What value do you give your VOTE!!!!

[Newsy]

In the 2007 General Election, I got burned. I gave a preference vote to the greens because,

1) sargant said he wouldn’t lead the greens into gov. with ff and

2) their stance on gay rights.


Technically, Sargant didn’t lie, but he may as well have. Following their entry into gov. with ff, there was nothing I could do, to get my vote back. I couldn’t have been more disgusted. I so regretted voting green. But there was no way of getting it back. There was no way of holding them accountable.

Since then I have thought long and hard about this very issue. How, in the future, could I hold these politians accountable??

I have devised a method of doing it.

Such accountability begins BEFORE the election. Irish politians are noted for making promises. When they are looking for your vote, they will promise the earth, but of course, you never get the earth.
It would appear that they don’t care, what they promise, but it DOES MATTER to those they promise.

When a candidate comes to your door looking for your vote, they are really asking you to place YOUR TRUST in them.

Now, ‘trust’ is a very delicate thing. It is very fragile and needs to be respected. It is as if they are asking you to believe in them. It could be argued that a non formal contract is entered into.

The down side, at the moment is, that those who have cast their vote for these candidates, have no way of making them accountable. I wish to formalise that ‘non formal contract’.

These candidates come to your door, with all of THEIR policies. But what about YOURS??

Here is my plan.

For example, I have major issues with a number of things in our political system, wages of our politians, freedom of information act, NAMA etc..

So, I am going to present MY list of issues to each one of these potential politians and invite them to formally enter into a contract with me, (sign a contract, on each of the issues) and if they are lucky enough to reach the Dail, they will fulfil THEIR end of the contract. Otherwise, they will be held accountable in a court of law and/or in the media.

For all the individual contracts that such candidates enter into/do not enter into, they will be published so that the public will be informed.

It is necessary to say, for anyone who wishes to follow this line, that from such a contract there is NO PERSONAL gain for the voter or for their constituency except in exceptional circumstances ie. The Childrens Hospital which is of National interest.

I believe this method of formalising the contract of trust, will make our potential politians wake up to the seriousness of the business they are in and also not take the public for granted.

Your vote matters.

Your vote has value.

How much value, is up to you!!!

[Ah Well]

What Value to give one's Vote

That's a good one .. hmmmmm

As it stands (and in that since likely not to change before the next Election as things are likely to still be standing the same then as they are now as they do in this place)

Option A:-

Existing Parties - no vote from me - Tweedledum (Incumbents) and Tweedledumber (Alternative from the 20th Century Old Guard in whatever shape)

Option B:-

Independents/Something else pops out of the fog - if it's some sort of credible alternative or just looks remotely better in any sense than the purile nonsense that now exists then I'd be inclined to give them some consideration

If there is no Option B, well it's prob a case of not voting at all or else turn up and simply spoil it as a token protest. And before people start on about you should vote for the best of the undesirable options being all that is available. No, Option A for me is a no no. Totally

[eoinmn]

In the 2007 General Election, I got burned. I gave a preference vote to the greens because,

1) sargant said he wouldn’t lead the greens into gov. with ff and
Let me tell you a story. Totally true.

I was canvassing in 2007 for John Gormley.

I called at a door and a white haired gentleman answered. In Rathgar I think. I had no way of knowing this guy's politics.

He said to me, "People are saying the Greens might go into government with Fianna Fail. Is that true? Would John Gormley go into government with Fianna Fail".

I, overstepping a boundary and speaking for the candidate when I should not have, answered..

"Honestly? Yes".

He said "I'll vote for him so".


Given this story, you can see why I have very poor regard for those that say they voted Green thinking they wouldn't go into coalition with FF. Fair weather supporters of the Greens. Liars or idiots. I have no patience with them. They wanted the Greens in government. They got it. Now they are unhappy because they got what they wanted, but not the way they wanted it.

[eoinmn]

Here is the flip side of your contract...

If a candidate fulfills all of the promises on your contract, will you vote for them in the following election?

So let's say your contract says:

No cuts in Education.
New children's hospital in Tallaght.
No water charges.

And TD Paddy Joe signs the contract and these things come to pass, will you vote #1 for Paddy Joe in 2017?
Even given that
St Vincents hospital closed
Methane tax introduced on beef
Paddy Joe found he expensed his daughter's wedding as a conference?

Will you keep your side of the contract?

[Newsy]

Given this story, you can see why I have very poor regard for those that say they voted Green thinking they wouldn't go into coalition with FF. Fair weather supporters of the Greens. Liars or idiots. I have no patience with them. They wanted the Greens in government. They got it. Now they are unhappy because they got what they wanted, but not the way they wanted it.

Thank you very much for your 'poor regard' of me!!!! You make such a statement on the basis of ONE man you met in 2007!!!!!

The greens COULD have kept their support base and expanded it, very much, but they choose not. THEY threw it away.....

Simple as that.

[eoinmn]

Thank you very much for your 'poor regard' of me!!!! Just being honest.
I know honesty is NOT appreciated in politics, but there you go.


The greens COULD have kept their support base and expanded it, very much, but they choose not. THEY threw it away.Their support was dwindling anyway. The 07 election was a bad one for the Greens. And if a party turns down an oppurtunity to serve in government, what point is there voting for that party.

[People Korps]

A promise that probably wont be kept ? :)

[eoinmn]

So, Newsy would you keep your contract in the scenario outlined above?

[C. Flower]

Just being honest.
I know honesty is NOT appreciated in politics, but there you go.

