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Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 05:37 PM
Todays IT has a piece By VB wherein he states that we should be governed more via referendumziz !! Usual weasely get-out clause stating that we might get some results we don't like "but that's democracy "

OK... possible results we don't like...
Death penalty.... round-up of any immigrant stupid enough to have a brown skin.... etc etc.

Has Vincent no grasp of history ?:confused:

BrendanGalway
24-03-2010, 06:08 PM
I think its an excellent idea. I would love Direct Democracy, like they have in Switzerland, which gives people a say in how they are governed. Vincenzo is spot on when he notes :



Our form of representative democracy sucks any real meaning from the idea of citizens being self-governing, citizens being the sovereign power. The idea that citizens have any real authority over how they are governed through the mechanism in which they choose a representative every five years to represent them in parliament is itself a hopelessly inadequate expression of citizens’ sovereign authority. The outsourcing of authority is not the same as the exercising of authority. That this representative then has so little power in parliament, unless they happen to be in the cabinet, further diminishes the content of sovereignty.


So whats wrong with changing that? You seem to have a dim view of the Irish people. While there are some regressive attitudes knocking around, I dont believe for a second that a referendum to "round up brown skinned immigrants" would go anywhere.

Imagine though we had a Referendum where any motivated citizen could suggest a Bill. How about the "Scrap Nama" bill or the "No more Public money going into Anglo" Bill? I think they would be some pretty progressive Policies and would garner Enormous Public support.

Too much power for the plebs however. I doubt any major Political party would ever seriously suggest we bring in Participatory Democracy.

Andrew49
24-03-2010, 06:12 PM
Todays IT has a piece By VB wherein he states that we should be governed more via referendumziz !! Usual weasely get-out clause stating that we might get some results we don't like "but that's democracy "

OK... possible results we don't like...
Death penalty.... round-up of any immigrant stupid enough to have a brown skin.... etc etc.

Has Vincent no grasp of history ?:confused:

Vincent Wrote:
Fine Gael does not address either of these two issues. In my view, the people should be consulted by way of referendums on all major issues, subject to agreement on fundamental rights. In many instances that would lead to outcomes which I and others would deplore; but that is democracy.

What are 'fundamental rights' though? Are they different than 'imprescriptible rights' ?

Tried to avoid reading Vincent's piece the whole way through today as it appeared to be a eulogy to Enda but I persevered and thought his idea on 'holding referendums on all major issues a bit silly - dangerous even. For instance there's no fundamental right to life in Ireland .... no no this is not on the abortion issue but on health inequalities. A report compiled in 2006 and published in 2007 reported that 15 people are dying each and everyday on this island due to health inequalities ... yet if you were to hold a referendum in this country on 'fundamental rights' the right to have a passport would top equality in health.

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 06:25 PM
I think its an excellent idea. I would love Direct Democracy, like they have in Switzerland, which gives people a say in how they are governed. Vincenzo is spot on when he notes :




So whats wrong with changing that? You seem to have a dim view of the Irish people. While there are some regressive attitudes knocking around, I dont believe for a second that a referendum to "round up brown skinned immigrants" would go anywhere.

Imagine though we had a Referendum where any motivated citizen could suggest a Bill. How about the "Scrap Nama" bill or the "No more Public money going into Anglo" Bill? I think they would be some pretty progressive Policies and would garner Enormous Public support.

Too much power for the plebs however. I doubt any major Political party would ever seriously suggest we bring in Participatory Democracy.

A rerendum to preclude the children of immigrants getting citizenship won by 80%. That's a fact. And don't try to tell me that the Irish people had a " nuanced" view of that referendum... at least the people I heard sniping about it didn't.
And Switzerland banning mosques. There are about six in the whole of Switzerland apparently.
Referenda are the tool of rightwingers everywhere. Look it up!:eek:

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 06:32 PM
Finally, we're seeing some establishment people actually starting to understand what democracy is supposed to be about. Direct democracy is far superior to representative democracy.

Electing 3 or 4 TDs to represent your town or county in the Dail, is a completely inadequate level of democracy. Its a form of oligarchy. The representatives do not adequately express the will of the people.

The people should have direct input into policy, through referendums. People must me allowed to put forward referendums and have their fellow citizens vote on them. Switzerland has had this for centuries and its produced a very stable and contented society.

FGs recent policy on allowing citizens to introduce a motion to the Dail, if they can gather 10,000 signatures, is a reasonable start in the right direction.

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 06:33 PM
And Switzerland banning mosques. There are about six in the whole of Switzerland apparently.
Referenda are the tool of rightwingers everywhere. Look it up!:eek:Why dont YOU look it up. The swiss did not ban mosques. They banned minarets.

