Ireland; State Suspicion Cured By Local Power?

[Fraxinus]

The recent death of a bachelor neighbour got me thinking about people's attitude towards the state and the weak sense of nationhood we seem to have in the country.

The man was elderly, odd, had little relatives and people wondered whether he made a will or not. The main conclusion from most people was that hopefully he left his land to someone so the state wouldn't get their hands on it. There's such an amazingly huge resentment and suspicion to this "alien" state.

From using green diesel, to fiddling figures to get college grants, working while on the dole, the main aim seems to be to constantly pull one over on customs, social welfare and revenue. The same people pulling all the strokes are then on hospital protests, wondering how the state can't afford to keep them open!

I'm sure this behaviour is not unique to the west. But why do people feel such a detachment from the state? It's often speculated that it's down to the fact the the old Gaelic tribe system never fully went away, in which political power was never really centralized and when centralized government was introduced, it was forcibly brought in by a foreign power.
So if centralized government seems to be something that we hold with such disdain and is clearly not working well, would Ireland be much better off as a federal nation? This, as RSF have proposed, could also have benefits in potentially re-incorporating the 6 Counties more easily.

For all our faults, there is certainly a great sense of community still left, in most rural and small town spots anyway. Never better observed when a person comes down with a serious illness and needs to raise money to go abroad for treatment, helping bereaved families after tragic deaths and even the tidy towns movement. People do seem to work a lot better on a local level.

So would local devolution work well for us or would the same problems with governance follow us on to the local field as well?

[C. Flower]

The recent death of a bachelor neighbour got me thinking about people's attitude towards the state and the weak sense of nationhood we seem to have in the country.

The man was elderly, odd, had little relatives and people wondered whether he made a will or not. And the main conclusion from most people was that hopefully he left his land to someone so the state wouldn't get their hands on it. There's such an amazingly huge resentment and suspicion to this "alien" state.

From using green diesel, to fiddling figures to get college grants, working while on the dole, the main aim seems to be to constantly pull one over on customs, social welfare and revenue. The same people pulling all the strokes are then on hospital protests, wondering how the state can't afford to keep them open!

I'm sure this behaviour is not unique to the west. But why do people feel such a detachment to the state? It's often speculated that it's down to the fact the the old Gaelic tribe system never fully went away, in which political power was never really centralized and centralization was forcibly brought in by a foreign power.
So if centralized government seems to be something that we hold with such disdain and is clearly not working well, would Ireland be much better off as a federal nation? This, as RSF have proposed, could also have benefits in potentially re-incorporating the 6 Counties more easily.

For all our faults, there is certainly a great sense of community still left, in most rural and small town spots anyway. Never better observed when a person comes down with a serious illness and needs to raise money to go abroad for treatment, tragic deaths and even the tidy towns movement. People do seem to work a lot better on a local level.

So would local devolution work well for us or would the same problems with governance follow us on to the local field as well?


I'm normally optimistic, was so yesterday and will be tomorrow, but there is a lot of dysfunction here and the idea that this is all overcome by great gestures of community spirit has left me.

The floods were a revelation. People were abandoned to cope in impossible situations, there was no attempt to warn them even when local authority had days notice of floods. It struck me forcibly that Pakistan with great poverty was able to move millions out of harms way and we couldn't move a few hundred.

There were people on this site who were seriously making efforts to find a way to help and the mechanisms weren't there. My feelings were that any political party worth its salt would have got its fit young members down to Cork and Clonmel to offer help.

The ruined floodwalls still aren't rebuilt in Cork City and the dirt and detritus is still lying beside them.

Irish society is a lot about them and us, and people with problems (often not of their own making) are quite usually described as scum. We have a lot of mending to do.

[Fraxinus]

I'm normally optimistic, was so yesterday and will be tomorrow, but thre is a lot of disfunction here and the idea that this is all overcome by great gestures of community spirit has left me.

The floods were a revelation. People were abandoned to cope in impossible situations, there was no attempt to warn them even when local authority had days notice of floods. It struck me forcibly that Pakistan with great poverty was able to move millions out of harms way and we couldn't move a few hundred.

There were people on this site who were seriously making efforts to find a way to help and the mechanisms weren't there. My feelings were that any political party worth its salt would have got its fit young members down to Cork and Clonmel to offer help.

The ruined floodwalls still aren't rebuilt in Cork City and the dirt and detritus is still lying beside them.

Irish society is a lot about them and us, and people with problems (often not of their own making) are quite usually described as scum. We have a lot of mending to do.

The flood situation was ridiculous. Complete breakdown of state services. The cold spell wasn't much better either even though I don't think it damaged communities as much as the floods. But only a few weeks ago local communities in the midlands were asking to have access to salt and grit this winter to save councils doing the work or making sure areas they mightn't get to were done. Turned down point blank on health and safety grounds...amazing.