Their support was dwindling anyway. The 07 election was a bad one for the Greens. And if a party turns down an oppurtunity to serve in government, what point is there voting for that party.

Just lets take the example of a fascist government. Would you make an exception of that ?

[eoinmn]

Just lets take the example of a fascist government. Would you make an exception of that ?

A coalition of greens and fascists would be preferable to one composed of fascists alone! :) But where anti-fascist opposition exists, I would prefer any party I vote for to be a part of that. And I would vote accordingly. If the Green Party hadn't 100% definitively ruled out coalition with the ruling fascist party, I wouldn't vote for them.

[eoinmn]

I don't know why what I am saying is garnering so much comment. I've made the point hundreds of times. If one didn't want the Greens in coalition in 2007, one should not have voted for them.

It is the height of silliness to vote for a party and then complain that they got elected and went into coalition.

[C. Flower]

A coalition of greens and fascists would be preferable to one composed of fascists alone! :)


In what way? What if the greens were keeping the fascists in power?
Or providing them with "greenwash" ?

[eoinmn]

In what way? What if the greens were keeping the fascists in power?
Well what would it matter if the opposition are equally fascist? The FG to their FF?


Or providing them with "greenwash" ?I wouldn't be a fan of that.

[Newsy]

So, Newsy would you keep your contract in the scenario outlined above?

You make up your mind, on extremely limited experience. No matter what I say, I believe you won't believe me.......you haven't so far and that is my experience of YOU.

[eoinmn]

You make up your mind, on extremely limited experience. No matter what I say, I believe you won't believe me.......you haven't so far and that is my experience of YOU.

Ok.

I wanted a yes or no answer, but whatever.

I reckon you wouldn't keep the contract, as you wouldn't condone the misuse of public money, and your St. Vincents would be a priority for you. And fair enough.

I'm basically raising the point that over 5 years (or less), things change. Priorities change. The electorates needs and wants changes.

One of the big talking points of the 2007 election was ... stamp duty!!

Think about how ridiculous this now seems. How irrelevant!

Stamp duty could be levied at 100% now and nobody would care as so few people are buying houses.

Do you see the point I am struggling to make?

[Newsy]

Here is the flip side of your contract...

If a candidate fulfills all of the promises on your contract, will you vote for them in the following election?

So let's say your contract says:

No cuts in Education.
New children's hospital in Tallaght.
No water charges.

And TD Paddy Joe signs the contract and these things come to pass, will you vote #1 for Paddy Joe in 2017?
Even given that
St Vincents hospital closed
Methane tax introduced on beef
Paddy Joe found he expensed his daughter's wedding as a conference?

Will you keep your side of the contract?

You have completely missed the point.

The contract is renegotiated at EACH general election.

You also MISSED the point, that the contract is made with regard to the NATIONAL interest.......not personal gain or something for the voters constitutency EXCEPT in exceptional circumstances.

[Newsy]

Ok.

I wanted a yes or no answer, but whatever.

I reckon you wouldn't keep the contract, as you wouldn't condone the misuse of public money, and your St. Vincents would be a priority for you. And fair enough.

I'm basically raising the point that over 5 years (or less), things change. Priorities change. The electorates needs and wants changes.

One of the big talking points of the 2007 election was ... stamp duty!!

Think about how ridiculous this now seems. How irrelevant!

Stamp duty could be levied at 100% now and nobody would care as so few people are buying houses.

Do you see the point I am struggling to make?

Of course things change. That is why the contract is re-negotiated AT every general election.

Just because the politian keeps their side of the contract during the next Dail, doesn't mean that I will automatically vote for them, come the next election. The contract of the last election, is gone.

2017 fresh contract.

[greengoose]

You make up your mind, on extremely limited experience. No matter what I say, I believe you won't believe me.......you haven't so far and that is my experience of YOU.

+1

Hard to discuss with someone who simply wants to argue for the sake of winning the argument.

[eoinmn]

You have completely missed the point.

The contract is renegotiated at EACH general election. No, I got that.
My point is that things change between elections.



You also MISSED the point, that the contract is made with regard to the NATIONAL interest.......not personal gain or something for the voters constitutency EXCEPT in exceptional circumstances.No I didn't miss that point either.

Look at what I put on the contract: all national-interest stuff.
Education - National
Children's Hospital - National
Water charges - National

Now on the list of what happens:

St Vincents - hospital of national importance
Methane tax - national
Paddy Joe's corruption - debatable as to whether this is of national importance. I think it is.


Show me how I missed the point, please?

[eoinmn]

Just because the politian keeps their side of the contract during the next Dail, doesn't mean that I will automatically vote for them, come the next election. Ah sorry, I missed that part.

I see now you said

Otherwise, they will be held accountable in a court of law and/or in the media.

My apologies.

[eoinmn]

Hard to discuss with someone who simply wants to argue for the sake of winning the argument.
That's unfair to say about me.

[C. Flower]

Well what would it matter if the opposition are equally fascist? The FG to their FF?



That assumes that the Greens would not oppose fascism.

[greengoose]

That's unfair to say about me.

Lots of things are unfair in this life. Sometimes on brings stuff on one's self...

[Newsy]

No, I got that.
My point is that things change between elections.


No I didn't miss that point either.

Look at what I put on the contract: all national-interest stuff.
Education - National
Children's Hospital - National
Water charges - National

Now on the list of what happens:

St Vincents - hospital of national importance
Methane tax - national
Paddy Joe's corruption - debatable as to whether this is of national importance. I think it is.


