Will There Be A United Left Alliance for the Coming General Election ? (p 125 - 14 Candidates )

[LeftAtTheCross]

I'd have to second LeftAtTheCross on that one:the deficit can be dealt with by a number of things that don't buy into the current austerity trend such as a 10% wealth tax on assets over €1 million, letting Anglo go, tearing up the Rossport contract with Shell and taking back control of natural resources, taxing corporate profits at the same rate as wages, and a hefty inheritance tax on inheritance of more than €200,000.

AE, in an unheard of display of Left unity I agree fully with your comment there.

What's the story about the "United Left Alliance" anyhow?

[antiestablishmentarian]

AE, in an unheard of display of Left unity I agree fully with your comment there.

What's the story about the "United Left Alliance" anyhow?

See left unity isn't that hard we can do it when we want to ;)
As for the ULA, today was actually the first that I had heard of it when you mentioned it: there's nothing on our site or the PBPA site either.

[LeftAtTheCross]

See left unity isn't that hard we can do it when we want to ;)
As for the ULA, today was actually the first that I had heard of it when you mentioned it: there's nothing on our site or the PBPA site either.

One of your SP comrades is suggesting that the announcement may be premature:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/united-left-alliance-formed/#comment-81150

[antiestablishmentarian]

One of your SP comrades is suggesting that the announcement may be premature:

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/united-left-alliance-formed/#comment-81150

I'm not surprised by that to be honest: we'd have been the first to hear if something definitive had been nailed down and agreed to by all the organisations involved. As a matter of interest what would the WP's position be to any formation such as the one proposed if it were to be finalised?

[LeftAtTheCross]

I'm not surprised by that to be honest: we'd have been the first to hear if something definitive had been nailed down and agreed to by all the organisations involved. As a matter of interest what would the WP's position be to any formation such as the one proposed if it were to be finalised?

I can't speak for the WP on that, I'm only one of the little people :-)

Personally, and you're aware of it already, I'm wary of what I'd see as Trotskyist opportunism. Is this alliance just another short-term vehicle that the excitable SWP are proposing? Is the SP going to tie it up in knots with forensic dissection of every policy proposal and bore the internal opposition into submission? I think there's an element of mania in the ultra Left and I'd be reluctant to get involved, personally.

However, before you react to that, let me say that I see an alliance of the SP and the SWP/PBPA as "a good thing" full stop. Anything which brings the broad Left closer together is progress, whatever about the policy differences, most of which are minutae as far as the electorate is concerned.

I would expect that the WP would not be in a hurry to join the alliance, but i would also expect that it would not be hostile in principle. Whether the WP would support the alliance at a local level would probably depend on whether there was any perceived toe-stepping going on I would guess. If there was no overlap then I'd go as far as saying that there would be a strong argument for WP members actively supporting alliance candidates in their local area. And vice versa presumably.

[C. Flower]

Anyone mind if the "Left Unity" posts are split off, so we can find them, and maintain a thread on youth employment?

They could either be a new thread or add on to the "Joe Higgins" thread.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Anyone mind if the "Left Unity" posts are split off, so we can find them, and maintain a thread on youth employment?

They could either be a new thread or add on to the "Joe Higgins" thread.

Fire away

[C. Flower]

Fire away

Done. Here's the article that started this particular discussion, and the reply from the SP.

http://wp.me/p14WQ-44T

[Sam Lord]

They will really suck on the national question.

[C. Flower]

They will really suck on the national question.

Will they have policies as such ? I thought they were only looking for an electoral pact/co-ordination.

If they were anywhere near forming a government, then they would need to agree on a programme for government.

[Sam Lord]

Will they have policies as such ? I thought they were only looking for an electoral pact/co-ordination.

If they were anywhere near forming a government, then they would need to agree on a programme for government.

I don't know really. I personally wouldn't, however, be voting to put anyone into the Dail who didn't have an articulated position on the matter that I could live with.

It will be interesting to see what they do come up with. If thir positions are radical and they are saying things like default, withdraw from the EU, etc. it could be a worthwhile project. If they are saying oppose the cutbacks, stimulus spending, etc. then it will be just a safety valve.

I have to say that I am surprised how happy those few groups were to just get together and allocate the seats etc. amongst themselves. If it was me trying to put together an alternative I would have been casting the net alot further around and trying to build something broader. There are, for example. I am sure many good unaffiliated people around the place who would like to have a role in something new and progressive. But this thing looks like it was done and dusted before anyone else was asked for input.

I think there could still be possibly room to the left of these for a broad anti-imperialist front. It would mean the revolutionary left (if there is one in Ireland) or people of that disposition talking to left republicans. I think that would be where I would find my home if I lived in your country ... but then I don't.:)

[Apjp]

I don't know really. I personally wouldn't, however, be voting to put anyone into the Dail who didn't have an articulated position on the matter that I could live with.

It will be interesting to see what they do come up with. If thir positions are radical and they are saying things like default, withdraw from the EU, etc. it could be a worthwhile project. If they are saying oppose the cutbacks, stimulus spending, etc. then it will be just a safety valve.

I have to say that I am surprised how happy those few groups were to just get together and allocate the seats etc. amongst themselves. If it was me trying to put together an alternative I would have been casting the net alot further around and trying to build something broader. There are, for example. I am sure many good unaffiliated people around the place who would like to have a role in something new and progressive. But this thing looks like it was done and dusted before anyone else was asked for input.

I think there could still be possibly room to the left of these for a broad anti-imperialist front. It would mean the revolutionary left (if there is one in Ireland) or people of that disposition talking to left republicans. I think that would be where I would find my home if I lived in your country ... but then I don't.:)

I agree, a LOT of unaffiated people-mostly young, and no offense to our female compatriots, but I believe they are by away and far men without a cause because no current ideology matches theirs. You need to relate to people-realistically tell them you want to get into government and change everything-mind you leaving the EU is unnecessary. We just need someone to tell Angela m. to **** off every so often as she did not nobody asked us if we wanted east germany in europe. As for mr. rehn well we all know the human rights issues over his letting romania in(just think of all the homeless roma traveling beggars that come here for a start!).We must leave the eurozone and set up our own currency. we could back it up with our economic mainstays, such as shell which was not sold via a referendum-which something that big only can be surely? In reality, the bank bail out itself was against the best interests of the people, so that should have had a snap referendum too. I don't care how idealistic my policies are. What we need is either, the socialist groups to form one or two parties and start appealing to people-for example the stockmarket may be lessened and shrunken but it will never disappear. If you criminalize it tomorrow, it will still exist elsewhere. What you could do is counter it, and not have your sovereignty at the mercy of the international bond market. In my view I will only see a democratic socialism party in my life time if I set one up myself. I am, thanks to both myself and Irish society, the ultimate cynic/idealist-a contradiction onto one.

A united left?-I would look into it if i believed it could do anything. But I have only seen lunies represent pbp so far and the sp has been beating the same drum too long. id hold out more hope for the wp but they are quite small, and pretty far from me.

[Mick Tully]

I would hate to think of a coalition with a grouping such as SWP, SP, WP, LP/WP, SF and god knows who, maybe David Beg and his over paid cohorts in the unions. We are F!!!ed at the moment the thought would be frightful.

[Ah Well]

I would hate to think of a coalition with a grouping such as SWP, SP, WP, LP/WP, SF and god knows who, maybe David Beg and his over paid cohorts in the unions. We are F!!!ed at the moment the thought would be frightful.

I presume that LP/WP is the Happy Gilmore version.

Then again with Happy's Gang and our none the cleverer in a general sense as to where exactly are they going or what are they doing, might they possibly hop on board? :)

[Jolly Red Giant]

Will they have policies as such ? I thought they were only looking for an electoral pact/co-ordination.
My understanding is that people are looking for acceptance of a set of minimum proposals - and I doubt if it would include anything that any of the groups/individuals mentioned would ahve difficulty with.

As for a pact, if it is going to happen yes - if something a little more concrete and long-term, then why not?


If they were anywhere near forming a government, then they would need to agree on a programme for government.
Given that there will probalby be 15 candidates in total, I would expect this will be a big problem.

[C. Flower]

My understanding is that people are looking for acceptance of a set of minimum proposals - and I doubt if it would include anything that any of the groups/individuals mentioned would ahve difficulty with.

As for a pact, if it is going to happen yes - if something a little more concrete and long-term, then why not?


Given that there will probalby be 15 candidates in total, I would expect this will be a big problem.

You might find yourselves in the position of the Green Party at the last election.

Which would you choose - if it was available - a Left Labour SF alliance in Government or stay out and allow an FG/Lab Coalition govern. ?

[LeftAtTheCross]

You might find yourselves in the position of the Green Party at the last election.

Which would you choose - if it was available - a Left Labour SF alliance in Government or stay out and allow an FG/Lab Coalition govern. ?

Not to put myself in the position of speaking for the SP, but the question is meaningless without outlining at least some of the broad strokes of a Left programme for government which might be nogotiated between Labour / SF and others on the Left.

Or are you trying to force the hand of an SP nay-sayer :-)

[Apjp]

Not to put myself in the position of speaking for the SP, but the question is meaningless without outlining at least some of the broad strokes of a Left programme for government which might be nogotiated between Labour / SF and others on the Left.

Or are you trying to force the hand of an SP nay-sayer :-)

I would say the choice would have to be Lab. SF otherwise you are just insignificant others. But such a programme culd have, for the smaller parties, stringent negotiations which have significant, but realistic demands such vouched international borrowings-why should a govt get away with borroing in our name without every penny borrowed for a reason-if you borrow a billion-every penny must be accounted for. other things like a wage cap of 70k for all in the public service would be ideal-not to mention letting anglo go immediately. You never know what can be done until you are able to do it.

[PES activist]

Intersting discussion, but in truth one that will amount to very little. Maybe Joe will get back in Dublin West, although that's far from certain, and RBB may be in the running in DL, but that is a very long shot on current numbers. But, my friends, that's about it.

In addition, Labour has made it very clear that we are completely uninterested in pre- or post-election deals with the Trotskyite fringe, or with any pre-election arrangements with SF. Sorry to disappoint you, but the chances of a Trot TD or possibly two, having any impact on government policy are about as close to zero as you can get.

In the coming election. the independents and smaller parties are going to be heavilly squeezed. People will be voting to punish FF and for a change of government and not a random assortment of oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers.

[C. Flower]

Intersting discussion, but in truth one that will amount to very little. Maybe Joe will get back in Dublin West, although that's far from certain, and RBB may be in the running in DL, but that is a very long shot on current numbers. But, my friends, that's about it.

In addition, Labour has made it very clear that we are completely uninterested in pre- or post-election deals with the Trotskyite fringe, or with any pre-election arrangements with SF. Sorry to disappoint you, but the chances of a Trot TD or possibly two, having any impact on government policy are about as close to zero as you can get.

In the coming election. the independents and smaller parties are going to be heavilly squeezed. People will be voting to punish FF and for a change of government and not a random assortment of oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers.

You have your chickens well and truly counted there PES activist.
I wonder what your expectations for the next election were two years ago ? :) Times change and so do people.

I have to add, that I've heard the opposing view from more than one Labour Councillor. Not everyone in Labour is happy with the idea of a Fine Gael Government.

[C. Flower]

Not to put myself in the position of speaking for the SP, but the question is meaningless without outlining at least some of the broad strokes of a Left programme for government which might be nogotiated between Labour / SF and others on the Left.

Or are you trying to force the hand of an SP nay-sayer :-)

I don't think it's meaningless, it's a very clear choice, with or without a programme.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Intersting discussion, but in truth one that will amount to very little. Maybe Joe will get back in Dublin West, although that's far from certain, and RBB may be in the running in DL, but that is a very long shot on current numbers. But, my friends, that's about it.

In addition, Labour has made it very clear that we are completely uninterested in pre- or post-election deals with the Trotskyite fringe, or with any pre-election arrangements with SF. Sorry to disappoint you, but the chances of a Trot TD or possibly two, having any impact on government policy are about as close to zero as you can get.

In the coming election. the independents and smaller parties are going to be heavilly squeezed. People will be voting to punish FF and for a change of government and not a random assortment of oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers.

Well now.

As Cass says, those chickens are counted indeed, aren't they.

With arrogance like that, and a disregard for the democratic choices of the electorate who will be voting for "oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers", you paint a picture of entitlement to membership of the golden circle which would rival the most pompous assumption of any FF minister...

(Not that I would disagree with you actually on the substance of voting for local-issues independent candidates, it is a form of clientelism and the worst of "what can you do for me" parish pump politics).

Anyhow PES, you are nailing your colours to the mast there and they aren't red for sure, you'll be happier propping up the Tory Boys of FG and telling us "there is no alternative" than you would be in pursuing the type of transformative radical policies which might otherwise have been a common goal of socialists and old school social democrats.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I don't think it's meaningless, it's a very clear choice, with or without a programme.

I'd disagree with you there, you're making it a matter of principle rather than one of politics.

If the LP and SF (miraculously) agreed to a programme with a roadmap of substantial socialist transformation of the economy and society over the lifetime of the Dail then I think that's something which could be supported by the Left.

Whereas without that type of content and commitment why would the Left be expected to get involved?

But let's hear from someone in the SP about that, it's a question that was originally directed at them or their partners in the new United Left Alliance.

[PES activist]

You have your chickens well and truly counted there PES activist.
I wonder what your expectations for the next election were two years ago ? :) Times change and so do people.

