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View Full Version : Irish Gov ECB Borrowings Paid Off 7.9 billion of Anglo Debt on Final Day Of Banks Guarantee ?



C. Flower
27-10-2010, 05:52 PM
The chickens continue to come home to roost. While we were told in September that there was a "Final figure" for bank bailout costs, this is patently untrue.

One item, posted about here on other threads today, was the repayment of Anglo Irish bonds which fell due at that time.

The Irish Government Nationalised not a bank, in Anglo, but a quagmire of unquantifiable liabilities.

Another such potential liability is this 10 billion of poorly secured loans by the State to Anglo Irish Bank.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2761


[quote]From the Journal.ie

Quote from the Journal.ie removed pending clarification.

[QUOTE]Updated 16.47

disability student
27-10-2010, 05:57 PM
The chickens continue to come home to roost. While we were told in September that there was a "Final figure" for bank bailout costs, this is patently untrue.

One item, posted about here on other threads today, was the repayment of Anglo Irish bonds which fell due at that time.

The Irish Government Nationalised not a bank, in Anglo, but a quagmire of unquantifiable liabilities.

Another such potential liability is this 10 billion of poorly secured loans by the State to Anglo Irish Bank.

http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2761

Was that part of creative accounting that Enron excelled at??

C. Flower
27-10-2010, 06:44 PM
Was that part of creative accounting that Enron excelled at??

Worse than that, in a way. It appears just to be a liability of Anglo Irish Bank that fell due and was paid out.

Why the Government failed to mention it is another question.

I think its time that we at least tried to total up the real costs, so far as they're known of the bank bail out in Ireland.

C. Flower
27-10-2010, 07:29 PM
Statement from Alan Kelly, who seems to be pushing these issues.



STATEMENT BY ALAN KELLY MEP

Labour MEP for Munster/Ireland South
Wednesday, October 27th, 2010

WAS €7.9 BILLION OF ECB MONEY USED DIRECTLY FOR ANGLO BANK DEBT? - ALAN KELLY


Labour MEP, Alan Kelly, will be seeking an answer to further market speculation that the government used ECB funds to repay Anglo Irish debt last month.

"With Irish bond yields rising again, we are still being left with huge questions over Anglo Irish Bank.

"Speculation is surfacing that the Government used €7.9 billion of ECB money to directly pay Anglo Bank debt on September 30th last.

"This is appearing on reputable sites such as thejournal.ie and many respected economists such as Constantin Gurdgiev and Brian Lucey are referring to it online.

"I have been contacted by several people on this since I met with Commissioner Almunia last month. If true it would raise a number of serious issues and should be clarified. Brian Lenihan should clarify at this stage if Anglo bonds were repaid on September 30th and if do did the government seek EU approval. The Government need to tell us what they did on the matter.

"For example, did the government keep the Commission informed of their actions? State borrowing for paying bank debt would create concerns over EU competition law and may require EU approval yet we heard nothing.

"Once again we have absolutely no transparency with what is happening to our taxpayers money. It seems to just disappear into a vast hole for banking and won't return. Yet the taxpayers will have to pick up the bill.

"I intend tabling a number of questions to the Commission to establish what exactly is going on here.”

Captain Con O'Sullivan
27-10-2010, 07:36 PM
The attempted separation of Cowen's figure of 29billion and this amount by the DoF is alarming. I note as well that the DoF got a spokeswoman to make a statement on this. Does this mean that another senior figure in the Government has now retreated from the media and is hiding behind a press officer?

If we borrowed 7billion from the ECB which is as far as I know the only source of funding available at 6%(?) and then paid off a debt due on Anglo's books then surely statements Lenihan has been making to the Oireachtas about the cost of Anglo are false?

That's a clear resignation issue.

Newsy
27-10-2010, 08:11 PM
When is there going to be ANY journalist with a bit of clout.....going to bring out MAJOR issues, such as these into the main.

On radio or tv. I haven't seen a thing about this.