Show me how I missed the point, please?

Of course Paddy Joe's corruption is a national disgrace and is a blight on politics.

This is where the VALUE of one's vote and the IMPORTANCE that each and everyone of us needs to give it. If we are to clean up politics and be truly serious about it, come election and Paddy Joe comes to my door looking to renew the contract, there is a new issue......no corruption!!!!

Perhaps it is a one strike and you're out.......but I would like to begin from a position of trust.

[eoinmn]

Lots of things are unfair in this life. Sometimes on brings stuff on one's self...
How have I brought your ire on myself? What have I done to offend you?

[Newsy]

Ah sorry, I missed that part.

I see now you said


My apologies.

Accepted.

[eoinmn]

Of course Paddy Joe's corruption is a national disgrace and is a blight on politics.

But you see my (pedantic) point that Paddy never promised in the contract to not be corrupt. And this shows the limitations of contracts?

[greengoose]

How have I brought your ire on myself? What have I done to offend you?

Don't ask! Think instead. ;)

[Newsy]

But you see my (pedantic) point that Paddy never promised in the contract to not be corrupt. And this shows the limitations of contracts?

And you are missing mine.

Come NEXT election, I will include this in MY contract.

Perhaps a 'corruption' clause may need to be essential in the original contract. That would solve that issue.

[eoinmn]

Don't ask! Think instead. ;)
I won't lose sleep over it.


Perhaps a 'corruption' clause may need to be essential in the original contract. That would solve that issue.
That issue, yes. But not some other as yet "unknown unknown" issue, to use Rumfeld's phrase.

[eoinmn]

That assumes that the Greens would not oppose fascism.
It does.

Which is probably an incorrect assumption, on my part.

As an aside, it is often theorized that a Green Party could exist in both a capitalist system or a socialist system. Perhaps it is true that Greens could operate in a manner consistent with fascism too? (I feel I'm going to regret that remark!)

[C. Flower]

It does.

Which is probably an incorrect assumption, on my part.

As an aside, it is often theorized that a Green Party could exist in both a capitalist system or a socialist system. Perhaps it is true that Greens could operate in a manner consistent with fascism too? (I feel I'm going to regret that remark!)

I've never had any doubt about it. Nazism had a "healthy and nature loving" element very much in tune with Green politics and radical, petty bourgeois, business aligned politics can drift very rapidly to the right.

Nazism and "the wholistic worship of nature" - http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22716

They were against animal cruelty too, and put the perpetrators into concentration camps.

[eoinmn]

Nazism and "the wholistic worship of nature" - http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22716
True, but there is more to Green Political Thought than a love of nature.

[Justin Casey]

Right now, I'd sell my vote for €100 - if I could get it. Money up-front, obviously.

[C. Flower]

True, but there is more to Green Political Thought than a love of nature.

What, exactly ?

[eoinmn]

What, exactly ?
I was afraid you'd ask that.

I'm the wrong person to tell you!

I'd suggest this book, if you are interested: Amazon.com: Green Political Thought (9780415403528): Andrew Dobson: Books

Although, I think I failed one of his criteria for a "real" Green.

Some things I remember from the book..

Both socialism and capitalism are forms of "industrialism" and both abuse the earth's natural resources, whereas Greens would try to conserve and enhance those resources.
Greens tend to be against income taxation, and for resource taxation.
Some Greens advocate slow economic growth, but "Deep Greens" advocate de-growth.. a deeply unpopular and radical idea.

[eoinmn]

Aaaanyway, back to the contract idea.

What about a website or database where the public can suggest promises and politicians can sign up to promises?

Then every year or so, the administrator of the website publishes what promises were kept or not.

[C. Flower]

I was afraid you'd ask that.

I'm the wrong person to tell you!

I'd suggest this book, if you are interested: Amazon.com: Green Political Thought (9780415403528): Andrew Dobson: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Green-Political-Thought-Andrew-Dobson/dp/0415403529/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287674077&sr=1-1)

Although, I think I failed one of his criteria for a "real" Green.

Some things I remember from the book..

Both socialism and capitalism are forms of "industrialism" and both abuse the earth's natural resources, whereas Greens would try to conserve and enhance those resources.
Greens tend to be against income taxation, and for resource taxation.
Some Greens advocate slow economic growth, but "Deep Greens" advocate de-growth.. a deeply unpopular and radical idea.


Hmm..



This abhorrent philosophy blossomed in Nazi Germany. Environmental planning was made part of Nazi construction projects. Some Nazis actually proposed a “de-industrialization” of Germany, while organic gardening was practiced throughout Germany, including, horribly, in Auschwitz. Nazis taught schoolchildren about ecology and set aside almost 800 nature protection areas before the Second World War began.

The high water mark for Nazi environmentalism was in 1935 with the passage of the Reich Nature Protection Law called the Reichnaturschutzgesetz. The national office created by this law required “environmental effect reports” before conducting any project that might affect the landscape. The power of these Nazi environmentalists was enough to slow or stop activities related to the war effort.


http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22716

[eoinmn]

Well if the Nazis did it, then it follows that is is bad.

</sarcasm>

[C. Flower]

eoinmn: As an aside, it is often theorized that a Green Party could exist in both a capitalist system or a socialist system. Perhaps it is true that Greens could operate in a manner consistent with fascism too? (I feel I'm going to regret that remark!)


Well if the Nazis did it, then it follows that is is bad.

</sarcasm>

Not so much sarcasm, as strawmanism.