Of course times and people change, CF, but in the last two or so years that change has taken place in the mainstream of Irish politics. The trotskyite fringe remains the trotskyite fringe and is as unlikely to secure the trust of the Irish people as ever. That's not "counting chickens", CF, but rather an informed observation of how Irish politics is shaping up for the next GE.


I have to add, that I've heard the opposing view from more than one Labour Councillor. Not everyone in Labour is happy with the idea of a Fine Gael Government.

There are many people in Labour, including myself, who are wholly unimpressed at the idea of coalition with Fine Gael. Indeed, I'd say that a majority of the party are not exactly enthused by that prospect. However, the overwhelming majority of party members want to see Labour in government after the next election and if that means a coalition with FG then so be it. Only this time the comparative numbers between Labour and FG will mean a very different kind of coalition, and even one in which Eamon Gilmore could emerge as Taoiseach.

[Apjp]

Intersting discussion, but in truth one that will amount to very little. Maybe Joe will get back in Dublin West, although that's far from certain, and RBB may be in the running in DL, but that is a very long shot on current numbers. But, my friends, that's about it.

In addition, Labour has made it very clear that we are completely uninterested in pre- or post-election deals with the Trotskyite fringe, or with any pre-election arrangements with SF. Sorry to disappoint you, but the chances of a Trot TD or possibly two, having any impact on government policy are about as close to zero as you can get.

In the coming election. the independents and smaller parties are going to be heavilly squeezed. People will be voting to punish FF and for a change of government and not a random assortment of oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers.

Very obtuse and stereotypical of you my fellow poster! Also sounds very pro-establishment for a supposed social democrat! And who said anything about all of us democratic socialists being trotskyists??? I myself adhere to some of Connolly, some of Lenin, a small bit of Marx, even Orwellian concepts, but mostly my beliefs are a collection of these four idealists and my own views as an Irish student from a very low socio-economic background with a single father looking after a big family on the dole for over two years now. Our circumstances and our beliefs, individually, make up who we are. No two men are the same. We may act collectively upon common principles, but I think you will find, that even the most unwilling to compromise like PBP and the SP will disagree constantly internally-it is how democratic socialism and indeed social democracy should work. The two are not the same, but they can work together-sorry but I am sure you are wrong, and I am not the only one.

[Apjp]

You have your chickens well and truly counted there PES activist.
I wonder what your expectations for the next election were two years ago ? :) Times change and so do people.

I have to add, that I've heard the opposing view from more than one Labour Councillor. Not everyone in Labour is happy with the idea of a Fine Gael Government.

PES is a councillor? Interesting that such dismissive views come with the territory across the board-maybe you are all the same-but then again that would be stereotyping like PES does.

[Apjp]

Well now.

As Cass says, those chickens are counted indeed, aren't they.

With arrogance like that, and a disregard for the democratic choices of the electorate who will be voting for "oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers", you paint a picture of entitlement to membership of the golden circle which would rival the most pompous assumption of any FF minister...

(Not that I would disagree with you actually on the substance of voting for local-issues independent candidates, it is a form of clientelism and the worst of "what can you do for me" parish pump politics).

Anyhow PES, you are nailing your colours to the mast there and they aren't red for sure, you'll be happier propping up the Tory Boys of FG and telling us "there is no alternative" than you would be in pursuing the type of transformative radical policies which might otherwise have been a common goal of socialists and old school social democrats.

The last two lines of this sum up my disgust with some people in labour-might i add i KNOW it is only some.

[Apjp]

I'd disagree with you there, you're making it a matter of principle rather than one of politics.

If the LP and SF (miraculously) agreed to a programme with a roadmap of substantial socialist transformation of the economy and society over the lifetime of the Dail then I think that's something which could be supported by the Left.

Whereas without that type of content and commitment why would the Left be expected to get involved?

But let's hear from someone in the SP about that, it's a question that was originally directed at them or their partners in the new United Left Alliance.

Left, will the WP be moving on this soon-just to set out their stall, and inform as many people as they can at least?

[Apjp]

Of course times and people change, CF, but in the last two or so years that change has taken place in the mainstream of Irish politics. The trotskyite fringe remains the trotskyite fringe and is as unlikely to secure the trust of the Irish people as ever. That's not "counting chickens", CF, but rather an informed observation of how Irish politics is shaping up for the next GE.



There are many people in Labour, including myself, who are wholly unimpressed at the idea of coalition with Fine Gael. Indeed, I'd say that a majority of the party are not exactly enthused by that prospect. However, the overwhelming majority of party members want to see Labour in government after the next election and if that means a coalition with FG then so be it. Only this time the comparative numbers between Labour and FG will mean a very different kind of coalition, and even one in which Eamon Gilmore could emerge as Taoiseach.

In other words, to hell with principles of some of your own party's social democrats-the power hungry will win out?? So, even though SF are running 43 seats in the next election, you still won't even think of including them? Sounds a bit like party before people to me. basically you are saying as long as your party gets in, even if FG agree with you on nothing, that is the main thing-ad t hell with SF and the rest of us along with that option!! I smell tainted blood! I am glad I saw the light in not joining Labour-if they are truly as you say. I would rather wait in the wings til the state collapses for a chance to make a difference with what is now a smaller DS party than join Labour in that case. However, I again re-iterate I believe you are wrong, and that these are your own personal views-and not the majority views of Lab. At least, for the sake of DS and Sd, one would hope not.

[Apjp]

Just to clarify DS=Democratic Socialism, and SD = Social democracy. These abbreviations are not always understood.

[PES activist]

Very obtuse and stereotypical of you my fellow poster! Also sounds very pro-establishment for a supposed social democrat! And who said anything about all of us democratic socialists being trotskyists??? I myself adhere to some of Connolly, some of Lenin, a small bit of Marx, even Orwellian concepts, but mostly my beliefs are a collection of these four idealists and my own views as an Irish student from a very low socio-economic background with a single father looking after a big family on the dole for over two years now. Our circumstances and our beliefs, individually, make up who we are. No two men are the same. We may act collectively upon common principles, but I think you will find, that even the most unwilling to compromise like PBP and the SP will disagree constantly internally-it is how democratic socialism and indeed social democracy should work. The two are not the same, but they can work together-sorry but I am sure you are wrong, and I am not the only one.

OK Apjp, I take your points, but the thrust of this thread is about two trotskyite parties, the SP and SWP/PBP acting as the principal anchors for a United Left Alliance. I was responding to those posters who were speculating about the possibilty of Labour being open to some sort of dialogue with this Alliance. The blunt fact is that Labour has no interst in any such dialogue.

Furthermore, there was some speculation that this Alliance could deliver a significant Hard Left bloc in the next Dáil ... again my view, for what it is worth, is that there may be one and at the outisde chance, possibly two such seats available at the next election. Such representation does not a serious impact make.

[PES activist]

Well now.

As Cass says, those chickens are counted indeed, aren't they.

With arrogance like that, and a disregard for the democratic choices of the electorate who will be voting for "oppositionalists and local pork-barrellers", you paint a picture of entitlement to membership of the golden circle which would rival the most pompous assumption of any FF minister...

(Not that I would disagree with you actually on the substance of voting for local-issues independent candidates, it is a form of clientelism and the worst of "what can you do for me" parish pump politics).

Anyhow PES, you are nailing your colours to the mast there and they aren't red for sure, you'll be happier propping up the Tory Boys of FG and telling us "there is no alternative" than you would be in pursuing the type of transformative radical policies which might otherwise have been a common goal of socialists and old school social democrats.

That's the same old criticism of sell-out that the oppositionalist Left have been throwing at the mainstream Left for decades now, LeftATC. It's as clichéd now as it ever was and is evidence of the complete unlikelihood of the mainstream and extreme Left coming to any electoral or governmental arrangement.

This idea of some kid of dialogue or alliance between the trotskyite fringe and the mainstream Left makes the assumption that we have something in common. Your last point repeats this assumption. For the record, the mainstream Left has very little in common, ideologically or electorally, with the trotskyite fringe. There is an unbridgeable gulf between these traditions based on our different approaches to pluralist democracy.

There are opportunities for engagement with other currents within the Irish Left, but the LP will not touch anything with the SWP or SP's fingerprints on with a 10 metre bargepole. That is neither arrogance nor pomposity as you state, rather it's realpolitik and a clear statement of Labour's intentions.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Furthermore, there was some speculation that this Alliance could deliver a significant Hard Left bloc in the next Dáil ... again my view, for what it is worth, is that there may be one and at the outisde chance, possibly two such seats available at the next election. Such representation does not a serious impact make.
There is an general trend of arrogance running through posts by LP members all over the Internet. Loathe do I am to admit it - I have lived through several coalitions involving the LP. I suggest you look back on a little history.

The LP are going into government slap-bang in the middle of the worst economic slump in 80 years. Within six months of being elected and after implementing widespread cuts, the LP will be the most hated party in the history of the state and will face an unmerciful hammering in the following election.

Those involved with any Left alliance are and will be realistic about the prospects of candidates in the coming election. It is impossible to predict but the 'United Left' could win between 1 and 7 seats depending on how the election pans out - Joe Higgins will win a seat in Dublin West, the Socialist Party (on a very good day) could win in DN and CNC, PBP could take seats in DSC and DL, Seamus Healy could win in TS and I would rule out Bree winning in Sligo.

[PES activist]

In other words, to hell with principles of some of your own party's social democrats-the power hungry will win out?? So, even though SF are running 43 seats in the next election, you still won't even think of including them? Sounds a bit like party before people to me. basically you are saying as long as your party gets in, even if FG agree with you on nothing, that is the main thing-ad t hell with SF and the rest of us along with that option!! I smell tainted blood! I am glad I saw the light in not joining Labour-if they are truly as you say. I would rather wait in the wings til the state collapses for a chance to make a difference with what is now a smaller DS party than join Labour in that case. However, I again re-iterate I believe you are wrong, and that these are your own personal views-and not the majority views of Lab. At least, for the sake of DS and Sd, one would hope not.

I dont know how you read that from my post. Let me summarise my views on electoral pacts and governmental arrangements.

1. There is no majority in the country for a Labour Party-ULA-SF coalition. That's just moonshine, my friend. Even if it were possible to bridge the differences between the mainstream Left and the trotskyite fringe, there would be no electoral traction in such an arrangement. Quite the opposite, in fact.

2. The most credible outcome of the election that would result in Labour in government, and even potentially leading such a government, is in coalition with FG. Does that make most Labour Party people happy? Short answer, no! Does it, however, represent the best opportunity for Labour to put its political programme into action and deliver the changes that our country needs? Well, yes!

3. Contrary to what you assume, this view has the overwhelming support of Labour Party members.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This idea of some kid of dialogue or alliance between the trotskyite fringe and the mainstream Left makes the assumption that we have something in common. Your last point repeats this assumption. For the record, the mainstream Left has very little in common, ideologically or electorally, with the trotskyite fringe. There is an unbridgeable gulf between these traditions based on our different approaches to pluralist democracy.

This is quite true - the 'mainstream' left of the LP is in reality a neo-liberal, pro-capitalist, pro-cuts party.

[PES activist]

There is an general trend of arrogance running through posts by LP members all over the Internet. Loathe do I am to admit it - I have lived through several coalitions involving the LP. I suggest you look back on a little history.

The LP are going into government slap-bang in the middle of the worst economic slump in 80 years. Within six months of being elected and after implementing widespread cuts, the LP will be the most hated party in the history of the state and will face an unmerciful hammering in the following election.

Those involved with any Left alliance are and will be realistic about the prospects of candidates in the coming election. It is impossible to predict but the 'United Left' could win between 1 and 7 seats depending on how the election pans out - Joe Higgins will win a seat in Dublin West, the Socialist Party (on a very good day) could win in DN and CNC, PBP could take seats in DSC and DL, Seamus Healy could win in TS and I would rule out Bree winning in Sligo.

"Arrogance" is one of the jobbing accusations that the trotsyist fringe throw at successful mainstream Left political parties all the time. All it serves to do is illustrate the degree to which the fringe is so marginalised in Irish politics.

There is no likelihood whatsoever of seven ULA seats in the next Dáil. I can understand people talking up their own party's chances of success, but that is pure moonshine JRG, and well you know it. Joe is far from a shoe-in for the DW seat and the only other (very) outside prospect is RBB in DL. Beyond that, you're whistling in the wind.

[PES activist]

This is quite true - the 'mainstream' left of the LP is in reality a neo-liberal, pro-capitalist, pro-cuts party.

Of course we are, JRG. Sure, we eat babies for breakfast as well.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Nice to see how dismissive you are - I would suggest that suggesting the LP will lead the government is seriously talking up your chances - particularly as the right-wing hacks haven't started to have serious go at Gilmore yet.


Of course we are, JRG. Sure, we eat babies for breakfast as well.
1. Does the LP support the Market?
2. Does the LP have a history of imposing cuts during a recession?
3. Has the LP signed up to the 3% deficit by 2014?

[antiestablishmentarian]

"Arrogance" is one of the jobbing accusations that the trotsyist fringe throw at successful mainstream Left political parties all the time. All it serves to do is illustrate the degree to which the fringe is so marginalised in Irish politics.

There is no likelihood whatsoever of seven ULA seats in the next Dáil. I can understand people talking up their own party's chances of success, but that is pure moonshine JRG, and well you know it. Joe is far from a shoe-in for the DW seat and the only other (very) outside prospect is RBB in DL. Beyond that, you're whistling in the wind.