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Why dont YOU look it up. The swiss did not ban mosques. They banned minarets.

Quibble much ?:D

cheal
24-03-2010, 07:18 PM
Pretty big difference between 'minarets' and 'Mosques' tbh.

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 07:22 PM
Pretty big difference between 'minarets' and 'Mosques' tbh.Yep. Especially since minarets are not mentioned in the koran, and are therefore not an official componant of islam. There just a historical development that caught on over the centuries. Theyre not needed for muslims to practise their religion.

Sad to see so many irish people misrepresenting the swiss decision as some kind of fascist persecution of muslims, when its nothing of the sort.

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 07:29 PM
Yep. Especially since minarets are not mentioned in the koran, and are therefore not an official componant of islam. There just a historical development that caught on over the centuries. Theyre not needed for muslims to practise their religion.

Sad to see so many irish people misrepresenting the swiss decision as some kind of fascist persecution of muslims, when its nothing of the sort.

Be sure to tell Pamela !
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/11/victory-swiiss-ban-mosque-minarets-in-a-lanslide-vote.html:eek:

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 07:41 PM
Be sure to tell Pamela !
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/11/victory-swiiss-ban-mosque-minarets-in-a-lanslide-vote.html:eek:Always need to get the last word in eh! Why dont you just admit you were wrong.

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 08:22 PM
Always need to get the last word in eh! Why dont you just admit you were wrong.

When I am I do. When I'm not I don't. Referenda are the chosen tool of the shifty. McDowell being a prime example. :eek:

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 08:39 PM
When I am I do. When I'm not I don't. Referenda are the chosen tool of the shifty. McDowell being a prime example. :eek:You lie. You made a false statement about the swiss and DID NOT admit being wrong.

A referendum is the purest form of democracy. You dont believe in democracy. You believe in being told what to do by an elite. You believe in the divine right of the elite to tell everyone whats best for them . Youre a catholic.

musashi
24-03-2010, 08:45 PM
Todays IT has a piece By VB wherein he states that we should be governed more via referendumziz !! Usual weasely get-out clause stating that we might get some results we don't like "but that's democracy "

OK... possible results we don't like...
Death penalty.... round-up of any immigrant stupid enough to have a brown skin.... etc etc.

Has Vincent no grasp of history ?:confused:

I think it's a good idea.
Here's the thing, with referenda every six months the whole process becomes increasingly expensive: that's what needs to be addressed, do we have it in us to develop and implement a secure, validated voting system.

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 08:51 PM
Here's the thing, with referenda every six months the whole process becomes increasingly expensive: that's what needs to be addressed, do we have it in us to develop and implement a secure, validated voting system.Thats an excellent question. Computers are an ideal tool for voting. But getting people to trust them is difficult. And with good reason.

BrendanGalway
24-03-2010, 08:51 PM
FGs recent policy on allowing citizens to introduce a motion to the Dail, if they can gather 10,000 signatures, is a reasonable start in the right direction.

A step but thats all. I believe the 100,000 signatures merely compels the Dail to "Consider" what the people have brought before them. Consider. What a word. Imagine presenting Brian Cowen with 100000 signatures to Drive corruption out of our Public institutions or to scrap Nama. FF would "consider" it for about 2 minutes and then pass it off to their spin doctors with a note attached "Come up with a heartfelt speech on why its not the right time to do this."

I dont consider "Consider" worth a whole lot. This just apes a similar proposal in the Lisbon Treaty where 1 million signatures and the EU council will also Consider your proposal.

Window dressing tbh. We have a long way to go to putting some real decision making in the hands of those who bear the worst effects of those decisions.

musashi
24-03-2010, 08:56 PM
Thats an excellent question. Computers are an ideal tool for voting. But getting people to trust them is difficult. And with good reason.

Yes of course. And when it comes to democracy the stakes are very high.

All you need is one skilled hacker to discredit the whole process.

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 09:05 PM
Yeah, For the Dail to merely "consider" the wishes of the citizenry, is inadequate. That allows them to weasel out of things.

This is the wording of Fine Gaels proposal from their New Politics document

We will introduce a Public Petition system for the Dáil. We believe that Citizens should have a way to raise key concerns directly with the Dáil. Our proposal will oblige the Dáil to consider a particular issue once it has been cleared by a Petitions committee. Definetly not good enough.

Their proposal doc is available here
http://www.finegael.org/upload/NewPolitics.pdf

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 09:09 PM
You lie. You made a false statement about the swiss and DID NOT admit being wrong.