[eoinmn]

Not so much sarcasm, as strawmanism.
Fair enough!

So .. are you trying to show that Fascism and Green Politics are not mutually exclusive?

[whydontwe]

Ah Well...couldn't agree more! Until every politician and "public servant" is willing to suffer exactly...and I mean EXACTLY, as all the dead, dying, soon to be dead children and adults that they persecute by THEIR form of capitalism...then we...as a people who profess to care....should ignore and shun them!....am I wrong?

[C. Flower]

Fair enough!

So .. are you trying to show that Fascism and Green Politics are not mutually exclusive?

I think that between the two of us, the case has been made.

Parliamentary representative democracy is a very crude form of democracy.

Without powers of recall, it's far too easy for any politician to act corruptly, whether it's direct financial corruption, of the other type - taking peoples' votes on false pretenses and using electoral powers against the interests of voters.

[eoinmn]

I think that between the two of us, the case has been made.
Yes and it surprising that it is you and I who have made the case given that I am a Green supporter and you said

"That assumes that the Greens would not oppose fascism."

[whydontwe]

eoinmn,
An Irish vote IS a joke...it can not be anything else since all political parties do not....have not....and will not, serve anyone but themselves and their families and friends!! History and news media will prove this. Unfortunately....the political families...and their cohorts in the law-society will always secure health and riches for themselves....and they will endeavour to ensure the media supports them. Any one think the opposite??

[eoinmn]

Without powers of recall

Do you think the power of recall would be more effective than the OP's Contract idea?

Could the concepts be merged?

[eoinmn]

An Irish vote IS a joke...it can not be anything else since all political parties do not....have not....We can keep up the fight for accountability.

[Griska]

eoinmn,
An Irish vote IS a joke...it can not be anything else since all political parties do not....have not....and will not, serve anyone but themselves and their families and friends!! History and news media will prove this. Unfortunately....the political families...and their cohorts in the law-society will always secure health and riches for themselves....and they will endeavour to ensure the media supports them. Any one think the opposite??

As opposed to a vote elsewhere? Also the news media can prove or disprove this point, depending on which news outlet you choose.

[Griska]

There's an easy answer to the question.

How much money would people sell their vote for?

[Newsy]

eoinmn,
An Irish vote IS a joke...it can not be anything else since all political parties do not....have not....and will not, serve anyone but themselves

I beg to differ with regard to an Irish vote.

The majority of us have never really looked or taken responsibility with regard to the value that we place on our individual votes.

Each one of us needs to value our vote and make sure that through the contract that is agreed with the potential politian that THAT value is recognised and respected.

The truth of the matter is, If I don't respect and value MY vote, no one will.

Make your vote work for you......if you are willing to vote for a particular candidate, then make him accountable to him/her.

[Newsy]

There's an easy answer to the question.

How much money would people sell their vote for?

My vote is priceless. It is worth gold and therefore it needs to be respected.....as does everyone else's.

That is a fact that we all need to appreciate.

[moss]

My vote is priceless. It is worth gold and therefore it needs to be respected.....as does everyone else's.

That is a fact that we all need to appreciate.

Fair play to ya Newsy.

Personally I havent been registered to vote in 5 or 6 years.

I am gonna register this year so I can rip it up infront of all the party reps and tell them they are all a shower of piss.

Thats my tactic.

[Newsy]

Fair play to ya Newsy.

Personally I havent been registered to vote in 5 or 6 years.

I am gonna register this year so I can rip it up infront of all the party reps and tell them they are all a shower of piss.

Thats my tactic.

It wouldn't be my choice.

However, it is YOUR vote and YOUR choice. That is what the vote is all about. It is all about choice.

But it is more than that, I have come to belive. As an extension to voting for 'someone', accountability by THAT 'someone' is essential. Otherwise, a vote can be grossly abused.

[moss]

It wouldn't be my choice.

However, it is YOUR vote and YOUR choice. That is what the vote is all about. It is all about choice.

But it is more than that, I have come to belive. As an extension to voting for 'someone', accountability by THAT 'someone' is essential. Otherwise, a vote can be grossly abused.

Exactly, it's mine and mine alone. That's how I intend to use it. I'm gonna reclaim it.

It's not single votes that I'd be concerned about being abused. It's the collective votes that spivs and chancers hoover up and abuse that I believe is the real travesty.

[Newsy]

It's not single votes that I'd be concerned about being abused. It's the collective votes that spivs and chancers hoover up and abuse that I believe is the real travesty.

I know exactly what you are talking about.

As a society, we need to really reclaim (to take your word) what our 'vote' really means and stands for.

[Ah Well]

I value my vote too much to give it away to what is presently on offer snuffling for it

So if needs be I will retain it until a worthy recipient comes along - whenever that might possibly be

[Newsy]

I value my vote too much to give it away to what is presently on offer snuffling for it

So if needs be I will retain it until a worthy recipient comes along - whenever that might possibly be

Good on ya, Ah Well.

[moss]

I value my vote too much to give it away to what is presently on offer snuffling for it

So if needs be I will retain it until a worthy recipient comes along - whenever that might possibly be

I dont think thats good enough though. That's what I've done for a few years.
I believe it's time to tell the shower, in their faces, that they better shape up or ship out.

I'd love the non voters of this country to make a stand, not just stay at home.
(I'm not talking about you AW, I think I've read you are in favour of using your vote through spoiling, similar to my idea only less in their face)

[Ah Well]

Good on ya, Ah Well.