Times change, who'd have said 17 months ago that Joe Higgins would get elected to the European Parliament or that Labour would have passed FF out in the polls. I can see a swing to the left in some places following the upcoming budget and savaging of public services that the all mainstream parties support.

[PES activist]

antiestablishmentarian;84789]Times change, who'd have said 17 months ago that Joe Higgins would get elected to the European Parliament or that Labour would have passed FF out in the polls. I can see a swing to the left in some places following the upcoming budget and savaging of public services that the all mainstream parties support.

Of course times change and of course Irish politics is exceptionally fluid at this time. But ALL of the electoral changes that are taking place are happening within the mainsteam and not on the trotskyite fringe. That really is my point.

By all means attempt to bring the SWP and SP together and use them as an anchor for other non-aligned people, but the cold truth is (a) the electoral impact of such an alliance will be very marginal at best, and (b) the LP will have nothing to do with it. Sorry if that disappoints, but that's the reality, I'm afraid.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Sorry if that disappoints, but that's the reality, I'm afraid.
The only people that will be disappointed are those that vote for the LP in the expectation that something will change.

The Socialist Party has been around long enough (inside and outside the LP) to know exactly the character of the party and exactly what they will do in government.

[electionlit]

Must say I cant see any harm in the United Left Alliance. I'm sure the joint policy platform will be appealing enough. We don't know the full details of the Alliance yet.
With the locations of PBP and the Socialist Party candidates there will be no stepping on toes. (The Next Local Elections might be when that occurs)
The presence of Joe Higgins can be of great help to PBP and his appeal may help push a few extra voters in their direction.
As it stands on a good day they might win 5 seats (7 on a brilliant day)
Seamus Healy -Great Chance
Joe Higgins -Great Chance
Clare Daly - 50/50
Joan Collins - 50/50
Richard Boyd Barrett - 50/50

Declan Bree -small chance
John Dwyer -small chance
Gino Kenny -small chance
Mick Barry - small chance

Cian Prendiville - no chance
Is there anyone from Waterford I wonder, the likes of John Halligan (rumoured to have been approached by Labour) .

Interesting times ahead

[PES activist]

The Socialist Party has been around long enough (inside and outside the LP) to know exactly the character of the party and exactly what they will do in government.

Thanks JRG, that's the first time I've seen a formal acknowledgement by the SP/MT/CWI of their previous tactic of entryism into the Labour Party. Confirmation, if any was needed, that previous claims by the SP/MT/CWI that they were not entryists were bare-faced lies.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Thanks JRG, that's the first time I've seen a formal acknowledgement by the SP/MT/CWI of their previous tactic of entryism into the Labour Party. Confirmation, if any was needed, that previous claims by the SP/MT/CWI that they were not entryists were bare-faced lies.

Wow - it sounds like it comes as a major surprise to you.

Interestingly enough James Connolly founded the LP as a federal organisation that allowed Marxists to openly organise within the LP. He himself was a member of the Socialist Party of Ireland carrying out 'entry work' in the LP. During the War of Independence John Dowling, Jack McGrath, Jack Hedley and others carried out 'entry work' as part of the Revolutionary Socialist Party. It was only when the right-wing pro-capitalist elements consolidated control that they attempted to exclude Marxists from the party - while at the same time carrying out their own group 'entry work'.

[PES activist]

Wow - it sounds like it comes as a major surprise to you.

Not really. I spent many a happy month in the LP engaged in the systematic expulsion of trotskyite entryists. What I clearly remember at that time in all the interviews I was involved in was the rigid adherence by MT members to the line that they were not a member of a "party within the party" and were not engaged in "entryism." That these people were lying was common knowledge. I'm glad to see that the SP is now openly acknowledging that its members systematically lied during this period. And people wonder why the LP won't touch such an organisation with a bargepole.

The best of luck to the SWP and others in the proposed UAL. I hope the SP people you are dealing with are more honest than those I dealt with ... somehow I doubt it.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The best of luck to the SWP and others in the proposed UAL. I hope the SP people you are dealing with are more honest than those I dealt with ... somehow I doubt it.
Honesty !!!!!! Coming from the party of Barry 'I won't shut hospitals' Desmond, Liam 'I won't impose water charges' Kavanagh, Dick 'I don't believe in tax amnesties' Spring (before he goes off to line his pockets in Eircom and try and continue the dynasty in Kerry North)

Honesty - give us a break - we see how honest they are when they try and screw working class people when they get into government.

[PES activist]

Honesty !!!!!! Coming from the party of Barry 'I won't shut hospitals' Desmond, Liam 'I won't impose water charges' Kavanagh, Dick 'I don't believe in tax amnesties' Spring (before he goes off to line his pockets in Eircom and try and continue the dynasty in Kerry North)

Honesty - give us a break - we see how honest they are when they try and screw working class people when they get into government.

Looks like I touched a bit of a raw nerve there, JRG. :)

[Jolly Red Giant]

Looks like I touched a bit of a raw nerve there, JRG. :)
Raw nerve - take a lot more than you playing silly buggers to touch any kind of nerve.

Don't worry - those on the 'fringe' left will have it last laugh - it's a pity that the LP will try and make the working class of this country pay through the teeth for it.

[LeftAtTheCross]

There are opportunities for engagement with other currents within the Irish Left, but the LP will not touch anything with the SWP or SP's fingerprints on with a 10 metre bargepole. That is neither arrogance nor pomposity as you state, rather it's realpolitik and a clear statement of Labour's intentions.

PES,

Would you care to elaborate on which "other currents" you had in mind?

You seem to have already discounted SF. (As a WP member I would question anyway whether SF has any socialist depth or whether their Left-nationalist views will dissipate and allow them to migrate towards the centre without much internal angst once they get the sniff of a chance to get into government).

There aren't a a lot of other currents out there. Are you suggesting that some of the "local pork barellers", as you previously dismissed them, such as Finian McGrath and Maureen O'Sullivan, might find common cause with a LP / FG coalition?

Are you flying a kite in the direction of the WP? Not that we have any TDs at the moment! I won't be immediately dismissive of such a proposition. I'm not in the WP long enough to bear the scars of the DL episode, so no personal baggage, ok.

Just wondering where you're coming from?

[antiestablishmentarian]

OK Apjp, I take your points, but the thrust of this thread is about two trotskyite parties, the SP and SWP/PBP acting as the principal anchors for a United Left Alliance. I was responding to those posters who were speculating about the possibilty of Labour being open to some sort of dialogue with this Alliance. The blunt fact is that Labour has no interst in any such dialogue.

Furthermore, there was some speculation that this Alliance could deliver a significant Hard Left bloc in the next Dáil ... again my view, for what it is worth, is that there may be one and at the outisde chance, possibly two such seats available at the next election. Such representation does not a serious impact make.

The fact is, any such left alliance would probably warn people against voting for Labour based on their past record in government and some of Gilmores' comments since the crisis began, such as the one to the effect that Labour would cut €6 billion, and the fact that Labour supports the introduction of water charges. There's also the fact that in local councils around the country Labour and FG held majorities during the bubble years and it was on their watch that much of the disastrous rezoning of land for residential development took place.

Also just to take up your point about such an alliance not making any gains: you'll remember, no doubt, the Spring Tide of 1992, what that showed was that were there is a supportive public mood, lack of any previous notability was not a factor: off the top of my head I can think of one candidate, Moosajee Bhamjee in clare, who had little or no base to speak of and was still elected, and I think that a number of the prospective candidates for a left alliance , 2-3 perhaps, have a 50-50 chance of getting elected alongside those with a very good chance of getting in like Joe Higgins and Séamus Healy.

[LeftAtTheCross]

Left, will the WP be moving on this soon-just to set out their stall, and inform as many people as they can at least?

AJPJ,

As I've said before in a few threads here, I don't think there's any rabbit to be pulled out of a hat as a solution to the economic crisis.

No comprehensive "election manifesto" of proposals is currently available.

The WP will of course publish material with some broad strokes of critique and analysis ahead of the election, but I think it's inportant not to get hung up on the details.

Just as the plans and proposals for "recovery" by the LP / SF and the right-wing parties contain a strong element of wishful thinking if not downright deceitful cynicism, equally the cliched (how do I add an accent there??) rhetoric of the Trots is pretty unconvincing also.

Some broad strokes of the WP's programme would include:

- Progressive taxation (corporation tax, third personal tax rate, closing all tax avoidance loopholes and reliefs etc etc.).
- Creation of a national health service.
- State investment in job creation via expansion of public enterprise.
- Bringing togeter of semi-state companies into a State Holding Company to provide a critical mass to raise capital for strategic investment in indigenous industries and services.
- Public ownership of the natural resources of the state including renegotiation of existing oil and gas exploration and extraction contracts.
- Resolving Anglo / NAMA to the benefit of the citizens of this state at the expense of the bankers, developers, politicians and bond holders.
- Legally pursing those responsible for financial corruption under new and existing laws and agencies including the Gardai, Revenue Commissioners and a new Corruptions Assets Bureau including a rollback of existing laws which allow individuals to divest themselves of wealth to family members.

But again, to emphasis, even the above is really just a headline announcement of intent, it's not the meat in the sandwich which will transform the economy and society. It's not necessarily sexy stuff, it's not necessarily scary either, it's something that would resonate to some extent with progressives along various points in the political spectrum.

But this is not the full extent of what is required, it is just an initial starting point which is relatively simplistic and fits with the needs to explain a political position via the mainstream media etc.

There's no point in planning and documenting every last detail at this stage, because 99.99% of people won't care and because once we start moving society and economy in the desired direction the plans will immediately become obsolete anyway.

Either yourself or Cass have raised a comment here that the WP is "reformist" in proposing such policies. I'll counter this again by saying that the socialist future will be won only by pragmatically engaging in struggle at all levels, including using existing political structures to advance the position and material well being of the working class, while using such advances to move society and the economy to a point where a rupture with the existing model becomes achievable. It's all about the little steps and the big steps, and knowing where we're headed.

[C. Flower]

Of course times change and of course Irish politics is exceptionally fluid at this time. But ALL of the electoral changes that are taking place are happening within the mainsteam and not on the trotskyite fringe. That really is my point.

By all means attempt to bring the SWP and SP together and use them as an anchor for other non-aligned people, but the cold truth is (a) the electoral impact of such an alliance will be very marginal at best, and (b) the LP will have nothing to do with it. Sorry if that disappoints, but that's the reality, I'm afraid.

But no problems with Fine Gael?

I am beginning to see the possibility of a Labour Party split at some stage in the future, as other LP activists and members I have discussed this with don't all see it in the same way as you do. The LP is in any event a coalition and not all in it want an FG Government "with Gilmore as Taoiseach" or without.

I have good track record in this kind of scoping, and predicted FF meltdown and LP ascendancy back in 2008, of course laughed at at the time. :)

[PES activist]

PES,

Would you care to elaborate on which "other currents" you had in mind?

You seem to have already discounted SF. (As a WP member I would question anyway whether SF has any socialist depth or whether their Left-nationalist views will dissipate and allow them to migrate towards the centre without much internal angst once they get the sniff of a chance to get into government).

There aren't a a lot of other currents out there. Are you suggesting that some of the "local pork barellers", as you previously dismissed them, such as Finian McGrath and Maureen O'Sullivan, might find common cause with a LP / FG coalition?

Are you flying a kite in the direction of the WP? Not that we have any TDs at the moment! I won't be immediately dismissive of such a proposition. I'm not in the WP long enough to bear the scars of the DL episode, so no personal baggage, ok.

Just wondering where you're coming from?

I was responding to speculation on this thread about possible co-operation between Labour and this proposed Alliance. I was making the point that Labour won't be entering into any pre-election arrangements with any other party. That doesn't mean that Labour does not co-operate with other political groups. We have a formal coalition arrangement with SF on South Dublin County Council, for example. However, the trotskyite fringe and their front organisations are well beyond the bounds of co-operation with Labour.

Just a comment on pork-barrellers. I was not referring to Maureen or Finian, in spite of his repeated whiplash policy reversals. I was directing that comment at the FF/FG gene pool that run as so-called independents. By the way, I'd agree with your pen picture of SF's worldview and likely future trajectory.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I was responding to speculation on this thread about possible co-operation between Labour and this proposed Alliance. I was making the point that Labour won't be entering into any pre-election arrangements with any other party. That doesn't mean that Labour does not co-operate with other political groups. We have a formal coalition arrangement with SF on South Dublin County Council, for example. However, the trotskyite fringe and their front organisations are well beyond the bounds of co-operation with Labour.

Just a comment on pork-barrellers. I was not referring to Maureen or Finian, in spite of his repeated whiplash policy reversals. I was directing that comment at the FF/FG gene pool that run as so-called independents. By the way, I'd agree with your pen picture of SF's worldview and likely future trajectory.

Ok PES, thanks for clarifying.

I'd agree withyou on the FF/FG gene pool thing incidentally.

[Jolly Red Giant]

We have a formal coalition arrangement with SF on South Dublin County Council, for example. However, the trotskyite fringe and their front organisations are well beyond the bounds of co-operation with Labour.

How conviently you forget the decision of the Socialist Party to help elect a LP member as chair of Fingal Council - of course that must be tempered by saying that there is no formal 'coalition' arrangement on Fingal Council, a decision of the Socialist Party, not the LP.

[C. Flower]

How conviently you forget the decision of the Socialist Party to help elect a LP member as chair of Fingal Council - of course that must be tempered by saying that there is no formal 'coalition' arrangement on Fingal Council, a decision of the Socialist Party, not the LP.

Do the SP and Labour always vote together, on the Council ?