There is such a BLANKET of silence of what IS REALLY GOING ON that that IS REALLY AN ABSOLUTE SCANDAL.

C. Flower
27-10-2010, 09:59 PM
The attempted separation of Cowen's figure of 29billion and this amount by the DoF is alarming. I note as well that the DoF got a spokeswoman to make a statement on this. Does this mean that another senior figure in the Government has now retreated from the media and is hiding behind a press officer?

If we borrowed 7billion from the ECB which is as far as I know the only source of funding available at 6%(?) and then paid off a debt due on Anglo's books then surely statements Lenihan has been making to the Oireachtas about the cost of Anglo are false?

That's a clear resignation issue.

Interestingly, Joan Burton said today in her Dail speech that when she visited the DoF, she had the impression that the staff were in a deep depression and paralysed. She said that there was no D o F plan for dealing with the crisis and getting even basic figures out of them was difficult.

These were little gods not too long ago. Even in the 90s, DoF civil servants thought they were a special breed apart, there was no talking to them.

God only knows what is and isn't being done.

ang
27-10-2010, 10:04 PM
Update:-

GTCost:-



DofF have confirmed to a newspaper: Anglo redeemed bondholders as a part of 'normal funding operations' that 'doesn't impact on nat debt'

Fing Fers
27-10-2010, 10:28 PM
Not sure about all this, am I right in saying, Clowen and Lendahand got 7.9 billon from the ECB to pay off some of AIB's debts without telling us? and that 7.9 billon is gone, never to return?

Nipper
27-10-2010, 10:42 PM
Not sure about all this, am I right in saying, Clowen and Lendahand got 7.9 billon from the ECB to pay off some of AIB's debts without telling us? and that 7.9 billon is gone, never to return?


I read it as Anglo Borrowed from ECB (NAMA bonds used as collatoral?)

Anglo then use this cash to pay Bondholders.

C. Flower
27-10-2010, 10:55 PM
Update:-

GTCost:-

This seems to have been what @ubfid was saying - that it was the normal redemption of bonds when due.

I wouldn't be completely clear about it yet.

The Journal said it was confirmed by the D o F.

A misunderstanding, on one side or the other ?

Ah Well
27-10-2010, 10:57 PM
This seems to have been what @ubfid was saying - that it was the normal redemption of bonds when due.

I wouldn't be completely clear about it yet.

The Journal said it was confirmed by the D o F.

A misunderstanding, on one side or the other ?

Journal.ie have it seems pulled this story - this appears to have been the link ...

=> http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-borrowed-e8bn-while-lenihan-announced-final-banking-cost-2010-10/

PaddyJoe
27-10-2010, 11:57 PM
Irish Daily Mail running with it on front page Thursday as 'Lenihan 8 billion secret pay off to bondholders" according to VB show.

ang
28-10-2010, 12:00 AM
Latest update from twitter:-


brianmlucey

@angpolitical @sendboyle ts a maturing of bonds. But usually they're rolled over not replaced with interbank. But #anglo is different

Ah Well
28-10-2010, 12:00 AM
Irish Daily Mail running with it on front page Thursday as 'Lenihan 8 billion secret pay off to bondholders" according to VB show.

Cue a round of Who are these Bondholders (as opposed to the Guido Fawkes revealed ones)

ang
28-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Cue a round of Who are these Bondholders (as opposed to the Guido Fawkes revealed ones)

Exactly, who has just been paid off !!!!

Fing Fers
28-10-2010, 12:25 AM
Cue a round of Who are these Bondholders (as opposed to the Guido Fawkes revealed ones)


The two Brians should take a trip to MABS where they'll be told "for free" you cant borrow your way out of debt. ******* idiots.

C. Flower
28-10-2010, 12:45 AM
I'm going to wait and see what's said on this tomorrow. It's still very unclear and may turn out to be less (or more) dramatic than appears at first impression.

