to say it also serves those fighting in recent wars such as Afghanistan. And instead we should remember the Irish children murdered by British soldiers during the conflict. I refuse to buy a red poppy when asked and have never worn one in my native Scotland.

fluffybiscuits
19-11-2011, 12:30 AM
The only poppy I would wear is a white poppy to show my opposition to all man made wars. The red poppy is Imperialist and an emblem of the British Legion. It is correct to say it also serves those fighting in recent wars such as Afghanistan. And instead we should remember the Irish children murdered by British soldiers during the conflict. I refuse to buy a red poppy when asked and have never worn one in my native Scotland.

I think we might be better replacing it with a symbol like a snowdrop or something like that.A neutral symbol that we can all use to commemorate our dead instead of poppies or lilys. What do people think?

Lapsedmethodist
19-11-2011, 12:33 AM
I think we might be better replacing it with a symbol like a snowdrop or something like that.A neutral symbol that we can all use to commemorate our dead instead of poppies or lilys. What do people think?


Well this people thinks that it's over for another year and you should brace youself for the Twalfth.

fluffybiscuits
19-11-2011, 01:01 AM
Well this people thinks that it's over for another year and you should brace youself for the Twalfth.


I cant find a sash in pink, orange is so 1690..

Holly
19-11-2011, 01:21 AM
I think we might be better replacing it with a symbol like a snowdrop or something like that. ...
What about a white sport coat and a pink carnation?

Marty Robbins - A White Sportcoat and a Pink Carnation - 1955 - YouTube

Saoirse go Deo
07-11-2014, 09:04 PM
McClean sticking to his guns


http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk/news/article/14-11-07-statement-regarding-james-mcclean-2070059.aspx

morticia
07-11-2014, 09:07 PM
McClean sticking to his guns


http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk/news/article/14-11-07-statement-regarding-james-mcclean-2070059.aspx

Agree with him. Wonder should we produce a green poppy, to commemorate all Irish lost in WW1 and 2, and those who died in 1916-22 and in the Troubles?

Or some other appropriate symbol that differentiates the intent from the British red poppy somehow?

Binn Beal
07-11-2014, 09:52 PM
Well there is the Easter lily. But how about an annual day for all the millions that died or were maimed or had their lives cut short by slave labour under British imperialism over the last hundred years or so?

morticia
07-11-2014, 09:54 PM
Indeed! What is the Easter Lily supposed to commemorate; 1916?? Excuse ignorance! 😖

Binn Beal
07-11-2014, 10:50 PM
"Remember Ireland's dead. Wear an Easter Lily!"

I don't know who produces them nowadays but there used to be two organisations in the trade - the Provisionals and the Stickies (so-named as their lilies were adhesive, whereas the Provisional ones required pins.)

morticia
07-11-2014, 10:51 PM
Presumably wearing both would be confusing and seasonally incongruous? (Lily+poppy, I mean).

Apjp
07-11-2014, 11:00 PM
Fair play to McLean.

Could be a long term replacement for Eamo!!!

fluffybiscuits
08-11-2014, 03:12 PM
McClean sticking to his guns


http://www.wiganlatics.co.uk/news/article/14-11-07-statement-regarding-james-mcclean-2070059.aspx


The letter was really really well laid out and made the points eloquently. Dave Whelan, the chairman of Wigan, has agreed with him . Mc Cleans outbursts on twitter really won him no fans but this is a great gesture. Maybe as morticia said replacing the red poppy wiht a white one is a nice compromise. I lost relatives back generations ago in WW1 but Id never feel the need to wear a red poppy. Donations go to those who were part of British imperialist conquests...

C. Flower
09-11-2014, 06:27 PM
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4589634.ece/alternates/s615/Bolton-Wanderers-v-Wigan-Athletic-Sky-Bet-Championship.jpg
Decision: McClean came on as a late substitute against Bolton

Wigan winger James McClean has explained his stance on poppies in an open letter to chairman Dave Whelan.
The 25-year-old (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/james-mcclean) opted against wearing a poppy on in his shirt in Friday night's defeat to Bolton, as the club paid its respects to Remembrance Day.
During his time with Sunderland, McClean made a similar decision and explained his reasons to Whelan, before the pair met face-to-face this week.
Wigan confirmed the club's chairman had accepted his wish and agreed to publish the letter.
The Latics (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/wigan-athletic-fc) lost 3-1 to Bolton in the Championship clash with McClean coming on as a second-half substitute.
(http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-poppy-row-read-4590605)
James McLean's letter in full (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-poppy-row-read-4590605)


Dear Mr Whelan


I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.


I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.
I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.
I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.
For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.


Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.
It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.


I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.
I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.
As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.


Yours sincerely,


James McClean

Thom
16-01-2015, 10:43 AM
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4589634.ece/alternates/s615/Bolton-Wanderers-v-Wigan-Athletic-Sky-Bet-Championship.jpg
Decision: McClean came on as a late substitute against Bolton

Wigan winger James McClean has explained his stance on poppies in an open letter to chairman Dave Whelan.
The 25-year-old (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/james-mcclean) opted against wearing a poppy on in his shirt in Friday night's defeat to Bolton, as the club paid its respects to Remembrance Day.
During his time with Sunderland, McClean made a similar decision and explained his reasons to Whelan, before the pair met face-to-face this week.
Wigan confirmed the club's chairman had accepted his wish and agreed to publish the letter.
The Latics (http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/wigan-athletic-fc) lost 3-1 to Bolton in the Championship clash with McClean coming on as a second-half substitute.
(http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-poppy-row-read-4590605)
James McLean's letter in full (http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/james-mcclean-poppy-row-read-4590605)

A very thoughtfull and interesting letter. The best explanation I´ve come across so far on that subject.