[Jolly Red Giant]

Do the SP and Labour always vote together, on the Council ?
No - The Socialist Party votes on each issue depending on its merits, irrespective of who proposes it.

[Apjp]

OK Apjp, I take your points, but the thrust of this thread is about two trotskyite parties, the SP and SWP/PBP acting as the principal anchors for a United Left Alliance. I was responding to those posters who were speculating about the possibilty of Labour being open to some sort of dialogue with this Alliance. The blunt fact is that Labour has no interst in any such dialogue.

Furthermore, there was some speculation that this Alliance could deliver a significant Hard Left bloc in the next Dáil ... again my view, for what it is worth, is that there may be one and at the outisde chance, possibly two such seats available at the next election. Such representation does not a serious impact make.

Ok, but I think such is the anger of people, that when it will become constructive-i.e. the SP may have upto five candidates, I think a PBP councillor said they will run at least three, and the Wp could run one in Meath-just off the top of me head that could be nine Td's with a voice in the Dail-and once you get a few TDs in you are listened to nationally, and internationally-and if you are genuine your numbers can grow. Personally I believe the votes will go roughly as thus-it is my opinion, and the order is what I believe will happen-numbers are obviously impossible to guess;

(out of 166 seats);
Labour 45
FG 40
FF 35
SF 23
SP 3
PBP 2
SWP 2
GREEN PARTY 2
DDI 1
FIS NUA 1
wp 1
INDEPENDENTS 11

[Apjp]

I dont know how you read that from my post. Let me summarise my views on electoral pacts and governmental arrangements.

1. There is no majority in the country for a Labour Party-ULA-SF coalition. That's just moonshine, my friend. Even if it were possible to bridge the differences between the mainstream Left and the trotskyite fringe, there would be no electoral traction in such an arrangement. Quite the opposite, in fact.

2. The most credible outcome of the election that would result in Labour in government, and even potentially leading such a government, is in coalition with FG. Does that make most Labour Party people happy? Short answer, no! Does it, however, represent the best opportunity for Labour to put its political programme into action and deliver the changes that our country needs? Well, yes!

3. Contrary to what you assume, this view has the overwhelming support of Labour Party members.

You mean, contrary to what I believe-from speaking with several labour party supporters. However, I do think if you ignore the fact that SF are running 43 seats-well when the IMF get in the door, we could have a Democratic Socialist govt in to boot the three main parties out. I just feel that this time, it goes beyond one establishment party from another-and Labour have a choice-they can do what they did in the 80s-and what happpened then can't be defended.-or they can quit calling every socialist party trotskyite and try and form a coalition that will not fall after less than one term-because how many times has a FG/LAB coalition lasted a whole term-only once! In the 80s when Lab and FG did what FF are doing now!!! delaying an election despite the country changing. In your defense, you have no defense.

[Apjp]

"Arrogance" is one of the jobbing accusations that the trotsyist fringe throw at successful mainstream Left political parties all the time. All it serves to do is illustrate the degree to which the fringe is so marginalised in Irish politics.

There is no likelihood whatsoever of seven ULA seats in the next Dáil. I can understand people talking up their own party's chances of success, but that is pure moonshine JRG, and well you know it. Joe is far from a shoe-in for the DW seat and the only other (very) outside prospect is RBB in DL. Beyond that, you're whistling in the wind.

And you think Labour are a shoe in is that right? That you have a god-given right to govern? And all of this bickering between who is really the 'left' disgusts me! Look at the mess Ireland is in, and you lot fight amongst yourselves-typical Irish divisiveness. If I am a voter I do not care about words like Right or Left which is just political media jargon for stereotypes. I do not care who is trotskyite, and who is pro-capitalist. I care about which of the parties has a plan backed by an ideal which can get us out of this mess-you PES are just talking down to people and not to them. If you are a councillor, then I feel obliged to run in the next local elections so that there is at least one less buffoon in office-if I am to believe your belief that this attitude of yours and these nonsensical policies are widespread in Labour. Come tO think of it-none of the local Labour councillor are ever seen at any local function except to get their photo taken! And only independent councillors do any work that has an impact on my local life in Meath east, Fingal North and Louth South. So why should I vote Labour then-or the Sp? I will vote in whoever I feel will make a difference-I am confident there will at least be one independent in 2012-and there will be no early election despite what Labour think, as FF will cling on-but if you are really speaking of the voice within, PES, then I really see no hope for the next coalition. Your obscenity though does give me a desire to change things-and take this country back from the three big parties that have ruined it for ninety years! I thought it was just FG and FF-it seems I was wrong. And who are you to tell us what we can and cannot do, and what will and will not happen? Remember, the Irish people make you and the Irish people break you in politics-I would watch the thin ice you are walking on-even if Labour have their day, I cannot see even our passive society standing back and letting the likes of yourself ruin things. And to the SP i say, do not fear compromise-or you will achieve nothing. However, my anger is certainly directed for the most part at FF, Fg and now some of you in Labour who think they have a god given right to run the show-no one does-and that goes for the Imf too. I might not be able to make a big difference myself right now, but I know there are thousands of people Out there who feel the same-THE IRISH PEOPLE WILL SEE THROUGH YOUR SPOOF.

[Apjp]

Must say I cant see any harm in the United Left Alliance. I'm sure the joint policy platform will be appealing enough. We don't know the full details of the Alliance yet.
With the locations of PBP and the Socialist Party candidates there will be no stepping on toes. (The Next Local Elections might be when that occurs)
The presence of Joe Higgins can be of great help to PBP and his appeal may help push a few extra voters in their direction.
As it stands on a good day they might win 5 seats (7 on a brilliant day)
Seamus Healy -Great Chance
Joe Higgins -Great Chance
Clare Daly - 50/50
Joan Collins - 50/50
Richard Boyd Barrett - 50/50

Declan Bree -small chance
John Dwyer -small chance
Gino Kenny -small chance
Mick Barry - small chance

Cian Prendiville - no chance
Is there anyone from Waterford I wonder, the likes of John Halligan (rumoured to have been approached by Labour) .

Interesting times ahead

Exactly at least the ULA are attempting to be unified and constructive in seeking real permanent change with good intentions. i think we can reduce our need to use the stock market for funds over time by getting fiscal, and hopefully when(and I say when) the punt comes back, monetary policies correct by protecting frontline services, creating sustainable employment, and lessening our dependence on FDI, whilst at the same time building up our international trade. I dont mean we need less FDI, I mean we need less economic dependence on it-we should have an equal balance of homegrown SME's-less PLC'S and more LTD companies, with heavy state supporting enterprise in maintaining and taking back the key economic mainstays, such as the majority of our banking system-whilst letting ANglo and INBS go. Banks that are solvent, should remain in the private sector, banks that could not stay solvent, and which can make us a return such as AIB and EBS, should remain in the public sector. I know that if the Socialist and the Democratic socialist parties work together, they can benefit the Irish people. If that makes me an idealist, guilty as charged. I have had enough of crony capitalism-I want a Democratic Socialist Republic. And, who is to say the WP won't win a seat in Navan too-they are growing in support in Meath Central.

[Apjp]

Left, you said;

Legally pursing those responsible for financial corruption under NEW and existing laws and agencies including the Gardai, Revenue Commissioners and a new Corruptions Assets Bureau including a rollback of existing laws which allow individuals to divest themselves of wealth to family members.'
YOU CANNOT TRIAL TRAITORS FOR ECONOMIC TREASON IF IT WAS NOT ILLEGAL AT THE TIME. YOU CANNOT TRIAL SOMEONE FOR WHAT WAS NOT THEN ILLEGAL. sorry, but my law class taught me this on the first day-unfortunately there is very little scope if any for punishing economic traitors-in fact from readin the 1939 act which is the only one, I do not believe they did anything illegal-unfortuantely they made the laws to suit themselves-what you can do is confiscate all of their perks and pensions in a budget. that would at least make some difference. I do not believe there is any law that FF as a barristers club left unexplored-the only able thing they have is suiting themselves
And we already have a CAB-you just need to have the laws in place to make sure this never happens again. The only thing we can get any of them on, in my opinion, is taxes and brown envelopes. You won't get them on treason-though I am guessing you know this.

[Apjp]

AJPJ,

As I've said before in a few threads here, I don't think there's any rabbit to be pulled out of a hat as a solution to the economic crisis.

No comprehensive "election manifesto" of proposals is currently available.

The WP will of course publish material with some broad strokes of critique and analysis ahead of the election, but I think it's inportant not to get hung up on the details.

Just as the plans and proposals for "recovery" by the LP / SF and the right-wing parties contain a strong element of wishful thinking if not downright deceitful cynicism, equally the cliched (how do I add an accent there??) rhetoric of the Trots is pretty unconvincing also.

Some broad strokes of the WP's programme would include:

- Progressive taxation (corporation tax, third personal tax rate, closing all tax avoidance loopholes and reliefs etc etc.).
- Creation of a national health service.
- State investment in job creation via expansion of public enterprise.
- Bringing togeter of semi-state companies into a State Holding Company to provide a critical mass to raise capital for strategic investment in indigenous industries and services.
- Public ownership of the natural resources of the state including renegotiation of existing oil and gas exploration and extraction contracts.
- Resolving Anglo / NAMA to the benefit of the citizens of this state at the expense of the bankers, developers, politicians and bond holders.
- Legally pursing those responsible for financial corruption under new and existing laws and agencies including the Gardai, Revenue Commissioners and a new Corruptions Assets Bureau including a rollback of existing laws which allow individuals to divest themselves of wealth to family members.

But again, to emphasis, even the above is really just a headline announcement of intent, it's not the meat in the sandwich which will transform the economy and society. It's not necessarily sexy stuff, it's not necessarily scary either, it's something that would resonate to some extent with progressives along various points in the political spectrum.

But this is not the full extent of what is required, it is just an initial starting point which is relatively simplistic and fits with the needs to explain a political position via the mainstream media etc.

There's no point in planning and documenting every last detail at this stage, because 99.99% of people won't care and because once we start moving society and economy in the desired direction the plans will immediately become obsolete anyway.

Either yourself or Cass have raised a comment here that the WP is "reformist" in proposing such policies. I'll counter this again by saying that the socialist future will be won only by pragmatically engaging in struggle at all levels, including using existing political structures to advance the position and material well being of the working class, while using such advances to move society and the economy to a point where a rupture with the existing model becomes achievable. It's all about the little steps and the big steps, and knowing where we're headed.

Ok, but I believe a bit of detail IS required. I mean, we know the rough figures-we have a deficit of fifteen-twenty billion, and the bailout is 50bn at present. There are your starting points-we start by saying how we will let anglo go to the wall, the financial savings it will incur, but also the plans that must be in place when it impacts upon borrowings-we must raise revenue internally. We have no sovereignty because it has been sold. The devil sold our souls without our agreement. My dream is living in a society that does not need to borrow-I believe we can plug the deficit very quickly by letting Anglo and INBS go, and taxing the right people. Suffice to say, most of Vincent Browne's policies-albeit how crudely set out they are-actually would mean the guts of ten billion being saved in one year whilst protecting the economy, though in my belief, the one thing I would do is cut corporation tax to ten percent, increase wages by 1.35e and this would have a marginal benefit for FDI. we could also use the 3.5 billion saved by scrapping pension relief to set up a small business support fund for young educated entrepreneurs jut out of college, and small Irish businesses looking to expand. We must lower the relief on bonds from the current 47 percent rate-though how much we can lower it by is something a qualified economist would know. As you know I am just a rookie with good ideas, and the same limited access to public figures as anyone else. But yes, you can give detail on the figures available.

[PES activist]

Personally I believe the votes will go roughly as thus-it is my opinion, and the order is what I believe will happen-numbers are obviously impossible to guess;

(out of 166 seats);
Labour 45
FG 40
FF 35
SF 23
SP 3
PBP 2
SWP 2
GREEN PARTY 2
DDI 1
FIS NUA 1
wp 1
INDEPENDENTS 11

That's really quite out of whack with what I've seen anyone else suggesting, Apjp, and the poll numbers would not support anything like this configuration.

Here's my wet-finger-in-the-air, don't-hold-me-to-it predictions for the next GE for minor parties and independents (following your pattern). I'm afraid seat distributon for the three main parties is far too fluid to hazard a guess at this stage in the electoral cyle. Labour's seat spread, for example, could range anywhere from 30 seats (20 currently) to the high 40s.

SF - Currently have 4 seats, of which they are odds-on to retain two and lose two (O Snodaigh in DSC and Ferris in KN). That will be compensated with one possibly two seats in Donegal. Outome is 3-4 seats in the next Dáíl.

SP - Joe Higgins may get back in DW, but he has quite a mountain to climb. There is an extra seat going there and Labour's second candidate, and poss even FG's, are as likely to take the seat as Higgins. There are no other seats where I could see an SP TD being returned.

PBP/SWP - Boyd Barret is the only possible success for the SWP, but he is even less likely to lift the seat than Joe Higgins is in DW. He will be competing with the second Labour and FG candidates for the fourth seat. Remember the constituency loses one seat at the next GE.

GREEN PARTY - they're in real trouble with only possible long-shot retention being Ryan in DS.

DDI/FíS NUA - no chance, I'm afraid. These are ultra-micro-parties with no profile or organisation whatsoever. Such candidates as they persuade to run will fare very badly indeed. No seats here.

WP - I've a lot of time for the Workers Party but I'm afraid they are highly unlikely to figure in the shake out for any seats at the next general election.