[Ah Well]

The ruined floodwalls still aren't rebuilt in Cork City and the dirt and detritus is still lying beside them

Correct - here it is in all its finery, almost 12 months on ... decomposing sandbags. If a deluge hits Cork anytime soon easy enough to figure out what will happen here. A pretty damning image of incompetence in this country and the inability to sort things out

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/tile/2010/1014/1224281063452_1.jpg

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1014/1224281063452.html

[charley]

The state cares little for anything outside Dublin.
Autonomous regions are the only answer.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I think the Fraxinus has gone straight to the heart of much of our cultural difficulties with that OP.

I also think that our cultural instinct leans naturally away from a sense of nationhood and towards regard for the Sept. This isn't surprising when you consider that for the vast sweep of time we operated a society based on family, sept, region and then island. Democracy requires a sense of community beyond those concepts and I agree it is very shakey in certain areas of the country, most notably and significantly in the rural areas.

Democracy itself only began to form as a response to outside threats from the Persian Empire in the scattered towns of ancient Greece and perhaps its first victory over oppression may have been at Marathon when a small fleet defeated an enormous one by cooperation and subsumed selfishness into a greater principle.

Irish people only seem to cohere when faced with an external threat and much of the rest of the time seem to revert to the model of local loyalty only. Even our national politics is diverted by old tribal loyalties and you can see on this forum and others people arguing for Fianna Fail in particular in the face of known corruption and downright thievery by their petty chieftains.

Britain never invaded Ireland. The British were invited in by local kings to settle local battles and realised very quickly that the Irish were easy to set at each other's throats and so could be conquered by an organised campaign. The church realised the same and profited immensely by the divide and conquer rule when they came. There is no record of a sectarian battle in Ireland before christianity arrived. Cattle rustling and counting coup like the Native American tribes but the concept of battle between convert and evil pagan did not exist before the church arrived. Again we were divided and again we were conquered.

Our political history is factional beyond belief. I would say that Fraxinus may be right also in that we may have to build again from local level to recognise the value in cooperation. Everything that is bad in our history has either come from an alien external force or been imposed on us from above.

Perhaps this national crisis may provoke a sense of having to find local solutions and even there we may have a battle.

To use the example from this thread the flood repairs in Cork are a joke. But if local unemployed but skilled workers somehow managed to get the materials and started to build better defences there'd be an army of officials down on them in seconds. HSE. Local authority. Social welfare saying that if they are not available for work elsewhere then they can't draw dole etc. No repairs beyond the temporary done but you can imagine the red-tape brigade turning up pronto to stick their noses in should people start fixing things themselves.

So local knowledge and skills might have to take on national bureaucracy before it can take control of infrastructure in its area.

But Fraxinus is right. We're going to have to get over ourselves and grow up politically before we can talk really about practical democracy in Ireland.

[C. Flower]

Just to pile some coal on the fire, this traveller blog, without any resentment, puts paid to the myth of that we are in some way friendly and welcoming to visitors beyond the norm.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/travel/24ireland.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all

Ireland can be a very lonely country for visitors and newcomers. We're clannish and exclusive. From the next parish can be too foreign.

Maybe this has changed in Dublin in the last decade, but in most of Ireland, people cling grimly on to the security blanket of only dealing people they have known from birth.

Perhaps this crisis will force us to break out of these medieval attitudes, described so well by Captain Con and learn to rely on the generosity of strangers and trust in the actions of thousands of people we don't know, but who are in the same boat as ourselves.

[Ah Well]

Just to pile some coal on the fire, this traveller blog, without any resentment, puts paid to the myth of that we are in some way friendly and welcoming to visitors beyond the norm.

http://travel.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/travel/24ireland.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all

Ireland can be a very lonely country for visitors and newcomers. We're clannish and exclusive. From the next parish can be too foreign.

Maybe this has changed in Dublin in the last decade, but in most of Ireland, people cling grimly on to the security blanket of only dealing people they have known from birth.

Perhaps this crisis will force us to break out of these medieval attitudes, described so well by Captain Con and learn to rely on the generosity of strangers and trust in the actions of thousands of people we don't know, but who are in the same boat as ourselves.

He mentions Cronin's Yard (or more so not finding it)

I know it well (having climbed Carrauntoohill 3 times) - nice long windy drive in there alright :D

Haven't been there for a few years and see they've erected a few footbridges :eek: - Huh pampering for the lazy, what happened to the days of having to clamber/fall down river edges to get to the other side ;)

[Fraxinus]

I think the Fraxinus has gone straight to the heart of much of our cultural difficulties with that OP.