C. Flower
08-11-2015, 11:05 AM
In the last few years, "Poppy Day" has gone from being a day of remembrance for war dead, and a fund raiser for disabled soldiers, to a coercive drum-beating exercise to promote war.
There has been widespread bullying of media personalities / celebrities who have "refused to wear" (i.e. not worn) a poppy

A 92 year old WW2 veteran has spoken against this, reported in Huffington Post. The white "peace" poppy is again being talked about as an alternative.



Once a symbol of remembrance and respect, the red poppy is now being used as a political tool by the government to “sell” its war on terror, a World War Two veteran has said.
Harry Leslie Smith (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/news/harry-leslie-smith/), a former RAF serviceman, believes the poppy has been both “politicised and commercialised” and the requirement to wear it has become a “month-long dirge of patriotism”.
The 92-year-old’s comments come as scrutiny grows over the red patriotic symbol. Last month, former EastEnders star Barbara Windsor said that anyone who does not wear a red poppy should “sod off”. (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/29/barbara-windsor-anyone-who-doesnt-poppy-can-sod-off_n_8418206.html)
Mr Smith does not wear a red poppy. He announced in 2013 that he would no longer allow his “obligation as a veteran” (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith) to be manipulated by governments to promote present-day wars.




Mr Nineham, who is one of the founders of the Stop the War Coalition, said: “More and more it [the red poppy] is associated with the military.
“Soldiers sell it at stations, arms companies fund the British Legion, prewar politicians are amongst the most enthusiastic supporters of militarised commemorations.
“People wear the red poppy for different and mostly respectful reasons but given this huge establishment campaign behind it there is a danger that the red poppy becomes associated with current, aggressive British foreign policy posture.”

Launchbury
08-11-2015, 02:12 PM
Sick of the poppy malarkey at this stage, it's gone from a remembrance Sunday to a remembrance month. The fact we have to listen to the rubbish around James McLeans personal choice not to wear one every year too is tiresome. He was booed yesterday, kind of contradicts the whole point of why so many fought and died in World War 2 doesn't it? It's the same with the armchair republicans deriding anyone who does wear it, they need to cop on just as much. It's probably just a fair reflection of the world today where everything causes moral outrage

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C. Flower
08-11-2015, 02:36 PM
Sick of the poppy malarkey at this stage, it's gone from a remembrance Sunday to a remembrance month. The fact we have to listen to the rubbish around James McLeans personal choice not to wear one every year too is tiresome. He was booed yesterday, kind of contradicts the whole point of why so many fought and died in World War 2 doesn't it? It's the same with the armchair republicans deriding anyone who does wear it, they need to cop on just as much. It's probably just a fair reflection of the world today where everything causes moral outrage

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No, I don't think "everything causes moral outrage" - not really. In theory, we live in a liberal era in which pretty well nothing much at all causes moral outrage.

There is nothing moral about ganging up on someone who doesn't support wars. It's a behaviour that sets out to stamp out any questioning of Britain's increasingly militaristic culture.
s

morticia
08-11-2015, 03:03 PM
I have to say, I won't wear the poppy. I see this as a pity, because I have relatives that died in both world wars, but they use it as a jingoistic excuse for further recruitment. I cannot look at the queues of refugees and wear a poppy. No can do.

And speaking as an armchair republican in BOTH the British and Irish senses, while looking at the Tory assault on the poor,
I would like to express my SINCERE gratitude to the 1916 lads for getting 26 counties outta that. Pity they didn't manage all 32, but hey.

I'd wear a green poppy in remembrance of them, and all others who died in wars, with the clear understanding that they are to avoided, where possible, going forward.

But I won't wear a red one. Tacit permission for further imperialist ****, as Cameron tries to drag Britain back to the feudal area.

Vote Corbyn.....and a grateful nod to James Connolly & Co. They had the right idea

Launchbury
08-11-2015, 04:31 PM
No, I don't think "everything causes moral outrage" - not really. In theory, we live in a liberal era in which pretty well nothing much at all causes moral outrage.

There is nothing moral about ganging up on someone who doesn't support wars. It's a behaviour that sets out to stamp out any questioning of Britain's increasingly militaristic culture.
s
Ok maybe moral outrage is the wrong phrase but people do get into a tizzy over little or nothing now. I was reading an article yesterday where a Chelsea supporting lawyer was interviewed by one of them fan TV websites on the way out of the Liverpool match last week, he made some stereotypical remarks about people from Liverpool and it made a big article and people hounding hin online and all this craic. That's the point I was getting at, someone says or does something people don't agree with now and it's a virtual witch hunt, happens to McLean every November

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pluralist
08-11-2015, 07:03 PM
" The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html

pluralist
09-11-2015, 11:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1CTxa-FuKc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqU0u9v6U0I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKvB3g3HEPQ

Wear the poppy?

I'd rather die.