INDEPENDENTS - leaving aside the FF/FG pork-barrelling, gene pool, that leaves McGarth (DNC) who is very vulnerable and unlikely to retain his seat, and O'Sullivan (DC), stronger but also very vulnerable.

So, rather than the possible 46 seats that you suggest for parties other than LAB, FG and FF I can only count about half-a-dozen or so such seats in the next Dáil.

[Apjp]

That's really quite out of whack with what I've seen anyone else suggesting, Apjp, and the poll numbers would not support anything like this configuration.

Sorry PES, but the polls only measure the five in house parties at the moment-there is an Ireland outside of the Dail ye know!! ;)

[LeftAtTheCross]

And, who is to say the WP won't win a seat in Navan too-they are growing in support in Meath Central.

AJPJ, I admire your optimism :)

The WP has a decent shout in Cork with Ted Tynan and in Dublin with Malachy Steenson, and in Waterford also where there's a long tradition and a good support base.

Unfortunately I can see the LP and SF surfing the anti-government wave in Meath, with Senator Hannigan and Councillor Tobin respectively having a good public profile. And Meath being what it is of course FG will sweep up a big vote.

The point about Meath is that it has seen a huge recent population growth, very much as a product of the property boom, along with the other commuter counties, and now that the bust has hit it is suffering harder than many places with those young families with job losses, wage cuts, tax/levy hikes, and celtic tiger mortgages with negative equity.

So yes, there's a constituency which should be open to Left politics. The challenge is to convince people that the LP and SF aren't going to provide the solution...

[Apjp]

That's really quite out of whack with what I've seen anyone else suggesting, Apjp, and the poll numbers would not support anything like this configuration.

Here's my wet-finger-in-the-air, don't-hold-me-to-it predictions for the next GE for minor parties and independents (following your pattern). I'm afraid seat distributon for the three main parties is far too fluid to hazard a guess at this stage in the electoral cyle. Labour's seat spread, for example, could range anywhere from 30 seats (20 currently) to the high 40s.

SF - Currently have 4 seats, of which they are odds-on to retain two and lose two (O Snodaigh in DSC and Ferris in KN). That will be compensated with one possibly two seats in Donegal. Outome is 3-4 seats in the next Dáíl.

SP - Joe Higgins may get back in DW, but he has quite a mountain to climb. There is an extra seat going there and Labour's second candidate, and poss even FG's, are as likely to take the seat as Higgins. There are no other seats where I could see an SP TD being returned.

PBP/SWP - Boyd Barret is the only possible success for the SWP, but he is even less likely to lift the seat than Joe Higgins is in DW. He will be competing with the second Labour and FG candidates for the fourth seat. Remember the constituency loses one seat at the next GE.

GREEN PARTY - they're in real trouble with only possible long-shot retention being Ryan in DS.

DDI/FíS NUA - no chance, I'm afraid. These are ultra-micro-parties with no profile or organisation whatsoever. Such candidates as they persuade to run will fare very badly indeed. No seats here.

WP - I've a lot of time for the Workers Party but I'm afraid they are highly unlikely to figure in the shake out for any seats at the next general election.

INDEPENDENTS - leaving aside the FF/FG pork-barrelling, gene pool, that leaves McGarth (DNC) who is very vulnerable and unlikely to retain his seat, and O'Sullivan (DC), stronger but also very vulnerable.

So, rather than the possible 46 seats that you suggest for parties other than LAB, FG and FF I can only count about half-a-dozen or so such seats in the next Dáil.

SF are running 40-43 candidates next time around. I cant see them losing thirty odd elections based on bi-monthly polls alone-considering a lot of voters tend to shift as the election draws closer. Definitely, they will be in double figures.

[PES activist]

You mean, contrary to what I believe-from speaking with several labour party supporters. However, I do think if you ignore the fact that SF are running 43 seats-well when the IMF get in the door, we could have a Democratic Socialist govt in to boot the three main parties out. I just feel that this time, it goes beyond one establishment party from another-and Labour have a choice-they can do what they did in the 80s-and what happpened then can't be defended.-or they can quit calling every socialist party trotskyite and try and form a coalition that will not fall after less than one term-because how many times has a FG/LAB coalition lasted a whole term-only once! In the 80s when Lab and FG did what FF are doing now!!! delaying an election despite the country changing. In your defense, you have no defense.

I'm not sure I follow this, but (a) I have only referred to as trotskyite those parties who themselves use that term, namely the SP and SWP, and (b) there is no likelihood whatsoever of sufficient seats being won to support a coalition government being formed by Labour with support from SF, the Greens, other Left parties and assorted independents.

[Apjp]

That's really quite out of whack with what I've seen anyone else suggesting, Apjp, and the poll numbers would not support anything like this configuration.

Here's my wet-finger-in-the-air, don't-hold-me-to-it predictions for the next GE for minor parties and independents (following your pattern). I'm afraid seat distributon for the three main parties is far too fluid to hazard a guess at this stage in the electoral cyle. Labour's seat spread, for example, could range anywhere from 30 seats (20 currently) to the high 40s.

SF - Currently have 4 seats, of which they are odds-on to retain two and lose two (O Snodaigh in DSC and Ferris in KN). That will be compensated with one possibly two seats in Donegal. Outome is 3-4 seats in the next Dáíl.

SP - Joe Higgins may get back in DW, but he has quite a mountain to climb. There is an extra seat going there and Labour's second candidate, and poss even FG's, are as likely to take the seat as Higgins. There are no other seats where I could see an SP TD being returned.

PBP/SWP - Boyd Barret is the only possible success for the SWP, but he is even less likely to lift the seat than Joe Higgins is in DW. He will be competing with the second Labour and FG candidates for the fourth seat. Remember the constituency loses one seat at the next GE.

GREEN PARTY - they're in real trouble with only possible long-shot retention being Ryan in DS.

DDI/FíS NUA - no chance, I'm afraid. These are ultra-micro-parties with no profile or organisation whatsoever. Such candidates as they persuade to run will fare very badly indeed. No seats here.

WP - I've a lot of time for the Workers Party but I'm afraid they are highly unlikely to figure in the shake out for any seats at the next general election.

INDEPENDENTS - leaving aside the FF/FG pork-barrelling, gene pool, that leaves McGarth (DNC) who is very vulnerable and unlikely to retain his seat, and O'Sullivan (DC), stronger but also very vulnerable.

So, rather than the possible 46 seats that you suggest for parties other than LAB, FG and FF I can only count about half-a-dozen or so such seats in the next Dáil.

Perceptions based on misconceptions, but we are all entitled to our opinion, and maybe the people really are as assuming as you would have us all believe. I for one, think today is unlike any other day. i refuse to believe we are all under the whip of you three and the IMF. There is a country somewhere there you know.

[PES activist]

SF are running 40-43 candidates next time around. I cant see them losing thirty odd elections based on bi-monthly polls alone-considering a lot of voters tend to shift as the election draws closer. Definitely, they will be in double figures.

Well, we'll see. SF ran 41 candidate in the 2007 general election and secured only four seats. The number of seats a party wins is only "potentially" related to the number of candidates it runs. It is not a direct or predictable relationship at all.

[Apjp]

AJPJ, I admire your optimism :)

The WP has a decent shout in Cork with Ted Tynan and in Dublin with Malachy Steenson, and in Waterford also where there's a long tradition and a good support base.

Unfortunately I can see the LP and SF surfing the anti-government wave in Meath, with Senator Hannigan and Councillor Tobin respectively having a good public profile. And Meath being what it is of course FG will sweep up a big vote.

The point about Meath is that it has seen a huge recent population growth, very much as a product of the property boom, along with the other commuter counties, and now that the bust has hit it is suffering harder than many places with those young families with job losses, wage cuts, tax/levy hikes, and celtic tiger mortgages with negative equity.

So yes, there's a constituency which should be open to Left politics. The challenge is to convince people that the LP and SF aren't going to provide the solution...

I think we have to be careful. WE may not all be in tandem with Labour and the SF-but they may, in future, despite what PES says and believes(and I concede, to an extent I believe he is right about some within Labour) come across to the DS way of thinking that people in the WP, and people like myself have. And furthermore, there are marxists in Labour. My economics and communications lecturers from last year are two example. However, I have also seen the ugly side with an IMPACT union hack leader on high wages that teaches management in DIT(just theory in his class, nothing applicable to real life) attending the CROKE park agreement not on the basis of reform and cost saving whilst protecting the frontline services, but on the basis of protecting all public service pay-including people on hefty wages like his(rumored to be near a hundred thousand). So, that is the picture i have of labour. And Cass, I agree with the division possibility down the line-but it could be a few years and another catastrophe or two before we see that one.

And I am encouraged in that you believe you can win three seats outside of Meath, And I presume you are hopeful of winning one in Meath too? Certainly, Meath east could do with such a change.

[Apjp]

I'm not sure I follow this, but (a) I have only referred to as trotskyite those parties who themselves use that term, namely the SP and SWP, and (b) there is no likelihood whatsoever of sufficient seats being won to support a coalition government being formed by Labour with support from SF, the Greens, other Left parties and assorted independents.

Maybe not next time around, but at times like this, elections tend to come in quick succession, and we are at an unprecedented stage in Irish economic history, despite what the FF and FG hacks will tell you.

[Apjp]

Well, we'll see. SF ran 41 candidate in the 2007 general election and secured only four seats. The number of seats a party wins is only "potentially" related to the number of candidates it runs. It is not a direct or predictable relationship at all.

Good point-but in 2007 wasn't everyone thinking of not rocking the boat-foolishly? AND DID THE LABOUR PARTY NOT WIN LESS THAN 20 SEATS? So, if your party can potentially cash in and more than double their seats, i dont see why SF cant. The likelihood is, we are both wrong and SF will win 10-15.

[PES activist]

Good point-but in 2007 wasn't everyone thinking of not rocking the boat-foolishly? AND DID THE LABOUR PARTY NOT WIN LESS THAN 20 SEATS? So, if your party can potentially cash in and more than double their seats, i dont see why SF cant. The likelihood is, we are both wrong and SF will win 10-15.

Thanks for noting the point I made about the limited relationship between candidates and seats.

On your second point, the trends we are seeing in national opinion polls suggest that it is Labour and not SF that are the beneficiaries of the current political upheaval. You dismissed opinion polling before, but as someone who's relied on them for election planning for nearly 30 years, I can tell you that they are incredibly useful in showing trends in party support over time.

Those trends show Labour coming in at between 30 and the high 40s in seats terms at the next election and SF being lucky to hold their current tally. Sorry, Apjp, but that's what the numbers show!

[Jolly Red Giant]

Labour's seat spread, for example, could range anywhere from 30 seats (20 currently) to the high 40s.
The LP should win a seat in most constituencies and there are a couple of areas where they could pick up two. 38-44 range. However there is one caveat - opinion polls are showing about half the current LP support is very soft. The decision to committ to the 2014 3% numbers will mean the LP will have to demonstrate significant cuts which could undermine a significant amount of this support. Also the right-wing have yet to have a real go at the LP. Both FF and FG (along with the media) will go for the LP once the budget is out of the way.


SF - Currently have 4 seats, of which they are odds-on to retain two and lose two (O Snodaigh in DSC and Ferris in KN). That will be compensated with one possibly two seats in Donegal. Outome is 3-4 seats in the next Dáíl.
O'Snodaigh should hold - if he doesn't the seat will be taken by PBP. Ferris is in big trouble. Ferris needs FF to take such a hammering that they won't win a seat in that constituency if he is to hold. SF will win in Donegal, but McBrearty will probably take their other target. They have chances in a number of other areas - CNC, DNE and possibly one or two others. SF are suffering in the FG/LP squeeze and also because of their willingness to mplement cuts in the North.


SP - Joe Higgins may get back in DW, but he has quite a mountain to climb. There is an extra seat going there and Labour's second candidate, and poss even FG's, are as likely to take the seat as Higgins. There are no other seats where I could see an SP TD being returned.
The mountain you talk about must be an Irish mountain rather than the Alps or the Hymalayas. For Joe Higgins not to win a seat he would have to lose over half the vote he got in 2007 and it would have to go en-bloc to the second LP or FG candidate - not going to happen. Clare Daly has a chance in Dublin North. Ryan is a clutz of the highest order and is undermining the LP vote all the time. He will still win but the LP will trail the Socialist Party in the battle for Sargent's seat. On a really good day the Socialist Party could also have a chance in CNC.


PBP/SWP - Boyd Barret is the only possible success for the SWP, but he is even less likely to lift the seat than Joe Higgins is in DW. He will be competing with the second Labour and FG candidates for the fourth seat. Remember the constituency loses one seat at the next GE.
Boyd-Barrett could easily get squeezed in DL. Gilmore has to bring in a running mate if the LP are to reach their current potential, so RBB is dependent on FF losing both their seats to take one. PBP actually have a better chance in DSC - particularly if Joan Collins is the candidate rather than the SWP's Brid Smith.


GREEN PARTY - they're in real trouble with only possible long-shot retention being Ryan in DS.
I would think Sargent has the best chance of winning among the Greens (if he runs).


DDI/FíS NUA - no chance, I'm afraid.
I agree.


WP - I've a lot of time for the Workers Party but I'm afraid they are highly unlikely to figure in the shake out for any seats at the next general election.
I would agree - Ted Tynan will trail in behind SF's O'Brien and the Socialist Party's Mick Barry. The WP in Waterford (despite a long tradition) have finally secumbed to all the defections.