I also think that our cultural instinct leans naturally away from a sense of nationhood and towards regard for the Sept. This isn't surprising when you consider that for the vast sweep of time we operated a society based on family, sept, region and then island. Democracy requires a sense of community beyond those concepts and I agree it is very shakey in certain areas of the country, most notably and significantly in the rural areas.

Democracy itself only began to form as a response to outside threats from the Persian Empire in the scattered towns of ancient Greece and perhaps its first victory over oppression may have been at Marathon when a small fleet defeated an enormous one by cooperation and subsumed selfishness into a greater principle.

Irish people only seem to cohere when faced with an external threat and much of the rest of the time seem to revert to the model of local loyalty only. Even our national politics is diverted by old tribal loyalties and you can see on this forum and others people arguing for Fianna Fail in particular in the face of known corruption and downright thievery by their petty chieftains.

Britain never invaded Ireland. The British were invited in by local kings to settle local battles and realised very quickly that the Irish were easy to set at each other's throats and so could be conquered by an organised campaign. The church realised the same and profited immensely by the divide and conquer rule when they came. There is no record of a sectarian battle in Ireland before christianity arrived. Cattle rustling and counting coup like the Native American tribes but the concept of battle between convert and evil pagan did not exist before the church arrived. Again we were divided and again we were conquered.

Our political history is factional beyond belief. I would say that Fraxinus may be right also in that we may have to build again from local level to recognise the value in cooperation. Everything that is bad in our history has either come from an alien external force or been imposed on us from above.

Perhaps this national crisis may provoke a sense of having to find local solutions and even there we may have a battle.

To use the example from this thread the flood repairs in Cork are a joke. But if local unemployed but skilled workers somehow managed to get the materials and started to build better defences there'd be an army of officials down on them in seconds. HSE. Local authority. Social welfare saying that if they are not available for work elsewhere then they can't draw dole etc. No repairs beyond the temporary done but you can imagine the red-tape brigade turning up pronto to stick their noses in should people start fixing things themselves.

So local knowledge and skills might have to take on national bureaucracy before it can take control of infrastructure in its area.

But Fraxinus is right. We're going to have to get over ourselves and grow up politically before we can talk really about practical democracy in Ireland.

I was guilty of expressing the state grab mentality up to about five years ago myself and then I copped on. It never led me to vote FF though thank god!

Now a federal system of governance may not work at all but seeing that we have such an aversion to the centralized state set-up I think we can only work with what we're given and try turn a negative cultural trait into something positive.

Sidewinder wrote a good piece on how we could achieve actual democracy in this country on another thread and I think if we were to go down the federal route we'd have to apply the same principles of more active participation by the citizenary in governance. When people are actually contributing to the political system and can see fruits of their work I think it would only serve to encourage even more participation in governance, as oppossed to the cynicism and powerlessness the current system emits.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The mechanics are there for greater direct participation in the process of government and administration by the electorate.

There's absolutely no reason why a country the size of Ireland couldn't move to a more direct style of democracy and by the looks of it save a hell of a lot of money in the process.

One example being the utter waste in the HSE which as far as I can see was set up by a Minister for Health as a mudguard so she can disown anything to do with health provision by claiming issues are a matter for the HSE. What's the point of a Minister for Health who spends most of her time deflecting issues?

Why pay someone like that- the state car, the junkets and the expenses and the ridiculous pension arrangements politicians vote themselves?

The style of 'democracy' we see in Ireland is just a tragic distortion of the principle it is supposed to serve.

[Sam Lord]

Ireland can be a very lonely country for visitors and newcomers. We're clannish and exclusive.


Not my experience I have to say.

[Fraxinus]

The mechanics are there for greater direct participation in the process of government and administration by the electorate.

There's absolutely no reason why a country the size of Ireland couldn't move to a more direct style of democracy and by the looks of it save a hell of a lot of money in the process.

One example being the utter waste in the HSE which as far as I can see was set up by a Minister for Health as a mudguard so she can disown anything to do with health provision by claiming issues are a matter for the HSE. What's the point of a Minister for Health who spends most of her time deflecting issues?

Why pay someone like that- the state car, the junkets and the expenses and the ridiculous pension arrangements politicians vote themselves?

The style of 'democracy' we see in Ireland is just a tragic distortion of the principle it is supposed to serve.

Exactly, by rights Brendan Drumm was de facto minister for health.

And that Harney example flows the whole way down the ladder. The HSE is clogged with management and no doubt all for the purpose of fobbing off responsibility.

[C. Flower]

Not my experience I have to say.

Hmm. Slow enough to ask people back to the home place, compared with other countries I've lived in.

[Sam Lord]

Hmm. Slow enough to ask people back to the home place, compared with other countries I've lived in.

Dinner parties were not part of the culture in the parts of Dublin I lived in for a period ... socialising was done in public houses. But people knocked around to each others places uninvited all the time.

I never felt anything other than welcome anywhere.