:)

We should set up a National Repository for Votes - those not inclined to give them to what's currently on offer could lodge them there until otherwise inclined

It would probably be swamped

;)

[Newsy]

:)

We should set up a National Repository for Votes - those not inclined to give them to what's currently on offer could lodge them there until otherwise inclined

It would probably be swamped

;)

lol.....Wonder, could one get interest on it!!!! ;) :)

[Seán Ryan]

I feel a rant coming on...

I've only ever voted once and I regret having done so (the divorce referendum).

The majority vote cast in each and every election is the vote not cast by non-voters like myself. This in itself demonstrates the value of representation afforded by "the vote."

I've had folks scream into my face that it's my duty to vote. This would normally follow the inebriated demand by some true patriot to stand for the national anthem, at closing time. After pointing out to such gobshítes, that standing to attention for this pathetic dirge, is an insult to those who died to achieve liberation from the same mess and type of scumbags we now find ourselves involved with and that it flies in the face of basic comprehension, the conversation would invariably turn to the power and the duty of voting.

I always ask is it your duty to vote or is it your duty to vote for someone who represents you? Unfortunately, this has to be pointed out to folks who declare non-voters to be traitors - it's a nice way to encourage a little perspective shift. The power of your vote buys you misery and the change you get from the transaction, you use to promote and sell what little dignity remains.

In summation. Screw voting!

[Justin Casey]

If voting could change anything, it would be illegal.

[whydontwe]

Sean Ryan...correct....and Justin....nice sentiment....and a v/good tag...must remember that one!

[ModestMouse]

I feel a rant coming on...

I've only ever voted once and I regret having done so (the divorce referendum).

The majority vote cast in each and every election is the vote not cast by non-voters like myself. This in itself demonstrates the value of representation afforded by "the vote.".....In summation. Screw voting!



What a dope.

[Seán Ryan]

Very eloquent. Have you got an argument or was that you at your best?

[charley]

I'll be very mercenary here and admit to voting for anyone who in the past done me a favour and be in a position of being there to do the same in the future . All politics is local so I think I'm speaking for a good percentage of the electorate when I state my position.
I always vote against referenda as if the Government thinks its good for the people it probably isn't
Didn't vote on the abortion referendum as it was a referendum for women .

[Newsy]

I feel a rant coming on...
I always ask is it your duty to vote or is it your duty to vote for someone who represents you? Unfortunately, this has to be pointed out to folks who declare non-voters to be traitors - it's a nice way to encourage a little perspective shift. The power of your vote buys you misery and the change you get from the transaction, you use to promote and sell what little dignity remains.

No rant coming, Sean Ryan.

I would suggest that the question is broader than an issue of 'duty' or of voting for someone who 'represents' me/you???

Isn't voting part of the process of being involved, of taking part, of having a vision for the future and contributing to the formation of that vision??

[Mick Tully]

If you had a choice in making a change I would vote, what's the point in voting for either tweedle dee or tweedle dum. Their all G!!!!!!s.

[Newsy]

I'll be very mercenary here and admit to voting for anyone who in the past done me a favour and be in a position of being there to do the same in the future . All politics is local so I think I'm speaking for a good percentage of the electorate when I state my position.
I always vote against referenda as if the Government thinks its good for the people it probably isn't
Didn't vote on the abortion referendum as it was a referendum for women .

Doesn't that make voting, all about you and NOT the country???

Does that mean that, regardless of what your politian stands for, you will give him/her your vote, because of favours he/she has done for you???

[Seán Ryan]

No rant coming, Sean Ryan.

I would suggest that the question is broader than an issue of 'duty' or of voting for someone who 'represents' me/you???

Isn't voting part of the process of being involved, of taking part, of having a vision for the future and contributing to the formation of that vision??

I would agree. I reckon that not voting is taking part and having a vision for the future. I reckon the government is illegitimate and that they have no mandate whatsoever to do or say anything in my name. It's not about me, to be fair, my generation is screwed - it's about the next generation, what we have presently is totally unacceptable and I will not act to legitimise it for future generations. That's a vision for the future?

[Mick Tully]

I would agree. I reckon that not voting is taking part and having a vision for the future. I reckon the government is illegitimate and that they have no mandate whatsoever to do or say anything in my name. It's not about me, to be fair, my generation is screwed - it's about the next generation, what we have presently is totally unacceptable and I will not act to legitimise it for future generations. That's a vision for the future?

A very good Reply.

[Newsy]

I would agree. I reckon that not voting is taking part and having a vision for the future. I reckon the government is illegitimate and that they have no mandate whatsoever to do or say anything in my name. It's not about me, to be fair, my generation is screwed - it's about the next generation, what we have presently is totally unacceptable and I will not act to legitimise it for future generations. That's a vision for the future?

I understand your point.

However, if a candidate presented themselves who offered a different, open and nationally inclusive vision, would you then engage in voting???

[Seán Ryan]

I understand your point.

However, if a candidate presented themselves who offered a different, open and nationally inclusive vision, would you then engage in voting???

If he or she could convince me that s/he represented me and was willing to sign an affidavit to that effect, I'd vote in a heartbeat.

[Newsy]

If he or she could convince me that s/he represented me and was willing to sign an affidavit to that effect, I'd vote in a heartbeat.

Represented you, or represented your views with regard to a vision for the country??

[Seán Ryan]

Represented you, or represented your views with regard to a vision for the country??