INDEPENDENTS - leaving aside the FF/FG pork-barrelling, gene pool, that leaves McGarth (DNC) who is very vulnerable and unlikely to retain his seat, and O'Sullivan (DC), stronger but also very vulnerable.
You have ignored Seamus Healy in South Tipp who has a very good chance of winning a seat - I would not rule out 1FG, 1LP and Healy in that constituency. Declan Bree also has a chance in Sligo. There has been serious in-fighting in the LP in Sligo that is undermining the LP campaign and SF appear to be a spent force which will assist Bree (Bree's big mistake was joining the LP in 1992 - if he hadn't he could have played a significant role in building a left alternative to the LP).


So, rather than the possible 46 seats that you suggest for parties other than LAB, FG and FF I can only count about half-a-dozen or so such seats in the next Dáil.
I agree - I would not expect more than 15 in any respect and it could be less than 10. Then again stranger things have happened and a week is a long time in politics.

[Apjp]

Thanks for noting the point I made about the limited relationship between candidates and seats.

On your second point, the trends we are seeing in national opinion polls suggest that it is Labour and not SF that are the beneficiaries of the current political upheaval. You dismissed opinion polling before, but as someone who's relied on them for election planning for nearly 30 years, I can tell you that they are incredibly useful in showing trends in party support over time.

Those trends show Labour coming in at between 30 and the high 40s in seats terms at the next election and SF being lucky to hold their current tally. Sorry, Apjp, but that's what the numbers show!

Ok, like you said, we will see. I have my own initiatives, you have yours. I just hope if you ever run for a seat in the dail and are elected you go beyond being whipped into closing hospitals, killing children, and throwing other people's monies down black holes. After all, if the Labour party has any credibility it will focus the majority of its attention on bridging the gap between the rich and the poor-and protecting Children and people from the monstrosity that is the HSE with new socialized healthcare. Things like this are what is needed now. I will soon find a party, but after all of our exchanges, I think you can see why it will not be any of the five main ones-even if two of them have potential to work with newer emerging parties in the future.

[C. Flower]

Is there any Left candidate standing in Donegal in the Bye Election ?

[Mick Tully]

Is the L/P WP and SF included in this, if so where were they, when they voted to top up their earnings in 2011, where is the protest. Left me A!!e.

[Lifeisagame]

Do you think it would be possible for me to film you when you go to REAL WORKING CLASS homes and spout your so-called intellectual drivel on the real people.
I Think College Debates are still more suitable for your dreams and I will be seriously interested to see you on the dole when reality hits and people want answers not ideoligies.
Please understand that the country is falling down around us and we want Reality. Is that too much to ask?

[C. Flower]

Do you think it would be possible for me to film you when you go to REAL WORKING CLASS homes and spout your so-called intellectual drivel on the real people.
I Think College Debates are still more suitable for your dreams and I will be seriously interested to see you on the dole when reality hits and people want answers not ideoligies.
Please understand that the country is falling down around us and we want Reality. Is that too much to ask?

The Realists are running the country. Why not ask them for answers ?

[Lifeisagame]

The Realists are running the country. Why not ask them for answers ?
True, but they are held in esteem by their supporters, I thought I did ask them the question. Furthermore, the people who debate the dreams of Philosophers must also be questioned.
Is that not reasonable?

[disability student]

Why no new left parties set up right now? Or are they having problems??

[Lifeisagame]

Why no new left parties set up right now? Or are they having problems??
Actually the real question is why new Partys, period?
Quite sad really, but that is Irish life for you. Engage mouth then realising that you may have to lead then dis-engage brain.
However, if you can get indefinite leave sure why not have a go and screw the result, particularly if you win then we are the result. If it was not so serious, you would laugh at the fact that a school teacher may run this country with ZERO business ability or knowledge.

[antiestablishmentarian]

True, but they are held in esteem by their supporters, I thought I did ask them the question. Furthermore, the people who debate the dreams of Philosophers must also be questioned.
Is that not reasonable?

Your assumption seems to be that other establishment parties don't operate according to a fixed philosophy: they do though, the ideology that informs all their actions is neo-liberalism, that the free market will fix all and needs to be let run loose with little regulation save where corporate welfare is needed to bail out those who 'overextended' themselves.

Plus, those of us who are socialists spend our time doing far more constructive things than just sitting around in universities or high-brow coffee shops as the general right wing media stereotype would have you believe. We spend much of our time out stomping the ground in working class communities campaigning on the issues that matter, such as the state of the health service, trying to mobilise opposition to the bank bailouts, and setting up campaign networks for the upcoming water charges fight. We are activists first and foremost.

[Lifeisagame]

Your assumption seems to be that other establishment parties don't operate according to a fixed philosophy: they do though, the ideology that informs all their actions is neo-liberalism, that the free market will fix all and needs to be let run loose with little regulation save where corporate welfare is needed to bail out those who 'overextended' themselves.

Plus, those of us who are socialists spend our time doing far more constructive things than just sitting around in universities or high-brow coffee shops as the general right wing media stereotype would have you believe. We spend much of our time out stomping the ground in working class communities campaigning on the issues that matter, such as the state of the health service, trying to mobilise opposition to the bank bailouts, and setting up campaign networks for the upcoming water charges fight. We are activists first and foremost.
Excellent, but I have a slight problem that you need to help me with. The majority of my staff are low education and low skilled, so if I take what you said as fact, could you please put it in English that I can help them with?
I would, not joking, be interested to see how this could be explained to them.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Excellent, but I have a slight problem that you need to help me with. The majority of my staff are low education and low skilled, so if I take what you said as fact, could you please put it in English that I can help them with?
I would, not joking, be interested to see how this could be explained to them.

That socialists are doers, not philosophers, and that we don't waste our time just talking about things, we try to change them too. Thats how we win support, also the idea that somehow we don't interact with ordinary workers is silly, if you look at the areas where the Socialist Party, the Workers Party and the Irish Socialist Network (among others) have electoral support bases, they're generally in solidly working class areas like Fingal, Mulhuddart and north side Cork City.

Also I think it's being unfair to assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree they can't understand complex political questions. Formal education isn't everything and life-experience is often worth as much as a piece of paper when it comes to understanding the way the world works.

[Apjp]

Do you think it would be possible for me to film you when you go to REAL WORKING CLASS homes and spout your so-called intellectual drivel on the real people.
I Think College Debates are still more suitable for your dreams and I will be seriously interested to see you on the dole when reality hits and people want answers not ideoligies.
Please understand that the country is falling down around us and we want Reality. Is that too much to ask?

If you ask me, I think you are very dismissive of ideologies which, in practice, could very well run Ireland better than ever before-I mean just stop and think about it, we have had the same two parties in government and main opposition since 1922-does that not say it all? They were, if anything, very realistic in how they ran the country in every generation, bar one-the last fifteen years. Now we have a shower of incompetents claiming to be realistic in charge and a mirror image FG with the same rubbish in different forms. It is ideas we need, and not telling others what they can and cannot do. I think that is just a symptom of the Irish system-knowing when you are beaten. That is the problem-no resilience in some people, particularly some who, through experience would be quick to dismiss today's generation. I understand your cynicism but Give us a chance, or else you will be stuck with these idiots forevermore-a solicitor's club and teachers running the department of employment..is that realistic enough for you?

[Prometheus]

Is the L/P WP and SF included in this, if so where were they, when they voted to top up their earnings in 2011, where is the protest. Left me A!!e..

Why is the WP included in this list? It is not in the Dáil and most certainly didn't vote in favour of increasing TDs salaries.

[C. Flower]

That socialists are doers, not philosophers, and that we don't waste our time just talking about things, we try to change them too. Thats how we win support, also the idea that somehow we don't interact with ordinary workers is silly, if you look at the areas where the Socialist Party, the Workers Party and the Irish Socialist Network (among others) have electoral support bases, they're generally in solidly working class areas like Fingal, Mulhuddart and north side Cork City.

Also I think it's being unfair to assume that because someone doesn't have a college degree they can't understand complex political questions. Formal education isn't everything and life-experience is often worth as much as a piece of paper when it comes to understanding the way the world works.

Totally agree with you there. We are being governed by educated idiots, who've broken the country.

We were told ad infinitum that they were geniuses or at least "very intelligent". In Ireland we're inclined to confuse "very intelligent" with "owns a suit".

[Apjp]

Totally agree with you there. We are being governed by educated idiots, who've broken the country.

We were told ad infinitum that they were geniuses or at least "very intelligent". In Ireland we're inclined to confuse "very intelligent" with "owns a suit".

Well, if people let solicitors and teachers run the country, what do they expect? On pure qualifications alone, you would vote FG-except their policies stink of selling all the public bodies to pay the national debt, and they are at civil war. I was in YFG, but at an interview with Richard Bruton, organized by the YFG in Dit, he dodged my question on whether a graduate tax would encourage emigration to better paying economies. If he could not even answer that, why should anyone believe him on the most important issues we face? Ultimately the selfishness of the capitalist infighting pushed me towards my beliefs now-and I am glad because of that. FG, FF, blue eminem, red eminem, they all wind up the same colour in the end...

People voted FF-they were duped but they were stupid too. Even when I was 14 I hated Bertie Ahern for what he said about suicide and on economists and those who advised against insanity from him and his happy crew. If I could tell this man was a liar at 14, why couldn't the voters? people need to be careful with their votes-but in their defense the choice is limited. However, I do not deny, Labour's bank policies seemed more appealing in 2008 than what we have now-I guess we can only all go to college now and talk about what should have been instead of reckless fecklessness from the wealthy, many professionals and powerful, and some naivety from the rest.

[antiestablishmentarian]

The ULA has been confirmed: candidates will be standing in at least 5 different cities. This is great news for the real left, as it will bring the formation of a new mass workers party one step closer. Although there are significant differences remaining between the partys, this co-operation shows that there is goodwill and a recognition that the common enemy, ie the capitalist establishment and their lackey parties FF, FG and Lab, need to be fought together. Although the joint programme is flawed as it doesn't contain explicitly socialist demands, it is a beginning for the building of left unity and hopefully a socialist programme can be eventually agreed on.

http://socialistparty.net/elections/537-united-left-alliance-to-challenge-at-general-election



The newly established United Left Alliance, which will be publicly launched at a rally in the Ashling Hotel , Dublin on Friday 26 November, involves the Socialist Party, the People Before Profit Alliance, the South Tipperary Workers and Unemployed Action Group and the Independent Socialist group of Declan Bree in Sligo.

The ULA is a joint slate or alliance of candidates that will put forward a real left alternative in the general election and challenge the austerity and capitalist consensus amongst all the parties in the Dail, Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the Greens but also clearly including Labour and Sinn Fein.

The Socialist Party also pushed that the ULA should be something that isn’t just geared towards existing groups. If it is to become something more, it needs to be open for any individual to get involved in it and to have a say. People can register to become a supporter and activist in the ULA, and hopefully the supporters register may be a step towards a membership if there is an interest in the challenge that the ULA is mounting in the months ahead. We would encourage anyone who wants to get involved to get in touch, or better still to come along to the ULA Launch Rally in the Ashling Hotel, Dublin on 26 November!

[Apjp]

I am actually in the WP now myself antie. Lets say we get a few seats in the next dail, and you get five or six. We could be looking at an opposition of just that small amount of TDs and SF! Consensus is contagious when you don't care(FF et al)

[antiestablishmentarian]

I am actually in the WP now myself antie. Lets say we get a few seats in the next dail, and you get five or six. We could be looking at an opposition of just that small amount of TDs and SF! Consensus is contagious when you don't care(FF et al)

Well, speaking personally, I hope ye row in with us and join the ULA. I'd like to see the WP and ISN join the alliance too as they have working class bases in areas.

[Apjp]

Ok, that might be good. But I hope that eirigi and the 32 csm arent joining-if you are against sinn fein, i am sure you are against 'look at me minehan' and her anarchist followers. personally, adams and mcguinness aside, I have time for many of the modern sinn fein spectrum, though I never talk politics with my grandad. He was always FF and says this shower is the worst crowd hes ever seen, and as a former diehard, he will never vote them again. Largely thanks to byrne who is an arrogant b-word as well as biffo et al.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Ok, that might be good. But I hope that eirigi and the 32 csm arent joining-if you are against sinn fein, i am sure you are against 'look at me minehan' and her anarchist followers

I doubt they'd join an alliance because of issues with the national question and the groups who are already in such an alliance. Nothing against anarchists per se but they wouldn't join an alliance like this out of principle.

[Apjp]

Ok, btw me granda knew about the bailout last week-i said before he spoke to me cousin catrina in the world bank who has IMF contacts apparently.

[Design for Life]

people want answers not ideoligies.

Indeed people want answers, absolutely. People always want answers when failed ideologies hit close to home and rightfully so.

The sad fact or rather inconvenient truth is that there's still an ideology at play (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics) and that's all that is being offered.

[BOZG]

Statement of the United Left Alliance (http://www.joehiggins.eu/2010/11/statement-agreed-at-the-foundation-of-the-united-left-alliance/ula-statement/)

[C. Flower]

Joe Higgins spoke briefly on the ULA on RTE Morning Ireland today.

The ULA hopes to have up to 20 candidates in the next GE.


Statement agreed at the foundation of the United Left Alliance
Nov 15

Building a Real Political Alternative



The economic crisis is resulting in an unprecedented onslaught on living standards, spiralling mass unemployment and a dramatic rise in poverty. Meanwhile billions is being taken from working people and given to bankers, builders and international speculators.