A referendum is the purest form of democracy. You dont believe in democracy. You believe in being told what to do by an elite. You believe in the divine right of the elite to tell everyone whats best for them . Youre a catholic.

Don't you remember the vox pops during the Lisbon Treaty? Conscription! 17cents min wage ? Abortion on demand ? The only people who want referendums are those losers whose political platform doesn't bear scrutiny but who, with careful manipulation of the wording, would get their bad stuff in by the back door.
You're a fascist:D

RighteousAnger
24-03-2010, 09:26 PM
Don't you remember the vox pops during the Lisbon Treaty? Conscription! 17cents min wage ? Abortion on demand ? Yes, and the voters saw the red herrings for what they were and stayed focussed on the core issue. The referendum process worked.


The only people who want referendums are those losers whose political platform doesn't bear scrutinyA referendum IS scrutiny, you fruitcake. Scrutiny by millions of voters, is better than scrutiny by a handful of corruptible representatives.

jmcc
24-03-2010, 09:28 PM
A rerendum to preclude the children of immigrants getting citizenship won by 80%. That's a fact. And don't try to tell me that the Irish people had a " nuanced" view of that referendum.A loophole in the Good Friday Agreement was being exploited by economic migrants masquerading as asylum seekers. The Irish people were asked to vote on it. The Irish people voted to close the loophole. Delusional Lefties, assorted denizens of Indymedia and the Boards.ie politics section and and people traffickers were upset that the Irish people did something so revolutionary as thinking for themselves. Democracy is an amazing thing.


Referenda are the tool of rightwingers everywhere. Look it up!:eek:In that they show up how little support that Lefties such as yourself really have? :)

Regards...jmcc

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 09:36 PM
A loophole in the Good Friday Agreement was being exploited by economic migrants masquerading as asylum seekers. The Irish people were asked to vote on it. The Irish people voted to close the loophole. Delusional Lefties, assorted denizens of Indymedia and the Boards.ie politics section and and people traffickers were upset that the Irish people did something so revolutionary as thinking for themselves. Democracy is an amazing thing.

In that they show up how little support that Lefties such as yourself really have? :)

Regards...jmcc

Ummm... shiny boots! Peaked caps! long leather trench coats !

jmcc
24-03-2010, 09:53 PM
Ummm... shiny boots! Peaked caps! long leather trench coats !Also the uniform of the KGB. :) Now if you would stop admiring yourself in the mirror and get on with the apology for mixing up minarets with mosques.

Regards...jmcc

mutley
24-03-2010, 09:54 PM
Also the uniform of the KGB. :) Now if you would stop admiring yourself in the mirror and get on with the apology for mixing up minarets with mosques.

Regards...jmcc

muhahahaha :)

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 09:59 PM
muhahahaha :)

WTF are you laughing at ? You an expert on minarets as well as Lodges?

jmcc
24-03-2010, 10:00 PM
WTF are you laughing at ? You an expert on minarets as well as Lodges?It was obviously a cryptic reply. ;)

Regards...jmcc

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 10:04 PM
It was obviously a cryptic reply. ;)

Regards...jmcc

Muts doesn't do cryptic. Muts is full on!:D

jmcc
24-03-2010, 10:06 PM
Muts doesn't do cryptic. Muts is full on!:DCrypts, vampires, muhahahaha laugh? I hate it when I have to explain puns. :)

Regards...jmcc

Lapsedmethodist
24-03-2010, 10:26 PM
Crypts, vampires, muhahahaha laugh? I hate it when I have to explain puns. :)

Regards...jmcc

You're worse than Gay Byrne.:rolleyes:

mutley
24-03-2010, 10:34 PM
WTF are you laughing at ? You an expert on minarets as well as Lodges?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0071jtx :D

electionlit
25-03-2010, 02:02 PM
Ross O'Mullane in the 2009 Dublin South by election was running on a similar idea but this time it was via electronic communication rather than referendum...
O'Mullanes leaflet (http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/ross-omullane-united-minds-dublin-south-by-election-2009/)

A similar proposal was put forward by Gerard Dolan in 1997 also in Dublin South, whereby once a month issues would be voted upon at a local level.
Gerard Dolans Leaflet (http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/gerard-dolan-pow-political-organisation-for-work-1997-dublin-south/)
.

Lapsedmethodist
27-03-2010, 01:25 AM
Also the uniform of the KGB. :) Now if you would stop admiring yourself in the mirror and get on with the apology for mixing up minarets with mosques.

Regards...jmcc

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,685896,00.html:p