Both. Not an easy job admittedly. I could be swayed by a superior argument regarding a vision for the country. Having said that, my vision starts from scratch. I see nothing within the current political machine that even begins to function. I'd demand an end to Ireland's one and only, so-called economic policy, foreign investment. I'd also demand a complete restructuring of the educational system. The gardaí would need to be dismantled. The judiciary and the King's Inns monopoly would need to go too. The health service, for want of a better description, needs to be pronounced dead and it should be buried. National debt - what debt?

That's only the tip of the iceberg, regarding an agreement that would result in my vote.

[Griska]

Both. Not an easy job admittedly. I could be swayed by a superior argument regarding a vision for the country. Having said that, my vision starts from scratch. I see nothing within the current political machine that even begins to function. I'd demand an end to Ireland's one and only, so-called economic policy, foreign investment. I'd also demand a complete restructuring of the educational system. The gardaí would need to be dismantled. The judiciary and the King's Inns monopoly would need to go too. The health service, for want of a better description, needs to be pronounced dead and it should be buried. National debt - what debt?

That's only the tip of the iceberg, regarding an agreement that would result in my vote.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said Sean. But you talk about dismantling a whole lot. Do you have alternatives?

[charley]

Doesn't that make voting, all about you and NOT the country???

Does that mean that, regardless of what your politian stands for, you will give him/her your vote, because of favours he/she has done for you???

I'm a selfish bastard ,the country does very little for me why should I care about it. ME getting stuff much more important:D

[Seán Ryan]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said Sean. But you talk about dismantling a whole lot. Do you have alternatives?

I'd love to hit you with some magical thinking Griska :) But it'd be bull and we both know it.

I reckon efficiency is one of the big issues. At the moment we equate cost with efficiency. I equate the result with it. Folks need food, shelter, educational resources and a health service. We have enough people in the country who can provide this. We need other resources like drugs and equipment that we don't make here, so we'd need to have exports set up to be able to afford the essentials. Simplification of the system. There are way too many cooks spoiling the broth presently (urinating in it even).

We're very fortunate to be living where we are. We could be self-sufficient or pretty damn close to it. If folks wanted it enough we could achieve it. It'd be incredibly painful, but it's looking like it's going to be that way anyway. Convincing the electorate, there's the real job and there's where most of the pain lies.

[Griska]

I'm a selfish bastard ,the country does very little for me why should I care about it. ME getting stuff much more important:D

That's the spirit.

[Newsy]

THE CO Kerry town of Castleisland was enjoying an unusual peace yesterday evening as bank holiday weekend traffic heading for north Kerry was, for the first time, able to use a new €35 million bypass of the town.

The bypass was the only new road building scheme to be started by the National Roads Authority in 2009.

Credit for the near-6km bypass getting through a Government embargo on new schemes was immediately claimed by the Independent Kerry TD Jackie Healy-Rae, who said he had used his position as a Government supporter to “at all times put the interest of the people [of Kerry] first”.

He said the Opposition should not criticise his advantage and “stop trying to jeopardise the further items that I have an agreement on”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1023/1224281825535.html

As the people of Castleisland get their bypass.......the country burns in NAMA, waste, HSE that is majorily dysfunctional, cuts to the blind allowance......and so much more!!!!

This is the PRICE that healy-rae's vote cost us AND 'his own' in Kerry.......an abuse of the voting principle.

Nothing so principled as 'value' of this vote..........this is all about PRICE!!!!

And obviously EVEN MORE votes to come.

[Newsy]

I'm a selfish bastard ,the country does very little for me why should I care about it. ME getting stuff much more important:D

Do you live in Kerry, by any chance.....;)

[whydontwe]

Newsy,
Jackie Healy Rae (the genius!!)...a few short years ago was asked on radio about his mode of transport: with what appeared to be some pride....he responded it was a mercedes.... and (I paraphrase here)....." sure ye need a good car under your a**e when you go up to the Dail EVERY day" !!?? Now...is there any one in Kerry (or Fianna Fail) or a supporter of the Healy-Rae dynasty that is willing to publish how many days (EXACTLY)...Jackie Healy Rae (or his dynasty) actually spent legislating in the Dail in the past 20 years?? Corruption abounds in this hateful corrupt kip. Supporters of Healy-Raes.....anybody with Cystic Fibrosis died due to lack of a segregated unit...in your families/friends?? If they haven't....then that's a miracle; if they have....shame on you and your families! End of!

[whydontwe]

Sean Ryan,
You raised an interesting point when you said..."we could be self-sufficient or pretty damn close to it ....". I agree.... and I've been saying that for 35 years ! There is more than enough land to cultivate...we are surrounded by seas (almost!).
If the Irish decided tomorrow....to shun the capitalism that favours only the wealthy and politically connected...and chose to insure equality of water/food/housing/health and education for absolutely all in this country....what a wonderful country we'd have!!
Perhaps this is another question that we should ask ourselves; do we really want the above...or do we want a corrupt country...genuflecting to the Capitalist mongers in Brussels and their puppets in Irish politics??

[concernedparent]

I have always felt that this country could be self sufficient or to paraphrase"pretty damn near it".

Too much of our natural resources have been signed away without a thought for future generations but only with the thought of a quick buck and increased approval ratings with the 'big boys' in Brussels.

Why is it many of our talented young and not so young can make huge successes of their lives when forced to emigrate. I believe it is because they are not shackled by not knowing the right person, not voting for the right party or not living in the right area of town.

They make it anonymously and entirely on their own merit.