The newly formed United Left Alliance (ULA) is opposed to the governments’ bailouts and the slash and burn policies which are only making the crisis worse. In the general election we aim to provide a real alternative to the establishment parties as well as Labour and Sinn Fein, who also accept the capitalist market and refuse to rule out coalition with right wing parties. The approach of a Fine Gael / Labour government in power would not be fundamentally different than this government.

The ULA will be standing candidates throughout the country and we are inviting all people, campaigns and groups that want to fight for real change and who agree with our demands to become part of the Alliance.

The ULA:
Rejects so-called solutions to the economic crises based on slashing public expenditure, welfare payments and workers’ pay. There can be no just or sustainable solution to the crisis based on the capitalist market. Instead we favour democratic and public control over resources so that social need is prioritised over profit.
Those elected as part of the alliance will not do any deals or support any coalition with any of the right wing parties particularly Fianna Fail and Fine Gael. We are committed to building a mass left alternative to unite working people, whether public or private sector, Irish or migrant, with the unemployed, welfare recipients, pensioners and students in the struggle to change society.

The ULA has agreed the following key demands:
1. End the bailout of banks and developers.

The ULA says scrap NAMA and end the bailout of the banks and developers. Take the banks, finance houses, major construction companies and development land into democratic public ownership and use them for the benefit of people, not the profit of the few. Democratic public ownership of the banks would guarantee the savings of ordinary bank account holders but would give no commitment to pay the bondholders and financial speculators who helped cause the global crisis.

We want to use resources, including the huge numbers of vacant properties, to provide facilities and social and affordable homes for all, to buy or rent.

Reduce total mortgages and repayments to affordable levels to reflect the real cost of the property and outlaw repossessions/evictions of families from their homes on the basis of inability to pay.
2. Tax the greedy not the needy

Ireland is not a poor country. Massive amounts of wealth were generated during the boom. The problem is that such wealth is in the hands of a tiny superrich minority. We completely reject the notion that all this wealth has suddenly disappeared. It is also the case that many companies, especially multinationals, remain profitable.

The ULA stands for a progressive taxation system where corporation tax on the massive profits made in Ireland would be significantly increased, which together with a steeply progressive income tax would shift the tax burden from working people to big business and the rich.

We also demand a wealth tax on the assets of the rich, increases in capital gains tax and an end to all tax loopholes for the rich.

We oppose all stealth and double taxes including bin charges and plans to introduce water charges, a property tax, or a “household tax”. We oppose the inclusion of the low paid in the tax net.
3. End the jobs crisis

The ULA condemns the complete failure of the government and the private sector to preserve or create jobs. Their policies are deflationary and are making the jobs crisis worse.

We call for a real social development programme that could create hundreds of thousands of jobs building necessary infrastructure like public transport, green energy projects, broadband, child care, schools, hospitals, health centres and other community facilities.

We oppose plans to sell off state companies. Instead these companies should be used as the vehicle for job creation.
End the reliance on the private sector, use democratic public ownership of wealth and natural resources and the banks to provide jobs by the launching a state programme of industrial development and innovation to build the productive capacity of the economy. Take the Corrib Gas Field into public ownership.

Reduce the working week without loss of pay and create tens of thousands of jobs by sharing out the work.
No to compulsory work for dole schemes or fake jobs. We demand real jobs and a reversal of all the cuts in social welfare and benefit payments.
4. Reverse the cuts – Defend public services

The ULA says end the profiteering in health care. We stand for a properly funded and resourced public health system, free at the point of access and paid for through a progressive tax system. No privatisation of health services and end all subsidies to private care. No co-location of private hospitals on public hospital lands.

We demand proper state funding for a democratically run and secular education system, free for all from early childhood to university. For more teachers to reduce class sizes and special needs and language support so the needs of all children are met. End all subsidies for private schools. No re-introduction of third level fees, pay students a living grant instead.

No to the cuts in social welfare payments or pensions and no to the cutting, taxing or means testing of child benefit.
For a mass campaign by the trade union movement and the communities to reverse the cuts in public services.
We want real reform of our public services. Its time to stop copying failed private sector practices. We want an end to inflated salaries, bonuses and expenses for top public servants and politicians. We want a cap on salaries and full public scrutiny of public spending. Public services should be run democratically with the full involvement of the workers, the service users and the wider community.
5. Equality for all

The ULA supports equality for all and the elimination of all forms of discrimination based on gender, race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, disability or age.

We support a campaign by the trade unions to unionise all workers and for the legal right to trade union recognition.

End all anti-asylum seeker and anti-immigrant laws and bias by the state.Give asylum seekers the right to work and give both asylum seekers and

migrant workers the same rights as all other workers, to help fight “the race to the bottom” in pay and conditions.
We support full equality for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, including the right to marry for same sex couples.
6. Protect the environment

Despite the rhetoric, environmental destruction is continuing apace. We call for major state investment in developing renewable energy. Through public ownership and democratic planning, the economy can be redirected onto a sustainable path.

We need real reform of our planning system, so that people’s needs and environmental protection come before the profits of developers. We call for major investment in community facilities, waste management, recycling facilities and public transport.

We are opposed to incinerators as a solution to the waste problem because they pose serious health risks. We call for a proper integrated waste management plan, including a drastic reduction of packaging combined with a serious approach to recycling and composting.
7. Build a real left alternative in Ireland and Europe

The formation of the ULA is part of a process across Europe and internationally of the development of movements and organisations to fight the attacks on workers, the unemployed and the poor and to fight for a new vision for society.

We are opposed to the dictates of the EU and its neo liberal policies of curbing public spending and promoting austerity. The policy of driving down public spending to meet EU imposed targets will destroy jobs and lead to misery for workers, the unemployed and the poor. Workers did not create the debt and should not have to pay for it.

We are committed to building solidarity with workers across Europe to forge a new direction which puts the needs of workers and the unemployed before the greed of speculators and profiteers.

An important part of this is the urgent need to reclaim and rebuild the trade unions and to mobilise the power of workers though mass action. The approach of Social Partnership has left workers defenceless and has led to a massive transfer of wealth from workers to employers and must be scrapped.

Our elected TDs will give full support to those unions and workers who oppose the Croke Park deal and will use the Dail to raise the real issues that affect ordinary working people.

[Apjp]

They look promising.

[Binn Beal]

Sounds good

[moss]

Ok, that might be good. But I hope that eirigi and the 32 csm arent joining-if you are against sinn fein, i am sure you are against 'look at me minehan' and her anarchist followers. personally, adams and mcguinness aside, I have time for many of the modern sinn fein spectrum, though I never talk politics with my grandad. He was always FF and says this shower is the worst crowd hes ever seen, and as a former diehard, he will never vote them again. Largely thanks to byrne who is an arrogant b-word as well as biffo et al.


Seriously, any chance you can stop the sniping about eirigi and the 32 CSM.

You're a member of the WP ffs. Do you know their history ?
Do you know the history of FF ?
When did the stickies last decommission ??? 2010 was it ??

How many guns do eirigi have to decommission ??? None
The 32 CSM are a pressure group and nothing else.

You support the ULA ??
Why ?
What is the most important issue facing the 26C state at the minute ?? Have you seen whats in store in the 4 year plan ?

Please focus your mind and energy at the enemy and stop sniping at those who would have broadly similar aims as the WP regarding bailing out the banks.

If you wish to aim for opposition then the IMF/EU are in and own the state.
The only way to prevent this is for all groups opposed to atleast show some solidarity in a time of crisis.

[C. Flower]

Seriously, any chance you can stop the sniping about eirigi and the 32 CSM.

You're a member of the WP ffs. Do you know their history ?
Do you know the history of FF ?
When did the stickies last decommission ??? 2010 was it ??

How many guns do eirigi have to decommission ??? None
The 32 CSM are a pressure group and nothing else.

You support the ULA ??
Why ?
What is the most important issue facing the 26C state at the minute ?? Have you seen whats in store in the 4 year plan ?

Please focus your mind and energy at the enemy and stop sniping at those who would have broadly similar aims as the WP regarding bailing out the banks.

If you wish to aim for opposition then the IMF/EU are in and own the state.
The only way to prevent this is for all groups opposed to atleast show some solidarity in a time of crisis.

I would go further and say that it's also essential that the ULA pays full attention to the role of political and economic Imperialism in the system that its members oppose. The issues of sovereignty and imperialism aren't dead - they are more central than ever.

The ULA's website is up and running, although still under construction -

http://www.unitedleftalliance.org/

[Lifeisagame]

Personally I believe that new parties, even if I don't personally believe in their ideoligy, will be good for the Country. Not sure if there is the time or indeed money for them to make a major impact on the next election, but any sort of impetus will give them a launch platform for the future.
By and large a lot of the people joining these Parties are seeing that the Mainstream will not work here for a long time as they have lost the Total Trust of the Majority of Citizens.
Also, personally speaking, I believe that the next Government could fall on it's face well before their term is up.
They New Parties have a tough road ahead, organisation wise and I wish them well.

[C. Flower]

Poster for the launch of the United Left Alliance via Electiolit's excellent blog.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/poster-for-the-launch-of-the-united-left-alliance-on-monday-29th-november/

It will take place this Monday evening at the Gresham.

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ulalaunch.jpg?w=463&h=649

[Design for Life]

If Higgins, Boyd Barrett and Healy get elected that'll be a fabulous achievement. They'll have to get down to the nitty gritty of debate and language of argument. Can't just be relying on rhetoric and political theory unless you can provoke the other guys into revealing their hand, ie. the two factions of the business party conform to an ideology but don't openly say so.

[Design for Life]

2. Tax the greedy not the needy

Ireland is not a poor country. Massive amounts of wealth were generated during the boom. The problem is that such wealth is in the hands of a tiny superrich minority. We completely reject the notion that all this wealth has suddenly disappeared. It is also the case that many companies, especially multinationals, remain profitable.

The ULA stands for a progressive taxation system where corporation tax on the massive profits made in Ireland would be significantly increased, which together with a steeply progressive income tax would shift the tax burden from working people to big business and the rich.

We also demand a wealth tax on the assets of the rich, increases in capital gains tax and an end to all tax loopholes for the rich.

No numbers. You gotta put forward the numbers. Sean Healy's been doing the numbers for years and even he's cast aside in the debate/discussion.


Why are they opposed to Sinn Fein? That's gonna hamper transfers rather than help them. Higgins might get back in on transfers.Pity protest votes while mongos give their #1 to Lenihan.

[Apjp]

No numbers. You gotta put forward the numbers. Sean Healy's been doing the numbers for years and even he's cast aside in the debate/discussion.


Why are they opposed to Sinn Fein? That's gonna hamper transfers rather than help them. Higgins might get back in on transfers.Pity protest votes while mongos give their #1 to Lenihan.

Yeah I gotta side with design on this one. You wana tax first and foremost the rich fine. But I think without figures, you have no chance. I have some proposals of my own which i intend to put to the party before the election and see what they think-for example, a marginal increase in corporation tax by 1.5% and then a private sector deal to boost internal trade and supply to FDI, like a croke park for private sector workers and businessmen. I.e. if a reasonable minimum wage(maybe 9.50?) was provided, the corporation tax would stay frozen at 14% for the next five years and as well as that domestic suppliers would also be given first preference when produce is more readily available at home(though obv. that last part needs some help from the experts, but I believe it can be done). It is estimated that even a marginal 1.5% increase could result in nearly half a billion in extra revenue without meaning jobs losses and without hitting the poor. The best deals are win-win.

[LeftAtTheCross]

(1)
(2)You think the WP have a better website ? So what ? How many elected reps do you have ?

What, have we descended to "mine is bigger than yours" types of argument here?



Are the WP content with the inequalities in the Ireland today and with whats to come ? If not then they should have the wit to realise that changing a few gombeens for more gombeens in a semi independent state is not the way to go.

That's not the WP position. Not sure how you came up with that.



(4)From reading forums it seemed that the stunt was well recieved. Are you that squeemish that a bit of paint upset you ?

It was a stunt. It got Eirigi some publicity. Harney is a sh1te. Not sure it advanced the revolution much though.



It's hard to know whether you are a member of the WP tbh. I didn't think they could sink lower.

Now one of there members thinks the onus is on an organisation with no paramilitary links to prove their bone fide, 10 months after their ceasefire soldier friends from the 70's only recently decommisioned their weapons.

That would be the ORM, Official Republican Movement, not the WP. There may have been some shared DNA back in the day in the 70s/80s but that day is long gone, it's ancient history at this stage. The WP is about political change, not militarist distraction.

[Socialist Republican]

The problem with this Alliance is that it is not a united left alliance as the name suggests.

It is an alliance of two left wing parties SWP & SP with a couple of independents tagged on. Now that is fine in itself and I am not knocking it as there are many good socialists in there, but it is excluding from the start (deliberately for whatever reasons) some fairly significant organisations on the left such as the Workers Party, CPI, IRSP, ISN and Eirigi also.

[bormotello]

As usual, typical left wing populism in order to fool uneducated public and attract as much as possible votes from lazy voters, who think that somebody will fix country for them

End the bailout of banks and developers.
The only one good point –
default, burning all saving and reducing borrowing to zero will save country



Ireland is not a poor country.
Ireland is poor country. The only stable source of income is rent paid MNC’s, which consist of salaries paid to staff, pay for services, rent and CT. All together it is 17 Bn. There is no other stable source of income. All wealth what we seen before was coming through massive borrowings for property bubble.
17 Bn of rent from MNC’s plus 22 Bn of borrowings with multiplier 2.5 give us GNP about 100 Bn. When country will reduce deficit, then GNP will fail to 45 Bn.
And there is no way that country can afford to spend 110% of GNP


Massive amounts of wealth were generated during the boom. The problem is that such wealth is in the hands of a tiny superrich minority.
Most of wealth is in worthless shares and worthless property investments.