C. Flower
28-10-2010, 12:49 AM
As the journal.ie has taken its story, I'm going to remove it from the OP, until there's some clarification as to why they took it down.

C. Flower
28-10-2010, 04:04 PM
Thejournal has published a Government "clarification" that Anglo Irish has "paid this back" to Government by a number of means including issuance of new debt.

We own Anglo Irish - so who is Peter robbing to pay Paul ??? - http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-borrowed-e8bn-while-lenihan-announced-final-banking-cost-2010-10/

disability student
28-10-2010, 11:48 PM
And all happened on black Thursday, the day they officially announced that they kind of knew we were f*cked.

They expected this to fly under the radar.

Yeah i noticed that re Black Thursday as they were of hoping that we didn't see that payment. That's FF black arts for you as they are far more dirtier organisation than we think. Not to be trusted at all even their votes.:rolleyes:

Ah Well
29-10-2010, 12:29 AM
That's FF black arts for you as they are far more dirtier organisation than we think.

No - they're basically the Devil Incarnate - that's covers all. And doesn't need to be expanded upon either.

Captain Con O'Sullivan
29-10-2010, 10:16 AM
Thejournal has published a Government "clarification" that Anglo Irish has "paid this back" to Government by a number of means including issuance of new debt.

We own Anglo Irish - so who is Peter robbing to pay Paul ??? - http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-borrowed-e8bn-while-lenihan-announced-final-banking-cost-2010-10/

Well it is a con then. No-one on the international scene will accept Anglo paper. If the Irish government are taking IOUs from Anglo they are the only ones in the market for that rubbish. Anglo is a bank supposedly being wound down over time.

Its as trustworthy as a Callely mobile phone claim.

Ah Well
29-10-2010, 10:28 AM
ECB are the only buyers for the junk.

Yup - keeping the Dependency ticking over in some sort of basic shape or form - for now ....

Rich
29-10-2010, 10:50 AM
Thejournal has published a Government "clarification" that Anglo Irish has "paid this back" to Government by a number of means including issuance of new debt.

We own Anglo Irish - so who is Peter robbing to pay Paul ??? - http://www.thejournal.ie/anglo-borrowed-e8bn-while-lenihan-announced-final-banking-cost-2010-10/

How can I pay myself back?

One Government entity has written another Government entity an IOU. It is in essence internal trading and therefore does not represent a real payment/repayment to the Government at all. In accounting, if we were preparing Group accounts for the entire Government of Ireland the first thing that would happen would be that all amounts owed between Government entities would be offset against one another, giving them a net value of zero.

Anglo issuing paper to the Government has a net value of zero, the only "real" transaction that happened was more than €7Bn was paid to external bond holders from our pockets.

That truly is smoke and daggers! (Bertie was good for something).

C. Flower
31-10-2010, 04:25 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-says-it-has-repaid-euro79bn-of-bonds-in-full-2399524.html

The Government has confirmed that the bondholders have been paid in full.

ang
31-10-2010, 09:51 PM
Can't say there is any surprise there Cactus. That has been the purpose from day 1.

Latest thoughts from FT on Anglo Bonds:-


Not before time, it has dawned on the government that the Irish people should not spare Anglo’s creditors the cost of the foolish eagerness with which they funded the bank’s real estate punts. After burning €29bn of taxpayer money Dublin has found the gumption to let Anglo pick a fight with investors one rank up from the already-wiped-out private shareholders.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/971c7582-e529-11df-8e0d-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=htt p%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F971c7582-e529-11df-8e0d-00144feabdc0.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2F

Apjp
31-10-2010, 10:00 PM
Traitors, traitors all!!!! :(

youngdan
31-10-2010, 10:17 PM
I read it as Anglo Borrowed from ECB (NAMA bonds used as collatoral?)

Anglo then use this cash to pay Bondholders.


That was the reason NAMA was set up. I explained that 2 years ago when it was introduced.

C. Flower
25-06-2013, 10:09 PM
Just re-reading this with interest.

:(