So we have the talent and the drive and the intelligence that should be harnessed for the benefit of this their own country and the next generations to follow. Profit should not necessarily be a dirty word but harnessed for the benefit of the sick, poor, jobless and the dispossessed. Health care should be based on need not on ability to pay. There are houses going begging so why are there homeless. Why should manufacturing jobs go abroad when it is only increasing profits instead of creating jobs. Radical thinking is called for.

Indeed "there is enough in the world for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed."

[Newsy]

I have always felt that this country could be self sufficient or to paraphrase"pretty damn near it".

Too much of our natural resources have been signed away without a thought for future generations but only with the thought of a quick buck and increased approval ratings with the 'big boys' in Brussels.

Why is it many of our talented young and not so young can make huge successes of their lives when forced to emigrate. I believe it is because they are not shackled by not knowing the right person, not voting for the right party or not living in the right area of town.

They make it anonymously and entirely on their own merit.

So we have the talent and the drive and the intelligence that should be harnessed for the benefit of this their own country and the next generations to follow. Profit should not necessarily be a dirty word but harnessed for the benefit of the sick, poor, jobless and the dispossessed. Health care should be based on need not on ability to pay. There are houses going begging so why are there homeless. Why should manufacturing jobs go abroad when it is only increasing profits instead of creating jobs. Radical thinking is called for.

Indeed "there is enough in the world for everyone's need, but not for everyone's greed."

I would agree with you.

There is a very limited view, politically, in this country. There are so many 'sectors', 'agencies', 'groups' that get in the way of each other, that get in the way of getting things done.

For example, to do dredging work on the Shannon, 6 agencies have to be consulted with. Each agency looking after itself and NOT the common good or the broader view.

You talk about radical thinking.......but it really shouldn't be radical thinking......it should be common sense..
Trouble is, common sense doesn't really apply to our politics.......and in that sense, such policies WOULD be radical thinking.

Just to give an example.......about 18 months ago an individual wanted to find a way to bring in broadband into this area, at a VERY reasonable price.......he found a way......BUT the local gaa wouldn't allow it unless they got a 'cut' off the top.

Therefore, it never happened.

There is almost an unwritten rule in this country, that instead of jumping over one hoop to achieve something........we have about 6 jumps to get over.

Again, I believe that is because of the limited view that each sector has. We need a National vision......for the WHOLE COUNTRY.........

[Ah Well]

We need a National vision......for the WHOLE COUNTRY.........

Many are apathetic about the whole thing and disinterested so take no part

But at the same time there are countless hordes at various levels and strata with ulterior motives who do not want any change let alone a radical one

Stick anyone else in the middle who might want to have a go at sorting it out and it's a hell of a hard station indeed

[concernedparent]

I totally agree with Newsy.

The radical thinking I am talking about is in fact no more radical than common sense.

But there appears to be a complete absense of it when it comes to the powers that be and the public services.

Why is it that for the majority that go into public service administration, their common sense is left at the door.

Is it that if they have spent a lifetime in public service from say the ages of 18 or 21, they lose what common sense they have as they haven't had to use it.

Or is it total lack of experience of the world outside the confines of a permanent pensionable job.

[Design for Life]

To quote Wilde, a cynic is one who knows the "price of everything and the value of nothing". I greatly value my vote and as pathetic as it sounds I think about it philosophically to myself and question essentially the morals of voting for a whole set of policies of a party where the other policies are essentially the same.

Our problem is clientelism 101. The Jackie Healy Rae's and Noel Grealish's that try to extort a few luxuries for their "constitutents". That we have TDs writing letters to Dublin Bus to complain on behalf of grandmothers and then writing to said grandmothers with a reply from Dublin Bus really shows how fucked up our system is. It's quite simple that the change is to have proper local government and do away with this notion that it's ok for a TD to be a glorified social worker. They're elected at a local level to represent people at national level on national issues - instead we just hear them talk about "their" constitutency.


If yis will spare me another quote - this time from Richard Linklater in the film Slacker. "Withdrawl in disgust is not the same thing as apathy". I understand why some people don't vote. Some call it apathy but I'd at least like to think there's a stronger emotion there. It'd be great if there was a "none of the above" option or a "I turned up to vote but I disagree with these people standing and with this whole system but I will vote if there's something worth voting for" option.

In short FF and FG are the same, Labour are pseudo left quite prepared to rubberstamp right-wing agendas. Sinn Fein... I have that weird feeling of inertia when thinking about voting for them though their proposals have been good ( never thought I'd say that). As for other "left of left" parties/groups/candidates, I don't know to what extent these are really just throaway protest votes - is it better to give them a number one or just throw em an aul 10 or 11 preference?!


I don't want to vote for careerist politicians and support that political system but at the same time if I vote for the smaller guys what are the chances of them actually getting elected?

For me it's really about the big **** - the health, the education, the welfare state, the tax system. I'm under no illusion about the limits of my vote in terms of these big issues since broadly the 3 big guys are essentially the same - Labour in govt. will just adopt the larger parties big policies on this stuff.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

The most accurate statement I've ever heard about politics in Ireland comes from the apathetic young.

'Sure they are all the same'.

Knock the young for cynicism all you like but they do have an instinct for accuracy. Its the system that is corrupt and corrupts emerging politicians as they move through it.

You could put forward 10 decent proposals around transparency and accountability in Irish public life and I can guarantee you they would not be passed by the Dail.

The young are right.

[jpc]

The most accurate statement I've ever heard about politics in Ireland comes from the apathetic young.

'Sure they are all the same'.