The ULA stands for a progressive taxation system where corporation tax on the massive profits made in Ireland would be significantly increased,
Not a bad idea to push MNC’s away from Ireland. People will be more then happy to see their incomes reduced by 95%, when GDP will fall by 75%



We call for a real social development programme that could create hundreds of thousands of jobs building necessary infrastructure like public transport, green energy projects, broadband, child care, schools, hospitals, health centres and other community facilities
Roads and schools will not bring any money to Ireland, it could work in self-sufficient country, but not in country which import 90% for consumer market



Reverse the cuts – Defend public services
Does it mean that country w\ill not survive without highest paid and most inefficient public services in Europe.
Again pure populism in order to steal PS votes from FF and LP





Reduce the working week without loss of pay and create tens of thousands of jobs by sharing out the work.
i.e infeciency will save country.
Question only who will pay for it

[moss]

First of, all my points that you are attempting to answer are replies to a member of the WP and it is in reponse to his assertions that my points where made.
Context being the key.




What, have we descended to "mine is bigger than yours" types of argument here?

The ones of Eirigi are considerably less so
Is what I responded to. It was actually a question on my part. I know eirigi have 1 elected rep. I don't know how many the WP have.
Perhaps you could inform me.



That's not the WP position. Not sure how you came up with that.

You seemed confused about the concept of a rhetorical question. Google is your friend.




It was a stunt. It got Eirigi some publicity. Harney is a sh1te. Not sure it advanced the revolution much though.

Are you a member of the WP ? Your comrade seems to think that militant language is a no no nevermind revolution.
It was an act of defiance on the part of LM. Good on her I say. Doubt anyone thought it would advance anything greatly.
Did you oppose the action ?




That would be the ORM, Official Republican Movement, not the WP. There may have been some shared DNA back in the day in the 70s/80s but that day is long gone, it's ancient history at this stage. The WP is about political change, not militarist distraction.

Ah so the sticks are still armed to the teeth then ?? Clubs must be doing well.

The only reason I brought up any arms is because one of your comrades thinks the onus is on eirigi to prove it's democratic credentials when it has never been involved in paramilitary activities.

The same cannot be said for the WP.

As I said, context.

[LeftAtTheCross]

I know eirigi have 1 elected rep. I don't know how many the WP have.
Perhaps you could inform me.

Just two at the moment. Ted Tynan in Cork, Davy Walsh in Waterford.



You seemed confused about the concept of a rhetorical question. Google is your friend.

No. My comment was that "that changing a few gombeens for more gombeens in a semi independent state" is not the WP strategy.


Are you a member of the WP ? Your comrade seems to think that militant language is a no no nevermind revolution.

Language use should be appropriate to the context. Lenin had words to say about Stalin's lack of etiquette. No need to lower tones here.



It was an act of defiance on the part of LM. Good on her I say. Doubt anyone thought it would advance anything greatly.
Did you oppose the action ?

It was a stunt. I'm no fan of Harney. I was happy to see her day ruined. but was it useful political work? Not really.


Ah so the sticks are still armed to the teeth then ?? Clubs must be doing well.

The militarists departed largely with the IRSP and later the ORM. I'd guess there's still some stuff put away for personal protection in the north in particular. It's not a concern for me one way or the other, the WP's commitment to political activism over the past 30+ years is sufficient evidence that progress must be achieved through political work.



The only reason I brought up any arms is because one of your comrades thinks the onus is on eirigi to prove it's democratic credentials when it has never been involved in paramilitary activities.

I'd accept that Eirigi hasn't been involved in paramilitary activities.



The same cannot be said for the WP.

That's true, but it's past tense, ancient history. FF & FG had roots in the IRA also, I don't see anyone making a big deal of that these days. Time passes, things change, move on.

[C. Flower]

This thread is getting a bit derailed by discussion ( I know, I'm in it too) about parties not part o the Alliance. New thread perhaps?

The United Left Alliance has issued a Press Release on the General Election : -


The People Before Profit Alliance, Socialist Party, and Workers and Unemployed Action Group (South Tipperary) have come together to provide a left alternative to the establishment parties in the next General Election.



The Alliance is based on an agreed policy programme available here.

In the general election, the ULA will mount a major challenge to Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour who back the proposed austerity measures in the Budget and in the Four Year Plan and also to Sinn Fein who are prepared to prop them up in a coalition government. We expect to run about 20 candidates

Candidates who have already been agreed include Cllr Mick Barry (Cork North Central), Cllr Richard Boyd-Barrett (Dun Laoghaire), Cllr Joan Collins (Dublin South Central), Joe Higgins MEP (Dublin West), Cllr Clare Daly (Dublin North), Cllr Seamus Healy (South Tipperary and West Waterford), Cllr Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West), Seamus O’Brien(Wexford), Mick Murphy (Dublin South West), Cian Prendiville (Limerick), John Lyons (Dublin North Central) and Annette Mooney (Dublin South East).

Joe Higgins (MEP) and Cllr Seamus Healy are former Dail deputies.

Further candidates who adhere to the policy programme will be agreed shortly.

The Alliance expects to secure the election of a number of deputies and to form a coherent group in the next Dail.

Socialist Party MEP, Joe Higgins (MEP) said:

“The outcome of the forthcoming election is almost a foregone conclusion insofar as Fianna Fáil and the Greens will be annihilated. Fine Gael and Labour’s sole virtue is that they are not Fianna Fáil yet they are wedded to the same cut back agenda for the next four years.

“However Fine Gael and Labour’s ability to carry on Fianna Fáil’s agenda will be greatly curbed if a movement of people power in the form of mass demonstrations and strikes is built starting at next Saturday’s National demonstration forces this government out of office quick time and sustains this resistance under the next government.

“Likewise the presence of a number of genuine left TDs in the Dáil offering a visible political alternative will be a massive pole of attraction to workers, unemployed and young people and can become a real factor in the unfolding crisis.”

Workers and Unemployed Action Group (South Tipperary), Cllr Seamus Healy said:

“We are determined to put in place a framework in which working people and the poor can give a political response to these attacks. We are ready for the fight and for the general election. But that will be only the beginning. We will not participate in Coalition with Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. In the following years we will expand our activities and widen our campaigns. We are open to new forces and groups. Come and join us in the fight. We will not rest until the interests of Irish workers, employed and unemployed, are the first priority in this country.”

People Before Profit Alliance’s Cllr Joan Collins (Dublin City Council, Crumlin) said:

“I welcome the formation of the United Left Alliance Now is the time to take to the streets in protest and on Saturday next , 27 November we have a chance to do it.People Before Profit and many others have strongly criticised the trade union leaders for not doing enough to mobilize against the cuts, but now this call has been made we all need to get behind it and send the strongest possible message to this rotten government. Get out Now!

People Before Profit Alliance’s Cllr Richard Boyd-Barrett (Dun Laoghaire) said:

“‘The IMF is not here to help the Irish people but to shore up the EU banking system. The wealthy have withdrawn billions from Irish banks and this poses a threat to the British, German and French banking systems.

“The so called IMF loan will be mainly directed at Ireland’s failed banking network to ensure it pays off its foreign creditors. But we, the people, will have to offer up our living standards to pay for all of this.

“In order to save Irish society, we need a new period of resistance. There should be mass protests to the Dail and this government should be driven out of office.Any incoming government should be told that the resistance to IMF inspired measures will continue and grow.

“The United Left Alliance offers a real alternative because it states openly that it will vote against water charges, property taxes, new PAYE taxes on the low paid and all other measures that force the majority of low and middle income earners to pay for this crisis. It is time that the super-rich paid the for the mess they have created.”

[Fraxinus]

Thats unbelievable nonsense mate. Do you actually believe that?

It's truely astounding actually considering the OIRA have never decommissioned.

Sounds like high horse politics akin to FG...Collins was a freedom fighter but anything after were murderers.

[moss]

Just two at the moment. Ted Tynan in Cork, Davy Walsh in Waterford.
Cheers


No. My comment was that "that changing a few gombeens for more gombeens in a semi independent state" is not the WP strategy.
I never claimed they did. The use of the rhetorical question should have made that clear.
Though the attempt by a member of the WP to marginalise and falsley demomise other legitimate political parties reeks of wanting to maintain the rotten staus quo.



Language use should be appropriate to the context. Lenin had words to say about Stalin's lack of etiquette. No need to lower tones here.
Yeah thats very interesting. Thanks.
So are you in agreement with your comrade that political parties that use militant language should be shunned ??


It was a stunt. I'm no fan of Harney. I was happy to see her day ruined. but was it useful political work? Not really.

mmmmm you seem to have used my quote, changed a few words and sent it back to me. Thanks again.



The militarists departed largely with the IRSP and later the ORM. I'd guess there's still some stuff put away for personal protection in the north in particular. It's not a concern for me one way or the other, the WP's commitment to political activism over the past 30+ years is sufficient evidence that progress must be achieved through political work.

tbh you're missing my point completely. I don't care about guns.

I care when members of the WP are hypocritical enough to suggest an organisation that has never had paramilitary connections be shunned until they 'prove themselves'
Bizzare given their history/present position.



I'd accept that Eirigi hasn't been involved in paramilitary activities.

You'd have to considering there is no evidence to the contrary and they have stated themselves they do not believe in armed action.


That's true, but it's past tense, ancient history. FF & FG had roots in the IRA also, I don't see anyone making a big deal of that these days. Time passes, things change, move on.

All very true.

Perhaps then you could attempt to educate one of your new recruits about these facts.

[moss]

Some true points have been raised about a lack of clarity on my points. Look, bottom line, if eirigi are political let them prove so at the ballot box. I will listen to people like yourselves with open ears. And the context of a generation long before mine is none at all moss-totally irrelevant. Maybe I did jump to conclusions, but certainly this is the widespread perception of eirigi, like i said, this is just an opinion, not defamtion, so i do not retract. i DID SAY PROVE ME WRONG, DID I NOT? Since when is an assumption an accusation? Ok, so you say you don't condoen violence of the nature that some people up north still do-i believe you. but please, say that you have more to your party than headline grabbing, then i will happily admit the fool was I, and apologize for my misplaced opinions. please, do so by not just covering people in paint-it might be funny but its stupid. then we can talk policy.

You made the accusation lad.

Prove it or retract it.

You are accusing a party of having paramilitary links that has never had any. No convictions, no guns.
Yet you are in the WP. Loads of guns loads of convictions.
Do you not see how hypocritical you are being.
you made the claim (or rather you wish to hide behind your claims of knowing what the general perception is) the onus is on you to prove it.

You have me confused with some one else.
I am not a member of eirigi and never have been.

I do reserve the right to use force of arms when and if required.

[moss]

This thread is getting a bit derailed by discussion ( I know, I'm in it too) about parties not part o the Alliance. New thread perhaps?

Apologies. Split the thread if you want, though I've said as much as I'm going to.

Some people are so feckin stupid or naive it's like banging your head of a brick wall.

[Design for Life]

The problem with this Alliance is that it is not a united left alliance as the name suggests.

It is an alliance of two left wing parties SWP & SP with a couple of independents tagged on. Now that is fine in itself and I am not knocking it as there are many good socialists in there, but it is excluding from the start (deliberately for whatever reasons) some fairly significant organisations on the left such as the Workers Party, CPI, IRSP, ISN and Eirigi also.

They're not really significant or credible organisations.

People before Profit & SP have gained many votes. What support do those highlighted groups have?

Seriously this is embarrassing to to say I'm of the left. More wings than a Chernobyl chicken - People's Judean Front tbh....



eirigi was founded in Dublin as a Republican Socialist Party.

Do you think all parties have to have military wings?

They're still an off-shoot of Sinn Fein. It's not like they just sprouted up out of nowhere.

[carolmon]

Poster for the launch of the United Left Alliance via Electiolit's excellent blog.

http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/11/25/poster-for-the-launch-of-the-united-left-alliance-on-monday-29th-november/

It will take place this Monday evening at the Gresham.

http://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/ulalaunch.jpg?w=463&h=649

I've seen plans for a launch today 26 November at the Aisling Hotel, can you confirm which is the official launch?

[moss]

Hi Leftatthecross and Prometheus.
While no fan of the WP I somewhat regret getting involved in the previous exchange with apjp. Now is not the time for petty squabbling.

I'd refer to my first post in the exchange.


What is the most important issue facing the 26C state at the minute ?? Have you seen whats in store in the 4 year plan ?

Please focus your mind and energy at the enemy and stop sniping at those who would have broadly similar aims as the WP regarding bailing out the banks.

If you wish to aim for opposition then the IMF/EU are in and own the state.
The only way to prevent this is for all groups opposed to atleast show some solidarity in a time of crisis.

I'd like to hope we can agree on the above.

[C. Flower]

I think I'm going to have to split this discussion, which is important in its own right, as its off th topic of the very interesting ULA.

Nobody seems to think it has any kind of a "wing". :)

[moss]

I think I'm going to have to split this discussion, which is important in its own right, as its off th topic of the very interesting ULA.

Nobody seems to think it has any kind of a "wing". :)

:D
Agreed

[C. Flower]

The ULA is to stand 14 candidates. On an internet poll this morning (no idea how many voted) they stood at 7% of the vote.

http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=155450952