Knock the young for cynicism all you like but they do have an instinct for accuracy. Its the system that is corrupt and corrupts emerging politicians as they move through it.

You could put forward 10 decent proposals around transparency and accountability in Irish public life and I can guarantee you they would not be passed by the Dail.

The young are right.

Interestingly enough John McGuinness the FF TD made the point this morning that trying to enact real change is stymied by the Civil service mandarins on a continual basis. The introduction of a list system that would allow the allow the appointment of properly qualified individuals was also touched on.
He feels a total revamp of government is required (Yeah!)

[Binn Beal]

The poor FF politicians; they would have done such wonders for the country if only the Civil Service hadn't stopped them continously over the past 70 years.

The financial oligarchy succeeded in switching the blame for the collapse of their system on the Civil Servants, with the help of their news media and pundits, and now we have FF politicians hoping to run with the same scapegoat.
And already the suckers are lining up to support them.

[antiestablishmentarian]

Lets face it, our votes are essentially worthless: we live in a dictatorship of the financial markets, and whether we vote for tweedeldee or tweedeldum gombeen-man won't make a blind bit of difference to the way things are run. The best thing we can do is learn to recognise something the French did a long time ago, the power of society is in the streets and not in the parliamentary ballot box.

[TotalMayhem]

Lets face it, our votes are essentially worthless

As Uncle Joe once said: "It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything."

[jpc]

The poor FF politicians; they would have done such wonders for the country if only the Civil Service hadn't stopped them continously over the past 70 years.

The financial oligarchy succeeded in switching the blame for the collapse of their system on the Civil Servants, with the help of their news media and pundits, and now we have FF politicians hoping to run with the same scapegoat.
And already the suckers are lining up to support them.

There was definitely a big sense of that sentiment in the interview.
We all know a revamp of how government is carried out is needed (Don't hold your breath)
But with all due respect I think all politicos are interested in is their seat and how to hold on to it.
More shape throwing I guess.

[Binn Beal]

The FF spin-machine is beginning to rotate for the forthcoming elections and it's using the Obama defence: we did our best in the circumstances but our hands were tied by those nasty (here insert current scapegoat) Republicans/Civil Servants.

[Design for Life]

The most accurate statement I've ever heard about politics in Ireland comes from the apathetic young.

'Sure they are all the same'.

Knock the young for cynicism all you like but they do have an instinct for accuracy. Its the system that is corrupt and corrupts emerging politicians as they move through it.

You could put forward 10 decent proposals around transparency and accountability in Irish public life and I can guarantee you they would not be passed by the Dail.

The young are right.

I've heard 'Sure they are all the same'. from old men in the barbers, grandfathers in the pub, women in the street, some young old and in between people. Many people aren't afforded political participation but this isn't just down to the individuals because there's significant responsibility to be laid at those who avail of the clientele system - it must be pretty easy to get elected if you just have to sign some letters, attend some funerals and read a prayer at Saturday evening mass. Imagine if they had to explain what sort of policies and ideologies it is they stand for? Pfftt...

As I said, it's not just apathy across the board for in some circumstances people do have opinions and are well aware of politics but rather than taking part in token democracy they withdraw. In disgust.

"Apathy" confers a more corrosive kinda 'I'm putting my fingers in my ears cause I don't wanna hear anything about politics blah blah blah....".


"They're all the same" is a symptom of our centrist political base. If we had a clear left/right divide then people could make up their mind - do they want equality in health and education services and a proper tax system or do they want to have to pay glorified stealth taxes to access public services with a skewed dilapidated tax system that favours large wealth accumulation in a small concentration of people.

My left/right analysis probably isn't the greatest or most academic but whatever, there's no choice and centrist/populist politics has been very corrosive.



Interestingly enough John McGuinness the FF TD made the point this morning that trying to enact real change is stymied by the Civil service mandarins on a continual basis. The introduction of a list system that would allow the allow the appointment of properly qualified individuals was also touched on.
He feels a total revamp of government is required (Yeah!)

Indeed there is feck all personal accountability in public political life - ministers blame the senior servants and noone knows who these mysterious creatures are. Even when a few of these mandarins come out to speak in public at a public accounts committee they appear to be of the same ilk as politicians - avoiding questions, making speeches, talking about irrelevant stuff and so on.

The Children's referendum is one extremely typical example in that the Dept. Of Finance has bemoaned "Oh but this will cost money, can't be affording rights to children... it'll cost money". They said the same about every other instance in Irish history when affording rights to marginalised groups. The Dept. of Justice said "ah but here, we can't be having this cause this'll mean we can't deport children back to war torn countries, down with this kinda universal rights for children". Dept. Of Education quipped that giving kids some constitutional recognition would be bad cause that'd lead to instances where children can't expelled from schools because they'd have to have representation and rights and appeals and all that stuff.

So despite all parties agreeing on this constitutional referendum there are actors in state departments that are hell bent on disabling democracy. Though I'm sure at the least the main FF actors were well aware of what would happen.


The FF spin-machine is beginning to rotate for the forthcoming elections and it's using the Obama defence: we did our best in the circumstances but our hands were tied by those nasty (here insert current scapegoat) Republicans/Civil Servants.

The victim complex has been a facet of Irish politics for years - don't blame me it was so-and-sos fault, outside pressures and circumstance means that I am powerless, someone else caused the crisis, look at how afflicted IAM by all of this, I'm just like you and we are in this together while other people afflict us with a property bubble, a dilapidated tax base, recession and inability to deal with these things.

It's all the fault of Lehmans!